Ceiling Battens?

[John99]

Hello everyone

Just about up the ceilings on the extension, the question is when I get to the ceilings should I just fix them to the roof trusses (timber) nail and glue them, or should I fit roof battens to fix the gyprock to?

Is there an advantage in fitting battens or not?, will they make the ceiling straighter or stop it from cracking ? and if i use battens can I use metal battens or timer battens? if I use metal battens do I glue or screw the gyprock to them?

Is there anyone that can help me out ? or has done this before?

thanks John

[bitingmidge]

John,

Always use battens!!

If for no other reason than the bottom chord of trusses are (should be) pre-cambered to enable them to settle level, and particulary in a hip/valley situation the truss loads will not be equal, therefore differing amounts of deflection!

The trusses SHOULD be fixed to the top plates of the walls to enable movement to occur initally.

Fit off your battens level after the roof has been installed and all should be Jake!

Metal is probably easier and cheaper these days.

Cheers,

P

[namtrak]

Personally I would screw and glue the gyprock up onto steel battens. I find it pretty straightforward. Get your battens up, get some mates around with cordless drills, plaster screws, glue and gyprock drill bits (these are special bits which make sure you dont break the paper on the gyprock sheets)

Make sure your battens are square and circle the outside of the ceiling. Also try to screw as much as possible in the 'indents' in the plaster although hiding the holes is not such a drama

Cheers

[Barry_White]

Trusses are usually set at 600mm, 900mm, or 1200mm depending on the type of material used for the trusses e.g. timber, (Pine or hardwood) or steel and the type of roofing e.g. tiles or metal.

12mm Plaster board requires 600mm centres on the battens and 10mm plater board requires 450mm centres on the battens.

The best thing about metal battens they come with clips that nail or screw to the side of the truss and allow you to string line them and get the ceiling level

Rondo is probably the biggest manufacturers of ceiling battens.

As Biting says metal is probably cheaper and easier to work and timber went out with button up boots.

When fixing you should use a screwdriver with a nose cone on it so it sets the screw at the correct depth.

When using metal battens you glue and screw the plaster board using "S" point self drilling screws. Boral and other sites will give you details on how to fix it or any hardware store will have fixing instruction brochures.

[ozwinner]

went out with button up boots.
Gees, talk about being a downer....

Al :(

[Barry_White]

Why is that Al? Are you still wearing them.

[boban]

I have built many houses, units, townhouses etc. I have never used battens on roof trusses and neither do any of the project home builders. I have used battens on suspended ceiling systems (manufactured by Rondo) but that is different to this situation.

You fix directly to the trusses. If you are working by yourself or with an inexperienced person then hire a lifter from any hire shop. It will make the whole process simple.

The fixing of plasterboard relies mainly on glue not screws or nails. See the manufacturers websites. Only the edges of the boards are permanently screwed.

Plasterboard (available from Boral, CSR and Pioneer(La Farge)) is made in a number of thicknesses for different purposes. The garden variety is made as either 13mm or 10mm thick sheets in either 1200mm or 1350mm widths in various lengths. For ceilings, all the manufacturers have a 10mm board designed for 600mm centres. It is called Uni-span or Span 600 etc. Otherwise you can use 13mm without a problem.

Forget the battens unless you have had extremely bad carpenters at your place.

If you have any doubt go up into your existing roof of your house or 10 of your mate's houses and see if they have battens.

Further, installing battens won't solve your uneven ceiling scenario, because you then have to pack each batten at the point it cross the ceiling joists. As this would vary from truss to truss, it would take forever to do. That's why the suspended ceiling system is used when covering concrete slabs and other products such as "ultrafloor".

As far as the cambering of the trusses are concerned, there is no way on earth you will pick it up without a long straight edge. Mind you if you are going to do that I can assure you that if you go around your house and stick the straight edge on the walls, they will not be perfect either. Built into every Australian Standard that deals with building there is a certain degree of tolerance.

I have been involved with many court cases dealing with building matters (that is primarily what I do) and I can assure you that the perfect house is a myth.

[Spear]

So - what happens if your trusses don't allow you to fit your ceiling sheets? Case in point - I have a house that is 20 metres long and 8 metres wide - a rectangle. I put a steel framed extension of 4.2 metres width along the entire length of the house with my roof trusses giving me a skillion roof that cut up into my existing gable roof. Now - the trusses run out from the existing building to the soffits, which means that the undersides of the trusses run across the room/s for a distance of 4.2 metres to the external wall with another 900mm of eaves. I needed to put up 4200 x 1200 Gyproc sheets for the ceiling which obviously had to run in the same direction as the trussess. Try to tell me that I didn't need battens! You're right about steel being the way to go. Light, square and as straight as a die. I found when screwing the flooring, walls and ceiling sheets that a "Tek Gun" was the way to go. It's an electric drill with a shroud over the chuck that allows you to pre-set the depth to which you sink your screws (WingTeks) to avoid pulling through too far and damaging your exposed surfaces. And that prompts me to mention - from another thread somewhere - that I used paper jointing tape when plastering. And for what it's worth I did the whole project myself - from the plans (I'm trained as a draftsman), and the pier pads all the way to the roof. I even wired the place myself under the guidance of a brother who is an electrical engineer. All checked, double checked and certified. Why, the place even passed Council's inspections all the way.

[boban]

Spear - You wrote "I needed to put up 4200 x 1200 Gyproc sheets for the ceiling which obviously had to run in the same direction as the trussess."

Assuming your trusses are spaced at 600mm centres or less, the reason I assume you used battens was because you want to avoid butt joins which would be needed if you were going to place sheets over 6m in length. Here I assume the length was either 8 or 20 metres. But where you dont mind butt joints (and yes they are common and accepted practice) or the length of sheet required is less than 6m then you simply fix the sheets horizontally. 3 full sheets of 1200 and one cut to 600mm would have covered the area you describe (4200). The number of joints should not be much different.

I'm not saying that you never use battens, but it is rare and not necessary purely because you are fixing to the bottom chords of trusses.

As for the balance of what you say, paper tape, and tek screwdriver, spot on.

[John99]

I have a hip roof on the extension so I have trusses running in both directions in each of the rooms. I thought that to get a better finish it would be better to use battens. Some how I can picture the ceiling going up easier if I use battens
this may or may not be the case

When I started with this extension I didnt have a clue how to anything to do with building work, but I did make a foot stool about 25years ago in a woodworking class at school, so I thought I`d build on my knowledge from there ;-).

Lucky I stumbled across these forums in my search for information on building and after many days of hard work I would now say I know a very limited bit about a lot of things and it would of been a hell of a lot harder without the help of everyone that provides advice here so thank you all.

Back to the ceiling I think I may use battens because when I was putting up the trusses and roof didnt give much thought to the bottom chord and how level they should be so I think I will get a bit better finish if I use battens

Attached a couple of pics of the ceiling or where its going to go :-)

[boban]

John, you're battens will still have to be placed in the opposite direction to the chords, so that side of things will remain the same unless you put noggins betweent the chords. You simply turn the gyprock sheets at this point.

The level of the bottom chords should have been determined the level of the top plates of the external stud walls.

As I said previously, there are tolerances in the industry. I would not be concerned with level of the ceiling so much (within reason) as I would with sudden variances in levels where the bottom chords. If the ceiling is not level say 10mm over the length of the room, this you will not notice, nor will it cause you any problems in finishing the job well. That said a 10mm variance over 600mm would definitely be noticeable. Then you would get the wave effect if its in the middle of the ceiling. But the same wave would be present at the top plate.

The same can be said for sudden changes where the bottom chords meet.

I hope I dont come across as a uneducated know it all, I'm just trying to give you the benefit of my experience to save you some time.

Before you go ahead with the battens, nail 2 nails 10mm below the level of the bottom chords and run string line across the room. If the distance (10mm) is reasonably well maintained then you should be right to sheet up.

If not then simply screwing the battens to the bottom chords will not solve the problem. As I said previously, you need to be able to adjust the levels at different points. After all, this is the reason your'e thinking about doing it in the first place. To do otherwise would just simply transfer the same levels down by the thickness of the batten.

I hope I have expressed myself well enough.

[John99]

I did originally order the gyprock sheets so they would go the length of the rooms with no butt joins at the end of the sheets, but in what your saying would I run the sheets across the trusses in one direction and across the hip trusses the other way and would I join the sheets along the hip truss that goes out to the corner of the room at a 45 degree angle? is this what you mean?

I'm not sure if I would have enough gyprock to have to cut the sheets at a 45 degree angle? if this is what you mean?

[boban]

I did originally order the gyprock sheets so they would go the length of the rooms with no butt joins at the end of the sheets, but in what your saying would I run the sheets across the trusses in one direction and across the hip trusses the other way and would I join the sheets along the hip truss that goes out to the corner of the room at a 45 degree angle? is this what you mean?

I'm not sure if I would have enough gyprock to have to cut the sheets at a 45 degree angle? if this is what you mean?
No, not quite, the gyprock is laid across the chords at 90 degrees. Where the chords change direction, so does the gyprock. This is where you would have the butt joins. If you need me to I will draw what I am trying to say.

[boban]

I just had a closer look at your photos.

What your best off doing is placing noggins at 600 cc where the chords change direction.

By the way I am assuming you are using 10mm span 600 type plasterboard. If you are using 13mm you dont need to worry about the noggins as plasterboard can be laid both along the chord (as they do in commercial fitouts) or as is usually done at 90 degrees to the chord. You just need to be using the right board for the spans involved. Thats the limitation you have with span 600. It cannot be laid with the chord as it was engineered to be laid @ 90 degrees to the chords.

If the centres were 450 you could lay with the chord as long as you backblock the joins.

Any way from what I see in the photos you only have a little section where it goes in a different direction. All you need to do is put in noggins.

I hope I haven't confused you too much, sometimes I do get carried away with detail and not focus on the problem at hand

[John99]

Did go and have a good look at what I was going to do this arvo only need to put a few ceiling trimmers / nogging in and should work out ok, yes did have 10mm gyprock supa ceiling and it does say it will span 600mm so probably will check level of trusses tomorrow and make a start soon.

[Taffy]

For my 2 penneth, if this is an old house you are restoring then use battens, also for ceilings make sure you get "superceil", it is made for ceilings and is more rigid than wall sheets.

Taffy

[Pulse]

Rondo makes the metal channels, or furring strips. The common one is product number 129, space these at 600mm and fasten them to the bottom chords at about 1200 to 1350mm spacings. Use Rondo P18 plasterer's angle to run around the perimeter of the room. Use a laser level to level the channels and angle for a really shmick solution.

As already suggested all plastering companies make a 10mm plasterboard that can span 600mm in ceiling applications. Supa-ceil (CSR Gyprock), Span 600 (la Farge) and UniSpan (Boral) are some examples. Use a sheet lifter, often the plasterboard place will lend you one for a few days so don't pay Kennards or Bunnings if you don't have to, they cost about $80 per day. Use glue with one screw in the centre. ie SAASAAS from side to side where S=screw and A=adhesive. If you have butt joints then blackblock these with a plasterboard off cut. See the CSR website for more details and installation instructions.

Cheers
Pulse

[journeyman Mick]

For butt joins, Rondo make small sections of furring channel with a camber in them. When these are screwed into place they pull a hollow into the butt join which allows them to be flushed without a "bump". I've never seen any ceilings without battens, most trusses here are at 900 crs (sheet roofing).

Mick

[boban]

For butt joins, Rondo make small sections of furring channel with a camber in them. When these are screwed into place they pull a hollow into the butt join which allows them to be flushed without a "bump". I've never seen any ceilings without battens, most trusses here are at 900 crs (sheet roofing).

Mick
Not much sheet roofing down here, so we generally have 450 and 600mm spacing just like John 99 has in his photos.

I'll keep that butt join furring channel in mind when doing my next long run.

I like the Rondo suggestion but it is just too expensive for most jobs. Running the angle around the perimetre of the room is a good idea, but I would only do it if I was square setting the edge.

It sounds like Pulse has commercial fitout experience.

From the pictures John 99 posted it looks like he needs to worry more about the quality of his joins rather than the level of the bottom chords. After all this is what most people will see.

[BrisBen]

I must agree with Pulse

But if you want to be pedantic and have a visually perfect ceiling - laser level a rondo type suspended ceiling system; where you run hanging rod from higher points in the apex of the roof with adjustable suspension clips clipped to a top cross rail then furring channels running at right angles to that, then sheet with plasterboard and just to make it interesting run Rondo P50 shadoline stopping beads around all wall/ceiling junctions instead of cornice, have a plasterer apply a level 5 Finish (generally sponged and polished instead of sanded) you'll pretty much be happy...

Then you just have to check if your floor is level

PS - just make sure you don't have any glancing light on the ceiling - everyone knows that will make the joins show up more

http://www.publish.csiro.au/nid/22/pid/88.htm

[pedro53]

Given that the battens should be 450 centres for 10mmm plaster ceilings, the important question is: how far in from the wall/top plate is the first batten? I have assumed that it would be maybe 50 - 100mm, which would then allow the sheet edge fixing to be covered by the cornice? Thanks. Ciao Pedro53

[silentC]

I have never used battens on roof trusses and neither do any of the project home builders.
Not exactly a recommendation of the practice in my opinion. It's not like they're interested in doing the best job, now are they? Project home builders are probably your bread and butter ;)

We battened the ceilings in our place. Didn't add hugely to the cost. The trusses change directions all over the place and there are a few spans that are getting a bit wide for 10mm plaster. We just noggined out accordingly and ran all the battens the same direction over the tops of the internal walls. Yes it makes the plasterer's job easier but when you are paying by the hour, making their job easier is a good thing. Nice long recessed joins and alternating butt joins. Easy to finish. Wouldn't consider doing it any other way.

Most places down here that I have seen being built are battened, but then there are very few McMansion project homes here.

[kyaw19]

Hi. First post on this forum....

Just wanted to know if there was any 'special glue devices' and any 'particular glue' that I would have to use to install the plasterboards to the battens. Also, do I have to apply the glue throughout the whole length of the batten?

[Pulse]

read the installation manual from the manufacturer, use acrylic stud adhesive daubs the size of walnuts - not co-inciding with fixings

Cheers
Pulse

[rod@plasterbrok]

Man I don't know where to start with this one! An old post dug up from the past!! BTW Kyaw19 it is perhaps better to start a new thread for your question in future.

So many areas of good advice and bad in this thread! So I will add my bit seeing it will be re-read again.


Never change the direction of the plasterboard in a room. Nog out the change in direction either for fixing plaster board 600 (asuming ceiling board) centers or battens 900 centers for nail up metal battens or 1200 centers for furring channel. Then run all the sheets one way to eliminate butt joins where ever possible.

You don't need a full suspended ceiling system to get a flat ceiling. Battens on clips will do the job. How you go about it depends on if you have a laser level or not. If not flick a chaulk line around the perimeter to straighten along the cornice line. Put up the outside battens to this line then flick a line across the top of the clip from one side to the other. Put all the clips up to this line.

Double screw the center of the board helps eliminate pop nails.

Always run sheets 90 degrees to framing members regardless of the sheet thickness. BTW most brands of 10mm ceiling board have betters sag resistance than 13mm board.

Use battens only if you need to straighten the ceiling if the trusses are ok save your money! No other benefit in battens.

1st batten about 20mm off the wall then screws will be covered by cornice or square set.

The most important area to have dead level is the perimeter.

This whole scenario is not difficult. Each project must be considered individually as to the need for battens or not, and or the method of installation.

The common factors are:

If you need to drop the ceiling to cover steel work etc. Use battens with clips, (up to 120mm drop) If the drop is more use suspended ceiling.

If you need to staighten a ceiling use battens with clips.

If your trusses are straight but you want to batten anyway just screw to the bottom of the truss.

If you use standard plaster board batten at 450 centers.

If you use ceiling board batten at 600 centers.

If your trusses are 600 or 900 centers use metal nail up battens.

If your trusses are 1200 then use furring channel.

If you fix plasterboard direct to the truss nog hips at 600 centers. Nog the hip so the board will be the shorter length.

If you use a metal batten nog hips at 900 centers again work it so the sheet is the shortest length.

If you use furring channel then nog the hips at 1200 centers.

Fix plasterboard according to manufactures instructions. Minimze butt joins.

Phew!

Cheers Rod

[kyaw19]

Thanks for the advice.

Are they any problems associated with the glue application for installing plasterboard to batten that you guys have experienced such as quick drying of glue, labour intensive etc......

[rod@plasterbrok]

Just use standard Stud Adhesive.

I guess any thing like liquid nails etc. will work ok, but most other options are far more expensive due to the quantity you need to put on.

When glueing plasterboard it is essenstial that the glue daubs sit very proud of the framing so when the board is press against the glue is spreads out.

If you only wipe the glue onto the stud or if you just use a narrow bead, like that produced by a caulking gun, you run the risk of the glue not being adhered to the back of the sheet.

This will result in drummy walls or saging ceilings.

Glue can develope a thin skin very quickly, if the daubs a large enough this skin is broken and you will get good adheasion. With flattish daubs the thin skin won't be broken and as a result the glue is useless.

Application straight out of the tub with a 2" or 3" scraper is the best.

Cheers Rod

[mic-d]

I'd like to be rude and hijack the thread to ask my own question about this rondo stuff. I'm just lining a downstairs room to make another bdrm and the timber floor joists were very up and down and their height was only just over the 2430mm so I could not run the battens at right angles to the joists or the ceiling would have been below height. I used 50x38 rough pine battens screwed along the joists to give me a flat surface, but there's a bit of work in getting these battens trued up. So is there a steel product that can be used as a substitute for this exact application?

Cheers
Michael

[rod@plasterbrok]

Yes Michael,

You could use 16mm furring channels. Pt. No 308 (Rondo), they can be put on with a side mounted clip Pt. No 226. Or pt no. 301 nail up battens also 16mm clip part no is 304. The furring channel can have clips at 1200 centers and the nail up battens at 900 centers.

With the 10mm plasterboard this should keep you average height over 2.4.

If you really had to screw something to the side as you proposed with the battens. You could use a 40mm metal plate as used to construct a metal stud wall. These will be much straighter than timber battens. Obviously doing it this way will be harder to straighten than battens on clips.

Cheers.

[smithi]

I have two stories. The first floor is supported by metal Z-section joists spaced as 600. I was going to glue and screw the ground floor ceiling directly to these but a plasterer I spoke to said it would be too hard to screw into these (the screw would pull through the plaster he said). He suggested I batten the lot.

Any experience fixing to thick metal (1.9mm I think)?

If I batten across the joists how should I support the ends of the battens near interior walls (where they are not close to joists)?

How far from the wall should I put the first and last batten?

Cheers,
Ian

[rod@plasterbrok]

Purlins are hard to screw directly to, although not impossible. The screw required is a dill point bugle head screw.

Having said that it is much easier to screw a rondo pt no. 237 clip direct to the purlin with a 12mm button head drill point screw.

If the purlin has a lip, (most do), there are clips that slip over the lip which the furring channel attaches to. The only problem with these clips, is that you are limited with adjustment.

These clips come in various sized depending on the lip of the purlin.
Pt. No. 386 = 13mm
Pt. No. 387 = 16mm
Pt. No. 332 = 19mm
Pt. No. 388 = 22mm
Pt. No. 385 = 25mm

The next method you could use that will give you adjustment is a Pt. No. 226 clip screwed with a 12mm drill point screw to the flat side of the purlin.

Typically you would start about 20mm to 40mm from the wall with the fist channel. Then dependent on which type of plasterboard you will use either 450mm centers fro standard board, or, 600mm centers for ceiling board.

Use a furing channel wall track at the ends if there is no purlin to clip to. This is a 28mm track that screws to the wall, the end of the furring channel fits into this track and the first fixing can be 1200mm away from the wall.

All fixings fro furring channel can be 1200mm apart.

Hope this helps.

Cheers Rod.

P.S if anyone else wants to post a question on battens it might be best to start a new thread. This one is getting a bit long.

[raedan]

Boban I thinks you are talking rubbish if you fix plasterboard to trusses it will crack because of the movment in the timber over time the only reason not to use metal battens is to cut cost and you sound like thats your go.:D

[raedan]

[quote=raedan;588021]Boban I thinks you are talking rubbish if you fix plasterboard to trusses it will crack because of the movment in the timber over time the only reason not to use metal battens is to cut cost and you sound like thats your go.:Dif it's worth doing do it properly