The bali 9 - is a death sentence appropriate?

[boban]

On 60 minutes tonight I saw the children who are soon to meet their maker if convicted and could not help stop thinking about it when I saw the son (about 20) crying on his mum's shoulder.

I've got little doubt that they did it for the money and I see the results of drugs more often than most, especially early on in my career, but do these children deserve to die for what is no doubt a stupid decision. But lets be real, at that age who wasn't stupid in some way....some might say that they still are.

What a horrible, horrible business. And I dont think for a moment that this was about their upbringing etc. They met the wrong person, they got greedy, they made the wrong decision.........

What do you think, am I getting soft?

Oh and BTW, I dont think they kill rapists or child molesters. How could drug running be any worse than that?

[Gingermick]

That drug can kill people. And people on it aren't really capable of doing much, however as governemts have decided that they should be able to tell us what we can and cant do to our own bodies, its illegal and therfore really expensive. This is the main cause of the misery associated with tthat drug (money to buy more). And the main cause of the attraction for people to do really stupid things, viz; Carry drugs through countries where they have the death penalty.
Does the punishment fit the crime? After all they are only trying to fill a demand. I think drug laws are most illogical and irrational
I hate drugs, (even from alcohol when I have a hangover) but think they should be all legal or all illegal. (that includes tobacco the biggest killer by 1000 times)
They dont deserve to die.

And I have close family experience

[bitingmidge]

How could drug running be any worse than that?
How could anyone think it's not?

Maybe you ought to get out and work with some of the organisations that provide assistance to the victims, and I'm not just talking about users, many of whom end up dead one way or another.

As far as the question goes, what I think, or what some idiot journo tells us doesn't matter a jot, if the laws of a country have been broken, it's the job of the judiciary in that country to decide.

Of course any conspirators caught in this country should be rounded up and sent there for trial as well.

How arrogent are we becoming as a nation when we think OUR LAWS are better than THEIRS??? Isn't that the sort of behaviour that we gently chide our Seppo friends for......if 160 million people in Indonesia can live with the consequences of dealing in drugs, then that's all the idiots who do have to know.

Cheers,

P (getting the week off to a flying start!)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Gingermick]

[QUOTE=bitingmidge]How could anyone think it's not?

/QUOTE]

A dichhead on the street using drugs as opposed to someone raping my children or even yours?

[Zed]

on the face of it they are guilty - I saw the richard carlton thing last night - I dont like him - he aint a bastion of integrity... more of an ambulance chaser (if he can do with without his suitcase full of pate fio de gras and quail eggs spilling open)

they knew the risks, its all over the AUSTRALIAN passports they were issued ; "In some countries drug related offences can result in the death penalty." In some of thier cases passports meant multiple fake ones (Or so the press says)

$10 million big ones is a $hit pot of corruption - let 'em swing.

now corby.... thats ANOTHER matter.

[Iain]

Having had first hand experience with druggies I know that most are a lost cause, sent several for rehab, all seems to be going well then, bang, don't turn up for a treatment so we head off to home and find them dead on the floor with a syringe hanging out of their arm.
They are also expert liars and will steal from their own family to support their habit.
The dealers generally do not use the drugs and are well aware of the supply and demand in the market place that they have created and as a consequence should be made accountable for their misguided deeds in whatever country they choose to get caught in.
As for innocent fools who claimed not tyo know the consequences, it's plastered everywhere, warning of what the result of the crime will be, and apparantly it's not the first time they went accross for some heroin.
2kg apiece is just a bit too much for recreational use, or one hell of a party.
At the bottom of the pile, I assess the risk when I put money in a parking meter knowing I'm going to be back about 5 minutes too late, it's a gamble and if I'm wrong I get a ticket, this is really not much different but the 'ticket' is a bit stiffer.

[TassieKiwi]

Your son/daughter a loser druggie = "evil wrongdoers - hang'em"

Your normal bulletproof 20-something son/daughter caught trying to make a buck = "Don't hurt my baby/innocent/didn't know etc etc"

Ne'er the twain shall meet.

Bloody awful business, all 'round. There but for the grace of (insert your god)....

[Zed]

someone has an auto signature that is accredited to billy connelly - he says something about the first bloke that milked a cow - did he know what he was doing ? or some such thing... funny in itself, BUT what about the first bloke who tried smack or coke or dope etc... did they know what they were doing and the anticipated results thererof ? has getting out of it been a known thing in early societies ? or just by products of well intentioned actions ? evil things drugs.

[echnidna]

Do the crime - do the time.
Break laws and pay the penalties, which are imposed by the country where the laws broken. If this lot go to the firing squad then all trafficers get the big message.
How many lives and how much misery have been saved by stopping this ring of druggies?

But I think Corby is a different matter and should be released.

[Rusty]

A death sentence is never aproppriate. Morally I don't think revenge and justice are the same thing, and politically I don't trust any government to do anything right; as for giving them the power to kill :eek:.

Ignorance abounds; we take it for granted that people know that drug crimes carry the death penalty in Indonesia, but we've aready established that they were stupid enough to get involved in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised if the dumba$$es thought Bali was part of Australia.

I have to disagree with Midge. I don't think it's arrogant to suggest our laws are better. They are our laws after all, for all their faults, and we don't live under military rule, for which I'm grateful.

The "Bali nine" themselves are proof that the death penalty is not a deterrent. Let them do time in Australia. I don't have first-hand experience, but I don't think it would be any picnic for them.

I have little doubt that there are people involved with this who are evil, and probably should die. But it's not the mules.

Rusty.

[silentC]

Don't think for a minute that the AFP didn't know exactly what they were doing when they tipped off the Indonesians, either. Yes, it should send a message - but the message wont go to the dealers because they have heard it before. It might make it harder to get mules. But then this lot must've been on another planet if they hadn't heard about Chappelle Corby.

Maybe there was some intimidation going on. Death threats against their familes and so on. I expect that will be part of the defence. The Indonesians will want to make an example of them though, so I expect it will be a bullet in the head for each of them. It's just a shame they can't extradite the ones who sent these kids over there and try them under Indonesian law too.

[echnidna]

So the 9 should now be well motivated to finger the Lords.

[DanP]

tonight I saw the children

They are all adults, not children. They are young, yes, but lets not get confused here. They are adults who were fully aware of the penalties of what they were doing. I think they should execute them for being so stupid. How could they think this wouldn't happen if they got caught, considering Corby's case.



What do you think, am I getting soft?

Yep. :p


Oh and BTW, I dont think they kill rapists or child molesters. How could drug running be any worse than that?

A lot of these countries do not have the same taboo's as we do. They do not think rape and child molestation are the heinous crimes that we think they are. That is just a difference in belief.


NOW, what I think about the whole thing. Have some consideraton for the end result of drug smuggling. Death, sickness, increased crime rates, just to name a couple. Most property related crime these days is related to drugs and the procurement of drugs. They are a blight to any society and all efforts should be made to stamp them out completely. If a few stupid, foolish people who get caught smuggling get the death penalty because they don't respect the local laws, then so be it.


but think they should be all legal or all illegal. (that includes tobacco the biggest killer by 1000 times)

You're kidding aren't you? If you banned all drugs you would have to ban alcohol (a depressant, the biggest killer of 18 - 25 year olds.) and coffee (caffiene (stimulant)) too.

[Daddles]

If you banned all drugs you would have to ban ---snip--- and coffee (caffiene (stimulant)) too.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Richard

[echnidna]

Right on Dan.

[Daddles]

Considering the crime and the consequences, the bastards can cop the full weight of Indonesian law and serve it in their prisons, not ours.

Having said that, I don't believe that anyone has the right to take another's life. Therefore, I can't support a death sentence for anyone. However, life in prison, that is, you die there ... eventually, seems appropriate for what these low lives were going to inflict on the end users of those drugs.

Cheers
Richard

[ndru]

Don't think for a minute that the AFP didn't know exactly what they were doing when they tipped off the Indonesians, either. Yes, it should send a message - but the message wont go to the dealers because they have heard it before. It might make it harder to get mules. But then this lot must've been on another planet if they hadn't heard about Chappelle Corby.


Yeah - I'd love to know what the AFP were thinking when they tipped off Indonesian customs. They must[?] have considered this against intercepting and substituting the stuff here and tracing it through the dealer network here. Maybe they weren't confident about tracing it and thought it better to expose them to the Indonesian justice system.

All these recent drug events makes me wonder how effective Indonesian customs really are. Both the Corby and 9 cases lead me to the conclusion that they can't apprehend anyone unless it is ludicrously obvious (Corby) or it is handed to them by another law enforcement agency (the 9). Having said this, I don't know if our own interception process are the best either. Despite our efforts there is still plenty of the white stuff available on our streets. :mad:

[silentC]

However, life in prison, that is, you die there ... eventually, seems appropriate for what these low lives were going to inflict on the end users of those drugs.
The problem is, I don't really think these guys were the ones who were going to do the inflicting. Yes they would have played their part in bringing the stuff into the country - but they're not the ones who paid for it, nor were they the ones who were going to sell it on the streets.

I'm not apologising for them but their real crime was utter stupidity and not thinking things through. I could even believe that they had no idea what they were going to be carrying. I could also believe that they did it because they were told that if they didn't they or their families would be 'disappeared'.

Either way, I can't see them getting off with a prison sentence, especially since they were caught with the stuff taped to their bodies. What's the defence: "I didn't dress myself this morning"?

The sad part is that the real crims are the ones who sent them over there and they probably will get away with it. Even if they do get caught, they'll go to gaol for what, 5 years?

[Christopha]

The schidt the barstards were carrying into OUR country is/was a death sentence for some of OUR people so I don't give a rats' if they get killed for their greed.... shoot the filth! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Gumby]

A death sentence is never aproppriate.

Disagree. Surely you don't think ba$tard$ like Martin Bryant & Juian Knight shouldn't be swinging on the end of a rope?

Child killers etc should be terminated. If they had a referendum, it would win hands down.

[DanP]

I'm with Gumby. As long as there is NO doubt of the identity and guilt of the crook.

Dan

[E. maculata]

Disagree. Surely you don't think ba$tard$ like Martin Bryant & Juian Knight shouldn't be swinging on the end of a rope?

Child killers etc should be terminated. If they had a referendum, it would win hands down.

Logically & philosophically I am very much anti-death penalty, for christians it breaks one of the commandments, for others it's 21st century society, civilised man and all that, there is no coming back if we made an error etc etc.
Having said that, in my gut I would like to see all the reptiles like Bryant and Rock spiders become less than memories just greasy stains.
On intravenous drug use and dealers in such. My family has unfortunately has far too much to do with the fallout of these perveyors in human misery, but I still don't think society initiated murder of another human being does anything positive for us as a people either.

I will echo Tassiekiwis' sentiments with the thought "There but for the grace of God go I"

Bruce C.

[namtrak]

.................Bloody awful business, all 'round. There but for the grace of (insert your god).........

Nice balance

[Rusty]

As an individual I'm not as forgiving as I'd like to be, and if someone close to me was hurt, I'd have a hard time not wishing death on the perpetrator.

As a society though, if we don't keep striving to remain compassionate, we'll backslide, and perhaps be no better than those who have harmed us in the first place.

Perhaps I'm misinformed, but I thought Bryant was a nutcase, not evil. Hating him for killing is like hating a plane for crashing. We maintain aircraft to keep 'em flying, I reckon we should keep a closer eye on our crazy people, too. I'm prepared to pay to keep him locked up. As for Julian Knight, apparently he's not crazy. A bullet might have been a just thing in his case. However, he didn't get one while he was armed, and I don't believe we should kill prisoners.

Thre's no easy answers in my opinion. We should keep trying to be better than them. Love thine enemy. It's a tough call, but all the worthwhile things in life are tough at first. Like freehand sharpening. I can't believe this weather. Bewdiful.

Rusty.

[Wood Borer]

The reason accused 9 accepted a paid trip to Bali, were allegedly paid and attempted to conceal the goods was because they knew the consequences if they were caught.

You don’t get paid big dollars to go to a holiday destination and bring back legal goods because there is no risk involved.

To suggest that they were not aware of the consequences is ridiculous. If they are blind, illiterate and deaf I am sure they would have smelt a rat merely by the relatively large sum of money being offered to carry the stuff.

I feel they did a primitive risk analysis and felt the rewards more than offset the chance of being caught and the permanent penalty. The conclusion they reached (to go ahead with the deal) was made with consideration of all the consequences.

Whether you think the death penalty is too hard or not, it is Indonesian law – the country where they allegedly committed the crime.

If they were carrying drugs and they were able to land them in Australia the effect to local young drug takers would have also been possibly terminal.

If you were the parent of a child who had died of a drug overdose, would you be suggesting the suppliers of the drug be handled with kid gloves?

I think they should be given a fair trial and if they are found guilty they pay the penalty, in this case the death penalty – the penalty they knowingly gambled with and lost. :(

[boban]

Disagree. Surely you don't think ba$tard$ like Martin Bryant & Juian Knight shouldn't be swinging on the end of a rope?

Child killers etc should be terminated. If they had a referendum, it would win hands down.
I'm sure it would win, but if prison is so good for these bastards why is then that they try to kill themselves in prison. My guess, its a better way out for them..... Would 20 years in a hell hole like the Indonesian prisons would be as much a deterent as a death sentence. Maybe???

However if it were my kids they killed, Im not sure I would be so level headed, I'd want revenge too. One reason I guess that victim's familys dont get to chose the punishment.

And to me 20 is still a baby, despite the classification as an adult at 18.

I dont totally disagree with any of the opinions here as its quite easy to point to the damage drugs do so many, but I was saddened by what I saw in spite of it being presented by Richard Carlton.

As far us dictating what is an appropriate law, the world has been doing this for a long time, not just the Seppos, however most dont invade other countries. I have my opinions on various governments and their laws around the world, and in most cases I think ours are better. Not always right but better as a balance on whole. That's why we are a destination for refugees and immigrants alike. Now that might be considered arrogant by some but I'm not alone here.

When I posted this I thought there would be a variety of opinions and one thing that we can be thankful for, is that we can express them freely (subject to pancake comments etc etc).

Now if their parents just bought them a tablesaw.........

[NewLou]

Na.............they'll end up Bringing em home n dealing with em here a bit of powder is not worth a life though that stuff would have caused some deaths once it Hit our shores........All I know is 2 wrongs dont make a right Lock em up!!!..........there only kids!

[MathewA]

I personally doubt they will be executed. I think it's all politics at work. It's all about what it's doing on this forum right now - making everyone talk about it and to shock idiots into not trying it themselves. I think the Aussie authorities informed the indonesian authorities to allow this to play out the way it is. They'll get a jail sentence of some sort. Part of the sentence will be served in Indonesia (just to really scare the crap out of them and anyone else willing to read the book they'll write) and the rest in Aus.


Lets face it Indonesia couldn't give a toss about what Aussies or anyone else is sticking in their arm or if they supplied it - it's all about the tourist dollars. This would be far too costly for Indonesia to execute 9 idiots, guilty or not - tourists would stay away in the thousands if they did.

[E. maculata]

Anyone else remember Chambers & Barlow? :(

[craigb]

Anyone else remember Chambers & Barlow? :(

Yep.

I don't think any Aussies have been pinged with significant amounts of drugs iin Malaysia since then either.

Lets not forget about the Aussie 21 yr old who's on death row in Singapore either. He was transiting through Singapore airport from Vietnam when he was nabbed.

Then you've got the teenagers who were picked up in Hong Kong a few weeks ago. They are looking at life I think.

I mean just how stupid are these people?

[Termite]

I mean just how stupid are these people?
Ask Dan, every mug either thinks he is smarter than the cops or has a foolproof plan.

[Gumby]

Perhaps I'm misinformed, but I thought Bryant was a nutcase, not evil. Hating him for killing is like hating a plane for crashing. Rusty.

Not guilty by reason of insanity doesn't wash with me. It's obvious ! You have to be nuts to do it so how can that be a defence. Insane or not, mistreated as a child or not, and any other excuse - I'm not interested. String the mongrel up.

Give them a long sentence and in 25 years time so goody two shoes goose will be leading a movement to have him released. He'd go before a parole board of acedemic, know-it-all fruit cakes and highly qualified professors who have no concept of the real world.

I've had dealings with the family of one of Bryant's victims and have seen first hand what it does. Nope , absolutely no sympathy from me.

Don't say punishment isn't a deterent - try littering in Singapore and see how you go. Regardless of that though, I don't care about the deterent either - he wouldn't be able to do it again if he was gone.

[Gingermick]

alcohol (a depressant, the biggest killer of 18 - 25 year olds.) .Do you see a lot of alcohol poisoning and overdose? While we're on this topic, lets limit engine capacity for that age group to 1000cc and 4 wheels

[boban]

Do you see a lot of alcohol poisining and overdose? While we're on this topic, lets limit engine capacity for that age group to 1000cc and 4 wheels
That would be one quick quad bike dont you think?

[RETIRED]

Keep this one on topic please.

[ozwinner]

Keep this one on topic please.
So I cant reply then??

Al :D

[Gingermick]

Don't say punishment isn't a deterent -.
Deterrents don't work with drugs. Doesn't mater what the penalty, as long as there is demand there will be supply.

[Grunt]

Killing people, beating them, locking them up for 100 years, shooting their parents for having them or any other draconian measures will not stop drugs coming into this country. No matter how much money we spend on policing and border patrols, drugs will continue to come into the country. There is simply way too much money in it. The people who make the money are rarely the ones who get caught. It is almost always the desperate, the unfortunate or the plain stupid ones who are put into the position of highest risk. Even if the “Mr Big”s get caught there are another 3 lining up behind them to take their place.

If we actually start to intercept 90% of the illicit drugs that are destined for this country, the people who make the money will simply increase there shipments into Australia. Heroin, cocaine, marijuana etc. simply grows on trees (well plants anyway). It costs so little to produce they can afford to do this with very little impact on supply.

We need to control the importation, manufacture and distribution of all the currently illicit drugs. Take the money out of the drug trade and you will have no drug trade.

People will still take drugs no matter if they are legal or illegal. It doesn’t matter if people know that the drug is bad for them they will still become users of it. Have a look at tobacco.

[Gingermick]

Its the financial cost of drugs that damage society so much.
We need to get people off drugs for good through their own cognition rather than fear of punishment.

[Sturdee]

How arrogent are we becoming as a nation when we think OUR LAWS are better than THEIRS??? Isn't that the sort of behaviour that we gently chide our Seppo friends for......if 160 million people in Indonesia can live with the consequences of dealing in drugs, then that's all the idiots who do have to know.



Fully agree with that, and it is not only Indonesia it is also other Asian countries that have the same laws. They are also well publicised.

The other thing I have heard a lot on the radio is that their system of justice is 3rd rate unlike ours because they are not presumed innocent until proven guilty. Their system of justice being based on the Code Napoleon was introduced by the Dutch and is the same as in use in most European countries.

Under this system the Bali 9, having been arrested and charged by the police, are automatically, in the eyes of their law, guilty unless they can prove their innocence. The court case is there to give them the opportunity to prove their innocence. Which I don't think they can.

In view of the evidence against them I the death penalty in this particular case is the most appropriate.


Peter.

[reybec]

i myself think the death penalty is too barbaric
because i cannot believe anyone whether told to by their government or not has a right to take another persons life
but they would have known the risk & chose to take it & now have to suffer the consequences of their actions which is a probable death sentence.

i think a more appropriate punishment would be a long prison term in the country the crime was committed in not a prisoner exchange program.

the ones i feel sorry for are their families

[aussiecolector]

I'm glad the stuff was stoped there and didn,t get far enough to be pushed onto my kids.

Of cause the feds knew what they were doing. They are probably getting sick of spending hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars of taxpayers money finding drug runners. Then that again getting them convicted in court then starting over in a few years time when they get out of jail.

Another isue is if they are aware of someone braking the law in another country it is their duty to inform the authorities in that country. Just as we would expect police in another country to inform our police if they had any information about what was happing here.

I dont have a strong feeling about what should hapen to them, so long as they are not aloud to smuggle any more drugs. Its getting expencive to keep people in jail over here about $50 000 per year.

[Gingermick]

[QUOTE=Gumby]Disagree. Surely you don't think ba$tard$ like Martin Bryant & Juian Knight shouldn't be swinging on the end of a rope?QUOTE]

And if you execute just 1 innocent person?
The rest of your life in jail is a much bigger punishment imo

[echnidna]

Bryant and Knight are NOT innocent people

[Gingermick]

Thats not the point

[Toggy]

I feel sorry for the families. The greedy stupid Bali 9 knew what they doing. They took the chance and got caught.

Not forgetting that they did multiple trips as well. This wasn't a first off.

Ken

[E. maculata]

The last person executed in Australia was?
and the controversy surrounding his conviction and subsequent execution was?







Bruce C
Being a right sh^tstirrer in the quest to make us question our values

[Rusty]

Heroin is harmless...until you ingest it. My point being that at the end of the day it's the user who is harming themselves. The Bali nine are no threat to me, and if my kids grow up happy and respecting themselves, then they're safe from that threat too. Remove contaminants and unknown potency and it becomes even less of a risk. Legalise it and you take organised crime out of the picture. As long as it's for sale, though, you'll never take profit out of the picture. Just shift it to the legit drug companies. I'm not scared of drugs. I'm ****scared of the type of animals that profit from them though.

Again on the DP being a deterrent, these guys may simply have weighed the odds between getting killed by the authorities or killed by someone in the trade. (Not suggesting that this is an excuse).

I don't think the world is ready for full legalisation of all drugs. Yet. We need to understand drug abuse and how to raise individuals who don't need to use that ****. But there is also a point where we have to let people make their own decisions. Legalisation, or something approaching it, is the only just way of sparing the rest of us from the impact of those decisions.

And Gumby, please don't think I am apologising for anyone like Bryant or Knight. At least, I hope I'm not and I'll have a good think about it.
But revenge is bad for the spirit (IMO) and bad for the health of the community. And, seriously, would you let the Tasweigians make decisions like that!!:rolleyes:

Rusty.

P.S. If was a semantics nazi then, of course a death penalty would be appropriate, under Indonesian law...

[boban]

The last person executed in Australia was?
and the controversy surrounding his conviction and subsequent execution was?
Bruce C
Being a right sh^tstirrer in the quest to make us question our values
Some guy in '64 I think... but the question is are we any worse off not executing those we think are truly evil. I dont know the answer to that but every time I watch a movie about a monster(s) on death row, I cant help but feel bad (thats the best I can describe it). I felt the same last night from the perspective of a parent.

What about all those yanks on death row who were freed when DNA tests proved them innocent. Sorry I cant be too specific but I thought the number was over 100. I think that's extraordinary.

The law doesn't always get it right and juries especially dont.

[Grunt]

Yes it is a real possibility that Schapelle Corby will be executed. With the information that I've been fed by the media, I believe that she is innocent. You can't take back an execution once you've given one.

[graemet]

"Never gamble more than you are prepared to lose" as my old daddy used to say. They knew the stakes, I don't think they will be allowed to welch on the bet. My fervent hope is that the bloke who didn't have anything on him but who seems to be in charge of the group doesn't get a lighter sentence than the dopey mules.
Not many cheers,
Graeme

[maglite]

Playing Devils Advocate:
It seems to me that the media has believed the stories these people have told with out a moments hesitation.
No one is available nor will there be,to repudiate such claims that they're families were threatened. How would we know that this is the truth and not just a scheme that was hatched in the event that they got caught.
What if there is no "MR BIGS" and this crew are the "MR BIGS", but would have us believe that they are simple mules?
Let us remember that the price of the product overseas is far different from the supposed street value over here.All we have heard about is the weight or the street value, not the actual cost of the unrefined product.
The point is that nobody really knows if these guys are telling the truth or not...how can we?
Do we simply take their word for it.
If they hadnt got caught, they would be back here savouring the fruits of their labours and i suspect, wouldnt have given 2 s#*^ts about the end users.
Let them have their day in court and if found guilty suffer the consequences.

[Sturdee]

The last person executed in Australia was?
and the controversy surrounding his conviction and subsequent execution was?


I think that was Ryan in Victoria .

The controversy was only agitated by the press and the bleeding hearts brigade who think there always is an excuse for the anti social behaviour of hardened murderers like Bryant and Knight.

As a result the silent majority got screwed again with the abolition of the death penalty.


Peter.

[johnc]

Ronald Ryan was the last bloke hung in Victoria, and the implication that the execution had a political bias. Certainly the premier Mr Bolte was said to favour an execution prior to an election as it showed they where tough on crime. I do feel genuinely sorry for Miss Corby especially as the circumstances make her story believable and compelling. We forget that our system is innocent unless proven guilty and courts do not generally find you innocent merely that there was sufficient evidence to find you guilty. The Indonesian system is similar to some European models, you are guilty unless you can prove innocence.

I had a bit to do with early release prisoners working on something I was involved in years ago, there seemed to be a general view that don't do the crime if you can't do the time. They knew the risks and penalties and seemed prepared to accept that risk. I still don't believe a humane society should accept the death penalty as it can't be undone, however there are some bastards that have forever lost their right to be part of the outside world again and can rot in prison where they belong. They include nutters like Bryant and Julian Knight amongst other sadistic killers.

JohnC

[E. maculata]

yep Ron Ryan for apparently killing a prison guard during an escape attempt, other controversy besides the election chestbeating was since to get the angle of entry he would've need to be fairly tall like 24-30 feet tall or possibly be another guard whom may or maynoy have accidentally shot the wrong guy, so we killed Ryan in retribution 1967.
QLD (YES THIS SURPRISED ME TOO)abolished the death penalty in 1922!
Victoria was last domino to go 1975 legislation was passed.

Trying to be fair minded in this media hype, got me thinking maybe this guy they're calling Mr Big is the one who said to the organisers "no way I'm not doing it" do we have any proof he isn't besides a smurky look and a joking mannerism, which also could be because he thought Gee am I glad I didn't go through with it".
Now within myself I reckon he's as guilty as sin but isn't this scenario plausable, but what the heck do I know about it I'm just a guy a thousand miles away who knows some stuff about trees, and not much else

[journeyman Mick]

Different countries have different laws, and while we may not agree with them I think you would be foolish to flout them and then expect immunity.

Here's a diiferent take: why did the AFP tip off their Balinese counterparts instead of arresting the 9 when they landed in Australia? Arresting them here would have put feathers in their caps, I can't see them handing over all those brownie points for no reason. Obviously there's some behind the scenes politics happening here.

What if some senior figures on our side approached the Indonesians and said,
"Look, you know and I know that Schappelle is innocent, I mean why would you take marijuana from Australia to Bali? It's cheaper and easier to buy over there and the quantity is a bit over the top for personal use. If you find her guilty there's going to be a hell of a lot of tourists rethinking their travel plans to Bali worried that their luggage might be tampered with. And there's all this aid we're giving you, a lot of peope back here will be rethinking that. Now obviously some of your chaps are going to lose some face if you find her guilty, and we know that's really hard for Asians to do, so as a sweetener for your law enforcement people who will lose face over this we'll give you nine traffickers thast our boys and girls have been tracking and they're carrying heroin and lots of it. What do you reckon, do we have a deal?"

Of course if Schappelle is found guilty (from what I've read, I don't think she is) then this theory will be shot down in flames.

While we're on the subject, I don't believe that prohibition is the answer. The US tried it with alcohol and it just made the gangsters rich. Unfortunately you won't stop people using it and as long as the demend is there people will find a way to supply it. Restrict the supply and demand and price go up. I believe that by suppling users in a govenrment controlled program would put the traffickers out of business and in the long term would cost our community less. But I don't think the voting public is ready for this so no government will be game to introduce it until they knew they couold do so and still remain in power.

Having said this, I still wouldn't feel comfortable about actually making the drugs available myself, hell I won't even buy a packet of ciggies for anyone.

Mick

[Peter57]

I'm with Mick on this one (first bit at least). Given the way Asian's value keeping face this is a good way to allow Corby to recieve a lesser sentence and still look like the Indonesian's are trying to stamp out drug trafficking.

What worries me is that the authorities were able to magically find the supplier who had been elusive for years. And he was shot during the arrest. A cynic would make someting of this.

But one last thought. We are basing our discussion and position on what we have been fed by the media. They are only motivated by what sells a paper. Lindy Chamberlain is a great example of that. I don't know if she killed Azaria or not but I do know that the media found her guilty and she was jailed. Some years later the media decided it was a raw deal and the free Lindy campaign started..... Bingo she's out of jail.

A sad day for Australia I reckon.

As for the 9. The warnings are everywhere. They knew the penalty and now they are probably going too pay for their stupidity with their lives. It doesn't seem fair but it's the law.

[DanP]

What worries me is that the authorities were able to magically find the supplier who had been elusive for years. And he was shot during the arrest. A cynic would make someting of this.


Call me a cynic. Witnesses stated that they saw him being quietly led to the car and taken away in handcuffs. Then the next thing you know he turns up dead. I reckon there might be something sus there.


My point being that at the end of the day it's the user who is harming themselves. The Bali nine are no threat to me, and if my kids grow up happy and respecting themselves, then they're safe from that threat too.

Who are you trying to kid? Tell that to the victims of the burglary's and armed robberies and thefts that are perpetrated in the pursuit of cash to fund the habit. The Bali 9 and every other smuggler are a threat to every person in this country, not just for those who get themselves addicted. To me they are all the scum of the Earth and I'm not at all bothered that they might cop the death penalty.

Dan

[Wood Borer]

When I had faith in our legal system I would have thought what DanP said was cold, draconian, callous etc, unfortunately I agree with him.

When the druggies take a compassionate softly approach when they don’t burgle our houses, when they don’t kill little old ladies for $15 then I will strongly support taking a softly softly approach.

Druggies have been given an opportunity to revise their burglary habits after we have given them the soft approaches – rehabilitation, smack on the wrist (excuse the pun), minor fines (less than speeding fines).

These measures haven’t worked. Druggies couldn’t care less about anyone but themselves.

If a druggy broke into my shed, knowing the cops won’t turn up in a hurry, knowing if they do get caught they will be let off, knowing the insurance companies will try to get out of paying me …….. I could be easily tempted to take measures myself that would put the druggy out of his/her pain of withdrawal, assist them not producing offspring with a habit, keeping my tools and keeping the neighbourhood safe.

What would my penalty be? Would the drug world be campaigning for me to be treated lightly?

[Gingermick]

These measures haven’t worked.
Laws and threats aren't going to stop it. Woodwork might!
Government sanctioned murder is no better than any other kind.

[Zed]

heres the answer :

make everything legal, including guns. do what you want so long as you dont affect anyone else. if you do they have the right to shoot you. sure there'd be a lot of dead people but as in the case of the melb crime syndicates and the rest of 'em so long as they are only after each other then thats fine by me, just makes it easier for the coppers and increases the revenue of the funeral homes....

theres no easy answer, govts always play catchup, crims always are one step ahead... until they get caught. innocents always suffer - is that a reason not to chase down the guilty ? I think not - look at WW2; how many innocents suffered ?

I for one would volunteer to be the hangman of mr bryant or his ilk, it would bother me a bit if I was the one that offed someone that was eventually found innocent, but less so than the thought that mr bryant could walk one day.

opinions - like bums; everyones got one.

[bitingmidge]

heres the answer :

make everything legal, including guns. do what you want so long as you dont affect anyone else. if you do they have the right to shoot you. sure there'd be a lot of dead people
Isn't that the system in the land of the free???

That's why it's also called the home of the brave.

P
:rolleyes:

[Rusty]

Who are you trying to kid? Tell that to the victims of the burglary's and armed robberies and thefts that are perpetrated in the pursuit of cash to fund the habit. The Bali 9 and every other smuggler are a threat to every person in this country, not just for those who get themselves addicted. To me they are all the scum of the Earth and I'm not at all bothered that they might cop the death penalty.

Dan
I'd like to point out that I was referring to the act of using drugs, when I said that the Bali 9 posed no threat to me, not the corollary crimes of drug addiction, which I maintain are largely due to prohibition. Point well taken, however.

Rusty.

[DanP]

Even if drugs were not prohibited, they wouldn't be free. The related crime may lessen but unless it is free it wont stop.

Dan

[maglite]

In line with this argument, it would be interesting how they fared in the Netherlands.
Was drug related crime higher before or after they legalised the vast majority of drugs and had the supply regulated by the govt.

Im simply curious....or is that curiously simple:D

Cheers
Steve

[Lucas]

Do i think these nine should be put to death
Yes
it's that simple
they knew what would happen if they got caught
show what happened to them then move on
no need to show these 9 on the news all the time

what do they want Me to feel sorry for them
keep dreaming

[Grunt]

The judicial system in any country has flaws. Some more than others. If any of the nine are innocent but are found guilty and put to death then it will be a travesty of justice that cannot be rectified.

If Scheppelle Corby is found guilty the judges could sentence her to death. This outcome is a real possibility. I am led, by the media, to believe that she is innocent. This is the problem with capitol punishment. Once it is applied, it is impossible to says "oops, sorry about that Chief".

Lock the 9 up by all means. Don't let them out. Just don't kill them.

[Gingermick]

Even if drugs were not prohibited, they wouldn't be free. The related crime may lessen but unless it is free it wont stop.

Dan
But were it not prohibited then a gram dropped in price from $600 (or how ever much it is), to $10, there would probably be an awful lot of OD's.
Dead junkies mean no drug related crime.

[Rusty]

Dead junkies mean no drug related crime
They also mean alot of wasted public resources, let alone greiving families.
Junkies usually still have people that love them. Legalisation alone is not the answer. If I knew what the answer was, I'd share it.

BTW, a few years ago heroin did come down in price to about $15.00 a hit. And you're right, GM, there was a spate of overdoses.

Rusty.

[echnidna]

Got a vague idea the Pom's trialled legal heroin for registered addicts back in the 50's or 60's. Maybe jow or BJ or another pom might recall something

[DanP]

Bring back the Taliban I say. While they were in power there was almost no heroin to be had. Should have seen the queues at the chemists for methadone :D It's amazing how much they want to get off it when they can't get it. :rolleyes:

[echnidna]

Bring back the Taliban I say. :rolleyes:

If they had the power now there wouldn't be any debate.
They would have used 9 bullets and immediately eliminated the trial and due legal process.

[DanP]

A very efficient system then! :D

[Gingermick]

Bring back the Taliban I say. While they were in power there was almost no heroin to be had. :rolleyes:
If you say so

[kiwigeo]

Bring back the Taliban I say. While they were in power there was almost no heroin to be had. Should have seen the queues at the chemists for methadone :D It's amazing how much they want to get off it when they can't get it. :rolleyes:

Might interest you to know that most of the funding for the Taliban's activities came from supplying the western world with opium from their poppy fields....

[Sturdee]

They would have used 9 bullets and immediately eliminated the trial and due legal process.


I believe that if this happened in China the relatives of those shot would be sent the bill for the cost of the bullet.


Peter.

[Groggy]

The replies here are based on what has come through the media, who are in it for the money, and from officials in Indonesia who are endemically corrupt. We just don't know the truth.

That aside, lots of valid points have been made. To me, if they are actually guilty (as distinct from proven guilty) and not coerced by threats to self or family, then the law of the country should be applied.

To those who have a soft view, the drug thefts, burglaries, side - crimes, corruption etc caused by these people really do not make me want to pity them. A slap on the wrist that sees them go back looking for the 'easy bucks' puts the problem back on us. I pity their families, but this is outweighed by the pity I have for those who will be 'hooked' by their activities in the future, the crimes committed to pay for their product, the medical bills to manage the entire sordid deal.

Maybe we should freeze them and store them till a cure is found for lazy, get rich quick criminally inclined people with no regard for others.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but the DanPs of this world are not paid enough to have to wade through the mess created by this mob.

[Grunt]

BTW, a few years ago heroin did come down in price to about $15.00 a hit. And you're right, GM, there was a spate of overdoses.



The reason that people OD on heroin is because the potency of the drug is so variable. Sometimes its 5% pure others it's 50% pure, sometimes it's more. A junkie can inject the same volume of drug into their arm one time and get high and the next time get dead. If the manufacture and distribution was controlled in some way almost no one would die from heroin. Heroin isn't all that bad for you, except the fact that it's addictive and if you have too much you stop breathing. It is not a poison like tobacco and alcohol.

My choice would be to treat the drug problem as a health issue and not a law inforcement problem. It's been illegal for a very long time and people still use drugs. Prohibition plainly doesn't work.


Bring back the Taliban I say. While they were in power there was almost no heroin to be had

Pitty about the women who had acid chucked in their face for not wearing a veil and those who weren't pious enough who were put to death.

[Lucas]

Grunt

My choice would be to treat the drug problem as a health issue and not a law inforcement problem. It's been illegal for a very long time and people still use drugs. Prohibition plainly doesn't work
I have a idea that if people dealing heroine in Australia were put to death like in bali then it might just drop the amount of dealers

[ernknot]

It will never go away because there are too many officials and big business people involved. Otherwise how would it get in??
I mean to say, last time I came back from O/S and brought an extra bottle of booze in I was really given a hard time even though I said I would pay the duty. I got siht load of gibberish and crap etc. about border control and whatever. In the mean time I suspect a whole lot of drugs got through because I was being "entertained" by our officials. Why is it that people who work for the Immigration, Customs and security departments really belive we are all a bunch of dumb arses ( we ,the reviled public)
If we didn't travel they would be running efficiently and would not be hindered by those accursed travellers. Help - get me off my soap box!

[echnidna]

"Heroin isn't all that bad for you, except the fact that it's addictive and if you have too much you stop breathing. It is not a poison like tobacco"

Heroin alters thought processes making interaction with normal people hazardous.
How many tobacco users will kill you just to get their own way.

[Grunt]

How many tobacco users will kill you just to get their own way.


Maybe none but I'm not sure junkies are particularly prone to violence. They'll certainly steal from there own mothers to feed their habit. Alcohol alters the mind, the interactions drunk people can be hazardous, causes people to become violent and kill people.

I'm not saying that heroin is a good thing. I just think that we need to try to solve the problem in a different way. What we are doing isn't working. There is a great deal of hypocracy in the way we treat different drugs.


I have a idea that if people dealing heroine in Australia were put to death like in bali then it might just drop the amount of dealers

Probably not. They kill poachers in Kenya without trial and it doesn't stop them. In US they execute many murderers but there are still thousands of murders a year.

If we made smoking illegal we'd have a percentage of the smoking population that would be forced to steal and lie to get their fix. Some criminals would become very rich feeding the smokies habit.

[RETIRED]

Please keep to the topic heading.

[Zed]

the taliban in afganistan didnt stop opium one hoot, they made a very small pretence of destroying some small plots of opium for show but the fact is it was hard currency into the country. they didnt want thier people using smack but they really didnt have any issue with sending it out of the country or growing it.

it must be true I saw it on telly.

on the teev they showed one opium farmer who had a small amount of his plot run over by some army trucks - it was clearly obvious that the rest of his plot was ok - as was the blokes across the road. did anyone else see this on the tube ? I cant remember the show but i think it was foreign correspondant or something like that...

some of you mention that you feel for the families of the nine left behind - thats admirable and noble but the fact remains they did the wrong thing a number of times (some of 'em...) and they got caught red handed! now they have to pay. unfortunatly for them its a tad worse than a fine for speeding.

this case is only really intersting becuase of the scale and the timing - remember the warren fellows, paul hayward and william sinclair - they got done in thailand , then there was the blokes who got hung in 1988 (?) i singapore (?). ferkin idiots the lot of 'em. this happens all the time - if it was only one or 2 of 'em they'd barely get a mention.

What I find interesting is the 9 idiots are squealing like inbred farmers at a hog farm in kansas to try to save thier bacons... hopefully a few high rollers will get the chop out of this.

What I reckon happened is (remember this is conjecture and has no semblance to what actually happened) is that that lame ***** kingpin got his mates/family at the passport office to run off some spares and he's managed to get some geese to go on a freebie holiday for the price of being mules. IDIOTS!

the MOST interesting thing to me is the coke bust at sydney airport - is chaleppe corby innocent or what ???????? even blind freddy could see it now.... I hope the indoneseans see reason about her now - i truly pity her - shes an innocent in the wrong place - in my eyes its worse for her because some aussie bastard set her up but hasnt got the balls to let evertyone know - the shameless bastards will let her rot instead.

next time i fly I'll be making a little printout that says "I Zed hereby hand over my luggage to the airport weenies, they have inspected my bags in my presence when I checked in and this here signature of thiers on my bit of paper agrees theres no pot in it - if some shows up it wasnt me but someone using my bag..." I'll get them to sign it, I'll sign it and a random witness or a passing securoty guard - we'll all keep a copy and i'mm off the hook.

again - IDIOTS!

[Rusty]

IDIOTS!Agreed. But it doesn't make it appropriate to kill them. Start killing stupid people and you'll end up with one person left, giving themselves an I.Q. test to decide what to do with the last bullet.

Lock 'em up, be glad that you've evolved past "an eye for an eye", and get on with the business of living as good a life as you can.

Rus.

[Gingermick]

I have a idea that if people dealing heroine in Australia were put to death like in bali then it might just drop the amount of dealers
It may dissuade a few for a bit then the price would go up because people want it and more dealers would come out.
You cannot stop this behavior. Try to convince people to stop using drugs. Its not going to happen. (As that would include alcohol, tobacco, coffee, etc) Hence my earlier post, either ban them all or legalise them all.
I know that most heroin addicts would prefer not to steal or rob. Much too much of a hassle but as its so expensive.
But having seen the pain withdrawl causes one is very conflicted. I don't condone stealing or anything like that at all. But you feel for someone in pain.
You may say that, "He caused it himself" (Withdrawl) but that is not human nature. If a very obese person has a heart attack we dont say "he doesn't deserve sympathy, he did it to himself" or do we?
If someone is hurt though their own stupidity do they deserve sympathy?

[DanP]

the taliban in afganistan didnt stop opium one hoot,


I can only speak for what I saw on the street and While the Taliban were in control there was very little heroin on the street and what little there was was cut to hell. ie: very little heroin, lots of other white powder and horse tranq. Most druggies were using Temazepam or similar drugs. All the OD's happened when the asians started importing high quality heroin and selling it in 80% pure caps. The druggies were so used to the heavily cut variety that they couldn't handle the pure stuff. My comments re the Taliban were a bit tongue in cheek so you lot can unknot your knickers. :p

Dan

[maglite]

Jeez, it seems that bleeding hearts and do gooders all have an opinion on what we should do with these peanuts.
Do anything you like as long as you dont kill them...lock them away, let them spend their time in a cushy OZ jail instead.
Seriously, where is the deterrent here?
Most states in Australia spend more money on trying to reform peanuts that get their kicks out of a needle than they do on mental health sufferers.
These people have a real claim to those dollars due to conditions beyond the own control....those other peanuts are in control of their own destiny and they do it for kicks in the first place and then realise that they are addicted.
Well, whoopty bloody do, not only do they and their bleeding heart social worker friends want the general public to sympathise with a condition that is there simply due to their own misadventure, they insist on a more lenient punishment because of it.
When are people in this country going to be asked or expected to be accountable for their actions?

[Grunt]

We spend sh!tloads on smokers health. We will be spending more and more on people with type 2 diabetes. People die from these things which are completely in there control to prevent. Stop smoking and eat less fat and more fruit and veg respectively. Let's stop spending money on the health of these individuals. Save Australia a bundle of tax dollars. Round them up and shove them in a detention centre and let them die. Or better still kill'em when they start to cost us money.

[Sturdee]

We will be spending more and more on people with type 2 diabetes. People die from these things which are completely in there control to prevent. Stop smoking and eat less fat and more fruit and veg respectively. Let's stop spending money on the health of these individuals.

Although of topic the above statement is rubbish.

For the record my wife has had type 1 diabetes for 30 years, my nephew has had type 1 for 5 years and my mother died from complications arising from her type 2 diabetes so I do know a little bit about it and unfortunately they still have no definate ideas what causes it.

Current research is that it may be by environtal triggers caused by certain vegetables in those genetically predisposed to it, but much more research is needed.

We should be spending more not less on them, may be from savings made by executing criminals rather than keeping them in jail. May not be a deterrent but a hell of a lot cheaper than keeping criminals alive when they, by their own actions, have forfeited that right.


Peter.

[Gingermick]

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. (As much as I hate religion, its a good line)
The very idea that the possession of a plant (nature) can be illegal, ( and cost your life) is surely the most absurd law (Death penalty or not). (One can understand trying to save flora for heritage value by limiting access to it etc.) Because drugs fetch such a high price people see easy money.
If people forfeited their life for greed the board of NAB would have to be shot. After announcing record profit they sack 2000 staff.
Why are illegal drugs illegal? Perhaps is H were available and cheap, pharmaceutical companies would lose market share of effective pain killing meds and heaps of $
Are they to protect us? Apart from doing a peese poor job, that comes from the same rabid christian paternalism that says I can't kill myself if I want to.
As humans are innately greedy creatures people will continue to profit from the black market, as long as it exists.
(War on drugs is as absurd as war on terrorism (read hate))

[beejay1]

OOHH! I just knew from the offset that this post would bring an awful lot out.
What a great mix of soapbox opinion has been proffered up over what is a view basically on the death penalty and those for and against.
This is debate that will be with us for ever and a day and my own view is that if a crime is committed and the offender is caught and found guilty of that crime then he/she pays the penalty for that crime according to the laws of that country. Not something i necessarily agree with and something which often turns my stomach particularly in countries where the fabric of the law is often woven from some ancient religeous beliefs or customs which I am not endeavouring to introduce into this thread. However like it or not a country's laws are there for a reason and laws must be enforced. Some countries accept the need to ammend laws and tailor them to suit the changing societies they protect and pursue, others dont and often their refusal or reluctance to do so can be justifiably explained.
The Bali lot will probably get life and no doubt at a politically appropriate moment they will be pardoned or released into Australian custody to serve out their sentence. If they are executed, would I think it wrong, to be honest I really dont know although as i write this I would be more in favour of a life sentence and any proceeds from press interviews or books no matter when being passed to drug rehab programmes.

Have to agree with Maglites comments and liked the no frills deliveryhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[Grunt]

We should be spending more not less on them, may be from savings made by executing criminals rather than keeping them in jail. May not be a deterrent but a hell of a lot cheaper than keeping criminals alive when they, by their own actions, have forfeited that right.


In the US is costs more to execute someone than it does to keep them in jail for life. The argument that capital punishment saves the tax payer is flawed.

[DanP]

In the US is costs more to execute someone than it does to keep them in jail for life. The argument that capital punishment saves the tax payer is flawed.


I'm not disputing but I can't see how that is possible. Unless you take into account the countless years it takes to get them to the chair for all the appeals and stays of execution etc, in which case I still can't see how it cost more than keeping someone in gaol. Martin Bryant costs us about $75,000 a year to keep in gaol, when your average Joe will never see that amount of money in a year in his/her life.

Dan

[DanP]

The very idea that the possession of a plant (nature) can be illegal, ( and cost your life) is surely the most absurd law

Mick,

The law is there because of the effect of the drug, not because it is a particular type of plant or whatever. If you want to see why, visit a mental institution and ask one of the nurses what they think of the effects of cannabis. There aren't too many long term users who don't have some 'issues'.

Dan

[Grunt]

Unless you take into account the countless years it takes to get them to the chair for all the appeals and stays of execution etc,

This is exactly the reason for the cost. Lawyers are damned exepensive. There isn't any figures for this in Australia but in the US this is the case. $3 or $4 million dollars an execution and by shear economies of scale an inmate costs arounf $40k per year.



The law is there because of the effect of the drug, not because it is a particular type of plant or whatever. If you want to see why, visit a mental institution and ask one of the nurses what they think of the effects of cannabis. There aren't too many long term users who don't have some 'issues'.



Cannabis, heroin, tobacco and alchohol (in excess) are all bad for you. Why do we allow people to smoke tobacco and not cannabis? Why isn't being an alcoholic illegal? Any argument that says that heroin or cannabis should be illegal can be applied to tobacco and alchohol. Smoking kills thousands of Australians each year. Domestic violence is almost entirely attributable to alcohol.

Why do we treat users of illicit drugs as criminals when it's really a health problem. Sure people who take up heroin or cannibis are stupid but so are the millions of Australians who smoke and the millions of Australians who get wasted on grog each week.

If took the approach that you could only get heroin on perscription then it would put the drug dealers out of business. It would take the money out of heroin. The quality and quantity could be maintained there by reducing the ODs to those who want to top themselves. Syringes could be supplied with every hit that have auto retracting needles to reduce the risk of blood borne diseases being transmitted from user to user and the the general public.

The above will have problems for sure but we'd have fewer deaths and less drug associated crime. We've been fighting drugs like a war for my entire life and it hasn't been very successful. I think it's time we tried something else.

[adrian]

Mick,

The law is there because of the effect of the drug, not because it is a particular type of plant or whatever. If you want to see why, visit a mental institution and ask one of the nurses what they think of the effects of cannabis. There aren't too many long term users who don't have some 'issues'.

Dan
The connection between mental conditions and cannabis is a tentative one. It's a question of which came first , the chicken or the egg. I have known literally hundreds of cannabis users in my 52 years and I can confidently say that all who abused it to the point where it became an essential part of their life had a prior history of some form of psychological problem. In the three most striking cases it was sexual abuse as children.
For antidrug campaigners to link cannabis to the onset of mental disorders is flat out wrong. If they dug a little deeper than their lazy statistical analysis they would find a predisposition for all forms of chemical abuse among people with even the mildest of psychological problems.
We have a rather imperfect world and we just don't know how to deal with harmful drugs.
Take the case of a young pregnant woman who smokes. If you were to get a cocktail of all the carcinogens contained in cigarette smoke and use a hypodermic to inject a baby on a daily basis with the same doses you would be gaoled for quite a while. Yet it's perfectly legal to inject those drugs through the placenta. At least she knows that when the baby is born she can keep it quiet with nicotine patches rather than a dummy.
Heroine should be made freely available to registered addicts. Many people express horror at that suggestion claiming that many new addicts will be created. How moronic is it to suggest that people are going to become heroine addicts so they can get free heroine. It just doesn't add up.
Anyone with any knowledge of heroine knows that if distribution and quality was controlled by government, addicts would be able to lead close to a normal life and we wouldn't all have to put bars on our windows to keep them away from our TV and video players.

[RETIRED]

This thread is digressing again.

Everyone has their own opinion and I think if the thread remains open it is going to go from debate to argument.