In the Market Place, what do the Moderators think that 'PM Sent' means?

[adeben]

I recently sought further information re an item for sale in the Market Place. I did so via a PM, and then posted a message 'PM sent' to indicate that I had done so. This seemed to bring a rebuke from the Moderator, and a request to read the rules re posting. I have done that, and, given that I was not making an offer to buy, I don't know how else I could have proceeded. I thought a PM was the appropriate way to get further information, and that it was also courteous to let the person know that a PM had been sent. Had I been offering to buy, I would have posted to that effect. Any advice on how to get further information on an item?

[Sturdee]

I recently sought further information re an item for sale in the Market Place. I did so via a PM, and then posted a message 'PM sent' to indicate that I had done so. This seemed to bring a rebuke from the Moderator, and a request to read the rules re posting. I have done that, and, given that I was not making an offer to buy, I don't know how else I could have proceeded. I thought a PM was the appropriate way to get further information, and that it was also courteous to let the person know that a PM had been sent. Had I been offering to buy, I would have posted to that effect. Any advice on how to get further information on an item?

Rather then sending a pm I would have asked the question by posting it in the thread. Then everyone is aware of your interest and the answer to your question should also be posted there. A pm should only be used in these cases for exchanging details once an offer has been made and accepted.

BTW I'm not a Mod but this is what I see should be done in these cases.


Peter.

[FenceFurniture]

I recently sought further information re an item for sale in the Market Place. I did so via a PM, and then posted a message 'PM sent' to indicate that I had done so. This seemed to bring a rebuke from the Moderator, and a request to read the rules re posting. I have done that, and, given that I was not making an offer to buy, I don't know how else I could have proceeded. I thought a PM was the appropriate way to get further information, and that it was also courteous to let the person know that a PM had been sent. Had I been offering to buy, I would have posted to that effect. Any advice on how to get further information on an item?

The moderator more than likely thought you were saying "PM sent" meant an offer to buy. In the past there have been several bunfights opened up this way, so the rule changed to say you had to say "I'll buy it" in the thread, and only then did "PM sent" constitute something. I guess if you said "PM sent requesting more info" you wouldn't have been jumped upon (not that you knew that). If the Mod in question doesn't see this then don't take it personally, just "doing their job" to keep any fights at bay.

[DJ’s Timber]

Basically what Peter said.

The problem is, no one knows what the PM Sent is for, it could be saying please send bank details.

If a PM is sent, it should say something like,

PM Sent for Postage Cost Quote

or

PM Sent for Info on Motor.

By putting everything in the thread, it keeps it all transparent in the case of a dispute etc as we Mods cannot access the PM system.

[corbs]

Does this also mean that all negotiations regarding price should also be carried out for everyone to see in the thread?

[Sir Stinkalot]

Just out of interest what happens in the following situation?

Potential buyer X sends a PM to the seller (and posts on the forum) asking about postage/colour/condition/whatever - trying to seek further information prior to committing to the sale as perhaps the initial post did not contain sufficient information for buyer X to decide if the item was suitable.

Potential buyer Y sends a PM (and posts on the forum) stating that they would like to buy the item.

Is it just a gentleman's agreement between all parties that buyer X got in first with the PM (post) and has the opportunity to find out the necessary information from the seller before deciding to make the purchase or not?

[Jim Carroll]

Just out of interest what happens in the following situation?

Potential buyer X sends a PM to the seller asking about postage/colour/condition/whatever - trying to seek further information prior to committing to the sale as perhaps the initial post did not contain sufficient information for buyer X to decide if the item was suitable.

Potential buyer Y sends a PM stating that they would like to buy the item.

Is it just a gentleman's agreement between all parties that buyer X got in first with the PM and has the opportunity to find out the necessary information from the seller before deciding to make the purchase or not?

Michael this is why we ask all pms etc asking advice etc be posted on the forum so everyone knows whos in line for the purchase

And yes it is a gentlemans agreement that the seller advise everyone whos on first etc

We need it transparent so there is no bun fights as DJ indicated.

[RETIRED]

As said above. You will notice that there is now a new prefix that you should be able to access via edit (if it falls within the time frame) called "pending" meaning that negotiations are taking place and the sale depends on these. It can be changed if the deal falls through.

[NCArcher]

Just out of interest what happens in the following situation?

Potential buyer X sends a PM to the seller (and posts on the forum) asking about postage/colour/condition/whatever - trying to seek further information prior to committing to the sale as perhaps the initial post did not contain sufficient information for buyer X to decide if the item was suitable.

Potential buyer Y sends a PM (and posts on the forum) stating that they would like to buy the item.

Is it just a gentleman's agreement between all parties that buyer X got in first with the PM (post) and has the opportunity to find out the necessary information from the seller before deciding to make the purchase or not?

If buyer X didn't post "I'll take it" or similar then Y should get the sale. If X wanted first dibs he should post "I'll take it, provided postage isn't too expensive" or whatever.
PM's should only be used once a deal is struck to iron out the details or swap contact info etc.
Well that's my interpretation anyway. I've witnessed the blues over who posted the first PM and they aren't pretty :no: Not just on this forum either. I frequent a few that have the same PM rules for the market place.

[Sir Stinkalot]

Ok thanks - no problem. I perhaps confused/complicated the issue I was trying to clarify by raising PM's.

The aspect I was more interested in, and trying to establish the general forum understanding on, was that if buyer X expresses interest but has not been able to commit due to having to seek further details from the seller, that there is a gentleman's agreement between buyer X, buyer Y and the seller that discussions are permitted to continue between buyer X and the seller until buyer X pulls out, leaving second dibs to buyer Y.

This appears to be correct, which was my previous understanding. I have not had an issue previously but I have noticed that it seems to happen often and reading the rules I didn't see the issue covered. The "pending" prefix sounds good and it would be useful if the seller posts that the sale is pending with buyer X so that buyer Y (and others) know what is going on.

Cheers

Stinky

[doug3030]

While I agree with the above that all offers and requests for further info be in the thread, I can tell you from personal experience that if you are the first to post "I will take it" in the thread then you still might not get the item if the seller and another buyer are unscrupulous. Despite their best intentions the mods have no means of enforcing the rules of the marketplace if the seller refuses to cooperate.

It will only work when all those involved in the transaction are gentlemen and act honourably within the rules set down by the moderators.

Doug

[Yonnee]

In reality, the forum is just a means for people to place a free advertisement and a means of contact for articles they have to offload, and/or articles they'd like to obtain. The Administrators and Moderators have no control how people conduct their transaction once this contact is made. As Doug has stated, we would hope that everyone completes these transactions with honour and respect, but ultimately, we have no control over human behavior.

As for "PM Sent", we have absolutely no idea what this means as we cannot read minds, but for the Originator of the post, if you have offered to buy the item, it would mean you have no case to answer if the item was sold from under you (as per the rules) as you haven't made your intentions publicly known. A P.M. should only be used for exchanging personal details as any information enquired on the item might be useful for all concerned.

[adeben]

In response to Yonnee:
I thought I had made it clear in my post that I was not intending to buy, just seeking further information. If another poster was prepared to buy immediately without further information, then, as far as I'm concerned, the seller can take that offer. I never imagined that using 'PM sent' would or should give me any priority to buy: It's perfectly clear that being first to post something like 'I'll take it' should give priority.
However, there was a question raised above about sending a PM to discuss a price reduction. I don't believe that such negotiation should be done via viewable posts, because it allows other folks to enter the process, which will muddy the notion of 'priority', and almost inevitably will encourage gazumping.

[Scott]

This thread has raised the issue of conduct when selling/buying. Unfortunately I've been the recipient of one dodgy buy on this forum however the opportunity to provide feedback (apart from creating an inflammatory thread) on the transaction is lacking. This would provide the opportunity for others to be forewarned. Thoughts?

[doug3030]

However, there was a question raised above about sending a PM to discuss a price reduction. I don't believe that such negotiation should be done via viewable posts, because it allows other folks to enter the process, which will muddy the notion of 'priority', and almost inevitably will encourage gazumping.

I agree. I have on a couple of occasions made an offer by PM but not before the thread has been sitting around for a while with no offers to buy at the asked price. I would not make such an offer in the open forum as I believe it is against the spirit of the rules of no auctions or "best offer" policy.

As for gazumping, it has happened to me. The seller even posted "Sold to Doug" in the thread. I received a copy of the post in my email notifications. He was then contacted by another unscrupulous member who probably offered a higher price. The seller then edited the post to say that it was sold to the other buyer. This was despite the proof that I put forward in the thread and I have been assured that there were several PM's to the seller from administrators and moderators.

Personally I will not do business with either the seller or the buyer involved. http://www.woodworkforums.com/f221/chuck-bowl-jaws-pantograph-sandstone-point-150754/

Having said that, nearly all other transactions I have made through the forum marketplace have been great experiences. I had a small amount of trouble with a router I bought which had some damage that the seller was not aware of but after some negotiation that sale ended up with both of us happy.

Unfortunately it is the few who spoil it for the many who try to do the right thing.

Doug

[Yonnee]

In response to Yonnee:
I thought I had made it clear in my post that I was not intending to buy, just seeking further information. If another poster was prepared to buy immediately without further information, then, as far as I'm concerned, the seller can take that offer. I never imagined that using 'PM sent' would or should give me any priority to buy: It's perfectly clear that being first to post something like 'I'll take it' should give priority.
However, there was a question raised above about sending a PM to discuss a price reduction. I don't believe that such negotiation should be done via viewable posts, because it allows other folks to enter the process, which will muddy the notion of 'priority', and almost inevitably will encourage gazumping.

My response was a general clarification, not intended to specifically target a particular case. In this case your original question in this thread was "what do the Moderators think that 'PM Sent' means?", to which the simple answer was, and still is, "we have absolutely no idea what it means as we cannot read minds". In this case the post possibly should have read, "PM sent, more information required", and therefore would have avoided any ambiguity.
In the case where a potential buyer wants to negotiate privately, then a simple "PM sent with offer" (or similar) clearly states your intention to buy without disclosing financial details.

[Groggy]

I've only just come across this thread and, as the mod who made the post, I feel I am best placed to answer.

The short answer.
My response was not a rebuke, it was a caution to everyone about the conduct of sales. To get further information a "PM sent seeking clarification" is sufficient. "PM sent" used to indicate someone wanted to buy it but it was too confusing and unclear to other interested parties.

The long answer (for everyone, this response is not aimed at the OP specifically).

First, the rules are there for some very good reasons, we DO NOT invent them for us (admin), they are there to protect those who complain they have been ripped off, gazumped, mislead, ignored, bypassed, lied to, low-balled, baited and switched, defrauded, sold junk, misunderstood etc.

Most people do not read the rules (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f90/rules-posting-market-place-forums-150585/#post1467900) and just post what they see others doing. The mods have no idea who reads what, but we do develop a kind of "sixth sense" after a while for threads in the Market Place that have the potential to go wrong.

An example:

A few weeks ago I posted a very similar caution in a thread that was almost a duplicate in timing and offers/PMs. After I posted the warning a member said "I'll take it" and immediately there was a problem. The seller ignored the rules and had agreed to sell to another member who had ALSO ignored the rules and made an offer in a PM, nothing recorded in the thread. The third party who said "I'll take it", in accordance with the rules, was told he could not have it. The only record in the thread of any offer to buy was by the third party. This caused a lot of ill will and distrust. The people involved were experienced members who definitely knew better, or should have known.

So, in the thread you refer to you state that you were only seeking clarification and if you were too slow then that is ok. Thank you, that is precisely what the admin team would expect and attempt to enforce by the rules. However, there was another member in that thread who sent a PM, and the two of you together triggered me to think something was likely to go wrong, just like in the example above, so I posted another caution.

What you do not know is the other PM did contain an offer, and it was accepted by the seller. You have no idea reading the thread, do you? Now, if you or another member had decided to buy it, and posted "I'll take it" in the thread in the 5 hours before the seller requested it be closed we would have had another furball to contend with precisely like the one mentioned earlier. This is why the caution is posted.

This is just one example of why we need silly rules for everyone to ignore. Here are a few more:



A recent widow, trying to sell some very expensive tools from her late husband's workshop, was told in emails by an unscrupulous member she should take his lowball offer and consider herself lucky he is so generous. The tools eventually sold for more than ten times the low ball offer.
Members running silent auctions and selling to the highest bidder, sometimes for a price higher than advertised.
Likewise, some members offer slightly more than the asking price in a PM to try to get the seller to ignore previous offers.
Sellers closing sales without saying who they sold to. Ads were run concurrently on gumtree and other sites, the seller took the best offer - but not the first offer for the price asked in the forum.
Sellers ignoring offers in PMs so they could sell for a pick up and not have to pack and ship as stated in the initial post.
Sellers selling the same item to multiple members in the background then skipping with the money.
Buyers reneging on offers and changing their minds, saying the item was not what was promised on the phone or in a PM.


There are dozens of more instances but members must understand there are a few absolute scum out there just waiting to take advantage. There are also some quite genuine and nice members who get caught up in a furball through circumstances seemingly beyond their control. In both instances following the rules minimises the chance of things going wrong. People should never assume that being a member means the person is trustworthy.

Finally, a word on 'offers'.

Sellers are not to run auctions and best offers are just that. Details are typically sent in PMs and members have no idea if the sale is run ethically. Even though auctions are not allowed, a seller MAY state "$500 or best offer". This is clear in the rules (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f90/rules-posting-market-place-forums-150585/#post1467900):

4. Price. Price must be included, add ONO (Or Nearest Offer) if the price is negotiable. If you are not not sure of a price, add a ballpark figure.

For a buyer, "PM sent with offer" does not protect you from an unscrupulous seller (or buyer) unless the final sale price is posted, along with who it was sold to. I could explain why, but this post is too long already. The basic premise is there can be little to complain about if everything is done in the open where it cannot be questioned.

[ubeaut]

There is currently a new Market Place being worked on that will completely change the way transactions are done. Will be more along the lines of eBay, but nothing like it.

It is in the final stages of setup now and will :fingerscrossed: hopefully be up and running sometime in the next couple of weeks. This will change the whole buy/sell/swap thing on here for ever and should take away any doubts as to who is buying and for what price etc plus make payments easier and safer for all via PayPal.

[doug3030]

I've only just come across this thread and, as the mod who made the post, I feel I am best placed to answer.

The short answer.
My response was not a rebuke, it was a caution to everyone about the conduct of sales. To get further information a "PM sent seeking clarification" is sufficient. "PM sent" used to indicate someone wanted to buy it but it was too confusing and unclear to other interested parties.

The long answer (for everyone, this response is not aimed at the OP specifically).

First, the rules are there for some very good reasons, we DO NOT invent them for us (admin), they are there to protect those who complain they have been ripped off, gazumped, mislead, ignored, bypassed, lied to, low-balled, baited and switched, defrauded, sold junk, misunderstood etc.

Most people do not read the rules (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f90/rules-posting-market-place-forums-150585/#post1467900) and just post what they see others doing. The mods have no idea who reads what, but we do develop a kind of "sixth sense" after a while for threads in the Market Place that have the potential to go wrong...........


............


Sellers ignoring offers in PMs so they could sell for a pick up and not have to pack and ship as stated in the initial post.



Greg, Thanks for your insightful reply. You and the other moderators on this great forum do a wonderful job of screening the ordinary members from more garbage than many members would believe. I have seen stuff in other forums I have been involved in both as a moderator and a member that make me really appreciate the work the mods here do.

In my earlier post where I referred to my attempted purchase of an item in the marketplace here: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f221/chuck-bowl-jaws-pantograph-sandstone-point-150754/ and the resulting fallout, what the whole experience brought into focus for me was that even though the marketplace is on the woodwork forums, and has a set of rules, the moderators really have no power to enforce the rules. As soon as someone sends a PM, email, or makes a phone or face to face contact, then the transaction is no longer in the thread for all to see.

Even if all transactions Do take place in the thread, the mods still do not have any means of enforcing the rules if the seller and buyer want to be unscrupulous. The one little corner of the woodwork forums called the marketplace probably causes more angst than the rest of the sub-forums put together and we should all thank Neil for allowing such a valuable service to continue, when I am sure he has considered cutting it off more than once.

Groggy mentioned "Sellers ignoring offers in PMs so they could sell for a pick up and not have to pack and ship as stated in the initial post"

The best way I have seen this handled recently, I think it was Grumpy John, selling a panel saw, advertised as pickup only. Someone asked about freighting it somewhere and he said that if they wanted to do that he wanted $250 to dismantle and pack it if they wanted to do something he had not included in the original offer, I think that was very fair as he was indicating that he was prepared to do more than he posted in the original thread if someone was prepared to pay more for doing so. A good compromise.

But the bottom line is that the whole marketplace is based on TRUST and HONESTY. As Greg pointed out just because someone is a member of the forum does not mean that they are honest and trustworthy. I would like to think that if I was dealing with a forum member who has over 1000 posts to his credit and is possibly one of the most active sellers in the marketplace, that I was dealing with a man with a proven track record. Well I was wrong!!!

Interestingly, I have received private communications from members since I linked that thread into this one advising me that they have had problems with THE SAME SELLER. But because they did not have any proof because they negotiated using PM's emails and phone calls THEY DID NOT REPORT IT.

Guys, let the moderators know NOW. I will not pas it on because it was told to me in confidence but the Mods NEED to know this stuff.

If people do not speak up when someone does the wrong thing by you it leaves them free to do it to someone else.

Now there is also the other side of the coin:

I guess I cant say that he was "bad" seller, but I wonder if he thinks I am a "bad" buyer.

I think it was about a year ago, I bought a woodworking book through the marketplace. Once the seller confirmed that I was the successful buyer I sent a PM with my postal address and asking for is bank account details. As I recall it the whole transaction was about $25.00. A week later the book turned up in the post but I never got a return PM with the bank account details. I sent several PM's over a number of weeks and Emails through the forum, and I think from memory I also posted a request in the thread for hism to respond to the pm's, before the mods closed the thread, but I never got any details on how to pay for the item. I did not have a return address on the parcel to send a snail mail asking for details or even to return the article. I feel guilty opening the book as i do not feel that it is rightfully mine even though I have made every reasonable attempt to pay for it. I would appreciate anyones thoughts about that transaction and what you would do

Doug

[Scott]

There is currently a new Market Place being worked on that will completely change the way transactions are done. Will be more along the lines of eBay, but nothing like it.

It is in the final stages of setup now and will :fingerscrossed: hopefully be up and running sometime in the next couple of weeks. This will change the whole buy/sell/swap thing on here for ever and should take away any doubts as to who is buying and for what price etc plus make payments easier and safer for all via PayPal.

Your benevolence is astounding. Thank you, I look forward to seeing the new market place :)

[adeben]

Thanks, Groggy, for a most comprehensive reply to my original question. The procedure you outline is eminently sensible, and should minimize conflicts if it is generally followed.
However, let me return to the advice given in the Rules as posted at the head of the Market forum: (and which I read before posting!)

For the Buyer:
14: Noticed a Problem? etc
I noticed that the age of the machine being offered was not mentioned, and this could affect the price I was prepared to pay. Therefore, as advised by Clause 14, I sought advice 'via a Private Message (PM) to the Seller', and posted that I had sent one.

16: You Want It? When an offer to buy is made, post a 'I'll Take It' in the thread.

I did not make an offer, so only posted that I had sent a PM.

Now I understand that I should have posted 'PM sent for further info', but that was NOT the advice then and STILL given in the Rules.
That was why I originally asked what the Moderators thought that "PM SENT" meant, when that seemed to be what I was advised to do, but the posting of which can seem to lead to confusion. Perhaps clearer advice in the Rules for Buyers might be useful. It's a pity that such seems necessary: all transactions I have had on the Market Forum have been most amicable and satisfactory.

[Groggy]

I see your point. The rules have been adjusted to clarify this issue.

14. Noticed a problem? If you think there is something wrong with an item for sale that needs to be clarified, such as price or damage, please do it via a Private Message (PM) to the seller. The seller should then post any further clarification in the thread. The buyer should not post "PM sent" unless he/she details why eg "PM sent to clarify the freight options". "PM sent" by itself confuses people into thinking an offer has been made when it has not.


I don't want to put too much into the rules as people won't read them and the new system will eventually make them redundant anyway.