Euthanasia

[Scott]

Very interesting article:

'They were very happy': Belgian twin brothers choose euthanasia rather than blindness (http://www.theage.com.au/world/they-were-very-happy-belgian-twin-brothers-choose-euthanasia-rather-than-blindness-20130114-2conp.html)

In my view, sanity has prevailed here. Why cant we have similar laws here?

[FenceFurniture]

Well, they had a choice, and they exercised their right. I can't see how it's anyone else's business.

I do wonder about the effect that it might have on the doctors performing it though.

[_fly_]

why do they keep saying Holland has it..

Holland is not a county for a start.
Second, the netherlands does not have legal Euthanasia. It just turns a blind eye to it, but it is not legal.

My grandmother was knocked off by a doctor in 1958.
He came in, told her she didn't need to suffer anymore, Asked my mother to go make a cup of tea, and then he injected her.
When mum came back he told her she was dead.

[Big Shed]

Sorry, but the Netherlands does have legislation to control euthanasia

Euthanasia in the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands)

[BobL]

It's interesting where one would draw the line.
What about if someone thinks they are too fat, or scared of woodworkers, or just had a bad hair day?

[_fly_]

"The procedures codified in the law had been a convention of the Dutch medical community for over twenty years."

So in 2002 they did it, Aus have been saying for 30 years that they had it and thats why they should have it here. They have been saying Netherlands had it for more than 10 years.....

As I said my GM got knocked off in 1958, It just had a blind eye turned towards it seeing the same doc signed the death certs...

Probably good now as I expect you need to sign something.

My GM wasn't even asked, the doc took it upon himself to do it.

[FenceFurniture]

My GM wasn't even asked, the doc took it upon himself to do it.

In which case it is murder, straight up and down. Although, you'd never know if your GM hadn't made an arrangement with the doctor.

[artme]

In which case it is murder, straight up and down. Although, you'd never know if your GM hadn't made an arrangement with the doctor.

I agree totally!!

[Big Shed]

Doctors "assisting" patients to peacefully pass away can and does occur in any country, including Australia, even today.

It was probably more common in 1958 as doctors held a different place in our society and were not subject to the same sort of scrutiny (and litigation) that they are subject to today.

That sort of thing happening is hardly related to euthanasia.

May I say that I have observed the Dutch system at close quarters as my wife's cousin opted for euthanasia and the checks and balances built in to the Dutch system certainly precluded any of (let's knock off mum/dad/ aunty for their inheritance) arguments.

There is a lot of uninformed debate about euthanasia in this country and as long as the major churches are against it and hold sway over our politicians it will never be legalised here, it would need a consience vote for a start and neither Liberal or Labor will agree to that in the foreseeable future.

Apparenlty it is quite OK to be kind to one's pet and help it out of its' misery, but that same choice could not possibly be extended to humans.

[Ray153]

Whilst not wishing to diminish the magnitude of losing ones sight, I am not sure how a doctor can justify certifying that as unbearable pain therefore allowing him to legally euthanize them? It was tantamount to murder/manslaughter in my view.

To me that is just wrong, yes, the brothers were going to suffer a medical problem but I cannot see how it was going to cause them increasing pain to the point where their life became untenable. People lose their sight all the time and manage very well.

Please don't get me wrong, I think euthanasia should be a viable option in certain circumstances, I just don't believe that the circumstances the brothers felt they were going to be in at some point in the future should constitute valid legal grounds that allows another to assist them end their lives.

[FenceFurniture]

To me that is just wrong, yes, the brothers were going to suffer a medical problem but I cannot see how it was going to cause them increasing pain to the point where their life became untenable. People lose their sight all the time and manage very well.

Don't forget that they were deaf from birth as well. Being deaf and blind would be quite something. Their pain was going to be mental pain, and that's every bit as real as physical pain.

[Ray153]

Don't forget that they were deaf from birth as well. Being deaf and blind would be quite something. Their pain was going to be mental pain, and that's every bit as real as physical pain.

I'm not disputing that, I agree that it would be quite something and certainly just as real as physical pain. I am not convinced it could meet the definition of unbearable pain.

Certainly a huge change in their lives and those who provide a level of support and care for them. Same as for those who suffer paralysis from a collision or disease. Still not over the threshold of unbearable pain in my mind, certainly not to the point where a doctor can end the life of another without consequence.

[Bushmiller]

Are suicide and euthanasia the same thing? If not where do they differ? Is it that euthanasia includes the cooperation of a least one other person.

Returning to basics, why is suicide frowned upon and illegal? Is it a hangover from times past when it was very important that everybody survived and contributed to the well-being of a community?

I don't really have a problem with anybody deciding their own destiny if it does not bring hardship on their family and friends. We allow people to do all kinds of destructive things to their bodies while they live and hardly pass comment. What things? Drinking, smoking, drugs even fast food could all be considered an abomination.

Why do we get so upset about dying (that's more rhetorical than literal) after all none of us are going to get out alive? The fact is that few of us, in the West at any rate, really understand about dying. We are taught at painstaking length on how to live our lives, but dying is almost a taboo subject made more mystical by laws.

Dying happens: To all of us: As we get older it happens to more of us around us. I find it absurd that euthanasia is illegal. Naturally it needs checks.

I have a friend whose nineteen year old son recently died of a brain tumour. It was an aggressive cancer, but the boy was one of the human races' treasures. I think it took about three months from go to woe. On his last day the boy asked his father why it was taking so long. By this stage he was down to 38kg from his normal pre-cancerous 75Kg.

My friend spoke to the doctor, who said leave it with me...............

Regards
Paul

[_fly_]

why is suicide frowned upon and illegal?

Suicide is not illegal, only attempted suicide.

[powderpost]

Returning to basics, why is suicide frowned upon and illegal?
If it really is illegal, I have to wonder who would be charged for the "offence"?
Jim

[Avery]

Doctors "assisting" patients to peacefully pass away can and does occur in any country, including Australia, even today.

It was probably more common in 1958 as doctors held a different place in our society and were not subject to the same sort of scrutiny (and litigation) that they are subject to today.

That sort of thing happening is hardly related to euthanasia.

May I say that I have observed the Dutch system at close quarters as my wife's cousin opted for euthanasia and the checks and balances built in to the Dutch system certainly precluded any of (let's knock off mum/dad/ aunty for their inheritance) arguments.

There is a lot of uninformed debate about euthanasia in this country and as long as the major churches are against it and hold sway over our politicians it will never be legalised here, it would need a consience vote for a start and neither Liberal or Labor will agree to that in the foreseeable future.

Apparenlty it is quite OK to be kind to one's pet and help it out of its' misery, but that same choice could not possibly be extended to humans.




A couple of years ago, well 2010 actually, my father inlaw had a fall at the local supermarket. He was taken to the local public hospital and diagnosed with a probable broken hip and broken shoulder, the diagnoses was "best guess" as x-rays and cat scans were pretty useless because of the state of his bones. He was in considerable pain. The specialist medico, specialty in geriatric medicine, said that there was really nothing to do other than keep him comfortable.

At the time he was a few months short of his 103rd birthday.

Over the next couple of weeks he begged the staff to finish it. He tried to bribe nurses to inject him with something or give him extra pills.. he was totally and utterly past the point of wanting to continue. His mind at this time was still as fresh and sharp as ever. That made it all the worse because he new and understood everything that was going on.

After a couple of weeks we moved him to a private hospital and started making arrangements for nursing home care. Up until the time of his fall, he lived alone, in his own home with ever increasing amounts of care from family and professional help. he absolutely hated the idea of not going home. He could have paid for nursing at home but in his condition it was just not feasible.

He could do nothing for himself. He could not perform any bodily function without help. he just lay in bed, in pain. A perfectly sound mind in a 103 year old worn out body. His vision was almost gone , his hearing was almost gone.

After he had been in the private hospital for about 4 weeks , things were getting worse. he hated the whole situation and begged every day for someone to end it. he asked me a couple of times to buy something on the streets or to just knock him on the head.

One morning we arrived at the hospital and he was engaged in a very loud argument with his doctor and a couple of nurses. he was demanding that they end it. He was demanding that it was his right. The doctor could do nothing but say "I'm a doctor, i can't do that."

I spoke to the doctor outside the room, he was actually in tears, he said he just did not know what to do. He left to continue his rounds.

15 minutes later he came back to me and asked if FIL was still in pain. I said of course he was, he is always in pain. The Doc said, I am going to increase his medication to get rid of his pain "Is that OK?" he said it very firmly. I said "If you think that it will make him comfortable and will be in his best interest,You should go ahead."

The next morning, my very best friend of the last 40 years was gone. Quietly , peacfully, in no pain.

[chambezio]

A merciful end. Avery, I feel for you and the FIL. My mother was in care at 62 years of age, she had dementia. she took another 10 years of care before she was taken while having a stroke. She did not know anyone from about 64 and was sedated a lot of the time to keep her calm. I am ashamed to say I just couldn't bring myself to visit her. There was this frail woman resembling someone who could have been my mother but in my mind it wasn't her. Not the woman who raised 5 kids to be descent adults.
Then my dad ended up with dementia. He had a number of slight strokes that robbed him of speech and his ability to know who came to visit him. He was that way for 10 odd years until the morphine helped him drift off. He was 93-his twin brother went the year before.
I can hear both Mum and Dad saying "If I were to end up like that knock me on the head!" They both mentioned it long before the dementia had taken hold.
Dignity of life must come in to play in these cases.
We had a dear old dog that we all loved. every winter was getting worse for him with his rheumatism so at the age of 17 we took him to the vet. It was what seemed to be a merciful end for him.
I think I am in favour of euthanasia.

[Chippin Away]

The problem with such ways of thinking is where do you draw the line or where does it end. So many argue along esoteric and or philosophical lines (basically wishy washy bullshite) that there is no real standard to measure against (certainly heard enough of it in this thread)...

You can see the evolution of these societal "values" (I use that word very loosely) in that they've now killed people simply because they were going to go blind and they're now pushing to allow minors to off themselves... Again where does it end. Next they'll be saying anyone over 75 is taking up space... and then it will be 70... These sorts of trends in society aren't slippery slopes they're cliffs. Many mock the laws that make suicide illegal mostly because they're obtuse... Those laws are society's and government's making a stand for what a civilised society should stands for.

[FenceFurniture]

Waiting.

[Bushmiller]

why is suicide frowned upon and illegal?

Suicide is not illegal, only attempted suicide.

Fly

I think both are illegal, but the legal system has experienced extreme difficulty in prosecuting the successful perpetrators. Even the law, unsatisfactory that it is, does not pursue the draconian lengths of "whipping through the fleet" (where the sentence was completed irrespective of whether the prisoner had passed on). It may well be an economic constraint rather than a legal or moral one.

In regard to the unsuccessful attempts, I think it is normally regarded as a cry for help. I would be interested to know if anybody has actually been prosecuted.

Either way the law is an a**e on this one. There is absolutely no point in any law that is, in practical terms, unenforceable.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

The problem with such ways of thinking is where do you draw the line or where does it end. So many argue along esoteric and or philosophical lines (basically wishy washy bullshite) that there is no real standard to measure against (certainly heard enough of it in this thread)...

You can see the evolution of these societal "values" (I use that word very loosely) in that they've now killed people simply because they were going to go blind and they're now pushing to allow minors to off themselves... Again where does it end. Next they'll be saying anyone over 75 is taking up space... and then it will be 70... These sorts of trends in society aren't slippery slopes they're cliffs. Many mock the laws that make suicide illegal mostly because they're obtuse... Those laws are society's and government's making a stand for what a civilised society should stands for.

Chippin

I think it is a little misleading to quote specific instances of cases where possibly we don't have the full background information. Yes, I know I did exactly the same thing, except that I was familiar with the scenario.

In your second statement, it seems to me that the wishes of the terminally ill and those in chronic pain are being confused with a government mentality along the lines of Orwell's 1984. I don't really think we are quite at the stage where the government is going to execute those over a certain age. At least, at your threshold of 70 it is starting to get uncomfortably close for my personal comfort :) .

We are talking about:

1. A person choosing to die while in full control of their mental powers.
2. Relatives making a decision on behalf of a terminally ill patient experiencing extreme pain.

There is nothing esoteric, philosophical, insidious or even difficult about this. The government doesn't come into it, except to allow it to take place under guidelines. The fact is it already happens and has done for many years unofficially and of course, as it stands, illegally.

Regards
Paul

[Ray153]

I am only referring to the law in Victoria. The "crime" of suicide was abolished years ago and with it the offence of attempted suicide. What remains an offence is to be party to a suicide pact, i.e. attempt suicide and survive. That will bring a charge of manslaughter.

Those who attempt suicide in Victoria can be detained under section 10 of the Mental Health Act and conveyed to hospital or taken before a medical practitioner. It is procedural, not a means of bringing criminal charges.

[Bushmiller]

I am only referring to the law in Victoria. The "crime" of suicide was abolished years ago and with it the offence of attempted suicide. What remains an offence is to be party to a suicide pact, i.e. attempt suicide and survive. That will bring a charge of manslaughter.

Those who attempt suicide in Victoria can be detained under section 10 of the Mental Health Act and conveyed to hospital or taken before a medical practitioner. It is procedural, not a means of bringing criminal charges.

Thanks Ray

In Victoria the punishment is hidden (a bit like the penalty for bigamy - two wives :wink:) Institutionalism; Much worse than death. I'm mildly surprised that Victoria hasn't invoked "Catch 22" on this one.

Apologies. This is a serious subject :- .

Regards
Paul

[Scott]

Interesting debate so far, I'm glad I started the discussion. :stirthepot:

Let me give you a scenario, which I've had to deal with many times as a nurse:

Your relative is on the ward and is deteriorating very slowly and in a significant amount of pain. They're being fed through a tube in their nose which goes to their stomach. Conservatively, medical staff expect your relative to last for at least 2-3 months with ongoing medical treatment. They're in a great deal of pain, are incontinent and rely on nurses to shower them. The doctors have approached you and have asked to withdraw treatment and make your relative comfortable. Expected time before they pass away: 2-3 days.

Scenario 1: The family agree to the withdrawal of treatment. All tubes and lines are removed, the patient is allowed to eat and drink as they like and they have received some very generous analgesia for their pain. The patient passes away peacefully 48 hours later.

Scenario 2: The family are horrified at the thought that medical staff suggested that treatment be withdrawn. The patient lingers for another 8 weeks and eventually an artery in their stomach bursts and they drown in their own blood. Before their passing the patient repeatedly asks not to have anything done to them however their family insist on all active treatment. The patient develops bed sores from the constant diarrhoea, constantly complains about the pain and is constantly ferried around the hospital from all the tests they have to endure.

IMHO everyone should have an advanced care plan in respect to their end of life care. I would absolutely detest my family going against my wishes. I would like to die with dignity and free of pain. Euthanasia, in a very diluted form, does occur in every hospital everyday though. Legalising euthanasia would assist the moral dilemma Doctors and Nurses face every day.

[jimbur]

Scott, I suspect many of us have had to go through the same scenario as relatives. The question, "should we resuscitate if .." has to be faced by those of us who are seeing their parents in extreme dementia etc.
It's not pleasant watching someone slowly die and lose all semblance of the person they were. My grandmother said, "It's a bugger waiting to die".
To demean the whole debate as being the thin end of the wedge or even worse as, "wishy washy bullshite", is to deny our humanity and the true nature of our existence.
ps should have said that I hope the caring professions soon have the moral dilemma removed or at least eased.

[Avery]

Scott,

Your experience and views on this are worth are worth shouting out loud. Rational, reasonable and compassionate.

Thank you.

[Sturdee]

We are talking about:

1. A person choosing to die while in full control of their mental powers.
2. Relatives making a decision on behalf of a terminally ill patient experiencing extreme pain.

There is nothing esoteric, philosophical, insidious or even difficult about this. The government doesn't come into it, except to allow it to take place under guidelines. The fact is it already happens and has done for many years unofficially and of course, as it stands, illegally.

Regards
Paul

:2tsup::2tsup:

[Enfield Guy]

My experience.

My father had carried an Abdominal Aortic Aneurism for some years. His doctor had said, privately to myself, that he had not seen one of this size in a living individual.

All of the research that I had done indicated a relatively quick passing when the time came. Minutes were spoken of.

Of course, my old man, being the hard and defiant bugger that he was, wouldn't have it that way.

One early evening he was taken to hospital suffering from severe pain in the kidney area of his lower back. I got a call in the early hours of the morning to come up to the hospital. Upon arriving I found my father with tears streaming down his cheeks in obvious agony.

I asked them to take the pain away, and they did.

Given the inevitability of the result, and believe me once it starts there is no stopping it, I'm fairly sure that it was the law that stopped the carers from doing the right thing. It seems they needed the instruction to do what was right.

That happened nearly 3 years ago now. I am sad that he is not here now. I'm pleased they took the pain away. I'm a little sad that they did not do it sooner.

The staff in our hospitals do a marvellous job. Some times hard decisions need to be made. I am in favour of ending life with dignity.

Cheers

[Scott]

As a matter of interest to some, here's an Australian website which we (most hospitals) refer patients and their families to:

Respecting Patient Choices (http://www.respectingpatientchoices.org.au) (Advanced Care Planning).

Let me share a little story with you from my nursing days in Intensive Care. I will always find this man the most inspirational I've EVER looked after as a nurse. In fact I'll remember him for the rest of my life. In short he was a VERY fit man who had a push bike accident and broke his neck. In Intensive Care he asked to have all support turned off. BUT, in an act of extreme selflessness, he asked for his organs to be donated. This man was perfectly lucid and able to communicate his every wish. His family respected his wishes and made a website in his honour:

In memory of Robert Graham (http://robertgraham2007.blogspot.com.au)

RIP Robert :)