Skills shortage - Mick's solution

[journeyman Mick]

So Australia has a skills shortage, much of it in traditional trades including the building trades. And the government is going to fix it by building Commonwealth funded TAFES. Now I can only comment from my perspective as a capenter/joiner but it seems to me that they've put the cart before the horse. The TAFES are already there, but you need to have an apprenticeship in order to do the training courses.

Now an apprentice spends about 42 weeks of the year on the job and about 4-6 weeks a year at TAFE. They learn sweet FA at tech and the bulk of their skills and knowledge are learnt on the job. At one place where I was factory foreman and had 12 apprentices they actually did all their tech at work as well. Now the government admits that part of the solution lays in changing the attitude of people to a career in the traditional trades but the prevailing attitude seems to be that the white collar theoretical stuff is worth far more than the actual hands on blue collar stuff. Otherwise they'd be trying to fix the problem from the other end - getting people to take on apprentices.

Last time I looked, I could expect a total of about $9K in subsidies over 4 years if I took on an apprentice. Now this may look like a lot, some people may even think of it as "money for nothing". But how much will it cost per student per year to build and staff these new TAFEs? And how much is my accumulated knowledge and skills worth? How much time will I lose each day/week/year in training the apprentice, fixing their stuff ups, administering all the red tape that comes with employing someone?

Back in medieval times (and possibly a bit more recently) parents used to pay a master tradesman to take on their son as an apprentice. So the government would like me to take under my wing a smart asred, know it all teenager with no skills and no job and teach them all that I know (or at least all they're willing to learn) for the princely sum of $9K. That works out to about $1.30 per hour for 4 years of one on one training. Granted, they'll be making money for me at some stage, but even with a keen kid it may take six months before I break even on their wages compared to their output. And the potential for losses is alarming.

If the government took a good look at the building industry they'd realise that most people are engaged as sub-contractors. It's a hungry, competitive world out there and if I need blokes for a job I want ones with all their own gear, insurances and a head full of brains. And when things get quiet they don't cost me anything. The apprentice on the other hand costs money from day one, subsidies don't arrive for quite a while and he'll still cost me money when he's not productive, sick, on holidays, hungover etc etc. I need to take out workcover, with hold tax and pay holidays and sickies, all things I don't need to do for a subbie. He'll also be using my tools for a while :eek: . So how much is it worth to give someone a trade? As a carpenter I've always been able to find work, even when things were really quiet. Even allowing for massive changes in our economy, society and the way we work I believe that a trade as a carpenter is the closest thing you'll get to a garuantee of life time employment.

So what I propose is: Subsidise the apprentice's wages to the tune of whatever he/she would be entitled to on unemployment benefits. The government will be paying it into their future, sort of like the old "give a man a fish and he has a meal for a day, teach him to fish and he has meals for the reast of his life" (or however it goes). If it's a mature age apprentice with kids then the subsidy will be higher (as are his wages). Now this is money that the government would be paying out anyway in most cases, but it's a pretty sure bet that the recipients won't be needing the dole anymore when they finish their time.

Add a few roving inspectors, experienced tradespersons with Cert IV in training/assessing to check on the quality of the on job training and to keep all the players honest and the picture is complete.

Comments, flames, whatever, what do you think? Might be a bit simplistic for some people but sometimes the simple and elegant solutions work the best.

Mick

[bitingmidge]

Mick,

If you mean that the equivalent of the dole is what an apprentice is earning I'm all for it. I do think that a top-up from the trade would be appropriate each year as the apprentice became more useful, but the notion of a person being paid an unworkable wage while learning a trade is preposterous.

There is no need for anyone to waste those extra years at school when at 15 they could be out getting their ears boxed off and earning an allowance while they train.

Trouble is, I keep hearing words like "equity" and "living wage" and nothing about "cost of learning" "value of training to the trainee" etc.

The bleeding hearts would love you to pay tradesman's wages from day one (where's the incentive for that?)

I'll bet that none of those on this board with a trade background regret earning their stripes!

cheers,

P

[journeyman Mick]

Midge,
wasn't proposing that they be paid a pittance (no offense meant or taken), just that the government paid them whatever they'd be getting on the dole and the employer topped it up to bring it to whatever the award required (or ore if they were worth it).

Mick

[bitingmidge]

I actually think one of the elements missing from the whole trainee thing is the PITTANCE!!

I don't wish hardship on anyone, but there can be no sense of having earnt their wage, if big gobs of money are handed to them without them having the skills to earn a return.

Because there is no personal cost in obtaining qualifications these days (and by that I mean financial sacrifice as well as physical effort) the qualifications themselves have a lesser value than they once had.

It is one thing to provide training, and altogether a different thing for the recipient to value that training.

Don't know if I'm making sense....is it Friday yet???

P (waiting for the postman who is bringing his LA smoother anyday now- served my hardship time a few years ago!)
:D :D :D

[E. maculata]

hear hear Mick, got it in one mate, on the job cannot be beaten. Those who can do/have done, instruct those who want too, in real world situations with less centralisation.

[maglite]

Hi Guys,
About time that someone bought up this subject.
Im with Mick on this 100%.....and u too midge.
It seems that whenever one reads the paper these days all one can see or read about is the supposed shortage of skilled and unskilled labour.
Over here in the west, the supply of unskilled labour has all but dried up IE: those poor bastards on the dole collecting all the benefits that would actually like to work....dont want to cos in most cases they are actually worse off....probably not in cash terms but in real terms.
Then you have the peanuts that have no intention of working...if i had 10 bucks for the amount of people that have rung me "supposedly" to apply for any available work, yet are more concerned about finding a few names with which to put on their dole forms i would be a very rich man.
GIVE ME A BREAK.....there isnt a labour shortage in this country, yet there a definate shortage of people that want to actually want to work...wether it be cos they will be worse off financially(amazing when u think about it) or are simply bone idle and do NOT HAVE TO work if it doesnt suit them.

Im 37 years old...yeah i know im a pup compared to a lot that inhabit the forum.
I started my business nearly 20 years ago.In those days the dole was a subsistence payment....enough dough to keep you alive untill you could manage to find a job...im sure a few of the forum members know exactly what it was worth 20 years ago....no rent assistance, health care card, discounts on the rego on the car etc etc..........it makes me friggin sick to be honest.
In those days i was actually better off by starting a business than being on the dole.......these days i would better off the other way around.....go figure!!!
GET THIS.... the union movement here in WA is really big on traineeships to cleaning business, but only if the business can employ a trainee for a min 20 hours per week. What about guys like me that can provide 4 people with 5 hours per week...wouldnt the results be the same...the learning is the same but instead of 1 unskilled person...we have 4 persons trained.....apparently not good enough by all accounts.
Like Mick says ....lets spend a pile of dough training someone and not be able to stop them going somewhere else once there training is complete......where is the benefit to the employers to actually train people. Lets be honest it isnt "rocket science" knowing how to clean a s##house....most of us work out to do it all by ourselves, yet according to the guys here in WA i must send my employees to a course lasting nearly 12 weeks to learn just that!!

Im very sorry if i have bored people with this post but it really gives me the willies....the sooner the govt's, both labour and liberal FORCE people into the workforce rather than pander to dogooders that suggest that the majority are under priveleged,if not just down right lazy.
Oh , for the inevitable naysayer that doesnt agree.....my father is mature age and on the dole.....he mows a few lawns a week and reports his earnings to the tax office and centerelink. I have offered him a job pretty regualarily but he feels as he too old to head back into fulltime work but would love to if he thought he could keep up with me...pretty bloody good for a 62 year old.
I cant remember the last time that a 20 year old said the same!!!

Good Onya Mick

Steve

[LineLefty]

Hmm, Well I'm only 26 so I must be a bloody embryo then!

As a good-fer-nuthin white collar worker, I can also sympathise with a skills shortage. We need a decent experienced traffic engineer and there is simply not one to be found in WA.

My wife is a qualified child carer and has people beating down her door trying to get her work for them. So the skills shortage is in mroe than just the traditional trades.

Being an economist, theres that naggin belief that I have that if the government just got the hell otu of the way, then everything would get back to an equilibrium. That is, make the dole a basic subsistence level, and let the apprentices and bosses work it out for themselves. If Carpenters are in short supply, then the boss will be gettign well paid for his scarce skills, and in turn his apprentices will get well paid. Slappnig blanket 'honest, low wages' on people is not the way to go.

If gas fitters all of a sudden are in short supply, then the pay wil go up and 16yr olds will head in that direction. The mroe meddling the government does, the more they stuff it up.

It is NOT the governemnts responsibility to sort out the problems of your business. I really get tired of the government bashing that goes on here sometimes. 16yr olds should bloody well take respnsibility for themsleves. If they want a philosophy degree, then great, if they want to fyack around then don't expect hte governmetn to pay for you to waste someones time as an apprentice.

2bobs worth!

[Grunt]

the sooner the govt's, both labour and liberal FORCE people into

I'm an employer and I can say that I definately don't want people who are forced to work in my employ. They'd do a f..ed job and it would cost me time managing them. Bad for business.

Unfortunately there is a very small percentage of the workforce that don't want to work or are incabable of getting a job. There is not much that can be done about it. We could stop paying them the dole but we'd end up like the U.S. where people resort to crime to in order feed themselves.

15 and 16 year olds don't want to be in the trades because it's not fashionable and the pay of a first year apprentice is pitiful. Like Adam said you start to pay more the job becomes attractive. I'm in the computer game and we had to pay large sums of money to attract good staff in the late nineties. In turn I could charge my clients premium rates because our services were in demand. After the DotCom crash, I could get people much cheaper. I've also had to reduce the price we charge our customers. It's called a market economy.



I started my business nearly 20 years ago.In those days the dole was a subsistence payment....enough dough to keep you alive untill you could manage to find a job...im sure a few of the forum members know exactly what it was worth 20 years ago....no rent assistance, health care card, discounts on the rego on the car etc etc..........it makes me friggin sick to be honest.
In those days i was actually better off by starting a business than being on the dole.......these days i would better off the other way around.....go figure!!!


If you really think you'd be better off on the dole why don't you try it. This is what people were saying 20 years ago too.

[Daddles]

Part of the problem is the modern business ethic ... and sorry, but you blokes are going to cop a bit of the serve here too. The idea that the only thing that matters is the final profit margin is the basis of modern business practices. The concept of valuing other things such as the product, the customer, community, the trade/profession, etc, carries no weight in modern business. The ONLY thing that matters is the final profit.

This has led to such stupidity as banks closing a branch merely to raise enough money to raise this year's profit line (look back to the eighties). Then doing the same thing to another branch the next year.

Back in the 'good old days', which had a lot wrong with them as well as some stuff that was right, professions and trades alike saw it as their responsibility to train the next generation. Hence you saw carpenters taking on a young apprentice and teaching him the job. This wasn't affected by the introduction of TAFEs, just shifted some of the training. Sadly, the rot had set in by then.

The profit.

It became cheaper to employ contractors rather than employ staff to do the job yourself ... and one of our respondents to this thread has said exactly that. Okay, part of the cost of employing people is government enforced, but smart employers have always looked after their staff. And in a responsible world, we pass those costs onto the purchaser.

But, as the urge to contract out became stronger, because you could do it cheaper, contracting got pushed further down the line. Whereas once a developer paid a builder to build a house, a builder who had the staff and apprentices in shop, now that builder employs a bevvy of contractors.

The question is, why is it cheaper to emply contractors? Because when you employ someone from a pool like that, you can drive the price down. By buying the cheapest contractor, you reduce your costs and increase (or maintaing) your profit (or something resembling it), while at the same time, reduce your own risks (eg an apprentice ****1ng up).

This is good for your business, but it makes it harder for the next level down to make a profit and so on. Eventually, you reach the point where the bloke actually driving in the nails has such a tiny potential for profit (as opposed to slavery), that he can not afford the risks of paying an apprentice.

Little or no training, plus reduced or no profits for trained personell = people not coming into the trade = staff shortage.

And at the top of the pyramid, you have the big businessman, the bloke who is having no trouble making a profit because he is applying pressure on the entire pyramid - that businessman is being forced by his shareholders to make an INCREASED profit next year (not just a profit, but an increased one) because that is the demand of modern business practice.

Nowhere in the modern business ethic is any consideration given to anything but profit.

Now, before you get angry with me for calling you immoral or whatever, humans do care about other humans and there are and will always be people who are willing to reduce their profits to help others. Few, in fact, don't. But, this becomes harder to do the further you get away from the poor bugger actually slamming in the nails.

The concept of 'user pays' is an example of the same business ethic from another viewpoint - it looks great on the surface but it's why most tradesmen can not afford to send their kids to these TAFEs and Universities.

The answer?
Hell, it's not in tradesmen going broke by employing apprentices. It's not by the government throwing money at training.
The answer lies in our entire society devaluing money and revaluing people. It's about us becoming a compassionate society again. The basis for this is there now, because humans are basically a compassionate animal. However, to achieve this, we have to overturn modern business ethics and that is becomming harder as more businesses become bigger and multinational.

Take your building trade - if you trace the chain upwards, I wonder how many houses being built finish at a big business, perhaps one with some allegiance to a non-associated multi-national (eg banks or other financial enterprises).

In the past, we've overthrown such situations with revolutions - the famous French bunfight is a good example, both of how it can be done and how it can go horribly wrong. As modern business becomes more entrenched, this will become harder and remember, right at the top of the tree, are companies with budgets that Costello would swoon for.

It's about now that some of you are cursing me for a tree hugging socialist. Well yes, I do believe we are knocking down too many of the wrong sort of trees and yes, I have a lot of sympathy for many socialist ideals. But without business, without the flow of money, without little Johnny's mates, our society would not be as comfortable as it is now. Somehow, we need to find a balance between modern business practices and the leftwing loonies. I think the answer lies in business developing a strong compassionate side - the trouble with that is we need to learn how to value it. It begins at our level, at the contractor level, at the bloke hiring the contractors, at the bloke slamming the nails. Without that base of compassion, the current situation will only get worse as we all chase dollars. However, the cure will not happen until that compassion is forced upwards. It would be easier it the top of the pyramid would make that same shift without being forced to, but I'm afraid I'm enough of a treehuggingsocialist not to believe that will happen on a large scale - the whole system is too impersonal.

And before you go thinking I'm just some unemployable nut case trying to tell you what's wrong with the world, I should point out my own background. I was a surveyor in my formative years - twas one for over twenty years. I entered a profession that valued training, where young graduates were taken by a senior professional and taught about being a professional. And that training, the profession itself, extended its view beyond the job at hand and worked to protect the cadastre (land boundaries) and the integrity of the profession itself. Those same business practices that I railed about above have changed that profession and reduced it to little more than a trade. Our society is considerably weakened as a result, though I don't intend to go into that on this forum. And we are now paying a financial price for that, a price that will one day be significant though it isn't at the moment. I've watched, from the inside, a profession be destroyed. Many won't agree with that and perhaps it's my own viewpoint that allows me to see it that way. But I suggest that the whole point of this thread is others coming to same conclusion ... though perhaps seeing different reasons and solutions.

Rant over.
Dammit you lot, I'm supposed to be writing a horror novel, not getting all political.
Grrrrrr.

Richard

[Slavo]

Dammit you lot, I'm supposed to be writing a horror novel, not getting all political.

I thought politics and horror go hand in hand - well I find politics very scary anyway :rolleyes:

[46150]

Congratulations,Mick.Pardon the pun,But youve hit the nail, right on the head!

[LineLefty]

I tell you, there might be a shortage of tradesman but they all seem to be bloody useless! Alinta Gas were 15 days late installing our gas line. Now the plumber is 4 hours late and has not turned up to install the hot water system. My wife is at home waiting and waiting and waiting.

Tell me mick, whyy are tradesman always late?!!?!?!? If I'm late delivering a report to a client I get my friggin ass kicked! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[silentC]

whyy are tradesman always late
Didn't you say you were an economist? I thought they taught supply and demand in ECO100 ;)

[LineLefty]

Your'e right, the government needs to do something about it.

[Rusty]

Don't be too quick to bag the dole. As grunt pointed out, there are those who are incapable of work and the social cost of starving them would be far greater than supporting them with welfare. Consider also, that "dole bludgers" take only budgeted public revenue, and plough it right back into the private economy. At the risk of breaking the "no politics" rule, so called "work for the dole" is one of the few good things the coalition has come up with- using government money to pay workers, how socialist is that?! Of course industry subsidies, tax breaks..that's not welfare, oh no.

(BTW, if you work for your money, IT'S NOT THE DOLE!!!).

Otherwise Mick, you seem to be on the right track, and I don't doubt you know your business. I'd consider an apprenticeship myself if the money was there- got a brace of young 'uns to consider. With egard to TAFE training, different trades have different technical requirements and I don't think all training could be done on the job. I'm surprised that young people aren't going for apprenticeships though, given the flash cars that so many tradies are getting around in...

And to repeat a point that's already been made, there's tons of work around, you probably wouldn't give a job to anyone that doesn't have one.
I've got two part-time gigs. Works for me. No, fortnightly paperwork for John Howard isn't one of them...:rolleyes:

As for forcing people to work..well why don't we drop wages down to subsistence levels, remove the right to organise and shoot dissenters. Then we could be The People's Republic of Australia.:(

Who would we sell all the cheap power tools we'd be making to, though?

Rusty.

P.S. If the U.S. gets their man into the world bank, life is going to get really weird, really fast. This new world order business is going to suddenly become unfunny.

[Kris.Parker1]

Once again we go full circle, are you sure they are Liberal not Labour?


I thought Liberal were going to get better, not lull on this kind of problem. Look at the national unemployment rate... it's the best in the world...

[Jack E]

I am sure all the tradesmen out there were once apprentices, somebody gave them a go and they should now do the same.
I have two trades but work for somebody else. Employing apprentices is not up to me but the company employs many.
As far as on the job training goes I would not like to see the quality of a Refrigeration Mechanic / Electrical Fitter Mechanic who has not done a days theory. These are probably two of the most technical trades and definately require alot of teaching as well as on the job experience.
Apprentices will make more money than a uni student and will not owe money on completion (except for the ute loan which it seems all apprentices must have). There is also every chance that they will earn more than most graduates in the long run (perhaps they can then employ an apprentice of their own to boss about)!!
My partner has two degrees, I have two trades and I wish she earned as much as I do!!

[journeyman Mick]

I am sure all the tradesmen out there were once apprentices, somebody gave them a go and they should now do the same.

Jack,
Although I've got my trade papers I never did an apprenticeship as I couldn't find anyone able/willing to offer me one. While I would like to train an apprentice I simply can't afford the cost in lost time. I've got no idea on the figures but most tradesmen I know are self employed, and when things get busy they find other contractors to share the workload. There's a huge repository of skills and knowledge locked up in a section of the trade that simply can't afford to put on an apprentice.


.As far as on the job training goes I would not like to see the quality of a Refrigeration Mechanic / Electrical Fitter Mechanic who has not done a days theory. These are probably two of the most technical trades and definately require alot of teaching as well as on the job experience.

When I was in charge of a swag of apprentices at a cabinetmakers they did their theory on site, in the office. The lesson materials were delivered from a remote TAFE (as the Cairns TAFE didn't offer cabinetmaking) and the apprentices spent a set time every week on the materials. I would help them with any questions and if neccesary set up a call every week with the tutor to go over any problem areas. Not saying this is the best approach, or even possible/desireable for all trades but flexible delivery might sometimes make an apprenticeship more of a consideration.

Mick

[Ludo]

This is way to simplistic.

"It seems to be a law of nature that when any society goes through a period of upheaval and transformation, simplistic world-views increase their appeal.

Right now, Australia is looking like a classic case of point. For the past thirty years, we’ve been living through a cultural revolution,characterised by four main themes: Gender, Economy, Technology and Identity, that has radically redefined the kind of society we are becoming and now, right on cue, the fundamentalists are here to tell us how to make sense of it all.

The gender revolution, beginning in the early 1970s, has redefined the role and status of women in our society and, in the process, sent shockwaves into almost every aspect of the Australian way of life. The gender revolution has transformed the institution of marriage, rewritten our divorce and birthrate statistics, changed the character of the Australian family, revolutionised the workplace, redrawn the political landscape… and even changed the attitudes and values of the male of the species (though, for many men, that is still a work-in-progress).

While all these changes in the social fabric have been occurring, we have also been living through the restructure of the Australian economy. This has resulted in a cultural shift in which we have gradually learned to live with a widespread sense of job insecurity. We have witnessed a significant shift from full-time to part-time work, and from permanent to casual employment. We have seen the problem of under-employment emerge as more significant issue than the problem of absolute unemployment..

The redistribution of work has resulted in a redistribution of wealth. We have widened the gap between rich and poor: the average annual household income of the top 20 percent of Australian households is about $180,000; the average annual household income of the bottom 20 percent of households is about $12,000. We are also living with our highest-ever levels of personal debt and household debt.

Such shifts throw out a challenge to our traditional ideal of egalitarianism and raise serious questions about whether we are prepared to allow Australia to become a three-class society, stratified by the dollar.

We have been through another period of reappraisal of our sense of national identity as we come to terms with the whole idea of multi-cuturalism and the significance of the proposition that we are defined by our diversity. We are also coming to think of ourselves as a country closely tied to the Asian region, with all that that entails for our traditional trading and cultural relationships.

Australians seemed to reach a point, around the turn of the century, where we sought refuge in a kind of social disengagement. We knew there was a ‘big picture’ demanding our attention, but we were wearied by too many changes and too many issues: globalisation, Aboriginal reconciliation, the republic, foreign investment, youth unemployment, population policy and then, on top of everything else, the threat posed by international terrorism.

In response, we have turned the focus inward, and concentrated on things that seemed to be within our control: backyards, home renovations, our children’s schools, our next holiday. This shift has been reflected in a corresponding shift in our TV program preferences: we have gradually lost interest in current affairs, and developed a voracious appetite for so-called ‘lifestyle’ programs.

When a society enters a period of self-absorption, it is almost inevitable that there will be a rise of intolerance and prejudice, and a decline in compassion. The Australian response to the Boxing Day tsunami disaster notwithstanding, those signs are emerging in contemporary Australia.

It’s a strange moment for us – a dangerous moment - a time when we seem to have almost been encouraged to disengage; to indulge our darker impulses of xenophobia and intolerance; to think of ourselves as consumers and of our lives as being devoted to the expression of material values. (Perhaps that’s what the Prime Minister meant when, in 1996, he dreamed of an Australia where we would all be ‘relaxed and comfortable’.)

The anxiety created by living through such a period of transformation, instability and uncertainty promotes a tendency to retreat and disengage from the social and political agenda. Such a period is also a rich breeding ground for fundamentalism of all kinds. It is a time when extreme and simplistic voices are likely to be given more attention than they normally are, almost as if our insecurities create a vacuum we yearn to fill with simple certainty.

That’s one reason why Hitler’s voice attracted so much attention in Germany between the two world wars; he offered simple answers to the confusion of the time.

Senator Joe McCarthy’s voice attracted undue attention in the highly-charged, unstable atmosphere of the Cold War.

US religious fundamentalists attracted huge attention, during the social and cultural upheavals of the Prohibition Era. And now, in the throes of our very own Cultural Revolution, the fundamentalists are on the march here, too. I’m not suggesting for a moment that Australia in 2005 is like Germany between the wars, or like the US during the Cold War or Prohibition, but we are experiencing our own period of uncertainty and instability, so we shouldn’t be surprised that the voices that offer ‘simple certainty’ have peculiar appeal.

I mentioned the religious fundamentalists of the US and, in fact, that’s where the term ‘fundamentalism’ sprang from. A group of US Southern Baptists published a series of booklets called The Fundamentals, which called on America to return to a hardline, literal interpretation of scripture. They were sceptical about the idea of America regarding itself as a Christian society, and their fundamentalism should properly be regarded as part of the social protest movement against increasing permissiveness – social, cultural and religious – characteristic of America in the 1920s.

When it comes to religion, that same brand of hardline scriptural literalism is currently on the rise here, as well. The Pentecostalist churches (variously known as Assemblies of God, Christian City Church, Hillsong, etc) are experiencing an extraordinary surge in church attendance. Indeed, Pentecostal churches of all kinds have become the second most popular denomination in terms of church attendance, after the Roman Catholics and ahead of the Anglicans.

The appeal is clear. Religious fundamentalism offers us the security of grasping the meaning of life here and now, and the promise of eternal life in the hereafter.

By the way, the current brand of popular fundamentalism also chimes with two of our current national preoccupations arising directly from the mood of social disengagement: the obsession with ‘me’ and rampant materialism. Fundamentalism is essentially concerned with personal salvation , and material prosperity is regarded by fundamentalists not as a barrier to faith but as a sign of God’s blessing on their lives.

Fundamentalism is a kind of reductionism that appears, at times like this, in many more places than religion, and in many other guises.

Economic rationalists, are a variety of fundamentalist, because they claim to have the one, true answer – the free market!

The social scientists who want to tell us that media violence is the cause of increasing violence in society are fundamentalists (who face, incidentally, the problem of reconciling their theory with the reality that violent crime is actually declining).

One answer! One explanation! One cause! That’s what we yearn for, and that’s what the fundamentalists offer.

But what if the human condition isn’t like that? What if some of the questions we face actually are complex? What if most events that occur in human systems are the result of many factors? What if mystery and ambiguity are things we simply have to live with?

I’m inclined to agree with the Indian mystic, Krishnamurti: ‘Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of a problem.’

Mind you, I don’t want the engineer who designs a bridge or plane to think like that, but the nature, the purpose, the meaning of our lives are not amenable to the kind of formulae that make planes and bridges safe.

Manning Clark wrote of the straiteners and the enlargers of life, and he thought the present time would be a period when the enlargers – the visionaries, the inspirers, the prophets, the dreamers – would come into their own. But I fear his predictions may have been too optimistic. I fear the enlargers’ time may not yet have come. Perhaps the current surge of fundamentalism is the last gasp (at least for a while) of the straiteners, the limiters, the reducers – those who think that, whatever the question, the answers can be made simple.

Waiting in the wings, surely, are a new breed of enlargers with new energy and new vision. Where will they come from? Will they be the new republicans? The academics? Will they come from a revitalised labour movement? Will they be women? Will they be young people (whose early experience of life has certainly taught them to live with uncertainty, and has encouraged a more communitarian spirit in them)? Will they be religious leaders? Artists? Writers?

Leadership, from whatever quarter it may come, is obviously important in inspiring us and enlarging our vision. But if the present era – all around the Western world – teaches us anything, it is that we had better not wait for leadership to inspire us. Those of us who dream of a better world re-engage; we must each enlarge our own vision, set our own course and give our own meanings to our own lives. The alternative is acquiescence. Rather than waiting for someone to inspire us, perhaps it is time to begin inspiring those around us."

HMK

<!-- PRINT_CONTENT_END --><!--end standard 0830 transcript content table-->Ludo

[journeyman Mick]

Ludo,
you're right, it's a very simple answer for a possibly complex problem. But I think the problem is simpler than designing bridges or aircraft:

How do we get more skilled tradespeople?

Now, like I said, I could only comment about my sector of the building industry and I'm pretty sure what I'm proposing would see a huge increase in the number of apprenticeships.

Would Australia have more skilled tradespeople? Undoubtedly
Would it cost less than building and staffing the proposed federal TAFEs? Most probably.
Would we end up with a number of "duds"? Yep, but that happens no matter what form of education or training you go for.

I wasn't aware that I was proposing a simple solution for all of our society's woes, just a solution for one part of a simple but large problem. So go on Mr smarty pants, besides quoting Professor Manning Clark and Krishnamurti can you propose anything other than navel gazing? :p

Mick

[bitingmidge]

Waiting in the wings, surely, are a new breed of enlargers ..... Where will they come from?

I get emails from them every other day, they reckon it can be done without surgery and all!!

Cheers,

P :D

[craigb]

Ludo,

I just read through all that, and my first thought was that you must have thought deeply about a lot of issues. But then I realised it was all in quotes and it was all HMK's work. Who is HMK?

But after I thought about it I'm buggered if I can see what it tells us about adressing the skills shortage. :confused:

And BTW when we talk about the so called skills shortage, I don't think we're only saying that there aren't enough chippies around.

Although that is certainly part of it.

As far as the age old system of training tradesman goes, if, as Mick says it's no longer viable for the little guy to take on an apprentice, well then maybe we need to look at a new paradigm.

Craig (who's always wanted to use paradigm in a sentence :) )

[bitingmidge]

Actually Craig, it's an egalitarianism paradigm.

P :D

[Driver]

Furthermore, Craig, it's ineluctably an egalitarianism paradigm. :D

Col

[craigb]

Furthermore, Craig, it's ineluctably an egalitarianism paradigm. :D

Col

Yes. You are correct Mr Driver. You also have an excellent memory :o :o :D :D

So, no need to worry about old timers disease just yet :eek: :D :D

[powderpost]

Has anyone been to a TAFE College to ask or see what is done there with apprentices? Or even offered comment on the syllabus content?

Jim

[Driver]

No-one with half a brain would dispute the need for trade apprenticeships. The problem for one-man businesses is simply that they can't afford the cost and time associated with teaching.

However, that's not such a problem for big businesses. The issue here is that the drive for reduced costs has forced middle managers in big corporations to ignore basic training needs because of the (relatively low) costs of hiring and employing people who are seen as non-productive.

In other words, big business can actually afford the cost and time associated with teaching young people a trade but the perceived short-term needs of those businesses to keep a lid on costs is actively discouraging them.

I've been a general manager in a big business for some years (just retired from that job to do something different :) ). About two years ago, during one of our regular management meetings, I challenged the seven people reporting to me to name the youngest people in the company. They duly did so. I then asked them to tell me the ages of those young people. the surprising answer was that they were all in their late 20s and early 30s. None of us thought it was a good thing that our youngest employee was 28 years old.

Accordingly we set about looking for some teenagers who might be interested in cadetships or apprenticeships. A couple of local high schools were keen to help (and a couple of others were completely apathetic about it - bad cess to them!). We put together, with the active cooperation of the schools, a program that had a couple of Year 10 students spending one day per week with us for a school term. This has had pretty good results. Out of a total of 8 young people who've been through the program, 2 are now on full-time cadet- and apprenticeships with the company, 2 have gone back to complete full time studies to Year 12, one has joined the armed forces and three have dropped out.

There are grants available from government programs to fund the formal cadetships and apprenticeships. The benefits to the company of having teenagers in the business are not all quantifiable but they are real. Apart from the obvious benefit of having people learn the business properly from an early age, the intangible benefit of having your staff exposed to the sort of naive questions asked by sixteen-year olds is surprisingly useful. People have improved the way they do some tasks simply because they could not come up with a rational justification when asked the naive question.

To answer powderpost's last point: I've done some work with high schools and TAFE's to provide input to their courses. The response is a typical curate's egg: they are good in parts. Some people engaged in our education system have a real vocation and are genuinely interested in fostering young people. Others are a time-serving drain on public funds and should find themselves an alternative way to earn a living.

Col

[powderpost]

Driver, congratulations, at least you did something positive instead of listing all the reasons "why not". I find the responses to the question about a visit to a TAFE college interesting. It is easy throwing **** at TAFE without backing it up. The way I see it is that the college can fill in the blanks left by on site training. On site training is where the bulk of training is acquired, but it is not complete. Any claim that it is, is narrow minded and the proponents are training for their business, not for the trade. All apprentices reserve the right to move on and it is to their benefit and the reputation of their trainers if that apprentice is a credit to the trade.
Jim

[E. maculata]

I've kept my distance from this debate (?)As I wish to see what the various needs and views that stakeholders put forward.

#1 What Mick suggested way back at the start of the thread with travelling instructors filling the gaps in Prac with onsite lessons, IS availiable, in NSW at least (but I suspect he may have known this already. ;) )you just need to talk to the right people

#2 There is many more providers out there than TAFE, they are known collectively as Registered Training Organisations quite often owned by the relevant industry involved or the industry bodies, and yes many of them offer excellent high quality strategic learning, usually these organisations only employ people from that arena to instruct only within that arena, check your local ones out.

#3 Do Not get locked into the "Must send them to TAFE" mentality, or the "I had to do that Cwap so why should my guys waste their time?" thinking either. There has been several major and minor revolutions in Vocational Education since many of us did our time. Before anyone accuses me of Tech college bashing, TAFE does do some really quality stuff, automotive is one example.

#4 Yes I am involved in this for a living, after 20 years in my industry, I got to help others realise their skills potential and help employers realise their staffs' abilities.
Last year 2 of my clients (1 employer & 1 apprentice) won the national awards in their fields of endeavour.

My advice is when it comes to ensuring skilling into future, if whats on offer doesn't suit, find a local DET (Dept of ED) person with passion and explain what you need, they will help, and don't settle for the same old stuff handed out by some empire building/ monovision organisations.

[journeyman Mick]

Jim,
I hope I didn't come across as TAFE bashing, not my message or intent at all. My problem with the government building TAFES to address the skills shortage is that it is without logic. I've never heard of anyone not putting on apprentices or trainees because there wasn't any courses on offer. Employers don't put on apprentices because of the conceived cost, the lack of suitable employees, too much paperwork etc etc etc not because there's lack of classroom space. The way the training "industry" is structured now with all the non government RTO's I'm sure if a classroom space shortage were to arise due to a sudden intake of apprentices then there would be a scramble by providers wishing to make money out of the situation. I really think that the government needs to make it more attactive for small employers to take on apprentices. When this happens the rest will follow, but it's pointless building more classrooms for non existant apprentices.

Mick

[q9]

Interesting...this reminds me of something I heard about recently.

A machinery manufacturing company was complaining that they couldn't fill orders because they were short on staff. They needed apprentices (pref second year), and quick! Somehow with their increasing sales, and their increasing penentration in the marketplace, they failed to notice a need for an increase in staff. That is, they didn't take on apprentices early enough, and no doubt, that was due to "cost".

So, instead of paying an extra $40K pa or so per apprentice before they actually needed them (lets guess they need 3 apprentices) a year before time, they now lose probably that much ($120k) PER MONTH in lost productivity and unrealised production capacity.

To be blunt, they were short sighted and failed to do any strategic planning.

I don't believe for a second that there is a shortage of people willing to take on the trades, but there is a shortage of people willing to take on apprentices, and I can say that speaking from experience. When I was 22 I decided that I wanted to be an electrician, but 22 was to "old" at the time. Now you'd get subsidies and grants coming out of your ears. Nevermind that a 22 year old is probably a lot more reliable and more likely to be committed to the job...

[mic-d]

I've been enquiring about doing a mature age apprenticeship as a carpenter or cabinet maker through group training organisations. Noone seems interested because it costs a lot for a mature age apprentice in carpentry. The best response I got was from one agency that did trial mature apprecticeships for carpenters and that was to just drive around and approach all the builders I see. I've been on the tools now for about 3 years and have a flourishing handyman business, you'd think that the extra productivity and responsibility that would bring would offset the extra cost. I'm sure there are heaps of people out there who want to make a career change to a trade but there is very little support for it. That would help the skills shortage.
Cheers
Michael

[q9]

Exactly mic-d.

Productivity doesn't rate a mention because basically most of these people just can't get past the fact that it would cost more (in their eyes). They don't seem to understand that there could actually be some value in hiring an older apprentice. Another benefit is that an older apprentice is going to better at talking to clients and potential clients. But this is lost on most of these tradies :confused:

To be honest, it is lost on me why the average apprenticeship takes 3 years. I think a better option would be proper training schools for 18 months - 2 years, and a year of work experience. Then everyone would be equal. You'd go out to employers with equal skills and equal wage expectations.

This reminds me of what my father was telling me about his apprenticeship in Germany. The company had its own, very large apprentice school. For 3 years as an apprentice, they never once worked on product for external customers. You had to earn that privelege by completing your apprenticeship. Top apprentices (of which he was one) got taken into special programs and completed their apprenticeship 6 months earlier. Not only is this a reward to talented apprentices, it makes business sense too. Your best apprentices start working on income generating projects sooner. It caused no end of trouble when he initially came to Australia though - at the time they only recognised 3 year apprenticeships.

[silentC]

The couple of blokes that I know that have put on apprentices have done so because they need a lackey and couldn't afford to pay full pay for an adult. Given the choice between hiring at full price or going without, they would have to go without. Simple economics unfortunately.

[q9]

In that case people like that should be discouraged from putting on apprentices. I have heard of plenty of cases like that where the apprentice gets shafted after a few months or a year, and then it can be hard to find someone willing to take them on to complete the training.

[silentC]

I agree. Often what happens is they get very busy and so the cheapest option is to hire an apprentice. Unfortunately when things go quiet, the apprentice often goes too. It goes both ways though. Plenty of apprentices shoot through as soon as their tenure is up. There should be some longer term committment there which would sort out the wheat from the chaff.

[q9]

Which is why I think getting a proper training program going is the best option. We should be developing peoples skills to a high level, no matter what their vocation, be it, doctor, scientist or tradie.

[journeyman Mick]

But how much experience would a apprentice get at a trade school? It would cost a hell of a lot to put up complete buildings and pull them down again. Carpentry isn't rocket science, there's not that much theory to learn, it's mostly hands on stuff. I can't see it being financially viable to have carpentry apprentices building stuff for two years at school. (Sorry to hark on about carpentry apprenticeships all the time, but it's what I know so I've got a fair idea of what training is required.)

I agree about the lack of security on both sides of the fence, for the apprentice and for the employer. It's one of the reasons I haven't taken on an apprentice in the past, the worry that I wouldn't be able to keep them if things got quiet. As far as cost VS productivity is concerned, well if that was the only factor I was looking at I wouldn't even think about an apprentice. If I want the most productivity then I just get another subbie in for the duration of the job, that's by and large how the building industry works. I'd like to put something back into the industry by putting on an apprentice but I can't afford to be out of pocket and I'm not referring to the apprentices wages. If you factor in all the indirect costs of having an apprentice then the subsidies are a joke.

So for me the bottom line is that I'd like to give something back to the industry and pass on some of my skills but I can't afford to.

Mick

[AlexS]

I've recently been involved with some training for my profession. TAFE put together a course that takes 3 years and is made up of a hotch-potch of subjects from other courses that may or may not be relevant, but could be made to sound useful. A couple of subjects were put together by Qld colleagues and are pretty good, but would mostly be covered on the job.

We put together a 3 week residential course that covers the things that are necessary, but probably wouldn't be encountered in day to day work. It is cheaper, more use and involves less disruption than having an apprentice take a half-day at TAFE or study leave every week.

[q9]

Most trades aren't roket science. But I do think there is a need to get the training done properly to a nationally standardised level, before apprentices go and work on real jobs. And to be honest I don't see why this shouldn't be at the expense of the apprentice, like it is with most other further education.

There is actually a lot of things that need to be taught to apprentices besides pure skills. I can nominate Workplace health and safety, basic business skills (simple book keeping, invoicing, tax etc) as a start.

Highly skilled, job ready apprentices would have to be more attractive, and more cost effective for employers that the current shambles. Add to that the need for less on the job training then there would be freer commitments which would be a plus as circumstances change.

I can bet the current housing boom will have created heaps of apprenticeships, but I dread to see what is going to happen as the boom grinds to a halt...

[markharrison]

Mick,

There are alternatives to just knocking things down again! One suggestion is Habitat for Humanity to consider. This organisation assists folks on a lower income to become independent home owners.

This is an interesting thread. I'm a computer boffin myself and have been for twenty years. This industry used to run on a de facto apprenticeship system. People like me were taken on because universities were not able to churn out graduates out fast enough. This doesn't happen anymore.

Entry level jobs are now almost exclusively occupied by Computer Science or Information Technology graduates. I personally don't have a problem with that. The young adults that come out of university now are far better prepared than I was educationally but are no better prepared emotionally, on average, than 22 and 23 year olds were 20 years ago. No surprise there.

I am concerned about their middle-career prospects though. They will face increasing competition for the work they can do by overseas contractors. The problem for us as a country and managers of organisations is where the next level of professionals are going to come from in 20 years if the careers of these people has no middle level progression?

The way things are going my kids, as you said (or someone said anyway), might be better off (I'm talking about from a purely financial point of view) being carpenters or another skilled trade. I have seen this in other professions. The profession we all love, lawyers (cough) are going through turmoil as well. My nephew graduated from Macquarie University. He's a fully trained solicitor and has gone to England because he can't get a job here. I doubt he will return.

Rambling on a bit, I know but I'm still feeling a little raw myself with the "life changing" career experiences of the last 12 months...

[silentC]

The young adults that come out of university now are far better prepared than I was educationally
Which university is that? We take industrial year students from UTS in Sydney ocassionally and they know SFA about the job. They know how to expand a 100 word answer to 1000 words and how to swat for exams at the last minute ;)

I'm being slightly facetious but the point is that, although they have 4 years of university education under their belt, they don't really learn anything until they get on the tools so to speak. I suppose that reinforces Mick's point. You can teach them how to swing a hammer but if they don't know what they're supposed to be hitting and why, then it's sod all use to them.

I like the idea of building houses as part of some training scheme though. Sounds win-win to me. As long as they are supervised by someone who knows what they are doing (maybe an opening for you there, Mick) and not left to their own devices like a lot of university last year projects, it would probably be a goer. They could draw labourers from the unemployed queue.

[AlexS]

I've often thought that a prerequisite for going to Uni should be that you have to work for a year first. Those that did then go to Uni would be a bit more mature, some would have a better idea of what they want to do, and others would decide that they liked the type of work they were doing and didn't want to go to uni at present.

Also, some people are better off going to Uni later. I know one licensed plumber who went and did Mech. Eng. - he commands a better salary than other engineers because of the things he can sign off that they can't.

[silentC]

I did my uni in the late 90's after I'd been in the biz for 6 years. When I got into IT in '89 it was the same story as Mark. I rang up an ad in the paper one day for a computer course. I was a labourer but had heard what sort of money these 'puter people could earn. They got me in to do an aptitude test and then offered me a spot BUT they wanted $6,000 off me. Yeah right.

So I rang one of the major banks and asked them if doing the course would help me get a job with them. They said not in particular, since they do their own in-house training. At that point, they pretty much only recruited IT staff from the branches and head office. However it was around the time of a certain major project by one of the other banks and they were losing IT staff left right and centre, so they were hiring off the street. You couldn't get more off the street than me. I did their aptitude test and then they put me in an operational area for 12 months, then on to programmer training.

When I went on to uni 1996, I got a couple of subject credits for industry experience. I ended up graduating with distinction because I actually did the work and whipped the asres of the full-time students (you have to love standardised scores).

If I had gone on to uni after high school, I doubt I would have stuck at it and I don't know what I would have done anyway.

This is just a long-winded way of saying that sometimes you get more out of these things when you are older or more mature. I think they should encourage older people to go back to school because by they are more likely to stick at it and do well. How many people have you met who did one thing at uni and ended up in a different occupation altogether?

I've often thought I'd like to be a sparky. If I had to pick a trade, it would probably be that. But how would an old fart like me get into it at this late stage?

[E. maculata]

Oy Silent, enough of that "Old Fart" stuff OK ;) 1965 was NOT that long ago.

[silentC]

Apparently life begins for us '65ers this year, I'm looking forward to it :D

[Daddles]

Apparently life begins for us '65ers this year, I'm looking forward to it :D

Nah, go mad now and avoid the rush :D

Richard

[RufflyRustic]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread.
Journeyman Mick said, back at the beginning of this thread,
"a smart asred, know it all teenager with no skills and no job and teach them all that I know (or at least all they're willing to learn) "

How about a female, willing to shut up, listen and learn or re-learn the better way to do wood cabinetry, with 3 years wood experience, 90% self-taught....

You know, I'd very happily give up my computer job, become an apprentice, soak up the wood knowledge and experience and get into it. However, who would take me on as an apprentice and pay me enough to live on. I think it's this that is the stumbling block, but that's my humble opinion. If I could earn enough and get enough work in, I'd even consider setting up my own business, but then it wouldn't be my passion anymore.

I have three degrees, started the fourth last year but gave it away as it took way too much time and money away from my wood work and family. My husband has no degrees and yes, earns more than I do.

Having a year off to work between Grade 12 and Uni is, IMHO, nearly essential. As I work at a uni, it's been interesting to see which students appreciate the opportunity to study and the hard work needed, and which students just want to hang out and party. The students who study after a break from High School always seem to get more out of the their study than those fresh from High School.

Just my 1 Cent.

cheers
RufflyRustic

[Harry72]

Noticed some of you mentioned the dole bludgers don't want to work.
Some dole bludgers do have a story to tell,

I think in my very own case it was depressing catch22, back in the late 80's early 90's in the the aftermath of the "recession that we had to have".

Back then after leaving school in 86 I tried very hard to get a apprenticeship, I did course after course but it didn't make any change because all the course's that actually could help you get a apprenticeship cost money that I didn't have.

Living in a smaller town didn't help, I could have moved to the city... but in those days I could not have survived in the big city the dole paid barely enough to live on... and having no relatives there didn't help, you got to think its pretty hard for a 16yr old to live by him/herself in a place you were not brought up in.

At school I got very good marks in all subjects, wanted to go to uni and become a architect I had all the credentials good math and excelled in art and tech studies.
The problem was money there was no way I could afford it, my parents could not afford to send me and there was no part time jobs around that I could work at that time, because they were all taken up by the people who had been laid off from their fulltime jobs(recession).
At this time Austudy was just starting... they said my parents earnt to much for me to qualify even though my fathers wage from the EWS was barely above the poverty line!

Well I ended up in the city, still couldn't get a real job I was there for 12mths and scored a job at jeans factory, but I couldn't work there because the acid washing in clorine process they used gave me bad dermitis(and I still am suffering because of it), then I had job at a lighting factory(crazy daves)putting light fittings together.
They decided that they wouldn't pay me and a friend of mine, so once again I was on my ass and had to shift back with my parents because of the BS that the CES and SS put you through If you left a job... even if the employer didn't pay you!

I got so depressed in those days from all the knock backs and dead ends I just gave up... ended up a long term unemployed nohoper as the saying goes.

So when you say someone is a dole bludger think why are they like that, there may well be a reason why.

I ended up getting a job by chance only, in 94 I decided that the only way I could get a potential employer to even look at me was to reenter the schooling system. I went back to school at the age of 22 and redid yr12 as a mature age student, my grade scores were some of the highest in the state.
But once again I had real money trouble thanks to austudy they expected me to live on $38per fortnight that's real good money considering I was a full time student and living on my own.
Managed to last 2 terms, only because I sold nearly everything I owned to do it. At my tethers end I was ready to give up again, then a bloke at the CES found out that the government was forcing large business's to employ a certain amount of long termers like me. He got on to the local smelter and got me on the list, I did their BS accer tests and passed with ease.
Three months went past didn't hear anything, so I shifted back to the city again within two days of being there I received a call from my mother "you were supposed to start work yesterday!" It turns out some paper shuffler forgot to notify me that I had been accepted in...
I'm still there in the same job, quite happy earning a reasonable living... long service is due now.
I'm still the only long-term unemployed person that they have ever employed, instead they usually take in tradey's of at least 25yrs of age(proved long-term workers)because they need reliable people that will stick there for the rest of their working life's.

The cost of training in my job is phenomenal, because of the OH&S rules when molten metal is concerned a trainee must be supervised at all times, so to train someone they first pay the trainee and then the trainer and then a overtimer to cover the position of the trainer, so to train one it cost about 4 wages(OT is all DT and the average wage is $55k+)plus then they have to get all the licences like crane/rigging/forklift etc etc, too be fully trained and fully effective at the job takes upto 2 yrs and 3 hundred thousand $$$ they estimate.
The big problem they have is they cant just grab a employee from anywhere as we are the only lead smelter in Australia, there nowhere else you can get the training required for this job.

The funny thing is all the blokes(all tradeys) that started at the same time as me have left them high and dry mostly because they didn't like the conditions and couldn't handle the shift work...

[RufflyRustic]

Harry72, gotta give you KUDOS mate! Good on you for sticking it out and winning through.

Cheers
RufflyRustic

[Dusty]

Interesting thread, this one.

Personally, I still think a lot of the problem lies with the actual kids themselves that we put on as apprentices, or juniors, or trainees, call 'em what you will.

They simply aren't that keen on work! Many are unfit, out of condition and the mere thought of a hard days work sees them exhausted before they have even started.

There are many, many spoilt teenagers out there who have had it handed to them on a plate and so therefore have no work ethic to speak of. Lets face it, kids today have so much stuff just given to them by their well to do parents that the urge to work is completly smoothered.

Even have a look inside houses within the so called poverty belt, people at the low end of the financial spectrum and you will find two or three televisions, a computer, X box, PS2, a gazzilion DVD's, possibly a cable TV hook up, a mobile phone or two. The list goes on and these are the so called poorer folk.

As we step up in class we find the same toys, just maybe newer or in better nick, but the same stuff nonetheless.

The point I'm driving at here is why do they need to go and work their butts off, particularly doing manual work in a trade, when they can stay home play with the provided toys, smoke some dope, and drink some beer? I know what I'd rather do given the choice. So I can't blame them on that score.

It's not until they hit their twenties (or later) that the need to earn a living kicks in and they begin to become responsible enough to turn up for work each day and actually put in a decent days toil.

I've hired my fair share of young blokes over the past twelve or so years, and seriously, they are just not worth the hassle, they start of in a blaze of glory doing 'mans work' and a fortnight later there've had a gut full. Next comes the late starts, the days off, the problems with the current squeeze and then the worst part is they don't give a rat's clacker bag about the quality of the work we 'older' tradies are trying to produce.

And, worse still is the mistakes they make, which are often only made through sheer laziness and complete lack of care. These mistakes can and do cost the business owner money, time, or worst of all his reputation. Is it worth the risk, the hassle? I can tell you, I'm over it.

Now, on the plus side, it can be such a rewarding feeling to train someone to do what you do, to teach them skills that can carry your trade into the next era, to help someone out with their financial questions and answer some of their questions about life from an older blokes perspective and experience.
As you might gather from this, I have had some success with a youngster and this kid was brilliant. He learn't fast, he was switched on, he was on time everytime and he had an eye for detail. Unfortunately, he also had an eye for this hot, little, blonde, piece from America. He now lives with her and her family in Boulder, Colorado and is getting married in September. Damn it.

So, the answer is. Somehow we teach our next generation the value of good, honest work from the age of sixteen. Or, we begin apprenticeships from age twenty five, just when they might be getting their stuff together.

Until then I'll stick with the older guys who I can get a decent days work out of.

[maglite]

After reading my first post and being surprised at the height of my rant.....Castlemaine Brewery and his dozen little friends have a lot to answer for:o .
Seriously tho, When i said force i should have said, encourage, and it seems to me that there is no accountability anymore.No one is prepared to give a stuff because in a lot of cases they simply dont have to.
Case in point: I employed a guy (30 years old) last week,great references and a really strong work ethic(according to his current employer).
He said he really needed extra work as his other part time job wasnt enough, so i put him on.
He worked Monday and Tuesday last week and that is the last time i have seen him, apparently (according to his mother) the work wasnt for him.....he was working 3 hours a day:eek: . Ok i realise that you have got to like what you are doing, but what gives me the S**TS is that i didnt even get a phone call to say that he wasnt interested.....i doubt that Centrelink will call either.
It took 2 hours of inductions just so he could get on site and about all he did was make me and my business look stupid in front of my clients:mad: .
From now on im gonna stick with people my age and older......the younger ones arent worth the hassles.

[Harry72]

Just because 1 or 2 lazy people dont want to earn money because it involves some self sacrifice, dont label all like that.
As that was one of the reasons I had so much trouble in my younger years, because no one would give me a go in the 1st place. I couldnt get a trade type job because they wanted previous expirence, how can you get it without them giving you a go in the 1st place.
They had so many people to choose from back then, it took a uni degree to get a job at Macca's.

I think when employing the younger generation, that if you stick by them for a few years and put up with the crap... you'll end up with a good worker as respect is earnt over time not in a instant.

This is what I think could help,
High school students should under go a test of some sort to find out,
1. what skills they are best at learning
2. what mentality they have, as in physical, social, civil(no point training a non phyisical person to do say a brickys job...)
3. what the actual student wants to do... put them through 3 or 4 weeks of each trade they choose on the job, so as to make sure thats what they want to do.

Once they asitain what skills/job suit they should be trained towards these trades, ie if the student is good with social/academic skills and doesnt like physical they could be trained in management, polictical or IT even. The next student has good hands on/techinical skills doesnt mind physical but doesnt have very good social/academic skills they could be the bricky , mechanic or even a architect if they have the mental capability.

Once at the end of the high schooling years students should be retested and given several options/job types that they can follow...
Once they decide,
Trade apprentices/ scholarships should not be trained by private/corprate buisness, they should be trained in proper establisments by the government... then buisnesses should pay a 1 time fee to obtain the new fully "trained to a set spec" employee.

Maglite
What your saying is the very reason my place of work(600+ non-staff employees) will not employ process operators under the age of 28, apprentices start at 16 tho... their cheaper to train and can be replaced easily!

[Gingermick]

becoming a compassionate society

Sorry to be picky but isn't it spelt compa$$ionate?http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif
Mick

[sinjin1111]

One area where a few trades people have gone apparently to the dole office is. Guys paying child support and being driven into the ground.
I was listening to parliament the other day when a poly said that something like 70% of all working class men who were paying child support are now on the dole.
That has to be a huge number and i'm guessing an awful lot are trades men wanting to work but can't becuase of the way the system works. It makes you wonder how the Gov. can bring in trades people from overseas at a cheaper rate than wanting to solve this problem of getting more back into the work force. Surely they can't all not want to work
Sinjin

[Peter57]

I enjoy reading the board and probably don't write enough, but this thread has got me thinking. In other parts fo the board we hear something like "the government should keep out of.....(insert the topic of conversation)"

Here we say the government should be responsibility for training apprentices, it's not the job of tradespeople. There's a logical disconnect.

Who gave most of you tradies the training you needed, some bloke with a business to run and a desire to pass the skills on to the next generation. Sure some were trained by bigger industries that had carpenters shops, fitters shops etc. Those days are gone. Most of that work is sub contracted out. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's life in 2005.

In the past there were still a lot of blokes who took on apprentices outside of those larger companies. Where are they now?

Then there is the arguement that the average tradies can't afford to train an apprentice because it's too costly (i.e he won't make enough money in the year) but then a larger company that makes a decision not to train apprenticed, based on profit (i.e they won't make enough money in the year) they are railed against. Again, I can't see the logic.

I think there are many reasons for employing apprentices and trainees, none of them have short term economic impact but they are essential for the long term health of a business. In every company I have worked with over the past few years I have encouraged interaction with the universities to help new students get a break and some useful experience. (don't go all tradesman elitist on me here. In most fields a uni degree is just a higher level trade course - maybe not a trade using hand tools but a trade none the less)

Then we have the arguement that kids these days aren't much chop.

Let me ask you all out there this question "how good were you when you started?" How many times did the boss give you a clip around the ear? How many times did you turn up for work after a hard weekend celebrating and still feeling a little seedy? I don't think things have changed too much. In my case I would say that I made a few silly mistakes, but my bosses were tolerant enough to cut me a little slack and give me guidance.

Over the past few 10 -15 years I've been privelaged to train some students, help a few of them get work experience, summer jobs, worked supervising honours theses, etc. Some are good some are lazy (I gave my mates son summer work once - never again!). But in most cases the kids want to learn and even those with bad attitudes can be helped to learn - it just takes a little more effort.

I have 3 of my own. 2 at Uni and one still in school. Do they like work - not particularly. Will they work hard? I hope so. All I hope is that somebody out there will give them an opportunity and be as patient with them as I hope they will be with the next generation.

So let's not blame others for the lack of the next generation in our particular area of skill. Let's see what we can do to promote our trade and encourage others to pusrsue it. Then do something pro-active about training others.

[lash]

I'm looking for a carpentry apprenticeship, eager to work and willing to learn.
I'm at TAFE doing a prevoc woodtrades course. In a fewweeks when I've finished the course I will have completed the first 6 of 18 weeks of trade school for the first year of my apprenticeship (be it Caprentry, Joinery or cabinetmaking) .. which I've paid for myself.
I've got a green card ticket done restricted height scaffolding, and done some onsite work building veranda's.
I can't get the dole so your solution doesn't help me out, Mick.
Still I have a better idea of how the employer feels about taking on apprentices.
How do they feel about taking on female apprentices???

[journeyman Mick]

Lash,
I wouldn't have a problem with the apprentice's gender, but it's a very male dominated industry and there's probably plenty out there who wouldn't dream of taking on a female apprentice. When I was working at the boatbuilding yard I pushed the foreman to take on a female boilermaker apprentice. She was keen and energetic and her work put a lot of others to shame, it amde a lot of the blokes pick up their game.

One issue is strength, there's no two ways about it, the male body is inherently stronger than a females on a kilo for kilo of muscle basis. Working as a cabinet maker or joiner this won't be too much of an issue but carpentry work (framing) is really hard on the body. I'm only 1680 high and about 80kg and I often struggled. Dragging green hardwood battens up onto a roof for a few hours in the tropical heat is a killer. I've got a worn out shoulder, dodgy lower back and recurrent tendon problems in both my forearms and I'm only 43.

Having said that though, from what I've seen I reckon that a carpentry apprenticeship will give you a broader base than cabinetmaking or joinery apprenticeship, giving you more options to pursue. This is only based on the people I've dealt with and quality of skills and knowledge that they have ended up with. All the best with your search for employment.

Mick

[Schtoo]

Sorry. Maybe I am part of the problem here, as I am no longer in Oz doing my part. Was a sparky before I left.

Then again, for 40 hours a week there, I would take home maybe $700.

20 hours a week here, and take home a little bit more. Hourly rate is only a little bit higher here and that much cash has the same buying power here as it does there for day to day living.

So in effect, nothing has really changed money wise for me.

If you suspect that I think there is something drastically wrong with the tax system, you might be right. ;)

[RufflyRustic]

Hi Lash

Go for it - find all the shops and builders in your area and go see them. If you really want to become an apprentice, then don't let people stop you from realising your dream. Talk with the groups that arrange apprenticeships and see what they can do for you.

Mick's made some sound comments - I'm sure others here would be able to provide some hints and tips for getting an apprenticeship.

Please let us know how it goes.

Cheers
RufflyRustic - Wendy

[Metal Head]

Mining boom - Teens Paid Up To $90,000

By 7News

A shortage of skilled workers in the mining industry is delivering young workers some very big pay packets. Months after enrolling in a TAFE course, teenagers are joining the boom times on $90,000 per year. Warwick Palm, 19, did a course that assured him a job in an industry that was going to need another 70,000 recruits over the next decade. "It's a cheap course, it's only $700 for the 20-week course and yeah, you're finished in no time, out into the industry and making the big bucks," Mr Palm said.

Between $60,000-$90,000 year has been guaranteed to graduates who complete a 20-week drilling course at Central TAFE in Perth. "We can't actually push enough graduates through the programme to meet demand," Perth Central TAFE's Kevin Chennell said. They come out as qualified drilling offsiders: tough work, usually a long way from any town, operating million dollar equipment. "They drill holes down to 1500m depth, so if you're running a drill pipe down that far and you're trying to hit a target, you've really got to know what you're doing," Graeme Wallis of Wallis Drilling said. The mining skills shortage is now spread across four states, including New South Wales and beyond.

Workers are also needed in Mozambique and Brazil. But the work is not just for drillers: the mining industry needs electricians, mechanics, engineers, construction workers and lots of others. "It opens up a whole stack of frontiers to anybody that's enthusiastic and energetic and prepared to have a go," Minerals Council of Australia spokesman Mitch Hooke said.

[boatchippy]

I love skills shortages.

Bring on the skills shortage.

Where's the skills shortage?

Is there a skills shortage?


At present I feel there is no real skills shortage for people in the woodworking trades and especially in the marine joinery/cabinetmaking or shipwrighting sector.
Since November 2006 I've had a least five people ask me for work.

I'd love to put on an apprentice, unfortunately work just isn't constant and the large wooden boat restoration and contruction jobs I have done in the past just aren't there anymore. Although I recieve many requests for projects to be carried out, I ROTFLMAO at some of the budgets I'm expected to work to. Just a waste of time tendering for the work.

Unfortunately I couldn't keep the chippy I had working for me as I saw 12 months work lined up come down like a pack of dominos in the weeks leading up to Easter. This isn't good.
Pollies need to be very careful when they say things like "The Australian worker has never had it so good".
I think if the 'resources boom' veil were lifted we wouldn't be looking so great. Although we're floggin off real estate, slapping up boxes and throwing credit around like chook food, I feel that the hype about skills shortages for most trades is exactly that. An excuse to free up the movement of labour from overseas.
Why send the factories overseas when it's cheaper to bring the cheaper labour here? Only gotta look at the rorts on the news reguarding the numbers of visa workers being ripped off, paid lower wages and charged excessive fees for living expenses etc.


Anyhow as a previous poster stated its the nature of doing business now, profit above all else , in our brave new world of consumerism.
The people at the bottom of the business pyramid find it harder to make a dollar and the woodbutchery trades are pretty much ground level.
I can't believe that in the year 2007 there's still cabinetmakers working for $15 an hour or less. That used to be a highly reguarded and skilled trade.
My trade as a shipwright is completely dead and is slowly resurecting itself as a cottage industry. When I started my time in the 80s there were 50 first year shipwrights at Ultimo TAFE, in just three years there were 5 first year apprentices. This was during the "recession we had to have".

I feel the (boatbuilding/repair) industry hasn't really recovered from that period onward. There's been a few booms here and there but nothing like it was. At this time the nature of employment in my trade changed drastically. Full time employment was no longer offered and working conditions consisted of either casual or sub contract labour due to the feast or famine nature of business.
It is easier and in most parts cheaper to employ sub contractors than casual staff.
There is a $7k grant now (in Qld) to put on an apprentice. Also, I think most trades now have pre apprenticeship TAFE courses, whereby a prospective apprentice completes the required course for their choosen trade prior to employment out in the field. This is a great for employer and apprentice IMO as you have people with 'some' experience entering the work environment instead of a 'babe in the wood'. But. At the thick end of the iceberg, the work has to be there, interesting work, not just the dregs.

wew! I'm having a coffee...anyone want one?

[bitingmidge]

boatchippie,

Far be it for me to hose down the romantic ideal that people can actually make money working on old boats, but let's face it, it's a "calling" not a trade.

There is very little work for farriers, wheelwrights, coopers, or stenographers any more. I imagine a 45 year old stenographer would be just about unemployable.

Australia just doesn't have the combination of maritime history, quality craft, and wealthy nutcases that is needed to support a large boat building community, but it does have mines, houses, factories and the spinoff from all those things, one of which is the creation of wealthy nutcases who may just fall in love with an old wooden boat one day.

Try employing an electrician in Bundaberg, or a roof plumber in Innisfail, or a cabinet maker in Gladstone. Then tell me about a shortage!

Cheers,

P (currently trying to become a wealthy nutcase, to keep all the wooden boat builders in Aus employed!
:D :D :D

[rat52]

Okay.
My 1st yr apprentice wage was $12.50 per week and the old man said bugger that a labourer gets more than thatand paid me $20.00

This has not changed so why would kid work their guts out for 2 yrs ore more to get an equal labouring or factory/unskilled job

I started as a superviser with a builder who said he had a gang of 8 carpenters. He didnt tell me 5 were apprentices one 1st yr 2 second yr 1 third & 1 fourth .

The job was 2nd fix polished oak so I told them tight joints on the ave mitres.

They complained the mitre saw was not cutting accurately. I checked it. It was ok so I told them to fit the mitres and was met with blank stares. With a plane I said.

This is the scary bit. Only one possessed a plane .None had a oil stone or any idea how to tune or even properly set one.

All they had been trained to use were power tools to maximise productivity.

One third yr even refused to use a hammer when the nail gun broke as it would be too slow. She actually couldn't skew nail by hand.

I spent the next 4 weeks trying to train them in the use of hand tools.

The upside is some of them took it on board and their interest in the work improved .

I am sure this is just one story of many.

[Andy Mac]

A very interesting and robust discussion. Seems like misdirected policy by govt, but now I hear there is a call for HECS based funding for TAFE students! Sorry if I've missed the correct reasons for falling intake at uni level, but most of us here blame rising HECS debt on graduating as a major cause. How on earth is it going to increase TAFE numbers?!:o

Just a couple of observations about issues brought up here:
1/ I had a mate who did his apprenticeship in aircon as a mature age guy, heaps of work... they can't get enough workers and worked him senseless. So much work in fact they were very reluctant to send him for his block at TAFE. When he finally got there, he realised how much theory (ie. understanding of the systems he worked on) he was lacking. Basically he was employed as a lackey to fit as many units as possible.
2/ A well known local cabinetmaker/craftsman, who many of you will recognise through AWR, trained in Germany, and dare I say it, reaching the twilight of his career, refuses to take on an apprentice! I had a big chat with him regarding this, and he simply couldn't afford, as a one-man show, to employ someone he had to supervise...being non-productive. This gent has an enormous skill-base, learnt during a traditional apprenticeship and many years on the job, and it won't get passed down!:(

Cheers,

[HappyHammer]

Hi....is this the "Who can submit the longest post" thread?:no:

HH.

[HappyHammer]

However, who would take me on as an apprentice and pay me enough to live on. I think it's this that is the stumbling block,
I think this is yours and Sc's dilemma, you're at a point in your life where the money required to support your standard living is more than you can earn doing something you enjoy. Come to think of it I think it's mine too.:U :doh:


I have three degrees, started the fourth last year but gave it away as it took way too much time and money....
Cool I always thought that 3 was enough and two doesn't work without diana ross:roll:


Having a year off to work between Grade 12 and Uni is, IMHO, nearly essential. As I work at a uni, it's been interesting to see which students appreciate the opportunity to study and the hard work needed, and which students just want to hang out and party. The students who study after a break from High School always seem to get more out of the their study than those fresh from High School.
I'd guess that's because the kids straight from school are prolly brain dead and sick of study...I know I was but unfortunately Uni wasn't an option for me as my parents couldn't afford to keep me for four more years and I didn't apply myself well enough to get a scholarship...not that any of those were available anyway.:U

HH.

[HappyHammer]

Hi....is this the "Who can submit the longest post" thread?:no:

HH.

Dingo,

Quick get in here it's your Nirvana....:U

HH.

[Wild Dingo]

My history is probably much like Harrys only chuck it back a few years Im 50 left school system at 13 and have been on the dole exactly ZERO times over all that time... Ive worked at WHATEVER work was available shoveling shyte driving shearing mustering carpentry bricklaying prawn trawling whatever the hell job would take me I did... maybe I only last a few weeks at some of them... but back in the 70s and 80s work was plentifull and by that I meant as an unqualified untrained jack of all trades master of none there were 4 jobs to choose from at any time.

I also returned to the education system at 30 while the missus worked and a cousin babysat the then 4 kids... got my year 12 as a mature age thinking it would help get a better sort of job... it didnt... so a few years later I did a correspondence Uni course in counselling... great investment of saved scrounged begged and borrowed money ever... it took 3 years instead of 2 due to family financial needs but persistance payed off... a year later I was still doing voluntary work as a counsellor because no one would hire me unless I had experience so I volunteered... no living in that

I worked hard set up my own business based on the gratis system ergo pay if you can the rate is thus donate if you cant rate is thus... made a lot of tucker that way never had an issue with our cars or needed a thing done that wasnt done by clients... worked out well with Jo working 20 hours a week... that went okay for 8 years until the 8th kid came along... suddenly we realized things must change so we moved south to Perth where I worked for Mission Australia within their office working with long termed unemployed with major preclusions to employment... did that till I hit a minor wall and burnt the fuses in my head a bit then moved over to another agency as a career guidance officer trainer did that for a couple of years until the big burnout happened and I walked in the office door looked around knew what was coming walked into the bosses office and resigned... I had 3 months holiday well not a holiday a time of mind recovery I call it cause mostly I was unable to function due to my head space being frazzled by 12 years of listening to other peoples problems...

I took a chance and went to Kal on speck for work in the mines spent 6 weeks out there getting dribs and drabs a week here a day or two there... all the while seeing the finances crash through the floor... I was on the verge of going back to counselling again when I got the start at the underground mine... I was till that point I believe claustraphobic but I needed to work so I gave it a whirl and loved it... so we moved down here 2 years ago a month later we had the flood and lost 90% of what we owned... I then lost my job because I couldnt leave Jo and the kids in the situation we were in...

So for the first time at 48 I went in with my then 18 year old son to apply for the dole... the rate they quoted me to get the dole was $125 per week! My mortguage was more than that! I walked out without signing a thing... I think at the end when Jo worked it all out we would have been getting somewhere around 400 per week with her child endowment money included... thing was that we were at that time broke I mean flat out no cash anywhere broke with 6 kids still living at home...

So what would you have done? accepted the dole? or gone "get stuffed" and start hammering on doors?

Most doors I found were closed to me based on two bases... first my age at 48 I was too old!!! second was Id been a counsellor for 12 years and a truck driver in UNDERGROUND operations for 2 so all my other experience was over 14 years in history... so no relevent recent history... so for almost a month i was buggared all the while we were trying to throw out almost everything we owned fighting with the east coast based insurance company trying to live as a family in some sort of "normalisy" which wasnt possible since me and the young bloke were living in the back of the F100 here on the property and Jo and the nippers were at her mum and dads tiny 2 bed cottage built in 1930 and definantly not made to have 5 little kids and 1 adult living in it... normal? not bloody likely... but find work? again not likely... one of the other problems I had was that I had exactly 2 pairs of overals and some jocks and socks left to my name everything else was gone... so I was going from place to place without a resume in a pair of overalls and no workboots!! definantly not a good look but the best I could do... explain the situation? I NEVER got the chance! straight up "no theres nothin here mate"

So for nearly 3 months we struggled in a town we didnt know among people who didnt give a flying rats ass... (theres more to that but not for here)

Thing was eventually I got a job with Cats out at worsley supposedly a full time position did the induction signed the WPA not a choice matter dont sign it dont start that simple... did the 3 months starter period no worries at the end of which I was given an "addendment" to the WPA right at the busiest time of my workday and told "Sign this Shane" so I did... a month later I was out on my ass...

Luckily by then we had things pretty much sorted... so back to the underground as the same sort of door slamming things started happening as I looked for work in the Bunbury region

Okay so that didnt work cause my bod decided it had had enough and a series of medical issues a fair amount of hospital time later and Im looking down the barrel of being unemployed once the W/C is over in about a month

So at 50 its going to WITHOUT doubt become even harder for me to find work around here or within the mining industry.

That crap about the mining industry is just that crap... a startup no experience basic mine worker ie: conny worker truck driver drillers offsider will get 23 - 25 per hour after 3 years he will be hopefully if hes confident enough be able to demand maybe 30 an hour...good money? for sure for being away from home society kids mates girlfriends lovers and life for 2 - 5 weeks at a time... some can handle it some cant but if they go expecting to go straight up from a conny worker truck driver to a bogger operator jumbo operator or on the surface to an excavator operator driller FORGET IT!!... In the 3 years Ive been in the industry Ive not once seen ANY truck driver or conny worker being UPSKILLED to operate the more money paying machines!! NOT ONCE!! were talking about training onsite to operate the machines that pay upto and above 1000 a day to operate... They are NOT training anyone to fill these slots!... so aahhh theres going to be a "skill shortage" in the industry for skilled bogger jumbo excavator and drill operators isnt there? but theres a bunch of truck drivers conny workers ONSITE who would LOVE the opportunity to train to be just that but the companys dont even consider them... theyre truck drivers or conny workers brain dead dipsticks so not worth the effort so the hue an cry will go up "oooh poor buggar me Ive got a skill shortage"

Mining companies have the bigest bunch of bloody imbiciles in their training development sections of any industry bar none! so go for it go earn the big bucks as a truck driver but dont expect to get trained to make more money operating the other machines that drive a mine cause it aint going to happen! and forget about training to be a OH&S person onsite cause that DEFINATLY aint going to happen!... you'll be a dipstick truck driver conny worker and thats the end of it.

ahem... the above rant is from a "dipstick truck driver" in the mining industry :doh:

Id do just about anything NOT to have to return to the mining industry... to not have to leave Jo and the kids to be able to share their lives on a regular basis as a dad and husband... but I cant simply put Ive been unable AND BROTHER HAVE I LOOKED!!! unable to find anything that pays a LIVING wage around here... so I will be going back not with Byrnecut for sure and probably not with Barminco although id go back with them in a shot good company in my book but theres a lot of companies out there looking for "dipstick truck drivers" and it does pay a good living wage albeit at a huge cost to a family man with kids.

Okay why? well here I can earn 19 per hour as a truck driver working 10 hours a day 6 days a week with one day off a week... up there I can earn 30 (Im confident enough and been in it long enough now to demand and get it) an hour 12 hours a day 14 days straight with a week off... simple economics after a long period of illness and time off dictates that I must go to catch up... if I could find an employer around here willing to pay 25 per hour for me to work 12 hours a day on the same rotation I would jump at it!! Id gladly take a drop of 5 an hour to stay home with Jo and the kdis just to be here be a hubby be a dad and share their lives.

Oh and my younger brother is a ferrier and makes a shyteload at it!!... he tried a few years ago to get away from it got himself a job at the local prison as a guard but has been in demand as a ferrier and has now gone back to it... he spends more time FIXING botched jobs done by the trained "professional" ferriers throughout the state than doing new work... but has more work on as a ferrier than he ever had before... he hasnt found anyone with a vocation to be trained none of the family want to do it or are interested in horses enough and the only advertising hes done led to a bunch of no hopers walking in and walking out once they saw the work he did so he works on alone

And now Ive got to here I have no bloody idea what my initial intention was when I started typing this :roll: :doh:

Interesting thread by the way :2tsup:

[HappyHammer]

Dingo,

Quick get in here it's your Nirvana....:U

HH.
That crystal ball is great.....

HH.

[Wild Dingo]

That crystal ball is great.....

HH.

:U :U Mate I was just warming up :o ... but a bit over halfway through I sorta realized that I had no idea what the thread was about anymore so I thought... mmmm maybe I bedda shut up for a bit to try an figure it out... I think I sorta wombled around a bit eh? :B

But give me a few and I'll arc up again!! oooh Ive got some great rants building up someone mentioned Centrelink? THERES ONE RIGHT THERE!! :~ man can this be a major rant!! easy as!!... someone mentioned that the doles easy? THERES ANOTHERY!!... someone mentioned only wanting to hire older people? THERES The third! man I could go all day in this thread!!! EASY!!:2tsup:

Surely you dont want me to prove it do you? :;

[Gra]

:U :U Mate I was just warming up :o ... but a bit over halfway through I sorta realized that I had no idea what the thread was about anymore

hasnt stopped you before....:q:q:D:D

[Wild Dingo]

hasnt stopped you before....:q:q:D:D

nah guess not eh? :shrug: :roll: :;