Callous - you be the judge

[Treeboy]

The recent tragic death of Australian air personel was a great loss to their family, the Defence Forces and the nation. There is talk of those involved being hero's. For what? Dying doing a job they are trained and paid to do knowning that accidents can happen. Again it the is the polititions who put forward these propositions in a vane attempt to side with the emotional vote. I am sure that the people involved would not have expected a medal for Doing Their Job. It would only belittle those that truely are real hero's.

[Zed]

thats the way to lead with your chin treeboy.

I'll bet removes this quicker than you can say "I wish i'da not posted that."

[ozwinner]

thats the way to lead with your chin treeboy.

."
Hubba hubba Zed, pass me the base ball bat.

Al :eek:

[Wood Butcher]

Again it the is the polititions who put forward these propositions in a vane attempt to side with the emotional vote.
I dunno, maybe some of them do give a **** about others.:(

[vsquizz]

Good one tree boy. I've never given a rediie but your qualifying well.

Try thinking that the kids or grandkids of the deceased will have something special from their country to remember their lost ones by. Try thinking that they made the decision to serve their country not to be heroes but to do an often thankless job. I don't think the proposed medals are about hero status...but then again I think.

Some of us have gone to other parts of the world and busted our guts, lost our mates and come home hurting to get nothing. If the Seaking crew members get a postumous medal Bloody Good one them.

I've had enough the keys have been punched through the board.

[craigb]

Treeboy, you are a waste of space. :mad:

You are also the recepient of my first ever reddie. :(

[ubeaut]

I'll bet removes this quicker than you can say "I wish i'da not posted that."
delete it. I reinstated it. Why? Because I believe, that in a free society we all have a right to voice our own opinions, no matter how fanciful, bias, naive, narrow minded, or just down right wrong they may be.

Just bare in mind when making a statement like the one that heads this thread, that the vast majority of forum members have served or do serve in the armed forces, police, fire brigade, ambulance, SES, hospitals, etc etc etc. Pretty well all know what it is to lose comrades in both war and peace time. Many know what it is like to be ridiculed for doing their job (Vietnam vets especially). Most like myself and don't suffer fools lightly.

I also have an opinion on the subject but will keep it to myself.

Neil

[simon c]

I think that anybody who gives their life for their country is a hero, you don't have to be in the midst of battle to qualify.

It's not like they are being given Australia's highest award for gallantry, but a medal (ie some recognition) for giving your life seems fair.

That said, I can see some of the point treeboy is saying. Politicians making the most of a family's suffering by trying to score emotional points can be offensive - it's a bit like the flag at half-mast thread that upset ryan the seppo.

[Groggy]

I'd like to comment as I feel qualified. A little history first, I have spent 27yrs in the Air Force and have over 3000 hrs in rotary and fixed wing. I've also spent some time on deployments.

I viewed Treeboy's comment differently and did not take offence. In fact, there is some discussion in Defence circles from people worried about how other families will feel if this group are treated differently. I could rattle off 10 names of airmen killed on duty who did not receive any medals - what will their families think? For other members of Defence killed on duty what about them?

The Army soldier killed by an APC settling in mud, the soldier killed when a passenger in an Iroquois crash in 1981, the sailors killed in the fire on the Westralia, the sailors gassed on the Tobruk, the Wessex helicopter that crashed in Bass Strait in the early eighties killing sailors and Air force personnel (oddly enough, medical staff also) - the list goes on.

The dilemna is that if the politicians grant a medal for these members it (arguably) denigrates the efforts of others.

Expanding the field a little, was Adam Dunning, the police officer killed in the Solomons, granted a medal? Would his family feel dissapointed? Other Australians die in service of their country and their sacrifice is in no way lessened by not receiving a medal. The medals have a specific purpose and intent that should not be altered to fit the circumstances.

I realise this is a sensitive subject, but a lot of military members agree with my comments. The discussion is unfortunate because it should not be held now, in relation to a specific instance. It should also not be raised by the media who have not got a d*mn clue about the issues and sensitivities.

[Iain]

I reluctantly received a medal for what I considered self preservation, hardly heroics.
I also believe that there is a AASM or ASM for this relief mission but I could be wrong.
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/medal-ribbons.htm

[DaveInOz]

My brother was killed on the army barracks in Darwin a few years ago. I would have been angery if the army gave him a medal, I know he would have seen it as condecending. What the army did do was organise the funeral and present my parents with the flag from his coffin and the hat from his head.
That is all we need to acknowledge he served his country.

I believe that heros should be given awards for their exceptional heroics (to encourage others, moral etc). Participants in the services should be given service medals, wether they live or die, they are all heros, but perhaps not exceptional amongst their peers.

The media has cheapened the term hero and bravery. Now all you need to do to be a brave hero is get a serious illness. It is not brave to do something when you don't have a choise. Bravery is taking the hard path for the greater benefit rather than the easy path for less benefit.

Treeboy I hear what your saying but your wording is attrocious, they are heros, but are they exceptional? FWIW thw RSL seem to agree with you (you sentiments if not your wording :) ) and so do I.

On his birthday I light a candle for my brother, I remember him when he was at his happiest, playing together as kids, and doing his job in the army.
Vale Sapper Wallis. Died young doing what he loved.

[boban]

I thought long and hard before posting and hope that I have chosen my words well.

Treeboy, I don't think it was a wise move to raise the topic you did in the manner in which you did. And yes your presentation of the thread does come across as somewhat callous. I think you could have phrased your comments so that you did not come in for such rebuke. Remember without these individuals we are screwed and they should be treated with the utmost respect. Enough said there.

I have never served in any of the services so I don't know what its like to lose someone in such circumstances.

The deaths was tragic and I dont think that Treeboy meant to offend anybody or play down the value of the thousands of people who have served this country and those that have paid the ultimate price. I feel it is unfair to impune Treeboy for his raising this discussion. I just think his presentation was somewhat lacking given the topic.

I personally dont see the value in medals, but thats from my perspective. I'm sure others feel differently. I would much rather see the Indonesian and Australian governments establish a memorial at the site in memory of their efforts.

What our services have done this year is nothing short of remarkable. Could you imagine dealing with devastation on that scale on a daily basis? Yes they are heros but not because of their deaths but rather what they were doing.

I dont think you need to die to qualify as a hero, although the media (which is a self serving machine) like to run with these type of stories. I remember the BlackHawk crashes - were their deaths heroic? What these people do is to be considered highly commendable and most if not all feel that way.

My best mate is ex- SAS (the boat builder I've referred to in the past) and he feels the same as Groggy. The lack of consistency angers a lot of ex servicemen. What particularly gets to my mate is the talk of increased compensation for these individuals with a complete disregard for those who were inadequately compensated in the past.

I honestly hope that I have not offended anybody. For me this was a no-win post but I felt compelled to do it anyway.

[DanP]

First thing first, this whole thing was instigated by the media. They were the ones demanding to know if the deceased would get posthumous medals. The pollies have pandered to them.

On the medals, I dont think they deserve to receive a medal of any kind. What did they do other than their job? It would be like giving me a medal if I have a car acident and die whilst on patrol. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for those who died, but I don't think they should get medals.

If you give them bravery type awards, it devalues the awards previously given to people who received them for bravery, not just for dying. For example, I am currently nominated for a Victoria Police Valour Award (really. I am. Honest.). I recently heard a rumour that the department awarded a Valour Award to a female member for making a harrassment claim against her boss. How do you reckon that makes me feel about the award? I'll tell you, it makes me :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Why, you might ask? Well, I had stand toe to toe with a bloke with gun to get nominated. She made a phone call. :mad:

So, I say, Save the bravery medals for people who do something brave (or stupid, in my case).

Dan.

[Daddles]

According to some reports, this group were brave just for flying that heap of junk chopper. However, that still doesn't qualify for a medal. They do deserve to have their sacrifice recognised and remembered though. It's a pity that our politicians are too bloody petty to do so (no, I don't consider chasing media mileage recognition).

As for the original poster - have think before you post sunshine. It's not often I'm offended by a post I basically agree with, but you managed it (and no, I'm not going to give you a red medal for it - I'm saving them for someone truly deserving)

Cheers
Richard

[Iain]

The media has cheapened the term hero and bravery.
Here comes the cynic in me, kick a goal or be a footy player who gets blown up in Bali, what is so bloody heroic about that, meanwhile the true heroes are designated page 10 of the Sun if they are lucky.
As for 30 year old choppers, was that really a problem, plenty of travellers hurtle through the sky in a 747 of the same vintage, providing they are well maintained everything should be OK, once again the media are seeking a scapegoat, destroy a few more lives just to put a dollar in their own pockets and a situation like this is relatively easy pickings due to the devastation it has caused.

[Groggy]

Here comes the cynic in me, kick a goal or be a footy player who gets blown up in Bali, what is so bloody heroic about that, meanwhile the true heroes are designated page 10 of the Sun if they are lucky.
As for 30 year old choppers, was that really a problem, plenty of travellers hurtle through the sky in a 747 of the same vintage, providing they are well maintained everything should be OK, once again the media are seeking a scapegoat, destroy a few more lives just to put a dollar in their own pockets and a situation like this is relatively easy pickings due to the devastation it has caused.Iain, it seems we share a cynic within us.

The media are clueless and if Australia has had one major casualty in the last 50 years it has been the truth as portrayed by an increasingly profit-margin oriented media; frankly, they disgust me.

The 30 year old choppers are less likely to crash than brand new ones, history bears this out and any engineer will be aware of the bathtub curve and its effect on infant mortality (re failures).

Unfortunately, the media spews this cr*p out, creating untold angst and grief for those recently bereaved, and is totally unaccountable for it. Worse, the they feed on the problems they create.

The change in recent years, as I see it, is that in the past the media occasionally got it wrong, but usually tried to get the facts straight. Today, the media only claim "every one is saying it" and the sources have no "authority" whatsoever. In the past I have taken a reporter to task on his 'facts' and he simply smirked and claimed 'sources' gave him the information which, of course, he could not divulge.

[Iain]

Obviously the same source which enhances his eye fillet steak :(
I would love for them to sample some humble pie, but, as we are all well aware, it is not on the menu.

[gemi_babe]

I didn't see anything callous about the post. I didn't read any emotion in it to make it sound callous to me.

He stated that it was a tragic loss and that the govt are now feeding off the now grieving families/public.

I agree and feel that awarding medals to them would be unfair to every Australian that has died on the job, not matter what they do.

We all work, which inturn makes this country work.

If you were in war, then those that faught and died deserve some recognition along with those that didn't die.

My father was in the RAAF and his responsibility was to make sure the instruments on the planes worked. Big responsibility wouldn't you say? No recognition for making every flight a safe one, he was just doing his job.

bravery rewards should be for those only doing something out of the ordinary. Like going into a blazing fire and pulling out people or animals. Something that you do, that also puts yourself at risk!!!

[Gingermick]

Unfortunately, the media spews this cr*p out, creating untold angst and grief for those recently bereaved, and is totally unaccountable for it. Worse, the they feed on the problems they create. .
My sister works in that squadron as an avionics technician. The stories on the news gave her some flutters. I can only imagine that the mechanics there would have feltt 100 times worse.
mick

[echnidna]

I must agree with treeboy and others,
He certainly wasn't callous,

Bravery is not about doing what you have no alternative to do given all the circumstances. Nor is it about being hurt or killed even if you are on a noble cause.

It is about making a choice when you have choices.

Such as charging a machine gun nest with a grenade,
or,
Jumping in a river to save someone.
or
Standing between a bully and a victim.

[maglite]

I sincerely hope that i manage to word this right, but given my past history on posting i am sure that i will stuff it up and offend somebody.:(

Personally, i agree with the idea that there is a need for a special medal to be struck that honors those that are killed in the pursuit of a peacetime humanitarian mission.
I also believe that there must be some feature to the award/medal that distinguishes it from a combat medal for instance.
During my time in the ADF(Army) i felt reasonably assured that only the best medical care would be provided to me if i was injured in the pursuit of my ultimate employers goals (Aust Govt).
I am sure that if death were the fate of i, and i am sure of my collegues,we would have rested much easier knowing that our families would be well looked after in the way of compensation etc.
Medals are 1 thing(i dont agree), but i do hope that the victims of that accident can rest easy knowing that their families will be well looked after by the Aust Govt and compensated accordingly.

Just my point of veiw

[boban]

Daddles said " As for the original poster - have think before you post sunshine. It's not often I'm offended by a post I basically agree with, but you managed it"

Spot on!!!!!!!

[Wood Butcher]

I heard on the news today that little johnny has sought permission from her majesty to award all of the servicepeople that helped in the earthquakes (including those who died) with the Humanitarion Overseas Service Award. Apparently this award is reserved for civilians only but exception has been given in this case.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/050413/21/txr0.html