flag to half mast (a septic firefighters vent)

[ryanarcher]

well, bieng a professional firefighter and government employee i have to lower the flag to half mast whenever that cromagnon president of ours says so, and have just done so for the pope. Now i'm sure he was an alright bloke, but i couldn't help thinking that the flag would stay firmly at the top of the pole if the dali lama died or say...the leader of the muslim faith.
but really this reminded me of the blind fury i felt a while back and knew i could count on you lot for a some sympathy on this subject. here's what happened:
on September 12 2001 we were ordered to lower the flag to half mast in respect for the 343 firefighters and over 3000 others that died on the previous day. the flag stayed at half mast for one week. then...
when Ronald Reagan -the ex polititian and actor died the flag was ordered to half mast for one MONTH! :eek:
this shows you where their priorities lay. I truly felt like throwing up on that day. :mad:



-ryan

[bitingmidge]

Makes you wonder... when big Arnie gets to be president, and eventually dies, you'll have (more or less) a dead ex actor, Polish, catholic, president.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

You may as well just buy a shorter flagpole and be done with it.

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[ozwinner]

I have seen flags flying at half mast today and wondered what was going on.
To me he was/is a nothing, but then I am a heathen. ;)
I agree about giving prefferential treatment to one type of religion, what about all the other religions when their head/leader dies. :confused:

Al, the none religious fanatic :D

[Wongo]

Yeah, it is about who is more famous or who is not. A little bit like marketing. Who is more marketable and who is not. (Good point on dali lama). The Catholic Church is one of the richest and most powerful organisations in the world… (Oh I should shut up).

Diana is people’s princess after doing some work in Africa. (Eh she had an affair with a couple guys.) We all love her and respect her. You can still see her on the news and magazines.

On the other hand, Mother Teresa devoted her whole life working for the poor but who would talk about her anymore?

Wongo (a non-believer)

[Gumby]

Diana is people’s princess after doing some work in Africa. (Eh she had an affair with a couple guys.) We all love her and respect her. )


I don't. Speak for yourself, not others please. :cool:

[silentC]

My favourite is old Charlie postponing his wedding out of respect!

a. One of his ancestors created the Church of England so that he didn't have to do what the Pope told him any more.
b. His reason for doing this was because he wanted to divorce his then wife to marry another one.

Oh, the irony.....

[Kev Y.]

But what about tomorrow or when ever ???? when Chuck places his brand on Cammie?, what level will the flags be flying then?

Ryan, as for you current predicement, all I can say is remember.. george dubbya is a POLITCIAN and as such will always do what is politically advantagous for himself.. could you imagine the backlash if he failed to show anything towards the leader of possible the largest religious group in the world?

for my part most politcians are hypocritical pieces of $^!#

[DanP]

when big Arnie gets to be president...(SNIP)..., a dead ex actor, Polish, catholic, president.

Arnie is Austrian. So to the Seppos he's an Aussie. :rolleyes:

Dan

[Slavo]

The problem is that politicians are making the decisions - and they make those decisions along the line of least resistance (i.e. what will make them look good in the the latest opinion poll). Unlike any other highly paid, high profile, big decision-making job, you dont need to be well educated to be a pollie - you just need friends in high (or low) places, know how to branch stack and how to brown nose the right people. Dont get me wrong, I've met a number of pollies and a few (minority) are intelligent, considerate and genuine people, but you wouldn't feed the rest.

I'm sure that 'W' only ordered the flag at half mast so he would give the appearance of doing the right thing infront of those hypocritical gossip-monger journalists ...

BTW, when we visited the Vatican a couple of years ago I asked at the gift shop for some pope on a rope soap - they didn't have any but I reckon they would have been on a winner there.

[Sturdee]

Whilst everyone knows that the pope was the Grand Poobah of the catholic church :D it is not as well known that he was also the head of an independant nation. Namely the Vatican City.

As such protocol demands that the flag is lowered as a mark of respect for the funeral of a reigning head of state and not because of any religious reasons. Of course the fact that all catholics will be pleased doesn't harm our pollies when they comply with this protocol.


Peter.

[beejay1]

I dont believe that its appropriate to compare situations like these .

The death of a world or church leader or the impact of a major disaster affects us all in one way or another and the emotions remain with individuals long after the flags are raised.

9/11 is an event and a date that will never be forgotten by anyone alive at that time. Its an event that history will show as the start of the fight against world terrorism, hopefully a successful fight, and if our children can live in a world free from such acts of violence in ten or twenty years time then maybe, just maybe, 9/11 will be seen as having some sort of meaning in the grand scheme of things rather than just a waste of so many innocent lives.

I dont think the length of time a flag is lowered is at all relevant and whether or not its a political manoeuver doesnt matter to me. I for one am always saddened by tragedy and the death of great people and loss of innocent lives and I do mourne them all but in my own way and own time. Some I never forget others I probably do but Im sure were all a bit like that.

The fact is that the Pope was a much loved and highly respected church leader who spent his life trying to unite a very troubled world. He was progressive and didnt walk away from confrontation. He spoke his mind and condemned all acts of violence by all countries and their leaders and he cared deeply for everyone regardless of their religion or beliefs. He was in my book a great man. I dont think too many people will be concerned about how long flags are lowered for and Indeed I dont think think they should. That to me is lack of respect in itself and to begin to compare such events and there 'flag lowering worth' is in my mind somewhat puerile.
The last thing we want is a rating scale for world disasters and deaths.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[bitingmidge]

Arnie is Austrian. So to the Seppos he's an Aussie. :rolleyes:

Dan
Yeah, I know I was taking a LOT of licence.... my apologies to all the Poles out there (specially flag poles that I've just had shortened), and unless the constitution is altered he can't take on the big job anyway! (Maybe John Malkovich will get that geurnsey!)

As far as lowering the flag goes... really chaps... whatever else he is/was, he was a human being, and if being the leader of the largest religious denomination in the western world doesn't qualify him for a basic tick of respect then what does??

I won't be watching the funeral on tele (couldn't stand the "casket cam" shots), in fact I have no understanding of why one would queue for hours to take a photo of a dead guy with one's mobile phone.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

I hope I don't become so famous that when I cark it they stick me in a red dressing gown for the world to see.

Cheers,

P(But I'd be happy for the Bellingham Fire Dept to lower their flag for the afternoon! :D :D )

[Wood Borer]

in fact I have no understanding of why one would queue for hours to take a photo of a dead guy with one's mobile phone.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Let up Midge, to some people mobile phones are their little world. If I was there I would probably put one of my LN's in his coffin and take a photo of him and the plane so what's wrong with the mobile phone in the photo?


Ryan,

It's all just a game played by spoilt control freaks.

I hate it too and I also protest at the double and tranparent standards set by politicians. If world politicians thought so much of the Pope, why didn't they take notice of his advice about the invasions?

[AlexS]

But what about tomorrow or when ever ???? when Chuck places his brand on Cammie?, what level will the flags be flying then?

Ryan, as for you current predicement, all I can say is remember.. george dubbya is a POLITCIAN and as such will always do what is politically advantagous for himself.. could you imagine the backlash if he failed to show anything towards the leader of possible the largest religious group in the world?

for my part most politcians are hypocritical pieces of $^!#

Don't flatter them, Brudda, they'll get swollen heads.

Someone (maybe on this forum) once said that when a man marries his mistress it leaves a position vacant. :D

[Toggy]

On to more WW things....

Wood Borer; were they hand cut dovetails on coffin; or did they use a jig???:rolleyes::D

Ken

[Kris.Parker1]

Firstly let me say that no matter the occasion, half masting of the national flag should be standardised. Half mast should be like most goverment establishments in Australia and only be half masted for half a day. This gives respect to the deceased as well as still showing the strength of the country. If there were only one procedure for all, then there would be no concern over what is more important. To all those out there reading this forum, maybe we shouldn't concentrate on the act and how many people were lost or who's life is more valuable. Maybe we should concentrate more on the life of that or those persons who died. I cannot understand how people can measure a person by there position. Whether it's one or one hundred or one thousand people, if half masting were made standard then all people would understand that it is half masted because something has happened which we should all be made aware. Regardless if we don't know the person or persons who died, the actual act of relfection upon seeing a half masted flag should be enough.

My two cents any.

P.S. Biting Midge, Arnie can't become el-presidentay because he was not born in the USA.

Beejay, I have to agree with your points about not implementing a half mast scale.

[Kris.Parker1]

The problem is that politicians are making the decisions - and they make those decisions along the line of least resistance (i.e. what will make them look good in the the latest opinion poll).
I beleive that in Australia the only person who can order the half masting of the ANF is the Governor General. When I last checked this was not a political position.

Not meaning to sound picky Slavo and not to have a go at you, but I thought I'd just let you know my thoughts.

If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Cheers

Kris

[Sturdee]

If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me.


Kris, you may be right about the GG being the only one that can order the flag to be flown at half mast, but remember the GG, under the constitution, must act on the advice (read instructions) of the Executive Council.

This wonderfull institution consist of the GG and any two ministers. Hence it is the pollies who actually order it. :D :D :D



If half masting were made standard then all people would understand that it is half masted because something has happened which we should all be made aware. Regardless if we don't know the person or persons who died, the actual act of reflection upon seeing a half masted flag should be enough.




That's what happens at the golf club I worked. When a member died the club flag would be lowered to half mast untill the day of the funeral. On the day of the funeral the club flag would be raised and the Australian flag would be lowered for the funeral.

This was done not only as a mark of respect but also to advise other members that the club was in mourning.


Peter.

[ryanarcher]

I dont believe that its appropriate to compare situations like these .

The death of a world or church leader or the impact of a major disaster affects us all in one way or another and the emotions remain with individuals long after the flags are raised.

9/11 is an event and a date that will never be forgotten by anyone alive at that time. Its an event that history will show as the start of the fight against world terrorism, hopefully a successful fight, and if our children can live in a world free from such acts of violence in ten or twenty years time then maybe, just maybe, 9/11 will be seen as having some sort of meaning in the grand scheme of things rather than just a waste of so many innocent lives.

I dont think the length of time a flag is lowered is at all relevant and whether or not its a political manoeuver doesnt matter to me. I for one am always saddened by tragedy and the death of great people and loss of innocent lives and I do mourne them all but in my own way and own time. Some I never forget others I probably do but Im sure were all a bit like that.

The fact is that the Pope was a much loved and highly respected church leader who spent his life trying to unite a very troubled world. He was progressive and didnt walk away from confrontation. He spoke his mind and condemned all acts of violence by all countries and their leaders and he cared deeply for everyone regardless of their religion or beliefs. He was in my book a great man. I dont think too many people will be concerned about how long flags are lowered for and Indeed I dont think think they should. That to me is lack of respect in itself and to begin to compare such events and there 'flag lowering worth' is in my mind somewhat puerile.
The last thing we want is a rating scale for world disasters and deaths.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

BJ,
I wholeheartedly disagree with you. by dictating the amount of time the flag is lowered, the president is creating a rating scale for the amount of respect aforded to peoples deaths. And a few months ago GW told me that one ronald reagan = 4 times all of the 9/11 victims.

BJ, it's real easy for you to call me childish while you sit an ocean away and pretend to be sympathetic towards the september 11 atacks. just know this:

if 343 of your brothers and sisters died on that day, you would feel differently.

[ryanarcher]

9/11 is an event and a date that will never be forgotten by anyone alive at that time. Its an event that history will show as the start of the fight against world terrorism, hopefully a successful fight, and if our children can live in a world free from such acts of violence in ten or twenty years time then maybe, just maybe, 9/11 will be seen as having some sort of meaning in the grand scheme of things rather than just a waste of so many innocent lives.

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

BJ,
ask yourself honestly how many of our boys and resources are fighting terrorism, and how many are killing and bieng killed so that we can have lower oil prices.

[bitingmidge]

BJ,
ask yourself honestly how many of our boys and resources are fighting terrorism, and how many are killing and bieng killed so that we can have lower oil prices.

Fresh out of Greenies Ryan, but which part of Queensland did you day you were from???

P
:D :D :D

[beejay1]

To reply to your points Ryan:
1) My understanding is that in your country, flag lowering is only officially to mark the death of an important government official. All other instances are decided upon at the time and duration is governed by strength of national feeling and approved by congress. Please correct me if thats wrong.

2) I said that you were puerile by saying that the events of 9/11 should have a greater rating of flag lowering worth than certain other events and that such a statement in itself showed lack of repect. I still stand by that. The lowering of a flag is a mark of respect, and personal grief and sorrow continues long after a flag has been raised .

3) As to pretending about my feelings on that day. How dare you Ryan! Along with millions of others throughout the world I was shocked to tears. People do not need to be close to such an event to feel the impact of such an horrific event and I was heartbroken at the loss of over 3000 innocent lives through such an act of mindless terrorism.

4) A war over Oil? As with all wars Ryan there are always reasons and hidden agendas. In this intance I do not believe that oil price is what its about at all. George Bush was re-elected by your nation because it believes in what he is doing. I also feel that without your country's and your President's committment to ridding the world of such activities we would have already seen other similar attrocities.
That said, yes, politics invariably play a part and usually for reasons that we common folks dont always understand. Out of everything bad in the world something good usually appears and more often than not the good is secured by politcal management which is seldom evident until after the event. Im not referring to oil prices here by the way. Look to history and you will find many examples.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[ozwinner]

3)Along with millions of others throughout the world I was shocked to tears. People do not need to be close to such an event to feel the impact of such an horrific event and I was heartbroken at the loss of over 3000 innocent lives through such an act of mindless terrorism.


Same.
You dont have to be there at the actual event to feel numbed to the core.
For many many months after, every time a plane flew over I relived the event I saw on the news.


Al :(

[echnidna]

ditto Al And Beejay

[DanP]

Beejay,

I'm gunna have to go with Ryan on this one. Your point one (1) "governed by the strength of national feeling" How much national feeling do you want? I doubt there has ever been an incident in the history of the US and maybe the world that has generated more national feeling.

I suppose those of you who aren't in emergency services don't really understand the comradeship in these departments. If one police member dies, it's like someone has killed your brother (I had a mate of mine die on the job). To have 343 of your family die in one hit is something that I can't even imagine. I wept on the morning when I got up for work and saw the devastation on the news. But I wept more in empathy for those emergency services workers still alive who had lost their family.

I don't think he shows a lack of respect to the pope at all. He was simply stating that if had been some other head of a major religion he doubted that the flag would be half masted.

I think the length of time that a flag is half masted is relevant. It has been made relevant by the pollies who decide how long it is half masted for. AND, I think to half mast a flag for a month for Ronnie Reagan is a joke, when the people who gave their lives trying to save people like you and me, true heroes, are given the honour of having it there for one quarter of that time. If I was in Ryan's position I would be bleeding too.

Dan

[beejay1]

Dan, dont disagree with you at all. There couldnt have been any stronger feeling nationally or internationally and maybe if such a tragedy had ever been considered by congress in 1942, an appropriate duration would have been set.

You are also correct in assuming that I can only imagine the comradeship that exists in services like the police and fire service as well as the armed forces and Its such loyalty and bonding that probably along with hard training makes those forces excel at what they do. I do however know how it feels to lose a loved one, furthermore, I made no reference at all to any rescue services on that fatefull day.

The lack of respect was in relation to the comparison of deaths and disasters. For one to complain about and compare flag lowering duration shows lack of respect for any loss of life.

Finally,I would point out Dan that lowering the flags after 9/11 was to show respect for All who perished not just the firemen.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[DanP]

Finally,I would point out Dan that lowering the flags after 9/11 was to show respect for All who perished not just the firemen.

BJ, As to the above quote, you are of course, correct.

My opinion on the flag lowering is that a flag should be lowered for a set period, be it 24 or 48 hours or one week. The fact that it is being politicised by pollies setting a length of time that it will be lowered creates a comparison to other times it has occurred, especially if you have an emotional involvement, such as Ryan has. Which, I think, is the entire point of his original post.

Dan

[Wood Borer]

Ken,

Good question. I looked carefully for morse coded messages in the dovetails but they seemed to have the tails and pins the same width. You would have thought the cameramen would have zoomed in on the dovetails a bit more too.

Hopefully they were handcut but more importantly what was the timber?

Again the brains of $%^& press speak so authoritively even when they are wrong. I didn't watch too much of it but SWMBO was watching it so I caught a couple of glimpses of the funeral whilst eating my dinner.

One reporter said the coffin was made from cypress, another said cedar and another said pine. These pea brained commentators guess and make out their guesses are factual.

After hearing that I am questioning whether the Pope really died at all, perhaps they got that confused a little bit too.

So what was the coffin made from.

[Kris.Parker1]

Guys, I hope I don't get shot down in flames. But this topic seems to be destabilising quite quickly. Maybe we should call it quits here and go to the polls... Click here to be magically whisked away by the cyber train...

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=16350

[ryanarcher]

BJ,
we'll just diagree on this one, and that's cool. no hard feelings. and to quote the wise toggy "on to more ww things". anyway thanks for letting me get that off my chest guys.
-Ryan

[simon c]

I think the US are a bit inconsistent by their half-mast flag flying, 30 days for a president is a bit excessive. Not sure what the rules are here in oz but in the UK it is just for the day of the funeral for all "important" people except the reigning soverign when it is from the death until the funeral.

I also believe that an individual can't fly the US flag at half-mast unless it is in response to a presedential or state governor proclamation.

However, there are other occaisions when flags are at half-mast - memorial day or something?

[beejay1]

Dear Ryan,
Of course there are no hard feelings. I apologise for any upset I may have caused.
Kind regards,
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[Toggy]

BeeJay, please don't pick on Ryan anymore; he is a gentleman; he called me wise!!;)


And Wood Borer,
The coffin was wood, I know that much.:D. Obviously would be of Mediteranean origin. From the photos I saw; there was too nice a grain for pine as I know it. (Plainish but swirled & lightly knotted. Similiar to Huon Pine) At a guess I would pick Cedar of Lebanon as it has religious links through the ages. For a body to be left out in the hot sun for such a long time; I would guess that a highly aromatic timber would be a bonus for masking the pong ( especially in days gone by). I have read somewhere that the origin of the incense burners was for masking the smell of decaying bodies.

Now someone much wiser than me will step forward and tell us it was cypress.:D

Ken

[beejay1]

Now someone much wiser than me will step forward and tell us it was cypress.:DKen
I think it was Ken http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon7.gif

beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[Toggy]

BJ, Any idea of type & origin? It is nothing like any of the imported cypresses growing here. I'm sure others would be interested too.

Ken

[beejay1]

BJ, Any idea of type & origin? It is nothing like any of the imported cypresses growing here. I'm sure others would be interested too.

Ken
All i know Ken is that it was a local cypress, dont know any more than that. That one is then placed in a zinc one which in turn is placed inside a third made of either Walnut or Oak before being laid under the marble slab.
beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[craigb]

The voice over person on the teev said it was "a simple wooden coffin"

All I could think was: "wow, nice box. Those dovetails look great" ;)

[Toggy]

From the bit I heard on the TV; I sort of gained the impression that the "commentator" was more simple than the casket. I wonder how many times he had to wipe the brown drivel (bovine droppings) from his chin. I felt his drivel cheapened the whole affair. At least some of the more learned people passed on intelligent information.


Ken

[Wood Borer]

I heard it called cypress, cedar and pine at different times. Makes you wonder how accurate the other comments were.

I hope they were handcut Toggy. They seemed to be equal width in the pins and tails and I didn't pick any hidden messages encoded in morse code with the spacing of the dovetails. What an opportunity!