Replacing Floors in Victorian House

[vGolfer]

I live in Hawthorn in Melbourne and we have an old Victorian home. The floors are pretty dodgy and sagging and bouncing in quite a few places.

Part of the kitchen floor literally collapsed a few weeks ago and I had to pull away the affected floor. I looked underneath and the joists were literally just sitting on a stack of unmortared bricks which were in turn sitting on dirt. Clearance under the house is no more than 50-75cm.

I guess the rest of the house is set up the same way. Joists sitting on a brick pier between the brick walls. The walls of the house are not supporting the floors in any way I don't think.

Anyway, I was wondering whether I could replace the flooring myself. I've done a bit of research into the best methods for these old houses and found some useful diagrams. See http://users.tpg.com.au/vgolf/flooring/flooring.html

Do you guys have any opinions as to what would be the best way to do this (ie which of the methods in the above link). I was thiking either option 1 or 4.

Also, do yo recommend this as a DIY project? It doesn't look that difficult, but I guess I have never done it before so I'm not fully up on all the pitfalls.

The reason I am looking at doing this myself is I doubt I would be able to afford to pay someone to do this for quite a long time, and I'm not sure I can wait!

Thanks in advance.

[namtrak]

You can do this job yourself, but you need to do quite a bit of homework and be prepared to be living in dirt for a long time.

The value of getting it professionally done, is that they will be quick and good (all things being equal)

The value of doing it yourself, is the value of doing it yourself along with the potential cost savings.

Make sure you get quotes for all materials from a variety of places

soil testing, pest control, stumps, concrete, bearers, joists, flooring, nails, screws etc.

If you end up lifting the floor it may be a good time to look at ducting for the heating as well. Even if it is over your budget now, putting in the ducting is relatively cheap and can save some heartache down the track.

how about some photos

Cheers

[vGolfer]

Do you mean photos of the sub floor? I've patched up the kitchen floor now so there's nothing I can really take of the sub floor.

If I was to do it myself, any ideas how long it would take? Is it possiblt to do it one room at a time?

BTW, this really is a great forum!

[craigb]

This is a topic that crops from time to time in this forum.

Try having a look at this thread:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=11905&highlight=replacing+floor

[namtrak]

You can definitely do it - room by room. This increases the cost, because you dont quite get the same margins as buying stuff in bulk. I think the main limitation is your floor height across adjoining rooms. In other words you want to start from a room in the corner of the house and make sure the next room joins on so you can keep heights and levels across the house.

I would set aside a fortnight per room. Consider getting soil testing done as this will influence your decision re: stumps. Also look at pest control when the floors are up. Notwithstanding these two things....

1 day demolition
1 day layout
2 day stumps
1 day bearers
1 day joists
1 day floor
2 days sanding/finishing
1 day skirtings/archs
25 days deciding where furniture goes.

This is a DIY by yourself guide. If you had a mate, handy with tools etc then your probably realistically looking at 4 days.

And I meant photos of your wife.

Kidding. Photos of the floors as they are and then some progress photos etc - always interesting

Cheers

[vGolfer]

Thanks for the help. I'll try and get some photos.

Does anyone have any recommendations and/or advice about where would be the place to source materials for this type of project? Should I just go to Bunnings?

[jimc]

Go to Bunnings if and only if you want to re-mortgage your house.

In Melbourne, go to places like Hudsons Timber and Hardware for good timber or The Tile Importers for really cheap timber but you have to select each and every piece!

Decide on type of flooring before you begin...the thickness of the cover can mean wider spaced joists...if yellow tounge is enough then you will get away with it cheaply....if brushbox or similar is your choice, then be prepared for a shock. example 5.5x4.8 room in yellow tounge = $260 5.5x2.5 hallway in brushbox = $1100

Stumps, bearers and joists are very easy to fit and reasonably cheap if you know how and you could do it room by room as budget/partner allows.

[vGolfer]

I think I will do the front room/study first and see how I go. If I can manage that, I should be able to do the rest of the house...fingers crossed.

The house is pretty much all carpet, except the back which is slate on a concrete slab. I'm thinking of keeping the carpet in the bedrooms (I hate hard floors in bedrooms even with rugs) but having floorboards in the hall and living room.

At the moment, the carpet in the bedrooms seems to be on particle board. For carpet that's no problem I guess. Should I just do the same again to keep costs down a bit?

[echnidna]

It sounds like the problem is that it needs restumping.
So does the flooring itself need replacing?

[vGolfer]

It sounds like the problem is that it needs restumping.
So does the flooring itself need replacing?
The house doesn't seem to have any stumps (is that normal?). Just joists sitting on pretty crappy crumbling brick piers which are sitting straight on top of dirt.

[echnidna]

Just sounds like a previous owner has stacked bricks up instead of restumping properly.

[wombat47]

Re stumps - I think that whether or not a house has stumps depends on when it was built and possibly the location.

My house, in a rural area of NSW, was built in the late 1800's on stone and rubble foundations. Each interior wall is supported on it's own solid foundation (that is, the underfloor support mirror the room layout above). This meant that any manhole only gave access to the area under the room the manhole was in. And the area beneath each room is clear - no stumps. The joists sit on "steps" in the foundation.

The house is on a slope/hill so there is more room under the front of the house, while the back is almost on ground level. The back floors are a bit spongy but the rest are rock solid.

Some years ago, when we decided that power points in all of the rooms might be handy, we made access holes through the foundations from one under floor area to another. Nothing has collapsed - yet. And it allows for at least some ventilation.

We are currently looking for a trained rat/snake/extremely thin person to access the underfloor area at the rear of the house.

[vGolfer]

It's an old Victorian style house, built in about 1905. It seems like the outer brick walls and inner walls don't provide any support for the floors at all. From what I believe that is not uncommon around here. See pic below:

http://users.tpg.com.au/vgolf/flooring/194.gif

Is there any need for stumps for a house like this?

[echnidna]

There were no building regulations in those olden days, construction was left totally to the individual carpenter

In that era the walls were usually built on their own stumps and the floor was supported by separate stumps. It was common to use a bit of log as a stump then.

Brick piers on concrete footings are quite good but they should be laid with mortar.

I've seen a few Victorian era houses that have had loose brick piers stuck in when the original stumps rotted away.

From point of view of restoring the foundations it is usually far easier to use stumps rather than excavate footings for piers when you're working underneath the house. Even if sections of the floor are lifted you can't get machinery inside to dig big footings for piers.

Its a hard heavy job to do yourself so I suggest getting a Pro Restumper to do it.

[vGolfer]

From point of view of restoring the foundations it is usually far easier to use stumps rather than excavate footings for piers when you're working underneath the house. Even if sections of the floor are lifted you can't get machinery inside to dig big footings for piers.

Its a hard heavy job to do yourself so I suggest getting a Pro Restumper to do it.
I guess I was planning to do it room by room by ripping up the entire floor and the sub floor and starting from scratch. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer and is hard work as I can't afford to pay someone to do it all in one go. The floor boards are no good to keep and in many places it is just chip board.

Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me what the spacings for joists and bearers for a floor should be?

[echnidna]

I guess I was planning to do it room by room by ripping up the entire floor and the sub floor and starting from scratch. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer and is hard work as I can't afford to pay someone to do it all in one go. The floor boards are no good to keep and in many places it is just chip board.

Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me what the spacings for joists and bearers for a floor should be?

Lifting the floor and doing a room at a time is a practical way of doing it.
You need to use any chimneys in the house as the reference points for levels as they are likely to be stable.

If the joists are 450mm (18") spaced them 19mm PB is ok (yellowtongue)
if the joists are 600mm (24") spaced you need to use 22mm PB (redtongue?)

If the joists are 100 x 38 (4"x1.5") nominally they should span abouit 1800mm 100 x 75 bearers should span about 1800mm.
Hopefully someone with current framing manuals can fill you in more exactly. Normal roughsawn timber is F8 grade wnen green (but if seasoned it is F14 stress grade).

[vGolfer]

Thanks a lot for all the tips everyone, much appreciated. Any more advice and/or experiences is welcome!

[Pulse]

My house is pretty old too.. around 1900 2 storey double brick. Under the floors I found the old termite eaten stumps and new (1930) dwarf walls built at 1800 spacings. Hence no bearers. The joists were burnt on the outside with solid wooden cores. Scared the cr*p out of me, thought I'd bought a dud!

The dwarf walls are another option but probably more difficult to make.

Does anyone know why burnt wood would be recycled? (no woodchuck jokes please)

Cheers
Pulse

[ajwans]

Sounds alot like my house which is a Victorian in Moonee Ponds. In the
centre of each room there is a brick pier and a main bearer
resting on a notchout in the bluestone foundations and that pier.

The joists sit on the bearer and bottom plates which run along the top
of the foundations.

andy

[vGolfer]

Sounds alot like my house which is a Victorian in Moonee Ponds. In the
centre of each room there is a brick pier and a main bearer
resting on a notchout in the bluestone foundations and that pier.

The joists sit on the bearer and bottom plates which run along the top
of the foundations.

andy
Have you tried to do any work on these yourself?

[Moo73]

Sounds very much like the project I started a little over a month ago. Tore up the floor to replace eaten out bearers and joists, only to discover cracking in the footings (c.1930's).
Advice received indicted that underpinning of footings necessary to prevent further movement/reduce future cracking.
Currently feels like we're digging to China (through clay). Have started the cement pours and hope to be finished the re-pinning in about 3-5 weekends time.
When I finally get to replace the floor (current bare dirt) I'll go for hyspan
I-joists and replace the original 'brick on a lump of concrete' stump with a decent stump. I'm including sub-floor insulation and will then lay a termite treated, yellow tongue floor. Next is to re-line the walls/ceiling with gyprock and finish it with a loverly re-sawn blue gum T+G floor.
I've also got to remember to drill in some ventilation holes for the sub-floor area - currently none!
I think I'll get a professional in to finish the floor - couln't handle the concept of after all this work I bugger about $1700 of nice blue-gum.
Nothing ever seems to be straight forward in this reno game.

[seriph1]

hawthorn, victorian and "limited knowledge/experience without professional advice (no offence intended at all, I have only restumped one home ..... NEVER AGAIN) equals warning bells to me for the following reason:

You own a very high-value home, therefore prospective buyers will likely have the funds to commission a detailed property report. If they see what youre describing it could detract greatly from the value of the home. Not saying you intend to sell now, but this issue will only get bigger over the years.

Flooring Timber selection should be carefully thought through, for the same reasons, as buyers of these homes in this area are usually very particular.

Archicentre is located within a few K's of you and offers a very reasonably priced assessment of such things. In additon, there is Authentic Age

http://www.authenticage.com.au/

in Hawthorn, who are expert in the renovation of Period Homes.

Make sure you learn to lift the existing flooring correctly as it is likely to be 150mm by 22mm Baltic Pine or thicker........ it's being sold currently for $14 per metre at one of the big reno-warehouses in Port Melbourne...... floor lifters are available for hire.

There are quite a few books on this available I believe, though I dont have any.

hope this is at least a little helpful.

[vGolfer]

hawthorn, victorian and "limited knowledge/experience without professional advice (no offence intended at all, I have only restumped one home ..... NEVER AGAIN) equals warning bells to me for the following reason:

You own a very high-value home, therefore prospective buyers will likely have the funds to commission a detailed property report. If they see what youre describing it could detract greatly from the value of the home. Not saying you intend to sell now, but this issue will only get bigger over the years.

Flooring Timber selection should be carefully thought through, for the same reasons, as buyers of these homes in this area are usually very particular.

Archicentre is located within a few K's of you and offers a very reasonably priced assessment of such things. In additon, there is Authentic Age

http://www.authenticage.com.au/

in Hawthorn, who are expert in the renovation of Period Homes.

Make sure you learn to lift the existing flooring correctly as it is likely to be 150mm by 22mm Baltic Pine or thicker........ it's being sold currently for $14 per metre at one of the big reno-warehouses in Port Melbourne...... floor lifters are available for hire.

There are quite a few books on this available I believe, though I dont have any.

hope this is at least a little helpful.
Thanks for that...no offence taken at all.

I do see your point with regard to Hawthorn. I am in a tricky spot as the floors are crap, but I can't really afford to have them done professionally.

[Toymaker Len]

Try the timber auctions for packs of flooring boards, lots of variety, kiln dried etc. half the price of anything else.
I've done lots of floor on concrete footings, brick piers, ant caps, hardwood bearers, hardwood joists, cramp up the floor boards and secret nail em with a nail gun... Easy and very satisfying.
Last but not least...geta pro in to do the finish, then you will be delighted. Sanding is the one thing where mistakes CANNOT be corrected and anyway you will never be able to hire a really high quality professional sanding machine.