Let's turn this into a chair

[Thumbthumper]

This arrived from the big auction site today ......

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A cedar railback (can never have enough of these :U) from the late 1800's.

Original (pickled) finish under the grime, sawn off tenons in all the mortices, big nails through the leg mortices :~.

I'll need to build some rails with angled tenons, and a seat. The back section is wobbly, so I'll need to disassemble it, clean out the joints, and reglue it.

Stay tuned and I'll post some pics while I rebuild it.

[Horsecroft88]

Subscribed as I will enjoy seeing this chair come back to life. I have two wooden seat base cedar rail backs in nice condition, plus another set of 6 but with upholstered seat bases also in nice condition. Must admit to being a sucker for cedar antique furniture and especially if it has nice turned legs :).

All the best with this project. I have just finished (as posted on my thread) the quick cleaning up and repolishing of an elm cottage chair.

[Thumbthumper]

Subscribed as I will enjoy seeing this chair come back to life. I have two wooden seat base cedar rail backs in nice condition, plus another set of 6 but with upholstered seat bases also in nice condition. Must admit to being a sucker for cedar antique furniture and especially if it has nice turned legs :).

All the best with this project. I have just finished (as posted on my thread) the quick cleaning up and repolishing of an elm cottage chair.

I have a cedar problem .... there, I said it :U
I don't want help though :no:

I saw your cottage chair, very nice and useful.

I'll be starting on the chair tomorrow. I'll disassemble the back section, clean out the joints, remove nails (if possible), and start cleaning the parts.
Looking forward to it.

[Horsecroft88]

Very well done, and doesn't it feel good to have got that off your chest.

I too am a cedarholic, I have to confess to having a total of 14 cedar chairs (railbacks, balloon backs and others), also 5 tables, 2 chest of drawers, 3 boxes and 2 cupboards. Also all the joinery eg. doors, architraves, reveals etc at my early country house are cedar (9 doors in total) etc. Do I have a problem :no: :doh::o

Thanks re the compliment re my chair.

How are you off for cedar for any repairs, I have a range of bits and pieces collected over the years. Sing out if you need anything and I can see if I may be able to help. How are you planning on cleaning it up, as I am sure you don't want it to end up looking too new and perfect, but rather to retain its history. Will also be interested how you redo the joints.

[Thumbthumper]

How are you off for cedar for any repairs, I have a range of bits and pieces collected over the years. Sing out if you need anything and I can see if I may be able to help. How are you planning on cleaning it up, as I am sure you don't want it to end up looking too new and perfect, but rather to retain its history. Will also be interested how you redo the joints.

Thanks for your offer ... I've got plenty of cedar bits and pieces for my restorations. It's always hard to find that perfect 'bit' though. The organization of the bits is the hardest part.

I'm planning on just cleaning the dirt off and reactivating the original polish. Sugar soap or Tricleanium works well for washing.
I don't sand cedar as you're sure to remove most of the character.
Wash and polish.

For the joints I'll try steaming/soaking/heating the solid joints apart to get to the loose joints.
I'll be using hide glue to reassemble.

Stay tuned as I'll post WIP pics.

[Horsecroft88]

Not a problem and good to know you have supplies. I guess it is the sort of thing that happens if you are interested in antiques and/or especially woodie projects to work on. I know all too well what you mean re finding the right piece though.

Good, I am glad to hear your approach, it sounds fine to me. Would you re-shellac finish if the old finish is too far gone, for I guess that would be my approach.

Will be most interested to see how cleaning the old broken joints goes, as I have a couple more such projects down the track that I might need to similarly tackle as per your thinking.

My next project which I will post on my thread is about to start. A mahagony side table.

[Thumbthumper]

Would you re-shellac finish if the old finish is too far gone, for I guess that would be my approach.


I never try to get rid of all the old shellac. The beauty of shellac is that it can be re-activated.
If after cleaning, it looks dry, I'll give it a coat of neat shellac before polishing.

[Thumbthumper]

A bit of shed time this morning .....

Looks like there's some nice Cedar in this chair

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The front legs are a bit of a mess. I removed the nail and cleaned out the mortice.
I'll probably splice in a section of timber to strengthen the area around the mortice.

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The nail holes were filled with putty. I dug that out and squared up the holes to add tapered plugs.
There's about 4 of these to do.

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I was able to remove the back with a wiggle. The sliding dovetails in the back were in pretty good condition.
There was an old chip at the bottom of the dovetail on the left side. I'll fix this, not really for cosmetic reasons, but because you need all the strength that you can get when you fit the back.

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I chiseled a flat surface across the chip, glued in a block of Cedar, and chiseled it flush.

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Three of the four joints in the back section were very tight. I decided against knocking it all apart.
If you break the tenons off the splat it's a bit of a nightmare DAMHIKT :doh:
The loose joint was in the splat. I was able to splay the joint apart using a clamp as a spreader, and work in plenty of hide glue.

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Next job is to clean all the parts (easier when disassembled).
I'll start building the rails and dimensioning the seat soon.

[Horsecroft88]

Lovely work so far on the chair, and I can now see how this will all come together. The cedar too is going come up beautifully. I have to admit, that bringing a piece like this one back together is so satisfying where all it was prior to that was somewhat expensive firewood !! (:no: )

I went through this sort of thing with the small Kauri/Blackwood and Huon hall table I restored previously, looking at it now, I am glad I took the trouble to do so.

[mattocks]

I have two of these chairs that originally belonged to my grandparents. The story was that they came out of a hotel in morpeth n.s.w. They both have wooden seats but it can be seen that originally they had woven cane seats.
The thing is I always thought they were called "spade back cottage chairs". I hadn't heard them called "rail back" so i was wondering if both names are correct and they are just variants of the same thing.
One of the chairs was in pieces with one of the legs broken in two with a small piece missing. I repaired it in a similar method to the piece missing out of your chair. I didn't take any photos of the job unfortunately but have left them largely in the finished state that I received them despite my wife wanting me to re-polish them.
When you said you would re-activate the shellac can you tell me how you do this as it might be appropriate to do my chairs.
Thanks for posting this restoration, very interesting and I'll be watching and learning.

Cheers

Frank

[Horsecroft88]

I too have seen such chairs varyingly referred to as both spade and rail back chairs. I really am unclear, despite having been involved in collecting and restoring antiques for more than 20 years. In saying that, and possibly I am wrong a spade back chair has a curved end on the top back rest while a rail back has a squared end such as this chair.

Also and again I can't confirm but I think that a rail back chair has a wooden seat base while a spade back has a padded seat base.

However, as I say that could be complete bollocks !! might have to try googling or alternatively talk to a couple of dealers I know, who I trust. One used to be an antique auction chap, so hopefully he might know.

Re Thumbthumpers comment regarding re-activating the shellac finish, and I stand corrected, my take on this, is that this refers to the light keying back of the original finish and re-applying fresh shellac, from which one can thereafter cut back with 0000 steel wool and bees wax polish thereafter. That is at least how I have done this sort of thing. However, I will say from my experience this can be a risky process, as sometimes you can get a bad reaction between old and new shellac, such that the old finish will bubble up making it impossible to get a good finish. I have generally found this to be a problem with furniture say from the 1900-1930s vintage.

As a rule, my approach has been to take the old shellac finish right back (that is strip it off if it is too far gone and dried out), and thereafter lightly scuff the surface back with 320-400 grade paper before re-polishing. But perhaps that is just me and my approach. I guess in the end it is up to each of us to decide how or what we like.

[Thumbthumper]

They are known as spade back, rail back or Trafalgar chairs.
Cottage generally refers to spindle chairs. Kangaroo chairs are often referred to as cottage chairs.

If a piece of furniture has it's original polish, it makes it so much easier to refinish. The grain is essentially pre-filled.
A lot of shellac sits deep within the Cedar. You won't get rid of it all unless you remove a lot of timber.

Clean the furniture (dirt).
Smooth it down with steel wool and metho. This gets rid of any proud pickling, scratches in the polish, and the last bit of dirt within the polish.
If it's really dry or mostly back down to bare timber, give it a coat of neat shellac. Then give it a whisk with steel wool before finishing.
If it's not really dry and there's a good amount of polish, start ragging on shellac with a bit of BLO.
Rub rub rub until your hand hurts:C
Keep ragging on the oil/shellac mix daily until the grain is filled and the wood feels smooth.
Use a hard wax as the final finish.

This is only really for chairs and other utilitarian furniture. French polishing is a different technique altogether. I'll leave that for another day:U

[mattocks]

Thanks for that tubthumper,
The only question I have from that is I thought if you rubbed with steel wool and metho you would effectively remove all the shellac. Metho being what you use to liquify the shellac.
Maybe I've being going to hard with that in the past and its just to be done a bit lightly.
Cheers

Frank

[Thumbthumper]

Thanks for that tubthumper,
The only question I have from that is I thought if you rubbed with steel wool and metho you would effectively remove all the shellac. Metho being what you use to liquify the shellac.
Maybe I've being going to hard with that in the past and its just to be done a bit lightly.
Cheers

Frank

Hi Frank,

That's exactly right. You don't scrub real hard.
A light touch is all that's needed.

[Thumbthumper]

Found some time to do a few more fiddly things.

Cleaned the old hide glue from the male dovetails on the back section.

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I sorted through my pile of timber to find some rails and seat bottom.
The old table top will make a good seat. Ripped to about 10mm on the bandsaw.
I will have to join 2 pieces.

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I'm using this chair to get all the angles and overall dimensions

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I made a mock-up the get the shoulder and tenon angles right. I can use this to transfer the tenon layout to the side rails.

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After a bit of tweaking with a chisel and shoulder plane, the first tenon is done.
Pic 2 shows the fit.
Pic 3 is the completed side rails. I still have to cut the tenons on the front rail.

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Shouldn't take too long now.

Cheers all ...

[Thumbthumper]

It's getting close to actually being a chair :U

Finished Cedar plugs on the front legs.

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All the components (minus the seat) have now had the polish smoothed out. I washed a bit of the old dirty polish over the new bits of Cedar to blend the colour.

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I used a chisel, gouge, hand drill, and a brace countersink to make some pocket screw holes.
A lot of rail back chairs just had the seat nailed onto the rails. I considered doing this, but I didn't have enough old period nails.
The other rail back (pictured above) that I have, has original pocket screws.

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Glue up time.
The back is now on the back section. The front legs and rail are together.
Tomorrow I'll glue up the side rails.

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[Wongo]

I find this thread inspirational. Nice work.

[Horsecroft88]

Very impressive work Thumbthumper, and so readily shows how well cedar responds to some TLC.

A quick question and hopefully not a dumb one, out of curiosity, where do you get your hide glue from and just how suitable is it to this sort of work (suspect I know the answer to this). The other and possibly equally dumb question is why to use a hide glue rather than a modern epoxy resin type glue (again I suspect I know the answer to this).

Am sure looking to see the finished product, including how you join the base, given if I understood it you are going to have to join two sections cut down from an old table top.

[Thumbthumper]

Very impressive work Thumbthumper, and so readily shows how well cedar responds to some TLC.

A quick question and hopefully not a dumb one, out of curiosity, where do you get your hide glue from and just how suitable is it to this sort of work (suspect I know the answer to this). The other and possibly equally dumb question is why to use a hide glue rather than a modern epoxy resin type glue (again I suspect I know the answer to this).

Am sure looking to see the finished product, including how you join the base, given if I understood it you are going to have to join two sections cut down from an old table top.

The last batch of hide glue I bought was from this forum's sponsor. I use the pearl type.

HIDE GLUE - Joiners Pearl Glue (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/hide.htm)

Hide glue is fantastic stuff. It's got instant grab if you're sticking glue blocks. You can get old joints apart with heat/water. It can be mixed for some slip if you're veneering. It doesn't mess with finishes. I can be glued to itself. I could go on, but read up about it. Once you use it, you won't go back :U

I've seen 160 year old furniture with good strong joints that I believe are original. I'm not sure if any of the modern glues would last this long (I suppose only time will tell).
The next person to restore your furniture (in 200 years time) will thank you. The goes the same for the shellac finish.

I'm also a bit of a traditionalist. I use traditional tools/techniques/finishes/hardware and glues. The bandsaw is the only power tool that I use regularly.
I like the whole sympathetic approach.

For the seat, I would prefer to use a single piece, but I don't have a wide enough board that is about 10mm. I do have wide boards 25mm thick, but my bandsaw isn't big enough to re-saw boards that wide. The piece of table top that I had, fitted though the bandsaw, and sawed into two boards about 10mm thick. There will only be one join, and seeing as how they'll be out of the same board, the colour match will be perfect.

I'll start work on the seat, after I finish the glue-up.

[Thumbthumper]

I find this thread inspirational. Nice work.

Thanks Wongo.

I just hope it doesn't push the price of Cedar bits and pieces up :q

[Horsecroft88]

Thanks for the advice re the glue Thumbthumper, that is really most helpful and timely. I too like traditional methods and finishes, hence sought out such advice 20 something years ago as to how I should finish the joinery in my home, shellac of course being the answer. And I am still using it, and won't use anything else, apart from tung oil on the floor and bench tops etc.

I know it is slow, pedantic, but the finish, feel and look of it is what I love. I so dislike modern plastic finishes. Hence therefore to find out that there is an equivlent choice for glues, is the right choice for me. I will get onto this ASAP.

I understand what you say being a traditionalist with your tools as well; though for house construction/restoration purposes I have to admit to owning both a drop saw and a circular saw, but I wouldn't use them for furniture. Similarly I have an orbital sander, electric drills etc, but again not to be used for furniture restoration projects, well maybe the drill for specific purposes only. I do use a heat gun to get paint off, but thereafter everything is done by hand.

What you say about the seat base sounds fine to me. With one of my two wooden base cedar bar backs it has a one piece base, the other is a two piece joined approximately in the middle. I really like the look of these chairs and they seem to suit both my early houses, as do my other antiques. I am not really a modern furniture person.

[Thumbthumper]

I got the chair frame glued up this morning.

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The old table top has some nice Cedar in it. The face of the seat will be the old top.
Ready made character :2tsup:.

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I worked out a way to avoid the old screw holes.
I roughly cut out a square.

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Jointing the boards.

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And the glue up.

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Next job is to start shaping the seat.

[mattocks]

The chair frame looks great tubthumper.
Can't wait to see it finished

Cheers

Frank

[Thumbthumper]

I've finished shaping the seat base.

Here it is all dirty.

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And after a good scrub with metho.
There's not much original polish in this old table top.

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Next, I'll be screwing down the base, giving the whole chair a polish.

Stand by for the glamour shots soon :U

[Horsecroft88]

Really looking forward to completion of this seat, as are you I would expect. A real credit to your restoration work to bring this back to life, and it will be a pleasure to both look at and sit on. I enjoy mine.

[Thumbthumper]

Finished !

I still need to give it a buff with some wax, but it's moving into the house tonight.
I ragged on a finish based on about 1 cup shellac, 2 tbsp BLO and 1/2 tbsp pure gum turps. I added the turps because I wanted a lower sheen.

We've come from this ....

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To this ....

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Thanks to all who had a look.
Time to find another project :U

[Horsecroft88]

A magnificent result and definitely worth while spending the time and some materials on rescuing one more chair from our past. I can well imagine this is a worthy addition to your home. Enjoy the results.

What next ??

My table project similarly is closing in on completion. I ended up filling the crack with a dark cedar putty and re-shellacing the top numerous times. Have just cut it back and wax polished it. Will talk a little more about mine over on my thread.

Look forward to what ever you tackle next. Always learning from others here.

[Christos]

This is very impressive work.

[burraboy]

Lovely job Tt! Good to see someone who doesn't muck about too!

[floody_85]

Wow! That's fantastic. What an amazing job. Congrats

[mattocks]

beautiful work thumbthumper.
great to watch and learn.