Dog attack

[artme]

Late yesterday our neighbour rang us in teras. Her 8 year old grand daughter had just been savaged by a Mastiff cross dog. The daamage was extensive and the child is undergoing a second lot of surgery right now.

The girl lost a litre+ of blood.

We are all hoping that things turn out for the best.

[wheelinround]

Hope all goes well Arthur and she doesn't come to hate all dogs because of it.

[wolften]

...my wife's and my heart are with the parents at this point and we hope the littley has a speedy recovery from the dog attack.
I will not comment any further as to my opinions on this matter as I detest these stupid so called breeds of dogs...my opinion only

[SAISAY]

I will not comment any further as to my opinions on this matter as I detest these stupid so called breeds of dogs...my opinion only

I am glad you said "so called breeds of dogs"
All this nonsense about "designer dogs" when all they are is an excuse to make money from mutts with no consideration about genetics or temperament.

Poor little girl and poor parents and grandparents too. So much heartbreak because of someone else's stupidity :((
What else can I say except that I hope the little one will recover soon and that there will not be any permanent damage.
SAISAY

[Scott]

So sad. Having 2 girls myself (4 & 5) it breaks my heart that this kind of thing happens. She's in my thoughts. :sayitaintso:

Hope the dog and owners get their just punishment.

[SAISAY]

:sayitaintso:

Hope the dog and owners get their just punishment.

I have yet to see that happen. The irresponsible owner always seems to have an excuse that gets accepted by the authorities.

SAISAY

[ozhunter]

Very tragic indeed. I hope she makes a full recovery. I'd like to know what the dog was crossed with.

I have owned a Mastiff/Ridgeback dog and he didn't have a mean bone in his body. My daughter used to lay in the kennel with him, pull his ears - all the usual kid stuff. Old Ralph would just lay there and take it with his tail wagging. I know several people who have pure bred and cross bred Mastiffs and have never had a problem. Wonder if the cross was Pitbull?

[Scott]

Any dog, regardless of breed, can bite. Ultimately its the owners who are responsible for the dog.

[chambezio]

Very sorry to hear the news. I love kids and I love dogs. My 2 girls grew up with a kelpie/german shepherd. Fairly large and lean but had a wonderful temperament. Even though my girls could do any thing to him/with him they also knew that other dogs could be a danger.
I hope the little girl won't be traumatized now at the sight of any dog.

[artme]

The little girl is fine but very lucky.

One puncture wound from a tooth went perilously close to a major artey and one other tooth penetration actually took a small chip from a vertebra.

One of the blokes present at the time had to repeatedly belt the dog with a heavy lump of wood in orde rto get it to desist.

[specialist]

I hope they did some damage to the mongrel in the process. I'm glad the little girl is alright. I've had my share of dog bites in my youth and was always a traumatic experience.


Robert

[Bushmiller]

Arthur

Dog attack is a very emotive subject. Don't get me wrong on this. Any dog that attacks in this way, to my mind, has to be put down. Once a dog knows he can do it, there is a high probability he will re-offend.

I like dogs, but I am far from stupid about them. For me they are an animal pure and simple. Sometimes they are a delight and sometimes they should be got rid of. The reputation of some breeds often preceeds them. We have had three rottweillers: All of them wooses (is that the right spelling, I'm sure you know what I mean). We don't have a dog now and probably won't again.

Blue cattle dogs (and red) are responsible for as many attacks as any, but that is because there are a lot of them and people take liberties with them not seeing them as potentially aggressive.

Just on the subject of the Mastiff, it is listed in the breed description as being ferocious. It is the Bull Mastiff that is more commonly seen and of an all together different nature. People cross breed them for pigging but this doesn't neccessarily make them aggressive. I knew somebody who bred pig dogs. He told me that if he couldn't leave his dogs with small children he shot them (I think he meant the dogs.) It's a pity more animals are not bred for docility.

I hope your neighbour's daughter recovers well and is not traumatised. A litre of blood in a little girl is a big percentage:oo:.

Regards
Paul

[BobL]

Good post Paul.

My worry about just focusing on the disposal of offending dogs is that it is (necessary) but half arsed solution after the fact.

It is very interesting to see the new Australian Vets Association view on this.

The Australian Veterinary Association (AVA) has released a comprehensive report, Dangerous dogs – a sensible solution (http://www.ava.com.au/sites/default/files/AVA_website/pdfs/Dangerous%20dogs%20-%20a%20sensible%20solution%20FINAL.pdf) which sets out the scientific evidence about dog bite incidents, and explores the factors that influence a dog’s tendency to bite. It demonstrates the ineffectiveness of breed-specific legislation in addressing aggressive behaviour in dogs, explaining that this approach does not increase public safety and is unworkable.

[artme]

Have to agree with you Paul. Many years ago the German Shepardbreeders began breeding for passivity and not aggression. The proof of their success is quite evident with today's Shepards.

Unfortunately things took a slight turn for the worse when a parasitic bug was found in the girl's blood test results. The assumption is that this came from the dog. She is up and walking around
but still in hospital for observation.

The dog has been put down.

[BobL]

Have to agree with you Paul. Many years ago the German Shepardbreeders began breeding for passivity and not aggression. The proof of their success is quite evident with today's Shepards.

That would have been my perception as well but the numbers involved in attacks are still high.
As a border collie owner I am surprised they are even on the list - I think they just appear cuddly but are maybe not as reliable as we think?

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=233424&d=1348032637

[pmcgee]

There are many factors involved no doubt.

For a start - the most numerously owned breeds are more likely to be represented simply because there are more of them.
German Shepherd, Border Collie, Labrador, Staffie, ...

Interesting that the Staffies are high on the list - as they are generally well regarded as a family dog. Just thinking out loud - it may reflect on a segment of society that might tend to have a staffie as a dog, and how likely they are to 'parent' their dog responsibly.

Also there may not be uniform reporting, and/or the reporting likelihood is proportional to the damage caused - so small dogs may be under-reported compared to the actual number of aggressive incidents because - the damage is less, people maybe don't 'take them as seriously', ...

Popular breeds that don't appear high on the list would be a good sign, and the contrary point ... dogs that aren't owned much but are higher on the list should indicate a warning sign.

I wonder if "Husky" (which could mean a few things) even being on the list from 2007 is related to the movies Snow Dogs(2002) and Eight Below(2006). Sometimes breeds get 'trendy' for a while.

Finally - I don't know how well analysed these incidents are by the authorities - perhaps it is getting better these days. The Dog Law in WA refers, or used to, a "vicious dog" at some stage. That is a fuzzy and undefined concept that should be avoided and the details of the incident analysed by qualified experts.
Many dogs - even if they "bite" for whatever reason - can exhibit great control over how they use their mouths. Newspaper reports certainly don't (usually) distinguish between an incident that causes bruises vs light punctures vs deep punctures vs wounds that have torn from side to side from the dog shaking while biting.

A Veterinary Behaviourist that we have heard lecture described an example of a dog that had taken hold of a child's arm - and had held it such that the skin was not being punctured - but the skin was torn in the (understandable) panic in wrenching the dog away from the child. I'm not trying to dictate my own views - just point out that there are possible considerations we as a society could choose to take into account - or not - in such situations.

I am a massive dog lover and long-term dog-trainer - and have worked for many years at behavioural modification with dogs. I am very very sorry to hear about this attack - but also part of me always wonders what the exact circumstances were and how it came about. My default gut feeling is that in many cases it is the dog owners that haven't taken steps to understand their dog, what they can handle and what they can't, to control them properly and take responsibility for the safety of their dog and everyone that interacts with it.

I don't want to minimise the incident at all. I (speaking personally) would like to be sure that if a dog is destroyed that it was indeed necessary, and also that if the owners - or even conceivably the visitor/etc - did not act responsibly that they be held appropriately responsible also.

Dogs are a huge part of the lives of many families - I have the figure of 70% in my head - and there should be more facilities for dog owners, better education and training available, and appropriate laws that will encourage people to get their dogs out and about and learning safely to interact with adults, children, other dogs, etc.

Sorry to go on.

Paul.

[BobL]

There are many factors involved no doubt. . . . .

Absolutely, the Vets association article goes into this in some detail so it is worth a read.

[Bushmiller]

I have started to plough through the vets association article and a most interesting read it cetainly is. I even started to highlight passages with a view to posting them here for reference.

Then I stopped, because at the end of the day, when all the canine psychology is analysed it is still the owners' responsibility to keep their animal in a responsible manner. I don't know the circumstances leading to the attack in question, but even if the girl had tresspassed onto the dog owners property it still shouldn't have attacked.

The child is an innocent and that for me says it all.

There is a macho style cult, luckily I would say in a minority, to have an "assertive dog as a pet." The owner sees it as an extention of their own personality and encourages the animal to be aggressive. This is the type of owner that gets other owners and dog breeds a bad reputation.

The larger and more dominant breeds are particularly exposed to this perception.

Regards
Paul

[fozz]

I know some of you are going to disagree with me but I feel I have to voice my opinion.
I really hope the little girl makes a full recovery and can learn to realise just what joy a dog can give a person.
What I really have a problem with in these cases is that everyone says the poor damn mutt just has to be put down, WHAT ABOUT THE DUMB IDIOT OWNER?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Our laws as they are let these idiots buy or breed these dogs. The dogs are not trained or socialized properly hence they have no idea how to act in our world. We, yes us humans took a savage beast into our campsites long ago and domesticated it, made it a companion for us then when it does something not to our liking we put the poor beast down. Lets not mince words here, the poor animal is murdered for being what it once was and still is in the wrong hands.

The laws need to be changed to make the owner responsible for the dogs action either by fines or jail time that will make the rest of the idiots think twice before owning a dog or for that matter, any animal. At the moment the laws in these cases are at best a slap on the wrist where justice is concern for either the victim of the attack or the poor dumb animal.

Again, I do hope the little girl recovers fully, unfortunately the owner of the dog will have learnt nothing.

Ross.

[souwester]

First I hope she gets well soon and Hope that she gets over the mental scar from the dog..

The law is an ass, we know that..

Dogs learn bad habits from people, my son was bitten on the face by a dog in a park, if I had found the dog or owner, they both wouldn't be here...
He is petrified of dogs(now 14) yet this happened when he was 4 months old.. Dog just ran over and grabbed him on the face, I was 2 ft away laying on the ground as well..
We had a working dog(border collie and quick) with us and she took off after the offending dog but didn't catch it, she wouldn't go too far from us, so returned empty handed..

I grew up with cattle dogs, and they had natural habits that could be a problem if you let them develop, but never had one bite a child, even seen one cry when a friends daughter decided to have a chew on the ear with new teeth..

I have a been around a few dogs, over the years, that I wouldn't trust but only got bitten by my own(I think because I came walking home drunk and as I walked up driveway I was having a go at him, he didn't come home for a few days)..

Bad dogs are created and bad owners are everywhere(too many animal lovers that know little about animals)..

[lightwood]

I know some of you are going to disagree with me but I feel I have to voice my opinion.
I really hope the little girl makes a full recovery and can learn to realise just what joy a dog can give a person.
What I really have a problem with in these cases is that everyone says the poor damn mutt just has to be put down, WHAT ABOUT THE DUMB IDIOT OWNER?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Our laws as they are let these idiots buy or breed these dogs. The dogs are not trained or socialized properly hence they have no idea how to act in our world. We, yes us humans took a savage beast into our campsites long ago and domesticated it, made it a companion for us then when it does something not to our liking we put the poor beast down. Lets not mince words here, the poor animal is murdered for being what it once was and still is in the wrong hands.

The laws need to be changed to make the owner responsible for the dogs action either by fines or jail time that will make the rest of the idiots think twice before owning a dog or for that matter, any animal. At the moment the laws in these cases are at best a slap on the wrist where justice is concern for either the victim of the attack or the poor dumb animal.

Again, I do hope the little girl recovers fully, unfortunately the owner of the dog will have learnt nothing.

Ross.

Ross,
These are tragic. I also know it from another angle. Maybe much different from the incident I remember from last year.
Man fined after child killed by pit bull - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-30/man-fined-over-fatal-dog-attack/4163046)

We had to destroy ( not murder) a beautiful, enthusiastically well trained German Shepperd bitch that attacked and mauled an armed intruder into my then girlfriend's ( now my wife) house some 22 years ago. 6 months after that incident I sat on the couch and watched in horror as that same dog, that saved my wife's life, (or worse) grab my 4 year old nephew by the head and flick him out of the way. It was more than 22 years ago but I still see my brother jump up and kick that dog a meter off the ground.
That was a magnificent dog, we believed it was completely safe around children, but it had become protective-aggressive, and was on a mission to protect my wife and her daughter, even from squealing kids playing chasey in the back yard. We consulted one of the top dog-trainers at the time. He was a specialist in German Shepherds, training dogs for the police, air-force, army etc, and his report was that it was now dangerous, and our thoughts were confirmed.
Can you imagine how hard it was for us to take that dog to the vet a couple of days later??
I have wept over the 3 holes in the ground I've dug to bury 3 magnificent German Shepperd dogs. One that saved my wife's life, and one that saw off a couple of potential thieves at my jewellery shop, and one that died much too young.

I usually don't get involved in these discussions, but uninformed outrage-language gets to me sometimes.

I am more than happy to eat animals, and also to kill them to do so. I cannot understand any characterization of killing an animal as murder.

There is no doubt idiots own dogs...and they try and make up for some deficiency in their own character with a dog they own.


From a recent media report...
The Melbourne owner of a pit bull dog mauled to death a four-year-old girl in 2011.
July 20th 2012, in the Sunshine Magistrates Court in Melbourne's western suburbs 57-year-old Lazor Josevski was fined $11,000 for the dog attack on Ayen Chol.
A dog owner could now be jailed for up to 10 years if a similar attack were to occur.

I hear people talk about these incidents...often parroting the outrage of uninformed commercial radio shock-jock-speak, and I believe that the solution might better be had by putting firm, well informed, relentless and reasonable pressure on the law makers. That, and that horrible tragedy, is probably what informed the most recent law changes in this type of incident.

Regards,
Peter

[pmcgee]

It is a very sad topic all the way round.


Bad dogs are created and bad owners are everywhere

I'd also like to add that good people can end up with "bad" dogs - and they are a lot of work - but very rewarding when you make progress.

But also - "good" dogs need to be actively created too - and even then things happen - as per Peter's post.

Sure it might often happen mostly by accident, but people should ideally be educated towards all the things that dogs should be exposed to, and when, and not exposed to, and when. And then more good opportunities for them to learn and interact ... with good supervision ...

Can hope ... :rolleyes:

Paul

[SAISAY]

I have absolutely no doubt that this attack was totally unprovoked and I am aching for that little girl.

However, those males who were beating the dog with a stick (or something like that) were obviously not aware that is the worst possible thing that can be done to a dog when it is in attack mode.
The more it is hit, the more aggressive it becomes, it feels no pain, just think of dog fights, no matter how much the dogs are hurt, they keep on fighting.

If anybody is ever in that situation, remember the best method is to grab the dog by the hindlegs and swing it around on its back. At the same time squeeze the feet as hard as possible. That is the only pain a dog in attack mode can feel.
That's the way we separated our stud dogs, when they got into a disagreement.

Sometimes these so-called attack are very difficult to understand though.
When I worked as a vet nurse, I came to work one day and saw a beautiful boxer male that had been put down.
When the owner came to collect him, he was crying over his dog.
I asked him why the dog had been put down and he told me the council had demanded it, because he had bitten a young boy.
I couldn't believe a boxer would do that and asked the owner why the dog bit.
You would never believe the answer.

The boy had entered the dog's yard, then been sitting for half an hour hitting the dog on the head with a hammer before the dog retaliated, he never drew blood at all, just grabbed the boy's hand.
THAT'S whats I would call murder of an animal.

Years ago we were discussing in the boxer club what to do about the dog problem.
One came up with a very simple solution:

Every male that is not registered for breeding purposes must be neutered.
Why?
Because one dog can mate every bitch in the district but one bitch can, at the most have 2 litters per year.

This would also mean that the owner of a registered breeding dog would know which bitches he had been mated to and be responsible for the outcome.
I am willing to bet that if the irresponsible idiots had to pay a stud fee, they would think twice about breeding their bitch.

My sincere opinion is, that the animal should not have to be registered, the owner should and, if the dog is not kept under control, it is the owner's responsibility, not the animal's.
Animals are what they are taught to be like.

I know of 2 of the biggest dogs I have ever seen. They are used for pig hunting.
These 2 dogs have been taught that once they have their breastplate on, they are meant to be hunting and they will kill a pig as easy as.
BUT, once the breastplate is taken off, they are the biggest sooks I have ever seen.
They also know that the owner is the alpha dog and they have to do as they are old.
They are never allowed to leave the property unless they are in the tray of the ute.
That's what I call responsible ownership.

Regards
SAISAY

[fozz]

Gday Saisay, and thankyou, I couldnt agree more.

We have to take responsibility for our dogs actions. We can mince words when we destroy, put down or the word I used, murder a dog when it is deemed that said dog has done something wrong but the dog only knows what we teach it. We as the dominant party in the human/dog relationship have to take absolute responsibility for the dogs actions. I'll say it again, the dog is what we make it.

We now have these laws that say if the dog has done something wrong or has the wrong pedigree, it is to be locked up, tie up, muzzled and even put down, destroyed, murdered just because some stupid human was not responsible for his or her actions.

Saisay, you stated that the owner of the dog should be registered instead of the animal, again, couldnt agree more.

If you take a life with a gun, knife or bare hands you get locked up for a good portion of your life. If your dog did the same thing and the same penalties applied, people would think twice about their choices concerning the dogs they own or breed.

[pmcgee]

If anybody is ever in that situation, remember the best method is to grab the dog by the hindlegs and swing it around on its back. At the same time squeeze the feet as hard as possible. That is the only pain a dog in attack mode can feel.
That's the way we separated our stud dogs, when they got into a disagreement.


Can I just suggest ... Boxers aren't all that big/heavy dog-wise ... we have Alaskan Malamutes ... I wouldn't advise trying to wrestle them too much.

I also don't know about the feet, but squeezing the balls may get them to let go.

First ... if you can ... evaluate whether this is something that needs to be immediately separated. I guess I am talking more dog-dog fight than a dog with a person. Two people to do this is a much better idea than one - although sh_t happens sometimes.

Sometimes it might be one holding the other by the cheek/scruff/nose and they've got to a point where they are both in a panic but mainly come to a standstill - and holding them and not injecting more anxiety and aggro into the picture and looking for the best opportunity to separate them is the best idea.
Kicking and shouting generally amps things up - it's better to be calm.

Grabbing two hands together under the legs/groin area, or by the legs is a good plan - you can each pull in different directions, and you don't want to get near the sharp bitey end. If they are then trying to go for you, you can move backwards and in a circle keeping them off balance.

Many dogs will settle right down once they've been separated a certain amount. Even then be back together and ok if they were friendly before - but it is best to keep them a bit separated and allow them closer very gradually to allow the hype and adrenaline to subside.
(That's assuming they are both your dogs)

Paul

[Koala-Man]

Peter, I don't want to sound too snarky, but are you trying to tell us that you believed a German Shepherd - a guard-dog breed - which had previously "attacked and mauled" someone (OK, an intruder who had no legal right to be on your property, but this is a dog, not a lawyer) was "completely safe around children"?

Seriously?

[BobL]

While I agree with Paul that training is much better than no training, just like a very highly trained soldier can break under pressure or be confused in a new situation, no matter how well trained a dog is around children, if they are trained as guard dogs they can do the same so one still needs to be vigilant with them especially around kids.

Sometimes I think neutering the owners rather than the dogs would save a lot of problems (not just involving dogs) in the long run.

[Bushmiller]

Inspector Rex only exists on the TV. In real life a dog has limited intelligence (a bit like humans really) and to expect it to differentiate between good and bad people is asking too much. Dog owners have to accept responsibility for their animals or keep them contained.

Having lived in country areas for a long time we frequently have the problem of wild dogs. They are not of course dingos, but dogs from towns left to roam. That docile pet when teamed up with a pack of other roaming dogs reverts to its instincts and becomes a killer.

These surprise attacks such as the eight year old girl, and the not so surprise attacks, are probably where the dog reverts just for a second. Unfortunately, that's all it takes. As to the question of putting the dog down (that in itself is a euphemism so I am really not going to pussy foot about how the animal's life is ended) I don't see that there is an alternative once the stage of an attack has been reached. Who is going to put up their hand for clemency and how would that person feel if another attack occured?

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Arthur

Any updates on your neighbour's daughter? Do you have any further information on how the incident occured? We seem to have become a little bogged down on to what extent animals and owners are responsible and have started to neglect the casualty:-.

Regards
Paul

[pmcgee]

Yes - very true - but it is one of those hard issues that we hope we get through life avoiding.

- - -

Not to excuse anything - but just a sense of the proportions:

100-150 children might be killed by dogs in the US in a year ... 2000-3000 children by their own parents.

(heard in 2000 at a 3 day seminar)

Paul

[SAISAY]

Can I just suggest ... Boxers aren't all that big/heavy dog-wise ... we have Alaskan Malamutes ... I wouldn't advise trying to wrestle them too much.

I also don't know about the feet, but squeezing the balls may get them to let go.

Paul

As a vet nurse, I happened to be around all sizes of dogs and it worked on all of them. I agree that we also spread the legs apart so it was impossible for the dog to twist his back around and bite.
As another comment, bitches don't have balls and they can fight too.
Cheers
SAISAY

[pmcgee]

As another comment, bitches don't have balls .... and they can fight too.
Cheers
SAISAY

I don't know whether to say

- can they ever, or

- you tell them that

:D
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I don't know whether to say

- can they ever, or

- you tell them that

:D
Paul

Didn't Kipling have something to say about the female of the species? Perhaps that was bears :? .

Regards
Paul

[artme]

Little girl is still under close observation for 3 reasons

*Parasitic bug acquired as a result of the attack

*she vomited while under anesthetic and this caused lung prolems

* she now has a clot in her jugular vein!

So this brings in aspects I had never thought of. The bites and scratches have become the least of her worries!!

Apparently the attack occured at a friends place wher there about 8 or so girls of the same age playing. The mother called them for lunch and as the girls ran squeeling up the stairs the dog grabbed the last one in line - our neighbours grand daughter.

It has also come out that since that attack a second Mastiff owned by ther same people attacked and mauled another child. It to was put down

Rotten!! no matter how you look at it this was a rotten train of events.

[specialist]

Rotten!! no matter how you look at it this was a rotten train of events.


Ain't that the truth!

[pmcgee]

Little girl is still under close observation for 3 reasons

*Parasitic bug acquired as a result of the attack

*she vomited while under anesthetic and this caused lung prolems

* she now has a clot in her jugular vein!

So this brings in aspects I had never thought of. The bites and scratches have become the least of her worries!!

Apparently the attack occured at a friends place wher there about 8 or so girls of the same age playing. The mother called them for lunch and as the girls ran squeeling up the stairs the dog grabbed the last one in line - our neighbours grand daughter.

It has also come out that since that attack a second Mastiff owned by ther same people attacked and mauled another child. It to was put down

Rotten!! no matter how you look at it this was a rotten train of events.


Terrible consequences - for girl, dog, and both sets of parents. We were all saddened by this story I think.

Any more news on her Artme?

Paul

[artme]

Some good news: Little girl ( Jenny ) is back home after a couple of weeks in Townsville hospital.
She is in good spirits but there are some problems still.

Still has two lots of medication per day for the parasitic bug.
Still has the chipped bone in the neck.
Still has a blood clot in her Jugular that requires daily Warfarin treatment until it is disolved. Lots of potential problems there.

Getting someone to listen to claims for compensation is proving difficult. Two well known law firms have already put obstacles
in the way of this.

It is incomprehensible to me that this sort of thing should not be automatically be the subject of compulsory compensation.