A comparison of three "Tung" Oils

[LGS]

I want to point out the difference that can occur within different "Oils".
Danish Oil is supposed to be Tung Oil, pure and simple.
All three oils used in this comparison are Tung Oil. But some are "more" Tung Oil than others.
Look at the two images below. The first image is that of Cabot's Danish Oil friction sealed into highly figured Red Gum. The second which was contiguous with the Danish Oil, is Liberon Pure Tung Oil treated identically.
The white line I have pointed out is a line of grain going from the Liberon segment into the Cabot's segment. The resolution of the line is greater in the Liberon Oil than in the Cabot's. So if you use Cabot's Danish Oil, chances are you are not going to see very fine gradations in grain.
The third figure shows Wattyl Teak (Scandinavian) Oil and the Cabot's oil. On the Left is the Wattyl Oil and on the right is the Danish. There is more darker, vertical figure present in the Wattyl oil picture than there is in the Danish oil picture.
In fact, pictures 4 and 5 show the entire segment of the board which was oiled with either Pure Teak Oil (4) or the Danish Oil (5). On the whole, the resolution of fine grain is better in the Teak Oil.

So..."oils ain't oils, Sol"

Regards,

Rob

[Dengue]

Thanks for this valuable info, Rob. Where does the Feast Waston China Wood oil fit into the picture?

[LGS]

Hi Jill,

In this experiment, it was as good as the Pure Tung Oil and the Hard Burnishing Oil and maybe a little better than the Wattyl. The burnishing gives it more lustre than I have seen previously. I'd be very happy to use it in place of the Wattyl.

Here's a comparison of (1) China Wood, (2) Wattyl Teak and (3) Liberon Pure Tung Oil.
One thing about the China Wood and the Liberon. Both are names for Tung Oil, just depends on where the nuts were collected. China or South America.
Out of the can, the Liberon was very thick. Liberon suggest diluting up to 50% with White Spirit (White Oil I think) I suspect that the China Wood has already been diluted. At some stage in the very near future (today or tomorrow) I will try doing double dilutions of the Liberon down to 50%, 25% and 12.5% oil with White Spirit and see what happens. If, as I suspect, the oil will happily still present great resolution at 50%. a 500ml can will effectively cost you $17.50!!! And last twice as long as other Oils. Excellent! If it works at 25% even better!!

Regards,

Rob

[LGS]

So...here's the doubling dilutions trial of the Liberon Pure Tung Oil.
Pic 1 100% Tung Oil
Pic 2 50% Tung Oil and 50% White Spirits (Dry Cleaning Fluid)
Pic 3 25% Tung Oil and 75% White Spirits.
I guess I should have run a negative control of White Spirit only....but I didn't!

I'd like others to let me know where they think they'd aim to use the Oil. Pure 50% or 25% dilution. I would opt for the 50% and perhaps the 25% with a longer incubation time. (Incubation was for 25 minutes)
BTW: The raw board was sanded dry to 400, then wet after addition of the oil or oil mix with 400, 800, 1200, 1500, 2000 and 4000 grit. You could stop anywhere in between 400 and 4000 and still get an adequate result.

Regards,

Rob

[Dengue]

Actually Rob, from the photos and my PC monitor, they all look much the same to me, although the 25% oil is a bit paler in places

[LGS]

Point taken, Jill.

Excellent.

Regards,

Rob

[Claw Hama]

Hi LGS, White Spirit is Merican:usa: for Mineral Turps not White Oil. Great comparisons, might have to have a play myself:2tsup:

[LGS]

Hi CH,
Mineral Spirit is 'mericain for mineral Turps.
White Spirits is Dry Cleaning Fluid I found out yesterday! Who knew!!:?

Today I'm going to try out some liquid and some heat on the various oiled segments of the RG board. If they can stand the stress as well as the Hard Burnishing Oil, then we're all in fat city. No need for Poly anymore!
Great Oil finish with poly durability and the bonus of not having to strip back a table top when it gets a small scratch. :2tsup:

Regards,

Rob

[Dengue]

Rob, who makes the Hard Burnishing Oil? Organoil? And where do you get it from?

I thought it was meant for wood turners, with the heat of the burnishing making it go right inot the timber.

How would it go for boxes and frames etc?

Keep up the great work you are doing, it is very educational, and clears up a lot of misconceptions

[LGS]

Hi Jill,

Organoil make Hard Burnishing Oil (HBO).
You can get it from Carbatec for about $37.00/litre or $25.00/500ml. You can also get it at Masters for about $35.00/litre.

HBO is designed for friction sealing, that is, heat from a source is used to burnish the oil into the wood and providing resistance to heat and liquids. The source of heat can be either the heat of friction provided by a Lathe or in the case of us impurists, a Random Orbital Sander. The friction caused by the rubbing action of the sander is sufficient for achieving the burnished result. Organoil recommend using grits up to 1500/2000. I use 4000 just because I can.
You can buy these very high (2000 and 4000) pads from Festool. They have no holes and are synthetic pads. If you have a 150mm ROS, they will fit.
As for the finish on boxes and the like,

Here's some examples,

Regards,

Rob

[LGS]

Well...I've run the tests on the various Oils (all straight from the can) using the following regimes.
1. Cold water dripped onto the oiled timber and left for 10 minutes.(Pic 1)
2. Newly boiled water poured onto the oiled timber and left for 5 minutes. (Pic 3)
3. A boiling pot of water laid flat on the oiled timber (Radiant Heat) and left for 5 minutes (Pic 4)
4. Two different readily available kitchen bench cleaning agents. (Pic 5)

While I have recorded all tests and results as images and tabulations, I can sum up as follows.

None of the oils showed any damage or scarring as a result of any of the irritants used. Some of the oils were easier to remove evidence of the cold or hot water, but generally, all came up as they were before the tests with a little rubbing with a cotton cloth. All were fine after using the Kitchen cleaners on them.
So hard burnishing all of the Tung Oil/Tung Oil hybrids was successful.

Choose your weapon! Just make sure that there is no Poly in the mix.

Regards,

Rob

[soundman]

I'd like to take issue with a couple of points.

"Danish Oil" is a rather vague term and generally means a mixture of varnish (usually polly these days) and some sort of oil or oil blend.

While some would argue that it should be tung......it realy could be anything.

There are various "Tung Oil" products on the market very few are "pure" tung oil.
At the very least many of the have added metalic driers, trebine or such to make them go off in less than a month.
Other products typically labled as " tung oil finishes" or similar contain some sort of resin or varnish component, and could be a blend of all sorts of stuff.

If we are being fussy we realy need to know at least approximately what is in the finish and we can not rely on the name on the container or some other preconception or assertion.

As for white spirit, it is indded clean white hydrocarbon, and is very similar to turps but is cleaner whiter and does not contain the oily component.

White spirit is the hydrocarbon base on which many solvents are built, you will find it or similar components in turps, shellite, various thinners and it is more or less the base for petrol

As for it being dry cleaning fluid as actually used by dry cleaners now.....I have significant doubts about that.

I prefeer white spirit for thinning clear finishes to turps, because of the lack of the oily component, it does not seem to make things go milky as much as turps and it dries a little faster.

If you want a clean white relativly simple hydrocarbon that evaporates cleanly, and does not taint or alter your finish, white spirit is it.

Not to be confused with meholated spirit ( which is ethyl alcahol, ethanol),

OR

white parifin oil, which is a thicker oilier fraction of the refining process and is more or less baby oil, and can be had in a food safe grade & is the best thing for finishing cutting boards & such.
Parifin oil does not polimerise or go rancid.

cheers

[Dengue]

What an amazing result! Thanks for taking the time to do this, Rob, and for posting the results.:2tsup:

I think you will start seeing a swing to oil finishes before long :wink:

[LGS]

Hi Soundman,

The purpose of this exercise was to take three products which should be Tung Oil or a hybrid of Tung Oil and other "goodies" and to assess their suitability for hard burnishing into timber.
China Oil is supposedly Pure Tung Oil, since the two names are interchangeable. Teak Oil is also a Tung Oil "hybrid" product and Liberon Pure Tung Oil should be just that.
Regardless of the true makeup of these oils, they all gave similar results in so far as definition of grain, ease of use and durability as defined by heat and liquid tolerance tests and the ability to cope with standard kitchen cleaning sprays.

The use of White Spirit was recommended for dilution by Liberon. That is why it was used. The ability to dilute the pure oil down by 50% and 75% is a bonus and that's all. On the label, it is clearly labelled White Spirit and Dry Cleaning Fluid.

Regards,

Rob

[Chappy65]

LGS

So would you suggest this finish for a floor? I was concerned that in may be a bit over slippery if it were dusty or if you had wet feet. The nudie run from the bathroom may end in a nasty bruise

[Dengue]

the mind boggles :D

[LGS]

Hi Chappy,

I don't think a floor would be the kind of normal wear and tear this finish could handle. I think I'd like something a bit sturdier for that.:)

Regards,

Rob

[soundman]

One test you may want to try is the standard adhesion test.

take a sharp blade and scribe an "X" being sure it goes thru the full depth of the finish.

then apply standard packing tape to a clean dewaxed surface, rubb the tape down well and then pull it off.

A realy good finish should not peel anything off and no finish should be missing from the surface and none should be seen on the packing tape.

cheers

[Stewie D]

More and more people are using Tung Oil on their timber floors over poly.
We did a large extension for clients nearly eighteen years ago and the brushbox floor was sanded and oiled by a guy who recommended it. Three coats of the oil all up.
#Now the client says the best thing about it is that once every nine months to a year or whenever the floor starts to look a bit "tired " or scratched she pulls all the furniture and carpet square over to one side of the room, does a quick vacuum then a coat of acrylic sealer with a mop. Lets it dry for three hours then does the other side.
I last saw that floor about a year ago and it looks as good as the day it went down.

Stewie

[soundman]

We now have more than a full generation of people who don't know what a polished floor is.

In my childhood, electric houshold scrubber polishers where a common item, My mother used to polish out kitchen lino and the wodden floor in our lounge about once a fortnight or maybe let it go to once a month....we had a ploisher in our house before we had a vacuum cleaner

In between times, a once over with an oil mop would pick up any fine dust left behind by the broom and leave behind a fast beautifull shine.

Most people would not know what an oil mop was these days.

People have opted for "easy care finishes" which translates to a thick coat of polly, which may be great in the short term, but after only a couple of years it can look very shabby with the only alternative to sand and recoat......even if you have a pedantic home owner who goes balistic if anybody dares come in their house with "dirty boots" on.

Back in the day, tung oil whas the choice of those who could afford it and where prepared to make a little effort to have a floor that looked fabulous year after year.

3, 4 or 5 coats of tung oil applied over a week would yeild a fabulous hard gloss, particuarly if burnished in with a felt pad on a polisher.
The home owner would then polish it with wax every week, fortnight or month, which would leave it GLEAMING, GLEAMING, GLEAMING.

A once over with an oil mop every couple of days would keep it that way.

After the floor had copped a lot of wear...or just as a matter of yearly routine in the fancy houses...all that was needed was a scrub with kerro to get rid of the wax and another coat of tung oil was burnished in with the polisher and a felt pad.
Mostly the floor could be back in service next day.

There are floors in some of the great houses that have had this sort of treatment for decades or more and the depth and sheen can be stunning.

These "easy care finishes", are realy a short term thing and simply delay a whole lot of hard work.

I have seen floors that have never seen anything but parifin wax, look stunning and no matter what happens, you can fix it with a little more wax and a polisher.

Polyeurathane....pha.

cheers

[Drillit]

Hi Jill,

In this experiment, it was as good as the Pure Tung Oil and the Hard Burnishing Oil and maybe a little better than the Wattyl. The burnishing gives it more lustre than I have seen previously. I'd be very happy to use it in place of the Wattyl.

Here's a comparison of (1) China Wood, (2) Wattyl Teak and (3) Liberon Pure Tung Oil.
One thing about the China Wood and the Liberon. Both are names for Tung Oil, just depends on where the nuts were collected. China or South America.
Out of the can, the Liberon was very thick. Liberon suggest diluting up to 50% with White Spirit (White Oil I think) I suspect that the China Wood has already been diluted. At some stage in the very near future (today or tomorrow) I will try doing double dilutions of the Liberon down to 50%, 25% and 12.5% oil with White Spirit and see what happens. If, as I suspect, the oil will happily still present great resolution at 50%. a 500ml can will effectively cost you $17.50!!! And last twice as long as other Oils. Excellent! If it works at 25% even better!!

Regards,

Rob
Hello Rob,
I have found that pure Tung Oil (100%) breaks down best with Pure Turpentine (Not mineral turps) and you can also add a smidgen of a drying agent, like terebine, if you wish . The Danish/Scandinavian/Burnishing Oils as I recall contain some linseed oil. I guess some more than others.The good thing about pure Tung Oil is that it is safe on products that will have food on them - e.g salad bowls, chopping boards, etc in my experience. Overall though a very interesting analysis, so thanks for that. Drillit.:2tsup:

[soundman]

Im sorry there is still debate as to tung oil being considered "food safe", it certainly is not if it has metalic driers added.

I know various people are claimimg that it is "food safe", but under what circumstances ( dry contact, wet contact, continuous immersion, hot or cold, pH ballanced or not, containing alcahol or not), there realy are very few finish products that are truly "food safe".

I know some claim "food safe when cured" but when some manufacturers state that it may take 30 or 90 days for tung oil to fully cure in some situations.......so did you leave that bowl 3 months before you put a salad in it.

When it is known the every part of the Tung tree is poisonous especially the nuts which the oil is made from...one needs to know a bit more before trusting it.

Regardless of the general food safety debate, there may certainly be issues associated with those having nut allergies and food that may have been in contact with a tung oil finish.
Some of these people can go into alaphalixis with the slightest traces of nuts.

Yeh safer not.

To the matter of pure turpentine or gum terpentine......while it may have legendary status in some circles, it is a product to avoid and is completly unnecessary.....

Gum terpentine contains a few very nasty chemicals that have both long and short term effects (similar to petrol sniffing)and some people react very badly to it indeed.

BTW, don't get Neil ( the owner of this forum and a polish manufacturer) started on the gum terpentine issue, he will leave you with the message in no uncertain terms that it is an unnecessary product and one to avoid..

Anybody who has good hard information on the food safety of tung oil I would be very interested to see.

Not MSDS, because they never reveal all and only deal with the product as shipped and used.
Not manufacturers claims, because they can claim anything and very rarely give detail
Not magasine articles, because they are very rarely well reserached and mostly depend on manufacturer claims.
Not research about feeding tung oil to chickens, because birds will tolerate all sorts of rubbish that can kill humans.

Serious detailed information about how tung oil behaves on food surfaces.

cheers

[LGS]

Soundman, Just couple of things. You picked me up on a point of english, so..
Really is the way that you spell the word
Alaphalaxis doesn't exist. Anaphalaxis does and is the Allergenic response you were looking for.

I have to ask a question regarding Food Safety and by default Nut allergic response.
Why would a company like Organoil claim that their Hard Burnishing Oil is food safe, if they cannot defend themselves against litigation. It doesn't make sense. I suggest that the onus is on you to provide proof that Tung Oil is in fact not food safe, or responsible for allergenic responses.

Regards,

Rob

[jimbur]

Soundman, Just couple of things. You picked me up on a point of english, so..
Really is the way that you spell the word
Alaphalaxis doesn't exist. Anaphalaxis does and is the Allergenic response you were looking for.

Rob
You're both wrong, try anaphylaxis :D

Cheers,
Jim

[LGS]

I hate that. You'd reckon all those years of Allergy study would still work. Bugger!

[jimbur]

I hate that. You'd reckon all those years of Allergy study would still work. Bugger!
Couldn't resist it as I'm meant to be hanging curtains and not at ease with the world. :U

Cheers,
Jim

[soundman]

If you want to correct people for spelling, go teach english, and stop posting on forums because frankly nobody cares.

On the matter of public and products liability don't ever assume a manufacturer, particularly an american manufacturer of anything is certain their product is 100%.
Othewise Ford would never have let the Edsel get past the drawing board, nor would thay have let a cetain firestone tyre be fitted to F series, nor would thalidamide ever been used for morning sickness and tobacco companies would have closed up shop from the goodness of their heart decades ago.

If you believe everything a manaufacturer says at face value and not seek other information, you are leaving yourself wide open for disapointment or worse.

"Food safe" is one of those vague terms like "waterproof" and "sealed" and "lifetime guarantee".

Not worth the electronic ether they are written on.

Pobably 90% of the finish products out there would be "safe" to serve a sandwedge on or to eat chips out of, but as soon as you introduce liquids especially acids (like tomato sauce & citris juce), oils and alcahol the game changes....make them hot and it changes again.

Then we have the issue of simply putting food in or on something...that changes as soon as we start using utensils like knives and forks.

Food safety and woodwork is a very live issue and one soo many people are far too complacent about.

As far as i know there are only 4 finishes that can be relied upon to be 100% food safe, because in their finished form they are edible......Parifin oil, parifin wax, shelac and U beaut food safe finish.
Note that I have left beeswax out, because some people are allergic to that otherwise it is fine too.


cheers

[LGS]

OK. So 90% of finishes are safe to serve food from, but if we prepare food on them, then we need to know exactly how the food components are going to react chemically with the finish, correct?
Show me some proof, words are as you say "not worth the electronic ether they're written on".
FYI, I'm really not that interested, but vague obliques at things that may exist are not constructive.

Rob

[LGS]

Never mind. Here's some reading which presents both sides of the discussion. A man who thinks he's allergic to Tung Oil, but hasn't proved it yet and a comprehensive run down on Tung Oil and its properties from "The Woodworks Book and Tool Company, Sydney."

http://whatallergy.com/2011-11/tungoil

Pure tung oil: the world's finest natural wood finish - The Wood Works Book & Tool Co. (http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/technical-data-sheets/tung-oil-aka-china-wood-oil)

Regards,

Rob

[soundman]

Sorry neither of those articles are of any use and show no depth of discussion in the matter what so ever.

The statement that "all parts of the tung tree are toxic especially the nuts" is far from vague.

Following that anybody claimimg that the product derived from tung nuts is food safe holds the onus of proof and the responsibility for the detail....detail that none of them seem to supply.

Parifin oil, parifin wax and shelac ( bees wax to possibly) are all long established and approved food additives and are 100% safe to eat in fact we have all quite possibly done so, they do not go rancid, taint food or provide food for or promote pathogens...very few other " food safe finishes" can make the same claim.

The statement that the product is "non hasardous" simply means that is is not dangerous to handle or transport.

The statements in MSDS and other places saying that the oil "is not edible" means what?

There are plenty of people making wooden food related items out of timber they should not and finishing them with stuff they probably should not........are people getting ill...well we simply do not know, because, if they do get ill they do not consider looking at the wooden item.
As with many food hygeen issues, people often do not relate the illness to the cause.


cheers

[LGS]

Yep. Let's leave it at that.

There is a lot of evidence for "some degree" of Tung Oil (not nut, which is as you say toxic) allergy, but I don't know what the level of severity is, or what symptoms people present with or if it really is the oil they are reacting to.

But I still maintain that a company selling a potentially medically spurious product would be reluctant to claim something which can be proven to be untrue and if allergies can be conclusively proven, they are treading in a mine field.

Regards,

Rob

[soundman]

As with anything you must read between the lines.

looking at the liberon site.
it claims.
Pure Tung Oil, with no added dryers, is a natural, non-toxic product which can be
used on toys and objects in contact with food such as salad bowls.

Further on it specificaly states.

Precautions

- Tung Oil is extracted from nuts and may cause an allergic reaction.

Simply on the basis of the nut allergy issue, I do not believe tung oil anybodies tung oil can be considered reliably "food Safe".

Anybody who is or has a child with a nut allergy I think would agree.

cheers

[LGS]

You win. Congratulations.

[soundman]

If you think this is a competition, you have the wrong idea all together.

Food safety and hygeen in wooden items is a real and constantly reocouring issue, that some people are prepared in their ignorance to take at face value or are prepared to take their chances with.

Sorry but I and many others are not.

There are a few on this forum who know this subject very very well......better than I....and have been involved in the arguments ( there are several) for decades.

Personally I would not be marketing a product that is assocaited with possible nut alergies and claiming it was food safe...In fact I would not be claimimg a product was food safe unless I had some sort of independent varification of the fact, such as an approval.

That generally revolves around the substances used in the product being approved food grade items or being approved for use in food processing or the product it self being tested and approved for the purpose.

For example...Ubeaut "Food Safe Pluss", is made from food grade products and I understand is FDA approved as food safe in the USA......There are other reliably food safe products out there but this is one example of what is reliably food safe.

So you are in a food business, and you have your visit from the health inspector, he asks about fabulous turned wooden bowls you are serving bread in and those wooden cutting boards........what will you tell him about the timber spicies and the finish product used......and where is the documentation.

Then you better know what "food safe" means.

cheers

[LGS]

CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21 (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=175.300)

Mods, could you please close this thread?