Canned petrol

[Bushmiller]

Have any of you ever bought fuel at a fuel station in a can? Recently I arrived at the local (fuel station, not the other local:rolleyes:)with three small cans on the back of my table top ute. They were tied down with a single strap as I normally have the sides and tail gate removed.

The woman at the till had a small go at me because I had not taken the cans off the ute to fill them. She said the regulations stated I had to put them on the ground to fill them and the company rules were that if customers didn't do this it was instant dismissal for the staff involved.

The reason she gave, and presumeably had been given, was that the cans were not earthed. I suspect there is some confusion there. These cans of mine, which were designed for fuel, were between five and ten litres so not too heavy. It would have just been an issue to untie the cans. Probably a bit different if I had bought in a 60 litre drum the way I used to once upon a time. In fact I used to fill a 44gal drum with diesel, although in this case I am talking petrol.

Can anybody explain the rationale behind this requirement and the difference between fueling the vehicle and the cans sitting on the deck? Why is one act safe and the other not?

Regards
Paul

[pmcgee]

I believe it is supposed to be related to building up a static charge by dragging your shoes on carpet.

I believe this has happened - as opposed to the whole mobile phone idea.

I'm guessing the travelling car with the wind "rubbing" over it can build up a charge - I have felt a small zap sometimes reaching for a door handle to get in a car, or brushing with my elbow.

I guess the "grounding" (literally) is meant to equalise the container potential with the ground potential ... I guess to avoid any spark when the nozzle goes into the container. I think that would be just as avoidable by placing your other hand on the vehicle/tray/container before and until the nozzle goes into the container. Holding the nozzle by the metal part if that feels safer.

Anyways ... I think that's approximately the thinking.

Cheers,
Paul

[SAISAY]

It is a fact of life that not all people have common sense.
I have seen people jump into the tray of the ute/truck to fill up can some even with a cigarette in their mouth, no grounding at all.
Not everybody use steel cans with a bare steel tray in their ute, some have carpet or rubber mats.
The rule was brought in when a petrol station in an Adelaide suburb blew up a few years ago.
I suppose one can't really blame the owners for not wanting their livelyhood to go up in flames.
One static spark and kaboomba :burnt:
If you look at the petrol tank in your car or a built-in tank in a boat, they are both grounded to the chassis/hull.
In my book, that is a very small inconvenience for the customer and a big safeguard for the owner.
Diesel is different, it is not volatile.
Cheers
Wolffie

[Cliff Rogers]

It is a rule for people who are not static aware.

Even the vehicle can hold a static charge, haven't you even been bitten when you got out & turned around to shut the door?

When you walk to the pump, you should ground yourself by touching the pump, then pick up the nozzle & walk back to the car & equalise the charge difference on the car by touching it with your other hand, (not the one with the nozzle) before you put the nozzle anywhere near the open fuel filler.
This helps stop the chance of a spark jumping between the nozzle & the filler pipe & possibly igniting fumes.

If you watch an aircraft or a service station being refuelled you will see the tanker driver first attach a 'grounding' or 'earth' strap/cable between the tanker & the object being refuelled. It doesn't have to be connected to ground, it just needs to be connected between the 2 items to equalise any static charge.

Static is funny stuff to understand so some seemingly strange rules need to be put in place.

The action of removing the fuel cans from the vehicle & placing them on the ground helps to reduce the chance of a spark.

If you are static aware enough to equalise the charge between the fuel can & the pump nozzle with your body then there is less chance of a spark but you have to remember to do it.

[nearnexus]

If it was diesel it wouldn't be an issue, but petrol is different.

My understanding is that you should always earth the container to ground as petrol produces significant static when poured between containers - that's why aircraft and fuel delivery tankers are grounded.

If you put the can/container on the ground where it has a direct earth, you have no issue. Being in/on a vehicle the tyres prevent this occuring.

It's not a nylon undies or static build up in the car issue.

Rob

[A Duke]

I think it makes more sense when you consider that most people who bring a can in, have it in the boot of a car or the back of a hatch back or 4 wheel drive.
Regards

[Sir Stinkalot]

Don't the majority of the pumps have a picture on them showing that cans need to be filled by placing them on the ground first, along with the cross through the guy on the motorbike filling up his tank whilst sitting on his bike. I don't think that it is anything new .... although perhaps to those who don't often fill cans!

[nearnexus]

While I can appreciate that it's less likely that static will build up when the can is earthed on the ground, you have to ask yourself the fundamental question on all this.

What's the difference between a can on the back of a ute and a petrol tank attached to a ute?

None that I can see, both are isolated from earth by vehicle tyres, both have a small filler, both have petrol vapours in the free space, both can be zapped by a static charge from a person or phone.

Makes you wonder if it's a bit over the top in the real world.

PS I always put my cans on the ground because I feel safer that way :)

Rob

[SAISAY]

While I can appreciate that it's less likely that static will build up when the can is earthed on the ground, you have to ask yourself the fundamental question on all this.

What's the difference between a can on the back of a ute and a petrol tank attached to a ute?

None that I can see, both are isolated from earth by vehicle tyres, both have a small filler, both have petrol vapours in the free space, both can be zapped by a static charge from a person or phone.

Makes you wonder if it's a bit over the top in the real world.

PS I always put my cans on the ground because I feel safer that way :)

Rob

The fuel tank in a vehicle or boat is earthed to the chassis or the hull of the boat, when refilling the boat the earth goes to the trailer,enough earthing to divert the static spark.

Quite apart from that, imagine knocking over a fuel can while it is in the boot, the back of a wagon or the tray of a ute.
Heaps and heaps of fumes, another car comes in and KOBOOMBA.
If the can is on the ground, it is easy to grab a hose and rinse the fuel off the surface, into the drains or wherever. Every fuel station now has a fuel spillage kit available.
Cheers
Wolffie

[nearnexus]

[QUOTE=Wolffie;1550381]The fuel tank in a vehicle or boat is earthed to the chassis or the hull of the boat, when refilling the boat the earth goes to the trailer,enough earthing to divert the static spark.

If that was the case, planes and fuel tankers wouldn't earth to ground.

Also, the fuel can resting on a metal ute tray would earth just as well/the same as a bolted in fuel tank, no difference. Static will easily jump an air gap to earth.

Rob

[Pac man]

http://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/14694/HSS0057_-_Service_stations_-_Filling_portable_containers_with_flammable_liquids.pdf
http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/formspublications/publications/Documents/filling_fuel_containers_safety_alert_2241.pdf

2 issues it would seem. 1 to minimise static and 2nd to minimise spillage and potential leakage / ignition

Also as it is a regulation / standard it does not have to be logical. It is a response to reduce the risk of some one filling 20 cans inside a landcruiser and lighting the place up again it would seem.

[Chief Tiff]

When you fill your vehicle you are conveniently earthed through the fuel nozzle touching the metal filling point. Static is generated by the flow of fluid through the hose so the whole hose is electrically conductive. Plus, YOU are holding the hose too and you are not very well insulated. Home-made or poorly designed ute trays who relocate the fill point with rubber hoses are a bit of a worry, factory approved trays USUALLY comply.

Portable containers (metal or plastic) are best filled on ground because even though the hose is conductive most containers are filled slowly without the nozzle touching so you can see the level rising, hence the possibility of static building up. And as previously said paint, carpet and tray liners etc will insulate the container.

Oh, diesel will also produce the same static charge as petrol; the difference is that diesel has a flash point of around 70+ plus, it is extremely difficult to ignite. Back in the days when we used to practice putting out diesel fires by setting fire to diesel (bloody environmentalists said it polluted too much!), we found the best way to set diesel alight was by....... pouring burning diesel on it.

[SAISAY]

As I said, some people have a carpet or a rubber mat in the bottom of the tray.
I also believe that the tanks in an airplane or a fuel tanker are a helluva lot bigger than the ones in a car.
Still reckon the biggest danger is knocking it over whilst it is somewhere in the car being filled.
Also reckon common sense is sadly lacking in most people, hence they have to be protected from themselves
Anyways, it is all academic, rules are there to be obeyed whether we agree with them or not.

Sorry chief, I replied to an earlier post before I saw yours.
"Oh, diesel will also produce the same static charge as petrol; the difference is that diesel has a flash point of around 70+ plus, it is extremely difficult to ignite. Back in the days when we used to practice putting out diesel fires by setting fire to diesel (bloody environmentalists said it polluted too much!), we found the best way to set diesel alight was by....... pouring burning diesel on it."
Fire drill in Coastguard, couldn't get the wretched diesel to burn as you just said.
Cheers
Wolffie.

[nearnexus]

Here's a classic case of static igniting fuel.

Gas Station Fire, Static Electricity Starts a Flash Fire. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuZxFL9cGkI)

And it's a fuel tank in a car supposed adequately earthed according to earlier comments.


Rob

[RedShirtGuy]

One thing that's only been loosely touched on by Chief Tiff is that when filling a container, on the ground, you should try and keep the pump nozzle in contact with the container to create a stronger earthing connection rather than holding the nozzle in the air so you can see how much you have in the container.

Like most things it's a rare chance for something to go wrong, but in this case, when it does...hooboy, you'll know it...for a split second.

There's this Mythbusters mini myth showing how static electricity is the primary culprit for fuel station ignitions and that mobile phones have pretty much nothing to do with it.
Mythbusters- Cell Phone Gas Station MiniMyth - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw6-PhvcS3M)
Full version: Mythbusters Cell Phone Destroys Gas Station (1/3) S01E02 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABfIcmIjD0U)

[nearnexus]

[QUOTE=RedShirtGuy;1
Like most things it's a rare chance for something to go wrong, but in this case, when it does...hooboy, you'll know it...for a split second.

Yep, check this one out.


http://youtu.be/1tYO4jvnJHw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tYO4jvnJHw


Rob

[Acco]

Here's a classic case of static igniting fuel.

Gas Station Fire, Static Electricity Starts a Flash Fire. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuZxFL9cGkI)

And it's a fuel tank in a car supposed adequately earthed according to earlier comments.


Rob

Classic case of static, she got out opened fuel cap, touched the bowser which would have got rid of any static build up, puts pump in car, starts fuel flow and then gets in car, gets back out without grounding herself, as she is now carrying static charge from sliding in and out of the car which then causes a static charge when she touches the fuel nozzle.

[Bushmiller]

Thank you for all your comments. My perception is that static electricity can ignite petrol and particularly the petrol fumes. I am sure I have read somewhere that an near empty fuel tank is in fact more potentially dangerous than a full tank.

My main question revolves around how different is the scenario between filling the car and the independent cans? It would seem to me that any spark created as the nozzle is inserted into the can or car fuel tank is a potential problem. The term potential is very apt here as it is the difference and my electrical colleagues often refer to Potential as opposed to Voltage.

Nearnexus' video (thanks for posting) seems to confirm that the possibility of ignition is no different.

I think I'm confused as to the advantage of placing independent fuel cans on the ground. If fuel companies were really concerned about ignition I think we would have to attach an earthing lead before picking up the nozzle.

I have a practical example of how this would work. Quite a time ago we used to have hydrogen delivered by tanker to my workplace. On a particular occasion the flexible hose connection broke at the nozzle during unloading. The hose hose snaked around the place for some while like a cut snake until it finally produced a spark. The hydrogen ignited and the tanker, which was brand new, burnt to the ground. Subsequently a separate wire is run along the hose for security purposes (an industrial equivalent of the safely chain on a wrist bracelet). Also we now have a portable earthing clip, which is attached before unloading hydrogen.

Regards
Paul

[nearnexus]

Hi Paul,

I suppose by putting the cans on the ground and achieving a full and direct earth it pretty much negates the chance of a static fire in this situation.

While that is only a small percentage of fuel fill ups, it is at least one area that can be made safe by this simple action, and fuel companies are doing the right thing in reducing a hazard by this requirement IMHO.

I thought the second video was pretty interesting - shows how easy it can happen, and by the can being on the ground the truck would still be OK and the firies would probably still be doing their landscape gardening and home renovation sidelines.

I have seen fuel hoses on pumps with an external earthing lead to the gun, so it's quite likely that the rubber hose of the others have a metal internal reinforcing mesh (same as hydraulic hoses) to do the same thing.

Rob

[ian]

Have any of you ever bought fuel at a fuel station in a can? Recently I arrived at the local (fuel station, not the other local:rolleyes:)with three small cans on the back of my table top ute. They were tied down with a single strap as I normally have the sides and tail gate removed.

The woman at the till had a small go at me because I had not taken the cans off the ute to fill them. She said the regulations stated I had to put them on the ground to fill them and the company rules were that if customers didn't do this it was instant dismissal for the staff involved.

The reason she gave, and presumeably had been given, was that the cans were not earthed. I suspect there is some confusion there. These cans of mine, which were designed for fuel, were between five and ten litres so not too heavy. It would have just been an issue to untie the cans. Probably a bit different if I had bought in a 60 litre drum the way I used to once upon a time. In fact I used to fill a 44gal drum with diesel, although in this case I am talking petrol.

Can anybody explain the rationale behind this requirement and the difference between fueling the vehicle and the cans sitting on the deck? Why is one act safe and the other not?
Paul

as others have said, it's about static electricity, grounding containers, minimising the chance that an accidental spill ends up sloshing around in side a vehicle AND the general lack of "coomon sense" in the general population.

You containers may have been properly secured and at the same potential as the vehicle, you may have stood on the ground and used the fuel nozzel correctly -- but you can garantee that for every careful person like you there is at least two who are not.

[AlexS]

Funny stuff, static. Back in the '60s, the fuel lines of Boeing 707s were lined with a thin plastic film. Inspections found that after service, some of the linings had small holes in them, caused by static arcing from the flowing fuel to the metal pipe. Because the lines were flowing full, there was no oxygen to allow a fire. Can't remember how it was resolved, maybe they decided it wasn't a problem (but probably not).

[Pagie]

I always take my saw fuel containers out of the car and put them on the ground but I dont take the tanks out when filling the boat. The boat tanks are too heavy but they are not earthed in anyway.

[Bushmiller]

I always take my saw fuel containers out of the car and put them on the ground but I dont take the tanks out when filling the boat. The boat tanks are too heavy but they are not earthed in anyway.

The boat trailer itself would be earthed through the trailer connection, but the boat sits on rubber bushes (I am supposing this as I am not a boat owner) so that sounds correct. There do seem to be some inconsistencies in the reasoning.

Regards
Paul

[FXST01]

And the console operator was so concerned about it she waited till you went to the counter to pay. Most service stations have a PA system for this type of announcement, and can stop/warn you before you do anything stupid.

[Bushmiller]

And the console operator was so concerned about it she waited till you went to the counter to pay. Most service stations have a PA system for this type of announcement, and can stop/warn you before you do anything stupid.

In fact she was agitated. What I didn't tell you was she had been waving her arms at me through the glass window which I had misinterpreted. I had been at the service station earlier in the day only to find they had run out of unleaded.

When I returned their fuel delivery had been made and as I stood with the nozzle in the can I thought she was asking if the fuel was coming through. The reflection on the glass wall made it impossible to see her clearly. I was also chatting to a work colleague who said the petrol was not coming though for his vehicle. I think she must have given up and allowed me the fuel anyway.

It was only as I drove away that I twigged to the real meaning of her gesticulations:-. I don't think they have a pa system.

Regards
Paul