Personal responsibility....

[AlexS]

As I heard it, a very large hardware chain is being sued in WA by someone who went to one of their demos on how to build a pergola, and was hit in the eye by a chip of something while drilling when he tried to build it. It's claimed the demonstrator didn't tell him to wear safety glasses.

Now I don't have any great love for this chain - quite the opposite, actually - but surely we all bear some responsibility for our own actions, and the first is not to do something you don't know how to do properly. It would seem that if you don't wear safety glasses when you drill, you're either taking a calculated risk, in which case it's your own fault if something goes wrong, or you're too stupid to pick up a tool in the first place. I've done things that would put me in both camps at times, but I don't see how it could be either the demonstrator's or the store's fault.

It's different if the demonstrator was a professional teacher. Also, every power tool I've ever bought has come with a warning to wear goggles, earmuffs and possibly chain mail armour. Most of these warnings are there to protect the maker, but if you ignore them you do so at your own risk.

Waddaya think?

[Gumby]

I cut my finger on the jointer blade yesterday so I'm suing Carba-tec because they didn't tell me it was sharp. It's not my fault, never is. There is always somebody you can blame. Just ask one of those 'No win, no fee' solicitors. :rolleyes:

[jow104]

Some blame must be put at the feet of the legal profession they want business and they have created this modern day attitude to suing at a drop of a hat etc.

[Eastie]

Picture this….
<O:p</O:p
You’re the operator of two interlocking metal devices that you have to operate a couple of times a day It’s a vital operation that if left unchecked will often cause noticable down time that will more than likely be picked up by someone else – making you look like a tool. The operation is pretty simple if you’re on the ball, however the manufacturer never put interlock safety devices on the interlocking strips so if you stuff the operation up you risk significant tramua from catching your crown jewels in the interlock. No visual warning signs at all !


I’m thinking of suing zipper manufacturers for mental anguish.... (it's been a long day)

[DanP]

Some blame must be put at the feet of the legal profession.


I hate to say it but I'm going to back the Lawyers on this one. The blame IMO lays wholly and solely at the feet of the courts. If they grew a spine and told these idiots NO we wouldn't have lawyers in court trying it on. The lawyers are just doing their job and acting on behalf of their clients. It's the magistrate or judge who decides the fault.

Dan

[beejay1]

Had this happened in America the store would probably be found guilty of negligence and the customer would no doubt receive a large settlement. I suppose the store should have employed appropriate safety measures if they were inviting the public to take part in such a demonstration,, but not being of the legal profession I dont know if they are culpable or not. I would have a go at the store thoughhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon7.gif
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[jow104]

Yes Danp you have a valid point but don't lawyers eventually end up with the jobs at the top of the court? ie judges, magistrates etc.

[DanP]

BJ,

You don't need to be in the legal profession to see that the moron is the cause of his own injury. If he sues and wins it would be a blight on the legal system of this country. The civil legal system in America is a joke.

Dan

[DanP]

JOW, They do now. Only in the last couple of years have they changed the system to allow this, and IMO it has wrecked the system. It would be like making a policeman a magistrate and expecting him to be fair.

Dan

[Kev Y.]

As I heard it, a very large hardware chain is being sued in WA by someone who went to one of their demos on how to build a pergola, and was hit in the eye by a chip of something while drilling when he tried to build it. It's claimed the demonstrator didn't tell him to wear safety glasses.

Waddaya think?

I THINK I know who th evillage idiot is there :D ;) :rolleyes:

[jow104]

JOW, They do now. Only in the last couple of years have they changed the system to allow this, and IMO it has wrecked the system. It would be like making a policeman a magistrate and expecting him to be fair.

Dan

But he would be experienced :D :D :D :D :D

[beejay1]

BJ,

You don't need to be in the legal profession to see that the moron is the cause of his own injury. If he sues and wins it would be a blight on the legal system of this country. The civil legal system in America is a joke.
Dan
My understanding of Alexs post was that the person was invited to take part in the instore demonstration. If that is the case then I would think the store was responsible for the customer's safety and good luck to the punter.
If however the customer had bought the pergola and was building it at home then hes an idiot.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[ozwinner]

Maybe all judges should come up through the ranks, that way they can see what is actualy going on in the world.

Its very hard to see what is going on from your ivory tower.

Al :(

[Sturdee]

My understanding of Alexs post was that the person was invited to take part in the instore demonstration. If that is the case then I would think the store was responsible for the customer's safety and good luck to the punter.
If however the customer had bought the pergola and was building it at home then hes an idiot.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

I agree if it was in the store as part of the demo, which I doubt in view of liability insurances, then he has every right to sue and will win or get offered a substantial settlement, sufficient to equip a new workshop. :D

However if he did it with his tools at home he will loose and be responsible for all legal costs as he ignored the safety instructions supplied with all tools.

Peter.

[Cliff Rogers]

I'm with Sturdee, if the guy was using his own drill or even one he had just bought then he should have read the safety guff in the box.

HOWEVER, if he was an absolute beginner then the store demonstrator should have made a point about the safety aspect.
The problem with this is that maybe the demonstrator DID & maybe the dork was asleep, at the loo, or looking at a 'mouse pad' & not paying attention.

[AlexS]

My understanding of Alexs post was that the person was invited to take part in the instore demonstration. If that is the case then I would think the store was responsible for the customer's safety and good luck to the punter.
If however the customer had bought the pergola and was building it at home then hes an idiot.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9
Sorry, I wasn't as clear as could have been. I believe the injury occurred when he tried to build it at home.

If it was in the store that is obviously quite a different matter.

[Harry72]

I think Cliffy is right if he's done it at home using his own tools the safety warning would be written in black and white on the power tool safety instructions, he wont have a leg to stand on!

[kiwigeo]

Im sure some of you would recall a case in the USA a few years back where Black and Decker got sued by an idiot who while up on a ladder had suddenly felt the urge to scratch his forehead. Rather than do what any normal person would have done and climb down the ladder, put the drill down and then scratch his forehead the idiot forgot he had a drill in his hand and promptly stuck the drill bit through his head.

The most amazing thing is the case actually got as far as going before a court.....

The bottom line is....there has to be a point where individuals accept responsibility for their safety.

[kiwigeo]

Picture this….
<O:p</O:p


[font=Arial]I’m thinking of suing zipper manufacturers for mental anguish.... (it's been a long day)

Serves you right for not wearing underpants

[Groggy]

The guy's parents should be sued by the chain store.

I figure that their breeding has caused their idiot son to threaten the store with his own stupidity - call it a "root" cause case if you like...

[maglite]

The hardest thing to insure against is "Common Sense"..........apparently it isnt that common anymore:D

[kiwigeo]

A few examples from the oilpatch of people behaving stupidly ..

1. man oxy cutting on top of a pod full of jet fuel.
2. same man checking line up of freshly drilled holes through two pieces of steel plate by sticking his finger through same.
3. man putting aviation lifejacket on after hed buckled up his seat belt.


And the best one..

4. man slipped over on safety poster left lying on floor. And yes the subject of the poster was slip hazards.

[PAH1]

My favourite happened when we lived in the US. A 13 year old girl/woman was attacked by a bear in a state park. She was feeding the thing, signs saying everywhere not to, as they can bite and be generally dangerous. She won, why? because of the warning signs- the park service obviously knew that the animals were dangerous and did not do enough to get the animal out of the park.

[barnsey]

Jeez - there are more village idiots than we think. :rolleyes:

There are the obvious one's boring holes in their heads and there's a whole heap of others dreaming up ways to make the law an ass and yet others making the law an ass.:eek:

Fair dinkum how do you wind up getting locked up because you defended your property/family/self:mad:

Too many villige idiots I say :rolleyes:

Jamie

[Wongo]

I am suing my lawyer for not able to find me someone to sue. But first I must find a lawyer to represent my case. Hmmm I think I should give my lawyer a call.

[Termite]

Thats it, I'm becoming a lurker, cause if I dont then someone is going to sue me for actually believing the stupid advice I give and then injuring themself. Sounds stupid dosen't it, but in light of the things arising from this thread its not so stupid after all.
And to those bathtubs that realy think that I am going to keep my mouth shut and are cheering about it, well I'm not, so there. :p

[silentC]

I'm suing you for breach of promise :mad:

[Sir Stinkalot]

.... he wont have a leg to stand on!

Don't tell me he had trouble with the saw as well as the drill :confused:

[ozwinner]

Thats it, I'm becoming a lurker,
Im going to sue you for stalking!!!

Al :p

[Zed]

under australian oh&s law safety is the responsibility of the employer to provide a safe place to work. the employer, the employees, passersby etc are all still responsible for thier own saftey too.... if this dip$hit was stoopid enough to drill and not protect his eyes its his fault. whats he doing in a hardware store ? what pursuaded him he had the skill to build a major structure like a pergola ? even the most simple design requires some fair effort. therfore if hes to stupid to know that spinning metal in timber generates swarf he should hand in his power drill. wanker.

I bet the bastard didnt even hurt himself seriously... he's just tying one on.

in order to protect myself from litigation - I specifically state that the above is simply an opinion, its unqualified, ignorant of the facts and based on my personal prejudice. I'm even considering changing my autosignature to protect myself!

lets face it opinons are like bums, everyones got one.

[ozwinner]

lets face it opinons are like bums, everyones got one.
I think I got two bums......:o

Al :o :eek:

[craigb]

I think I got two bums......:o

Al :o :eek:

Well I can only hope that they are chums ;)

[boban]

Some of the attitudes displayed here are the reason why Bob Carr and his mates changed the law so that if your injured in this state, you'll need to know how fill out the sickness benefits form.

An actual example- Chain from crane (the massive ones you see on building sites) falls on the dogman. the guy can't sleep properly. Doctors say he is 14% of a worst case scenario. You need 15% to sue the Company at common law. Result, From $1,500 clear per week to about $300.

Notice how the insurers have more than doubled their share price in the last two years. I wonder why.

Lawyer and court bashing makes it easier for d1cks like Bob to screw the working man. Most lawyers are honorable people who work hard for their clients. There are bad apples like in every profession but not that many.

And I know I'm asking for it now but ask yourself why it is that that priests, teachers and lawyers are the first to go missing in the middle of the night when a dictatorship gets a hold of power.

And another thing, where else would you get a judge from if not from the ranks of solicitors and barristers. Joe blow is not exactly going to understand the latest High Court decision is he?

And another, most Magistrates come from the ranks of the prosecution side, dont they Dan?

[DanP]

Boban,

As you might see, I stuck up for the lawyers on this one. Your example of a man injured at work is not really relevant to this matter and I agree that he should have had recourse to full wage whilst affected by the incident at work.

To the best of my knowledge, and I have had too much to do with the DPP in Vic. a lot of the new magistrates that we are getting through have done a lot of time in legal aid and similar low paying areas of law. They are generally not the greatest for either side but tend to be a soft touch in the penalty area.

Dan

[boban]

DanP-

Yep, saw that mate.

I guess the PC people are doing the best to change for the worse..... "Mr X this is only your twentieth B&E, so its your last chance, $100 fine and $56 in court costs. You have 28 days to pay.....

As far as relevance is concerned. What I am trying to say is even though that guys example is a joke (the insurer wont pay on principle), blaming lawyers is an easy cop out.

For me "personal responsibility" equates to the recent pieces of legislation Bob passed for the insurers. Even though I practice in the Construction Law area, I hate what he has done to our Personal Injury system.

[DanP]

I think the main thrust of the discussion in this case is that people who know better should not be allowed to win court cases when they are the cause of their own injury, such as in the circumstance stated in the first post. I think there should be a stupidity clause at common law that states that if your injury is a cause of your own stupidity, you will lose at court.

Dan

PS. Bob CARR is a wanker and his idea of 'personal responsibility' is bullshyte.

[Guy]

I had heard a similar story about a certain hardware chain based in WA that has experts telling customers how to wire in power points. the story goes that a gentleman went to buy some cable and gpo's and the in store expert showed him how to wire the parts together. whilst installing he electocuted him self as he was not told he had to isolate the switchboard.
When i heard that i would place the blame on the hardware chain solely as it is illegal to install wiring unless you are licenced as apparantley the expert was not an electrician nor licenced.
BTW the guy survived

[beejay1]

I had heard a similar story about a certain hardware chain based in WA that has experts telling customers how to wire in power points. the story goes that a gentleman went to buy some cable and gpo's and the in store expert showed him how to wire the parts together. whilst installing he electocuted him self as he was not told he had to isolate the switchboard.
When i heard that i would place the blame on the hardware chain solely as it is illegal to install wiring unless you are licenced as apparantley the expert was not an electrician nor licenced.
BTW the guy survived
I hope just an isolated case ,, but quite shocking nevertheless!!http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[Bob Willson]

Ok Beejay1 that is quite enough out of you. You're grounded.

[beejay1]

Ok Beejay1 that is quite enough out of you. You're grounded.


http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[Iain]

Going back several posts I recall reading of an obstinate female who wanted to feed the dolphins contrary to local laws (this was in USA), the rangers spotted her waist deep in water feeding fish to the 'dolphins' swirling around her and went out in their boat to pick her up.
She protested violently stating it was her right to swim with her friends or whatever until the rangers pointed out the the tails on these dolphins were vertical :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[jow104]

Ok Beejay1 that is quite enough out of you. You're grounded.


Perhaps earthed should also be considered :D

[kiwigeo]

I'm suing you for breach of promise :mad:

Im going to put these lawyers out of business...Im going to do something really stupid and then sue myself.