adhesive for timber flooring on yellowtongue

[jlamplough]

Hi all,

I have 18mm H/W flooring (80mm wide) which I am laying on yellowtongue. I am planning on glueing and secret nailing through to the joists below.

Many places (including this forum) recommend Bastik Ultrastick, where as others just say to use a liquid nails or other construction adhesive.

Is there a big difference? (If so what?)

If I use the Bostik Ultrastick, how do I apply it? I'd like to put a "wiggle" down each board, but someone was saying I have to trowel it onto the yellowtongue which I'd prefer not to have to do.

Thanks for your advice,

Regards,
Jeremy.

[glock40sw]

G'day Jeremy.

Do you want a good job?...
If so, Use Bostik Ultraset. Full stop!!!!
Do not even consider so called"Construction Adhesives"
Ultraset is designed for glueing timber floors. The others are general purpose adhesives.

Or you can use Sikaflex T55 (I think) flooring adhesive.

Forget Selley's Liquid nails for flooring. It is nowhere near as good as the other 2.

You can trowel or wiggle. Please yourself which.

Talk to a pro floor layer.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor.
Grafton

[jlamplough]

If not troweling, is there a special gun for application?

If troweling, how much/thick to use?

cheers,
Jeremy.

[glock40sw]

For wiggle...buy the ultraset in a sausage and wiggle about 4" waves.

For trowel...buy the ultraset in a drum and 3mm notched trowel

[journeyman Mick]

Jeremy,
There is a special gun to use with the sausages, about $50 for a cheapie, $150 for a good'un. I've got a good one but don't use it for flooring as it's easier and less messy (cause the Ultraset is very runny) to just poke a hole in the end of the sausage and squirt it out.
For trowelling use a notched trowel (this will automatically give you the correct coverage), from memory you need a 3mm notched trowel.

Mick

Oops, looks like Trevor beat me to it. :rolleyes:

[Dan_574]

Exactly what the others said, don't even consider liquid nails or other equivalents. The timber moves with the weather and the glue needs to as well. Buy the gun for the bostik sausage and nothings easier. Laying the floors is the easy part, apart from a sore back from bending over using the secret nail gun. Get a professional to sand and finish your floors. I built my house last year and layed 100m2 of karri natural grade. It came up really well.

[Gaza]

buy the gun. it saves u chucking the stuff every where and its messy. Try a good hardware or also plasterboard supplies for the gun.

Trowel is used for glue fix where no nails are used or for very very heavy traffic areas. allow about one sagauge for every 7m2

[boban]

One thing that hasn't been addressed is how well the yellowtongue has been fixed and finished. On the houses that I have built, whether for flooring or not, we have sanded the joints flat on the particle board, especially where they have been exposed to the weather.

Walk aroung and check for squeaks, use plenty of screws and make sure that the yellow tongue is spot on before you lay the flooring. If you can get underneath the floor you will notice spots where the glue is missing from between the yellowtongue and joists. Stick your caulking gun in there and fill it with liquid nails or the equivalent.

Also dont forget to get the longest staples you can for the secret nailer.

[vGolfer]

Just thought I'd reopen this thread...

After all the dramas with my sub-floor (see http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=22087) I am about to lay the Yellowtongue myself, with the help of a mate. Anyone have any hints or tips for laying this stuff? It seems easy enough, but I'm sure there are going to be some tricky parts.

Some tips I have received.

1. Lay it in a brick pattern
2. Glue it to the joists with liquid nails then nail it
3. Jam the tongue into the groove as hard as you can - use an offcut to hammer the two pieces together

A couple of questions:

1. Should the Yellowtongue touch the walls or should there be a small gap so the wood never touches the wall?
2. There is the occassional joist that isn't completely flush with the joists on either side. Is this going to cause dramas with squaking etc once the 19mm timber has been laid on top?
3. I'll put a nail in on each side of the sheet where it sits on a joist - do I also need to nail it in the middle of the sheet as well?

Oh and for those that are wondering why we are laying 19mm solid timber flooring to Yellowtongue...we were told that by a number of installers that is the best way to help with noise and is less bouncy.

Thanks...

[ausdesign]

Vgolfer

Lay it in a brick pattern - definitely
Glue it to the joists & then nail it - definitely
Jamb the tongue . . . . - 'nip' the sheets together using a length of timber as long as (or longer than) the sheets (3.6) & a sledge hammer to gently tap the sheets together.
Should the Yellowtongue touch the walls . . .- either. I'd go against, purely as a preference.
There is the occassional joist that isn't completely flush - Probably the most crucial. Spend the time getting them level. The adhesive will take up some differences but you won't get a second chance to fix a squeaking floor.
I'll put a nail in on each side of the sheet where it sits on a joist . . . - a min. of 5 nails per sheet along the joist preferably 't' heads or in your situation even flat heads.

When you place the sheet onto the joist dont move it too much to disturb the adhesive - especially sideways.
We usually stand the sheet vertically in place against the laid sheet and gently lower it onto the joist, tap it into place & then nail it. Minimum glue disturbance, a straight line to the top of the joists & adequate nailing is the key.

[Auspiciousdna]

Can I ask why so many people lay flooring under flooring? Did your supplier say it was better or something?

[rick_rine]

Can I ask why so many people lay flooring under flooring? Did your supplier say it was better or something?

I can't work that out either . I just laid mine straight onto the floor joists . Also I found it best to pre-drill the holes before secret nailing them as it caused a lot less problems with splitting and therefore getting the tounge into the groove ( which is something I wont be doing for the next six weeks :( , thanks charles )

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Over the last 40 odd years or so joists (and bearers) have been getting further and further apart, 'til now the normal spacing seems to be right on the legal limit. No wonder floors are becoming bouncier...

But instead of fixing the problem at the source and respacing the joists, modern trends seem to be to kluge it by laying a sub-floor first.

Go figure!

[Auspiciousdna]

I've never seen any sub-floor framimg that was that far out it needed another floor lay under the purposed floor level, all I know it's like a scam to get people to buy more flooring than you need! And why glue it to boot? heaven knows if you need to take some up!

[elphingirl]

We laid 13mm hardwood overlay flooring over yellow tongue (with trowel applied Bostik Ultraset), all over a new hardwood subfloor. One advantage is that it is much easier to work on a building with a floor, and the finished surface can be finished when other trades are done. Also the floor feels very solid (but has that nice SMALL flex that you get with a timber subfloor). Acoustically it is wonderful, no squeaks, sounds very solid. Very happy with the choice.

[Auspiciousdna]

This is the page out of the text books concerning the laying of strip flooring that is given to students of Carpentry & Joinery at TAFE. I’m sorry but I can’t find that text were it states I should lay yellow tongue flooring under the strip flooring and then glue them together?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>


If people are happy with how they have completed their strip flooring other than what’s on that page, I’m pleased for you, but I believe you have been given bad advise.<o:p></o:p>

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

We laid 13mm hardwood overlay flooring over yellow tongue (with trowel applied Bostik Ultraset), all over a new hardwood subfloor.

The important word here is "overlay." :) At 13mm thick I wouldn't trust it as a standalone floor, unless you almost doubled the number of joists. It sounds like your floor was designed for a sub-floor, it's when people lay "stand-alone" floorboards over a sub-floor that I can't help but wonder about the integrity and ability of their advisors...

Even with your boards I'm not sure about using glue; that's what makes some of my repair jobs a misery and it's just so... unnecessary!

[Auspiciousdna]

The important word here is "overlay." :) At 13mm thick I wouldn't trust it as a standalone floor, unless you almost doubled the number of joists. It sounds like your floor was designed for a sub-floor, it's when people lay "stand-alone" floorboards over a sub-floor that I can't help but wonder about the integrity and ability of their advisors...

Even with your boards I'm not sure about using glue; that's what makes some of my repair jobs a misery and it's just so... unnecessary!

My friend I did read that bit about overlay,( 15mil H/W boards can span 450 centers, even if most people here don't believe so) but I also read the bit were she stated that a new subfloor was installed, Why would you pay for a new subfloor and then do the wrong thing from there? If I built a new subfloor frame I would build it to take the borads I'm intending to install, in the correct manner!

[Moo73]

Can I ask why so many people lay flooring under flooring? Did your supplier say it was better or something?

I put the yellow tongue down first so that we could continue the renos without having to worry so much about damaging the expensive bluegum which will be the final floor surface.

[Auspiciousdna]

I put the yellow tongue down first so that we could continue the renos without having to worry so much about damaging the expensive bluegum which will be the final floor surface.

Maybe the flooring should have been the last job on the list? It would of saved you $$$$

[elphingirl]

The important word here is "overlay." :) At 13mm thick I wouldn't trust it as a standalone floor, unless you almost doubled the number of joists. It sounds like your floor was designed for a sub-floor, it's when people lay "stand-alone" floorboards over a sub-floor that I can't help but wonder about the integrity and ability of their advisors...

Even with your boards I'm not sure about using glue; that's what makes some of my repair jobs a misery and it's just so... unnecessary!

I believe ther reason overlay flooring was exists was for use in concrete slab applications. But it has another bonus, which is the reduction in use of Australian hardwood timbers. The yellow tongue is - IMHO - overall a more sustainable resource than hardwood. Hence the reason we chose to use a small amount of a product we love but is being removed from old growth forests. (We did choose a timber that is currently in plantation for future harvesting).

Repair might be harded - but hopefully the way we have chosen to do it will make the floor more resistant to damage from the first. When neeing to be removed, it will be easy to just strip the whole lot - yellow tongue and all off the joists.

[Gaza]

It is a cost saving as the following trades can work faster and the project is not held up, it is also a saftey issue as working on joists is a no no these days (over 1.2mt up)

Cost of particle board is bugger all $35.00 per sheet, and also does reduce "spring"

Installing of T&G hwd flooring is quicker and easyer.

Auspiciousdna using these "new" flexible poly based as adheisves are the way to go and are backed by manfactures warranity, i think the tafe book may be out of date, plus when was the last time you saw a floor clamp being used on site. (nb we still use clamps for 8in and wider boards)

[E. maculata]

But it has another bonus, which is the reduction in use of Australian hardwood timbers. The yellow tongue is - IMHO - overall a more sustainable resource than hardwood. Hence the reason we chose to use a small amount of a product we love but is being removed from old growth forests. (We did choose a timber that is currently in plantation for future harvesting).


you just know I gotta respond to this statement :o .
Can someone give me a more environmentally friendly, less CO2 releasing during manufacturing, as well continually renewing itself building material than the modern Aussie hardwoods :D .
Popular opinion does not necessarily make something the truth :eek: .
Monocultures (as in many of our plantations) are not particularly popular with the fauna or with many informed thinking conservationists :confused: .

Sorry but I put up with half baked ideologies about the forests on a daily basis. :(

[Gaza]

reduction in use of Australian hardwood timbers. The yellow tongue

Dont know how using partcile board is saving tress as in this thread every one is covering the particle board with HWD flooring.

Use of our trees is a hard issue but by managing the resource and getting max value out of logs is the way to go, NO WOOD CHIPs from our great HWD forests of Nth NSW and Sth QLD, sure chip the waste product but dont do a Tasy stlye job.

I have attended rallys against changes propossed by NSW govt to reduce logging but all these are doing are closing down small operators and leaving the door open for Boral whos has been able to get log supply agreements from the govt.

Also beware when buying "recycled" hardwood flooring i know of major firms in both NSW, VIC and QLD who sell new timber as recylced, now that is a joke.....

[rick_rine]

you just know I gotta respond to this statement :o .
Can someone give me a more environmentally friendly, less CO2 releasing during manufacturing, as well continually renewing itself building material than the modern Aussie hardwoods :D .
Popular opinion does not necessarily make something the truth :eek: .
Monocultures (as in many of our plantations) are not particularly popular with the fauna or with many informed thinking conservationists :confused: .

Sorry but I put up with half baked ideologies about the forests on a daily basis. :(

I have to agree . I am surrounded by plantations and used to think them the devils curse for removing good farm land . Then , after a few years , it struck me . Grassland just produces a small amount of O and recycles a bit of Co2 . Trees on the otherhand do much more although I dont like the use of 1080 to protect them . Killed 2 of my dogs . Labradors , very friendly and wouldn't hurt a fly . Still upsets me .

[Auspiciousdna]

Gaza my friend, you too are allowed your opinion as am I, in fact I welcome it in this forum for all to judge the course they may choose to take if need so! <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

If the owner needed a surface to live on, I would supply a temporary floor like formwork of a material that could be reused later on to fit out a work shed or what ever. And if you must know I’ve been at two sites this pass year where this method of fixing was used, thank you! <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

I believe the method you’re championing is unnecessary and if you don’t have it, there be no need for a manufactures warranty, the manufacture that would be making money if you used this method. Beside the fact if you needed to get to the sub floor, it would easier to take up a few boards and replaced them, than repairing the glued surface! <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The retail price catalogue I have for Y/T sheet floor from Mr Ply$60-19mil and $85 for 22mil a sheet, says 3.6 x .9 over an average house plus glue and laying has to be around a $3000 give or take how thick you go and then comes the cost of the surface you see?<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Gaza</st1:place></st1:City> if you’re happy with the Y/T method I couldn’t be happier for you, but it’s not for me, this is just my opinion you don’t have to like it or agree!<o:p></o:p>

[Gaza]

Gaza my friend, you too are allowed your opinion as am I, in fact I welcome it in this forum for all to judge the course they may choose to take if need so!

Relax, i agree the whole idea is to have our own opion, i am just trying to let people know what new developments have occuried in the timber floor industry.
<O:p</O:p
If the owner needed a surface to live on, I would supply a temporary floor like formwork of a material that could be reused later on to fit out a work shed or what ever. And if you must know I’ve been at two sites this pass year where this method of fixing was used, thank you!

There is nothing wrong with this but just make sure the sheets are nailed down.

<O:p</O:pI believe the method you’re championing is unnecessary and if you don’t have it, there be no need for a manufactures warranty, the manufacture that would be making money if you used this method. Beside the fact if you needed to get to the sub floor, it would easier to take up a few boards and replaced them, than repairing the glued surface!

You should not have to replace a floor once its down but is possible with the glued ones, just lots of time to get it off.

<O:p</O:pThe retail price catalogue I have for Y/T sheet floor from Mr Ply$60-19mil and $85 for 22mil a sheet, says 3.6 x .9 over an average house plus glue and laying has to be around a $3000 give or take how thick you go and then comes the cost of the surface you see?

Bunnings has if for $36.00 inlcd GSt, most timber yards are under $40.00

<O:p</O:p if you’re happy with the Y/T method I couldn’t be happier for you, but it’s not for me, this is just my opinion you don’t have to like it or agree!<O:p</O:p

I prefer to use T&G plywood but most this cost is extra over and above what is required. We use plywood to avoid the issues of the edges cupping.

[elphingirl]

you just know I gotta respond to this statement :o .
Can someone give me a more environmentally friendly, less CO2 releasing during manufacturing, as well continually renewing itself building material than the modern Aussie hardwoods :D .
Popular opinion does not necessarily make something the truth :eek: .
Monocultures (as in many of our plantations) are not particularly popular with the fauna or with many informed thinking conservationists :confused: .

Sorry but I put up with half baked ideologies about the forests on a daily basis. :(

E.maculata,

I absolutely agree - my opinion IS a bit half baked.

It is only my opinion based on the research that one person can do, and my own analysis of what I found coloured with my own experiences and values. That doesn't mean it doesn't have any relevance - at least I have back my opinion with a choice of where to spend my $$.

Yes, using hardwoods is very low in embodied energy - but they are a finite resource. We are going to run out at some point.

Not that I want to start an environmental debate (please don't people - not on this thread at least) - I am simply saying that it's a complex issue, and I am entitled to explain why I made a choice without being criticised for having a 'half baked ideology'.

Justine

[rick_rine]

E.maculata,



Yes, using hardwoods is very low in embodied energy - but they are a finite resource. We are going to run out at some point.


Justine

Hi Justine ,

It would be hard to imagine running out of hardwoods if you see all the gum plantations here in Tassie . Sad fact is though that most are used for woodchips to send to Japan for them to make paper for us to buy back from them . We sell the woodchips at about $20/tonne ( less I think ) and buy back reams and reams of paper at grossly inflated prices . Makes sense does it ? One of the saddest sights I saw was a wood chip pile on Burnie wharf that was without any attempt at exagerating , 10 stories high , of RED MYRTLE . It had to be seen to be believed .

[Moo73]

Maybe the flooring should have been the last job on the list? It would of saved you $$$$

Nah, pulled the floor out in April - found cracks in foundations and had to re-pin that section. That delayed the internal finishing, so the yellow tongue got us through the winter in Yass (near Canberra) and at this stage, its looking like the bluegum won't be down until after Christmas - this way we can at least use the room.
:o