How many coats of Danish Oil?

[Dengue]

I am making a mirror frame of silky oak, and intend coating it with Danish Oil to bring out the beautiful grain.

Can anyone please suggest how many coats I should use in this application?

Can anyone suggest a better finish for this frame, instead of Danish Oil?

[antiphile]

With Danish Oil, I always seem ending up with three coats. I suppose I might be easily pleased, but it always seems to look beautiful after 3; it doesn't really improve much after that (to me at least).

[Dengue]

Thanks for this info antiphile. Do you sand back between coats?

[LGS]

Hi Jill,
Yes I can suggest a better alternative. Wattyl Scandinavian Oil. The can says to use estapol first, but you don't need to. Just wipe on two or three coats. Give each coat a vigorous rub in. No need for anything else, though you might want to use Trad Wax over the top. I guarantee you'll get clearer grain definition with this than with Danish Oil containing Polyurethane. Try it out yourself on some scrap.

Wattyl Scandinavian Oil is available in 250ml cans.

This pic may help This test was done about 5 years ago, comparing China Wood Oil, Cabot's Danish Oil and Wattyl Scandinavian Oil on the same piece of beautifully figured Red gum. It should be plain that the grain is better seen and more delicate in both the China Wood Oil and Scandinavian Oil than in the Danish Oil. The China Wood Oil gives a flat finish, while the Wattyl Oil will give a satin finish under your proposed conditions.

Regards,

Rob

[Dengue]

Thanks Rob, this is very interesting information. Do you sand between coats, and what grade of paper would you use?

[antiphile]

With pure Danish Oil I don't sand in between (it maybe laziness). But with the Danish Oil "derivatives" with drying agents and hardeners etc (like Feast Waston Scandinavian Oil), I usually sand very lightly by hand with 400 or 600 grit after allowing at least 12 hours for drying.

Cheers
Phil

[LGS]

Hi Jill and Antiphile,

Jill, I would sand between coats with what antiphile suggests, though I doubt I'd wait for 12 hours. If you rub the oil in thoroughly and briskly, it should soak in pretty quickly on the first and second coats, so you could sand about 2-3 hours after each coat. the third shouldn't need sanding.

Antiphile, what's your definition of pure Danish Oil? Most DO's that I know of and that includes Feast Watson Scandinavian Oil have Polyurethane in their mix. For the result I showed, you would use Tung Oil with some additives, maybe varnish and some drying agents, but no Polyurethane. In fact, if you use the burnishing method I use, then you soon find out what does and doesn't contain PU. Any PU will thicken and turn to muck which does not dry and ruins the finish.

Regards,

Rob

[antiphile]

Hi Jill and Antiphile,

Antiphile, what's your definition of pure Danish Oil? Most DO's that I know of and that includes Feast Watson Scandinavian Oil have Polyurethane in their mix. For the result I showed, you would use Tung Oil with some additives, maybe varnish and some drying agents, but no Polyurethane. In fact, if you use the burnishing method I use, then you soon find out what does and doesn't contain PU. Any PU will thicken and turn to muck which does not dry and ruins the finish.
Rob

Hi Rob

I have memories of reading a discussion (somewhere on this forum???) about the difference between DO and its derivatives like Scandinavian Oil etc. My memory isn't what it should be, but I'll look for it and check I haven't misinterpreted it, whih is more than possible of course, and post the link. But my memory is DO is just an oil without hardeners and drying agents - but don't hang me if I'm wrong (again)! :doh:

[LGS]

Thanks for that. I'm just curious is all. The closest I've come to a pure oil (apart from straight Tung Oi of course) is the Organoil products, which do contain some drying agents but not much else, They give a great finish if applied the right way.

Regards,

Rob

[Drillit]

Hello JillB,
1st dampen whole frame - water on paper towel. When dry sand with say 240 grit to remove the nap than stands up from the wipe over. Then ...If you are using DO and I use it regularly, I always use wet and dry paper (600 grit) to put on the first coat and then wipe it off and let it dry (1 day). 2nd coat -brush on leave for say an hour and wipe off. Let dry - 1 day. 3rd coat - as for 2. Leave 2 or 3 days for finsih to harden. Check. Then you can finally finish with say satinproof Feast and Watson - 2 coats (or such other poly type finish). Hope this helps, Drillit.

[Karl1]

Well, to throw a dissenting spanner into the works, I use Rustin's Danish Oil extensively and am very satisfied with the results. It has no polyurethane and does not 'yellow' like some oil finishes. I usually have 3-4 coats and apply each with 0000-grade steel wool.

[LGS]

Hi Karl,
Don't know who you are dissenting with, but you are just reinforcing my opinion that pure oil finishes are better than those containing PU.

Rob

[Karl1]

Yes LGS, I suppose am getting paranoid in my dotage. The dissent was with the type of oil to be used. I have used both Feast Watson and Rustin's and both are good, but the latter is the best for me. I wasn't going to say it but I look askance at Wattyl because I suspect that the chap that made my Tasmanian Oak table 15 years ago used their PU for the finish, which now exibits a striking and not altogether pleasant orange hue in certain lights. And before anyone takes issue, i fully acknowledge that PU and oil are two different animals!

[LGS]

OK So after reading a few PD Sheets, it appears that there are two types of Oil finish generally available.
1. Tung Oil and Tung Oil mixtures

2. BLO and BLO mixtures.

An Oil which does not have PU in it will be declared as an oil. Those with PU and other things will be labelled as Oil with "Synthetic resins"

As far as I am concerned, I get excellent results using a Tung Oil product without resins. Either using it wiped straight on then off again, or soaking into the timber for a period of time then spending some time wet sanding to high grits.

In my hands, using straight oil finishes provides better resolution of grain
(e.g.China Wood Oil, AKA Tung Oil or Natural Teak Oil AKA Wattyl Scandinavian Oil.) These are all the same thing.
Using a finish with "synthetic resins, however, again in my hands, reduces the visibility and delicacy of any grain in the wood.

So I would recommend using a raw Oil finish as per instructions, then allow it to dry for a couple of days and pour over your PU or Shellac or Wax as you wish separately.

At least try it. You might get better bang for the amount of work you put into the piece you've just finished.:2tsup:

LGS

[Dengue]

Hi all, I decided to give LGS's recommendation a go with Wattyl Scandinavian Oil.

Neither Bunnies nor Mitre 10 had any, neither did Wattyl on their web site :(

I ended up at the local Wholesale Trade Paints place who had Wattyl Teak Oil "Scandinavian". Got a 500ml tin of it, but had 2nd thoughts as I didn't want any teak stained oil on my valuable silky oak.

Headed off to the Wattyl wholesale place in Townsville ( didn't know it existed before) and they said it was not stained, just Teak Oil, also known as Scandinavian Oil ... whew!!

Followed the advice of Drillit, and wet and sanded the frame ( I had been wondering about doing that before he posted) , then wiped on lots of oil and rubbed it in with steel wool from the local hardware store.

First coat looks flat and dull on drying, but when it was first being applied the wet silky oak was a beautiful golden honey colour, and I will swear it got more golden with a few rubs of steel wool :).

Will let it dry overnight, then apply another 2 coats over the next two days. Got some thin 800 and 1000 grit foam pads ( as used by panel beaters) to wipe off any dust that settled on the oil overnight - will be good for the finely moulded edges too, quite soft and malleable.

Will post some pics when the third coat goes on.

Thanks for all your advice, it has made the job so much easier knowing how to go about it the right way :2tsup:

not sure about what to do after the third coat of oil - apply estapol , or beeswax , or just leave it as is. Can anypone please advise ?

[LGS]

Hi Jill,
The look you got with the rubbed wet oil is what you should end up with after three coats rubbed in and allowed to dry. I'll bet there was more figure than you expected showing through. Once you've finished your oiling and have let the frame dry for, say 48 hours, you can use whatever you want You can use satin or gloss WOP, Estapol, two coat PU. I have a penchant for using EEE cream followed by Traditional Wax. It will give a beautiful satin finish to the frame. EEE is like a cutting agent and acts a bit like taking your sanding up another grit or two. Beautiful base for the Trad wax!

So here is a pic of some book matched Silky Oak panels in a cabinet, finished with Wattyl Teak (Scandinavian) Oil, EEE cream and Trad wax. You can see the lustre that the wax gives by looking at the top of the cabinet.

Looking forward to seeing the finished product.

Regards,

Rob

[Dengue]

Crikey Rob, just how beautiful is that finish on those panels, wow!!


I'll bet there was more figure than you expected showing through.Too right there was, it was very encouraging :2tsup:

Thanks for the advice on the drying times and the EEE cream and Traditional Wax, Rob, sounds like the way to go, so will order some

[Dengue]

Rob, Here is the information that I found on the uBeaut web site:



Please use a finish over the top preferably one of the Shellawaxes, which are 100% compatible with the EEE. You can also use Traditional Wax or our Shithot Waxtik or any other wax over it. However because the wax in EEE is so tenacious it is possible that it may stop any other finish from adhering to the surface. So, if you intend using another finish EEE do a test piece first to make sure it will work. his may avoid some tears down the track.

Have you had any trouble with the application of the Traditional Wax over the EEE cream? Do you need to take any speical precautions?

[LGS]

Hi Jill,
I think that that warning applies primarily to turning. I have had no issues whatsoever in the 6 years I've been using the two products. The wax goes over the EEE like a hand in a glove. Have no fear! No special requirements. Just a brisk wipe down with a clean cotton cloth, or if you want to get really excited, a Swansdown mop. (Which is also on the UBeaut site.)

Regards,

Rob

[Chesand]

Hi Jill,
I think that that warning applies primarily to turning. I have had no issues whatsoever in the 6 years I've been using the two products. The wax goes over the EEE like a hand in a glove. Have no fear! No special requirements. Just a brisk wipe down with a clean cotton cloth, or if you want to get really excited, a Swansdown mop. (Which is also on the UBeaut site.)

Regards,

Rob

What Rob said.
I have used EEE and Trad wax together on furniture

[antiphile]

Thanks for that. I'm just curious is all. The closest I've come to a pure oil (apart from straight Tung Oi of course) is the Organoil products, which do contain some drying agents but not much else, They give a great finish if applied the right way.

Hi again Rob
I spent quite a while looking for that link, but can't find it or anything similar. I'm now thinking I must have msinterpreted the info or had a "senior's moment". Sorry about that!
Cheers, Phil

[Nanigai]

Rob,
did you use a swansdown mop on those panels or is that finish just with the process stated and a "normal" rub off.?
That finish has really made the SO pop.
It has a real WOW :o factor when first sighted, I love it.
Cheers, Ian

[LGS]

Hi Ian,
No Swansdown mop was used. However, I have to say that the Wattyl Teak (Scandinavian) oil was burnished into the wood up to high sandpaper grits (4000g)
It really does make it pop!:)
But that said, you should still get a great finish by using the oil as Jill will and using EEE and Trad wax after it.

Regards,

Rob

[Nanigai]

Thanks for that Rob, look forward to giving it a go on my next project.
Love oils, hate most plastic finishes.
Cheers, Ian

[Scally]

Jill
I am sure you are pleased with your oil finish.

I love the ease of using oils and the quality finish.

I haven't found any benefit in wetting the wood to raise the grain unless I am using PU.
Oil wont raise the grain.

Sand to your preferred finish.
Apply 3 or more coats of oil, at least a day apart. Rub off briskly before it starts to get tacky, within 10 minutes for me.

I have tried rubbing the oil in with fine sandpaper and steel wool but I don't think it makes much difference. An extra coat of oil will increase the gloss if that is what you want.

The touch of an oil finish is magic.


Occasionally I have used wax or EEE wax because I love the shine but if you are going to handle the piece, you end up with finger marks.

The only thing I would add to the other comments is that I usually add about one third poly to the oil because the finish lasts longer.

My suggestion is to try the oil finish with less work and decide how much work you need to do to get the finish you like.

[LGS]

Hi Scally,

EEE is not a finish, it is Tripoli powder in a waxy compound. It is a cutting compound and will not behave a wax finish will. I have many pieces of work (furniture, boxes and picture frames finished with Traditional wax and don't have a problem with finger prints once the wax has been wiped off and allowed to dry. I also haven't had problems with finishes lasting without Polyurethane being added.
I too love oil finishes, but don't see why we should cover them with plastic. There really isn't a need.

Regards,

Rob

[Dengue]

Hi all, as promised here is the result of three coats of Wattyl teak (Scandinavian) Oil 2 hours after it had been applied. The result matches the finish Rob said I would get. I must admit this is a far superior result to the Danish Oil I have always used previously.

Prior to each coat I wiped the frame down with 800 grit foam pads that panel beaters use. Each coat was then rubbed on with steel wool, and then wiped off with a cotton rag almost immediately - I didn't want to risk an uneven half sticky mess, and in the tropics where it is nearly 30 degC already, not sure of how long it should be left on.

Have posted a number of pics so you can get an appreciation of the beautiful grain. the first photo is taken just after the routing was finished, before the finishing process was started.The finish after 3 coats is very smooth, and you can see the light reflecting off the satin finish.

Next step is to wipe on a final 4th coat without steel wool, let dry for a few days, by which time the EEE Ultra cutting compund and the UBeaut Traditional wax should have arrived from Brisbane Carbatec.

[LGS]

Looks faaantaastic Jill. Excellent job.:2tsup: And no plastic in sight!!:cool:

Regards,

Rob

[Drillit]

Hello JillB,
You might find that yoyu need more than 3 coats - but if not and you are sure that it is dried hard then you can apply you poly. You can then apply the poly (but dont use water based poly - shocker) and lightly sand between coats and ensure surface is clean and free from dust. Otherwise you can use wipe on poly (satin or gloss), which I find is terrific stuff. Minwax make it. Make sure that you give the tin a full shake, with each use. Hope this helps. Drillit.

[Scally]

It looks great.
Lovely finish.

[Christos]

So far this has been enjoyable to read.

[Dengue]

hi Drillit, can you please advise the benefit of applying polyurethane as you recommend over the top of 3 coats of Wattyl Scandinavian Teak Oil?

At this stage I can't see the point. Surely a coat of Traditional Wax will suffice for a mirror frame, and preserve the beautiful natural look that it has after the oiling.

[Dengue]

Well, the EEE Ultra Shine and the Traditional Wax arrived from Carbatec this morning, $50 including $12 freight.

On my frame I have rubbed in 3 coats of Wattyl Teak ( Scandinavian) Oil with steel wool, and a final coat by rag, and have let it dry for 3 days. Looks and feels beautiful, so silky soft and smooth.

Can anyone please advise how to apply the EEE and the Trad Wax on this surface, with steel wool again or with a rag?

[LGS]

Hi Jill,

Just use clean, soft cotton cloth for both.

Regards,

Rob

[Dengue]

Thanks Rob, will do. How long does it take the Trad Wax to dry, and how many coats should I apply?

[LGS]

Hi Jill,

I usually leave the EEE cream on for about 5 minutes, wipe off and apply the Trad wax. I give it about 5-10 minutes and wipe it off. I use one or two coats at most. But see how it looks in your eyes and then add another coat if you think it's necessary.

Regards.

Rob

[soundman]

There is realy no advantage to leaving the EEE on for any period of time, give the stuff a good brisk rub and wipe it off.

It may be worthwhile waiting a little to allow the solvent to evaporate after the EEE is wiped off.

How quickly trad wax takes to thicken will depend on how hot and humid things are and how vigorous you rub.

I tend to rub the stuff while it is fresh and wipe off & buff before it gets tacky.....a lot less work that way.

cheers

[Dengue]

Well, I applied the U-Beaut EEE Ultra cutting compound and wiped it off, then applied a coat of U-BeautTraditional Wax and wiped it off..

To be honest, I was a bit disappointed with the result. I was expecting something as clear and as smooth as what I ended up with after three coats of Wattyl "Scandinavian" Teak Oil rubbed on with steel wool. Mind you, the final waxed finish is far superior to Danish Oil finishes I have used in the past.

The final finish, although smooth, had a definite waxy feeling about it, but that seems to be disappearing, presumably as the wax dries and hardens with time.

The final finish is a nice uniform, beautifully figured piece of silky oak that should stay in the family for a long time. It has a faint satin finish, but the grain shows beautifully. The interesting thing is that the timber is now a uniform colour all around the frame, with different grain patterns on some sides.

I will definitely be doing this again, and may thanks to Rob(LGS) for introducing this finish to us on the forum. Enjoy the final photos shown below.

[Dengue]

Here are some pics of the final assembly, and the finish 24 hours later.

The mirror was 1200 x 350 x 5mm, and the total frame weighed just on 7kg, so needed some strong joints ( done) and hanging brackets and wire.

The finish is really beautiful, the natural timber grain is well highlighted, and it doesn't look at all "plastic", although it does feel as smooth as plastic, probably smoother :2tsup: My family members who have felt the timber cannot believe that there is no varnish, poly or paint on the finish, just oil and a single coat of wax.

One little granddaughter, and her Mum, are very happy with it

Have posted a number of pics in the hope that you can see the grain and the overall colour.

[Mr Brush]

Jill - very nice job indeed. :2tsup:

I've learned a lot from reading this thread, and will definitely give the Wattyl product a go (assuming I can find some....)

The back of the frame even shows your picture framing expertise :D Very neat :2tsup:

[Dengue]

Hi Mr B, thanks for your comments, but full credit goes to Rob (LGS) and the others who guided me through each step. I have even gone out and got some more silky oak to make some picture frames, this was so successful.


The back of the frame even shows your picture framing expertiseAhhh... I can't take any the credit here, although I did the turnbuttons holding the foamcore backing in place :) I have met a friendly picture framer who is glad to help DIYers, provided I mention her name. She is Julie Pollock at Destination Frames in Townsville, lovely person, been in the game nearly 40 years. I have been looking at some of her work, wow!! She lost practically everything in the Storm Financial / Commonwealth Bank debacle, and is trying to start up her business again

[LGS]

An excellent job, Jill. I'm glad you like the technique.:):cool:

Regards,

Rob

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

beautiful job, Jill.

You gotta be proud of that!


I usually leave the EEE cream on for about 5 minutes, wipe off and apply the Trad wax. I give it about 5-10 minutes and wipe it off.

???

Sorry mate, but this has me confused. :?

EEE is basically just Tripoli powder in a wax medium. Hence Neil's advisory to do a test piece if using other, non-wax finihes over the top.

It doesn't do anything if "left on the piece;" apart, perhaps, from giving the wax (or some other additive Neil has snuck in to the mix) time to soak into the grain. Instead, it needs to be constantly buffed/rubbed/whatever, so that it breaks down and acts as a very,very fine sanding agent. A cut'n'polish as it were.

The more it's buffed, the finer the particles break down and the finer the end polish.

Which is also why, after application, it's supposed to be removed as much as possible before applying a finish. As long as wiping it down with a rag shows any "colour" coming off, the removal ain't finished.

(Sorry. Don't mean to sound lecturing or pedantic... :- but it is what it is and any finishing product goes on "better & easier" once you understand how it works. :;)

edit: Never mind. I think that perhaps you meant the Trad Wax, not the EEE? Either way, I'll let the above stay... I need something to boost my post count. :innocent:

[LGS]

Uhhhh....Uhhhh ...huh?