Restoration old silky oak wardrobe

[angelmark]

Hi guys,
I'm a newbie, but reading your threads I feel encourage to give it a try and to restore my old silky oak wardrobe (ca 1930). I've cleaned so far the wardrobe with metho and fine steelwool and the dirt and grime came off fairly quickly (assume shellac was used before). However, the wood is still fairly dark and hasn't got that golden/honey wood look I've seen on some silky oak furniture. Would a shellac finish (dewaxed blonde shellac) bring a more yellow/golden/honey tone to the wood? Or any other suggestions ? Must mention that I never have used shellac before.

[Christos]

I have not done any restores so cannot comment on the actual question but as a general reply if you put on normal shellac it darkens the wood a little orangeish. My understanding is that blonde shellac does not do that, but have not used this personally.

The question I have, have you totally removed all of the previous finish? What about a photo or two, with and without flash.

[angelmark]

Thanks for your response. Yes, I've stripped the cupboard with metho (assuming it had a previous shellac finish) and cleaned. It still looks a bit dark, but I can see already the lighter wood. Might have to clean and sanding it a bit more. I've attached some photos, using the flashlight. Have to make some shots at daytime. However, my question is, will blonde dewaxed shellac bring the golden/honey tone in the silky oak out or not. Under no circumstances do I want to have the wood darker, the lighter the better :2tsup:

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Angelmark welcome to the world of old furniture restoration/re-polishing etc. Its all good, I was going to say fun :D, but sometimes it is just hard work, albeit the results can be really satisfying.

For sure, with a piece like yours and given it has responded to a cleanup (of the old surface/grime), using metho and steelwool I would agree with your assumption that most likely it had been shellaced.

As to your questions, firstly, orange shellac will give a piece a orange/yellow appearance once finished, however, the darkeness of the colour is dependant on a number of things, including the age of the wood (the piece of furniture), the type of wood (pine vrs say a hardwood, ie. silky oak) and from my experience simply the fact that it has previously been coated. Some of the coating would have soaked into the grain of the timber and hence it will come up darker.

The only way I think to get it have a lighter and say more honey tone, is possibly to give it a light sanding (but if you do, always follow the grain of the timber). I havn't tried blonde shellac and so am not experienced to comment on this.

The other thing I have found from experience is that the more coats of a finish you apply, the darker the end colour will be, but as I say that is based on the use of orange shellac, and/or oil finishes.

Someone like Woodwould probably would have some more definitive advice. The other thing perhaps to do is have a look at Ubeaut's product site (link from this forum) and see what it says about the different finishes.

The one thing I can say is that shellac is actually a really easy product to use. If you have a read on some of the project restoration threads you will see descriptions on how to mix, how to apply it and how to finish off.

Hope that helps a little.

[Antipodes]

Might be worth finding a small out of the way section (maybe inside a door) and really go solid with either fine sandpaper or steel wool and see how light you can make it come up. I'd be surprised if you can get it much lighter than it is now.

I always think the best way to judge how a piece of wood will look when it's got shellac on it, is to simply smear some saliva on a piece of untreated wood. That roughly approximates what you'll get (only shiny) allowing for slight differences in the type of shellac used.

Curious on your dating of the piece - stylistically it looks fairly Arts & Crafts/Art Nouveau inspired (roughly Federation period) and, though I know Australia was maybe a little behind the times with the latest trends back then, I still think it's probably closer to 1920 unless you've got some evidence or provenance that confirms that 1930 date.

Just checking that what looks like intarsia on the doors is actually inlaid wood - I made that assumption once on a similar piece only to discover it was a very skilful piece of painting made to look like intarsia (see photo).

[angelmark]

Thanks Horsecroft88 for your reply. :) Yes, I agree with you re satisfaction when you see the results of your hard work. I must admit it is a bit addictive (at least for me).:B I did more light sanding (following the grain of the timber) and found I have to be very careful with that. The timber has actually quite a lot of ‘scales’ (like fish scales) (see attached photo) and when sanding the timber the scales become a bit smudged. So, I tried it with a coarser steel wool (2-3) and ‘Howard’s Clean-A-Finish Wood Soap and it does a really good job. As you said, most likely the previous coat has been soaked into the grain and it would be very hard, if not impossible, to get rid off completely.
Encouraging to hear that shellac is actually an easy product to use, in particular as this would be my first preference. So, I’m going to do more research.
BTW I went to our local hardware store and the guys looked rather sceptical when I told them about my ‘project’ and first attempt of using shellac. Perhaps they don’t have much confidence in a woman to do that. :doh:
Cheers

[angelmark]

Thanks for your reply Antipodes.:U I got the timber a bit lighter by just using coarse steel wool and a wood soap. But you are right, most likely that is as good as it gets.
I agree with you, the cupboard is probably closer to 1920 than 1930. I checked the
'inlays' and yes, you are spot on, they're proper inlays:2tsup:.
I like your cupboard, looks a bit different to what is normally around.
Cheers

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Angelmark, from what you are saying I agree the approach of cleaning it back really carefully is definitely the best way, and if you don't need to sand, then don't is always good advice.

What I would suggest, if you like is have a look at my most recent thread on restoration of a table I have just completed (help needed with some projects). That and Lawry's one re his English Oak table. Lawry was also a first timer to the process of shellac finishing furniture and he did an excellent job, with the help of a number of us giving him some advice how to shellac finish.

The key to doing it correctly is a little patience and a bit of effort. The rest is pretty straight forward, so don't take any notice of the guys at the hardware shop. If they could they would probably suggest you coat with a couple of coats of polyeurathane, which would be totally incorrect for your cupboard.

I was having a look at the attached close up of the grain in the picture, and the effect is superb. My quick thought on what you see there re the fish scale appearance is something similar to the type of grain in some woods termed fiddleback. I might well be incorrect but it certainly has an appearance of that. I will attach a picture of a cedar chest of drawers I have which is fiddleback, the two top drawers being a little similar to your cupboard re this effect and also an old blackwood wardrobe which had fiddleback on the bottom drawers.

Either way, you don't want to destroy that appearance and once re-polished correctly, the effect of this will be superb. It should almost have a shimmering type of effect, depending on how you look at it. That is the grain appears to be moving. I am not sure how else to describe what I mean.

Look forward to seeing how this cupboard comes up.

[Horsecroft88]

A close up of the drawer on the old wardrobe, long since sold.

[angelmark]

Hi Horsecroft88,
thanks for your thoughts. Your are absolutely right, I don't want to destroy that appearance. Coming from Germany I don't have much knowledge about australian timber and I'm fascinated by what actually comes 'out of the wood' when it is stripped back and cleaned. I'm more hopeful now about the golden/honey tone, because the more I clean the timber the more it turns towards that colour. I still have to find out about the dewaxed blonde shellac, inparticular what it does to the wood. I've seen silky oak furniture with that golden/honey tone glow. Have a look at the attached picture of a silky oak scale knife. That's what I would like to achieve. It looks almost like a leopard.
Thanks for the photos. Very nice pieces of furniture.
Cheers - have to go back my cupboard, :)

[Antipodes]

You're from Germany? The wardrobe I posted I'm 99% sure is German Jugendstil (or Art Nouveau/Arts & Crafts as we tend to describe it). I bought it in Copenhagen and there was a dirty great "Kopenhagen" scrawled on the back in chalk so I'm just putting 2 and 2 together. Good luck with the project.

[angelmark]

Interesting:) Looks certainly European, lovely piece - of course, because it comes from Germany :;

Cheers

[Chief012]

Hi,

Just came across this and thought I would throw in my two cents. Experience based, rather than expert based!

I have used the Ubeaut white shellac before and was happy with the results. I have generally used your normal garden variety of shellac on the Kauri/Hoop pine pieces I have worked on before as it provides that wonderful warm glow to a light timber. I can understand why you would not want that on a Silky Oak piece.

I will attach a pic below showing the piece I used the white shellac on. As it was a mix of Blackwood and Huon pine I did not want to add too much colour to the timber. From memory I watered it down with metho 50% and applied a few coats maybe 4 to 6 - far less than I would have added to an all Kauri piece. I don't think it has the depth, however only added a very small amount of colour to the timber.

Hope this helps! Oh and its a beautiful wardrobe btw,..that grain is stunning and will come up a treat!

[angelmark]

Thanks Chief012 for throwing in your 'two cents'. :U Yes, I was actually tossing between super blonde /blonde dewaxed shellac or the dewaxed Ubeaut white shellac . I really do appreciate your imput, because after looking at your picture I'm now tending more towards the white shellac. Looks great what you have achieved:2tsup:
Did you use the already mixed/liquid Ubeaut white shellac or did you mix the flakes yourself?
Cheers:)

[Chief012]

Bitte Schon!

I bought a 500ml bottle of the ready mixed and just diluted it with more metho to thin it. As I mentioned from memory about 50/50.

Good luck and remember to post some photos when you are done!

[angelmark]

Alright, I'm nearly there, only few more questions:
Brushes ? What sort of brushes should I use? What sort of quality? Would a 2 inch brush be too big ?:think2:

[Chief012]

A nice soft one. and the best quality brushes you can afford! But dont fly to Siberia in search of a sable to use,...you probably dont need to go to that level! :)

I have used a 2 inch brush before, and got good results. You may need to rub it down with 0000 grade steel wool between coats to remove any flaws or excessive build up. Take it slow and dont try and apply too much or too many coats at once.

[angelmark]

Vielen Dank Chief012 :) . I purchased a 2 inch purdy brush today, which seem to be of good quality (nice and soft). The next step is to order the white shellac (can only get it over the internet/U-beaut). But I'm not in a hurry, still have to do some cleaning/sanding on the cupboard before I can apply the shellac. Is there a trick to 'extend' the drying time of the metho/shellac mixture(adding something) to it) ?

[angelmark]

Ahh, just read that nylon brushes are not recommended for shellac. :no:
Hmm, the brush I bought is a nylon/polyester blend (Purdy 2" XL-Sprig). Any thoughts ?:?

[mic-d]

The speccy grain you're seeing there is medullary rays from the quartersawn cut, not fiddleback figure. Very nice Silky.

[Antipodes]

i would have thought that using a rubber with simple straight strokes might be the best approach. Will save having to think about brush stroke marks.

[angelmark]

Rubbing, using a pad, might be a bit difficult, considering the groves, curves ect.(see photo). Not sure myself what's the best approach. :?

[angelmark]

Thanks mic-d for your comment. Interesting, didn't know that. :)

[Chief012]

Considering the size of the wardrobe it would not be a quick job however I would use a "wad" or rubber to apply the shellac. It would be a ok on the curves and grooves, and there has been furniture finished for centuries with this method.

There are a few ways to achieve a similar result, depends which one you are comfortable with.

I dont know of any way to extend the drying time. My experience is that the weaker the mixture, ie more metho, the easier it is to apply as it is thinner and less chance of uneven build up. Hope this helps

[angelmark]

Thanks Chief012.:) What is a 'wad' or a rubber. Is there a difference between them ?

[Chief012]

Wad or rubber is the same thing, basically it's the device that applies the shellac to the furniture. I just did a quick google and this is a reasonable summation:

"A very good one is from a piece of cotton t-shirt or similar material and a good healthy wad of gauze. Wad the gauze into a ball about the size of a walnut and put it inside the t-shirt material and fold the sides and corners up to make a nice handle. The pad is savable and reusable as long as it's kept sealed in a jar with a tight lid. If it gets left out and dries it should be thrown away though and a new pad made."

[angelmark]

:2tsup:Ahh, excellent, thank you Chief012. Now, waiting for the white shellac to arrive and then off it goes...rub-rub, pad-pad :wink:

[Chief012]

Photos photos photos! :)

[angelmark]

I certainly will.
BTW did you fill the pores and grain of the wood with pumice powder after the first application of shellac ? Perhaps it depends on the sort of wood..... silky oak doesn't appear very porous and might not this sort of 'pre treatment'. :)

[Chief012]

Excellent!

I have never used pumice as I have never done what I would consider to be "French polishing" I have only ever applied shellac and then wax polished it or applied shellac and a wipe on polly over the top. One day I would like to learn though!

Good luck

[angelmark]

Makes sense what you're saying. Perhaps, I skip 'grain filling', because I really don't want to achieve a high gloss finish (french polishing). I will be happy with a satin/medium glossy surface (modest as I am):wink:. Afterall, even it is nice silky oak wardrobe, it is certainly not a grand piano:D

[Chief012]

True, but still to be appreciated and enjoyed!

[Lawry01]

Guten Tag, wie geht es dir! :U
Welcome Angelmark! I've just caught up with your thread, and it looks like you have an interesting project! The piece is really quite lovely, and I'm sure with the help so far, and more to come no doubt (from this site) you will reap the benefits.
Just to add to the advice given so far, it does seem to me from the pics that you need to remove a little more from the surface (the darker parts seem to be remnant old shellac) Whilst I know this means a little more elbow grease, if there was one big lesson I learned when first on this forum, its not to skimp on this preparatory phase!! Also, to re-emphasise, the views on orange shellac (have only used this type) DONT listen to the shop dudes, for they know not what they say!!:~ I have had amazing success (with some amazing help from here) with shellac. I mixed my own, and the results on my old english oak desk speak for themselves. When I started on this desk it was completely 'violated'...modern polyurethane with a dark red jarrah stain!!!!!!!! :C Now it has its old worlde warm glow and charm back..so dont be too concerned about the darkness in your piece...I think its mainly old finish . Anyway..there are others here with far more knowledge than me, so take heed. Looking forward to your next steps! Lawry :2tsup:

[Antipodes]

I reckon just do the rubbing with the wad or rubber (cotton wool bundled up inside a piece of fine cloth also works a treat) and you'll get the result you want. There's probably some youtube tutorials (there is on everything else) but essentially you bring it in like it's a plane landing and then take it off at the other end. If you find it sticks (could be the temperature) a spot or two of paraffin oil or similar will just smooth it along.

But remember once you start, keep going until you can't do anymore. That bit will then be done. Not too long after that get some furniture wax and rub it into the finish with 0000 steel wool (your new friend) and it should come up wonderfully.

If you make a mistake (sometimes you'll find the rubber will stick as you're applying it, for example), just sand the whole area down a bit with 400 grit wet and dry sandpaper and mineral turpentine (remember to wear gloves), wash off the gunk quickly with warm soapy water, dry it quickly and then you're ready to start again.

This is why people love shellac - you rarely have to totally strip it back even is you mess up.

[angelmark]

Hallo Lawry01:U Du sprichst ja deutsch :) :cool:
Thanks for your encouragement and tips. Yes, elbow grease is certainly the word. Looks like previously a wood stain or darker shellac has been used. Really difficult to get out, but I take your advise and keep going (no short cuts:no:) This forum is a real find:2tsup: Without all the helpful advise most likely I would have given up and would have gone for polyurethane:doh:. So glad I didn't.
Cheers

[angelmark]

Thanks Antipodes:) Really appreciate your tips:2tsup:. Got my Dewaxed White Shellac today and couldn't resist to give it a go. Did what you suggested and tried your method on a piece of pine board. Wow :U after the 4th application it came up very nicely. Actually, no need to sand in between coats, I'm surprised. This shellac is an amazing product:!. Just love it :yippee: Can hardly wait for the 5th/6th and then the final application with wax...
For the first application I used a brush, but then quickly changed over to a rubber/pad (a much finer application). Of course, I'm still in the experimental phase, but much more confident re the outcome. Before 'touching' the wardrobe I'm going to 'experiment' a bit more (plenty of wood under the house). Will be an interesting learning curve.

[Chief012]

Careful it's addictive!

[Lawry01]

Dont forget to post some WIP pics!!!!

[Horsecroft88]

Ah Ich sehe Lawry dich auch ein wenig Deutsch sprechen. Ich auch. Meine mutte ist Duetsch. heh heh. but I have to admit my language skills are somewhat rusty from a lack of use etc.

For sure Anglemark, the guys are absolutely correct, this shellacing business can get pretty addictive. I was getting a little high on the fumes from the metho etc on Sunday as I was polishing a little more woodwork in the Pantry in the kitchen out at the country house that we are restoring.

Using a brush can be effective for the trickier areas to cover, but for the flatter surfaces, padding it on is the way to go and will give you a really nice finish, especially more so after the cutting back and waxing final stage. I think my main message is don't be too afraid from having a go at trying it out on the wardrobe. The beauty with shellac is that it is such a relatively easy and forgiving surface finish to work with.

I have an old cedar table in the dining room at home, one of our cats had put a scratch on it. I literally cut the top back using 400 grade paper really lightly, padded on one coat of shellac, allowed it to dry and thereafter immediately cutback with 0000 steel wool and re -waxed the top. It came up fine. Total time for sorting this out, less than 20 mins on Sunday night. That is what I mean by it being forgiving and easy to use.

[Lawry01]

Ich spreche sehr wenig Deutsch, aber versuchen!
ANgelmark, how goes the progress. Dont forget to update and post pics. (says me who has been somewhagt recalcitrant around my two projects!!)

[Horsecroft88]

heh heh zehr gut mein freund, a man of many and varied tallents. But I suspect we are digressing from Angelmark's thread a fraction :D. However, I must admit, Lawry, you appear to have been a little quiet on your projects of late, but then again, I too have been.

As I was explaining via email to Chief the other day there has been a little bit more done on the dresser top, cleaning off the residual paint but that is about it. I really dislike that part of the project, (paint stripper, muck, teasing out paint out of joints, cracks etc), although in the end at last you can see what the wood looks like.

Right I suspect we probably should let Anglemark update us on progress re the wardrobe, when possible.

[Lawry01]

Lawry, you appear to have been a little quiet on your projects of late, .

:-:-:-

[angelmark]

Hi Guys,
euer Deutsch ist ja ganz toll :2tsup: Ich fuehle mich wie zu Hause in Deutschland:U Here comes the translation ( so the one who don't speak german know we are not talking 'naughty'): "your German is really great, feel like back home in Germany".
I've been working happily on the wardrobe (mainly rubbing, sanding) but then had to go interstate (work wise ) :C coping with withdrawal symptons:B I hurried back to Qld and now I'm reunited with my project, ahhh :D Will start again on the weekend. Hopefully, the first shellac will go on next week. Brushes, shellac, metho, rubbing pad all in place like a surgeon... Yes, it is addictive.......
Thanks for all the great tips, very much appreciated :)
Of course, I'll make a photo . However, my eyes are already on another project. But this one is really challening - I only say lots of intricate wood carving....:! :D
Cheers

[Lawry01]

Hi Guys,
euer Deutsch ist ja ganz toll :2tsup: Ich fuehle mich wie zu Hause in Deutschland:U Here comes the translation ( so the one who don't speak german know we are not talking 'naughty'): "your German is really great, feel like back home in Germany".


Ahhhh....Zeit zu bekennen! Mein Einsatz von BING Übersetzer ist ausgezeichnet!
(again..for those who dont speak German....."Time to confess! My used of Bing translater is excellent!!! :o:o) But glad we've made you feel like you're home again!! :wink: Looking forward to your pics etc., and the next project. If you need any help, rememnber, I'm also in Qld. Keep up the addiction.I'm going a bit slow on my projects, but getting there slowly. :ULawry

[Chief012]

Good to hear that you are progressing and that the first coat of shellac is not too far away :) Sadly, your addiction will only increase once the shellac goes on.

Sadly my German is limited to "travel" level, not restoration of furniture and encouragement level. I know enough to ask the basics and to get myself into trouble!

[angelmark]

Good to hear that you are progressing and that the first coat of shellac is not too far away :) Sadly, your addiction will only increase once the shellac goes on.

You're right, just got the taste for it and had already withdrawal symptons:B, wonder what's going to happen to me after the 3rd coat:D Tomorrow more sanding and then...:hapy::yippy:

[Chief012]

You're right, just got the taste for it and had already withdrawal symptons:B, wonder what's going to happen to me after the 3rd coat:D Tomorrow more sanding and then...:hapy::yippy:

Photos!!

[angelmark]

Hi Guys, just a short update on the project. I had to go overseas and just came back recently. So, I'm back on the project. Did a bit more sanding and I'm surprised how much lighter the wood still gets. However, there is some sort of small, light darkish/black residue in the grain, which I can't get rid off. I assume the wood has been stain. It comes to a point where I have to say this is as good as it gets otherwise I'm sanding and sanding until......
The last sanding was done with 320 grid, but the wood/grain is still fairly open. Wondering if I should use pumice powder to close the grain/making the surface more even. Not sure what will happen if I don't do that. I've put a fair amount of work into the preparation sofar, that I don't want to ruin the end result by cutting corners. Any thought on that ?

[Lawry01]

Welcome back Angelmark! From your description ( a pic would help) I suggest you're probably OK to prep for shellac. I was fairly sure that you would get to the shade/ colour you were after by a bit more hard work!! Maybe apply a sanding sealer first to fill the grain (havent used pumice powder before), and help with the nap? One of the forum sponsors, U-beaut, has some. or you could try bunnies. Then, shellac away I say!! Keep us all in the loop! Lawry

[angelmark]

Thanks Lawry01:) I recently watch on YouTube a German restorater (french polishing) who did the grain filling with pumice powder - lots of work :D
I'm not sure if this is really necessary for my silky oak wardrobe, because I don't want the 'high glossy effect'. On the other hand I'm not sure what's going to happen if I apply the shellac without having the 'grain filling' done. For example will it crack later? I have no idea what could potenially happen. I've attached some photos of the 'sanded' silky. The pictures really don't show much of the open grain. I made a close up photo and when you look closely you can see (or rather guess) the open grain (vertical).

[Lawry01]

Thanks Lawry01:) I recently watch on YouTube a German restorater (french polishing) who did the grain filling with pumice powder - lots of work :D
I'm not sure if this is really necessary for my silky oak wardrobe, because I don't want the 'high glossy effect'. On the other hand I'm not sure what's going to happen if I apply the shellac without having the 'grain filling' done. For example will it crack later? I have no idea what could potenially happen. I've attached some photos of the 'sanded' silky. The pictures really don't show much of the open grain. I made a close up photo and when you look closely you can see (or rather guess) the open grain (vertical).

ANgelmark, others on here with vastly more experience than me might want to chip in with their views. My limited expereience with a more open grain English Oak...if you want, look at an old thread of mine ( G'day folks...help with old english oak desk please. (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f173/gday-folks-help-old-english-oak-desk-please-151803/) ) with lots of peoples amazing advice! Here I simply used a grain filling sanding sealer and finished with around 8 -9 coats of shellac. The finish speaks for itself, and its not really glossy.

I love the grain in your piece, and I think the above approach would be fine...others may have differring/ additinal views..!

Lawry

[angelmark]

Thanks for your reply, Lawry01:) I've done more 'research' and I'm now more inclined not to use the 'grain filling' process. Because my concern is when doing the 'grain filling' that the 'texture' of the wood is lost and get a sort of plastic/laminated look (too perfect). I had a look at my other 'old' furniture and the wood has a fairly open grain, which looks actually great.
As far as I understand not doing the grain filling won't have an effect on the durability of the final finish. And that was my main concern.
Except some of the experts here in the forum advise me otherwise:no:, I'm going ahead with the first coat of shellac very soon.
I'll keep you in the loop. Cheers:wink:

[Lawry01]

Great...go for it! Looking forward to seeing your beautiful piece finished!! :)