French polish mop oil(which one?)

[Macleod]

Hey guys, I was just wondering what oils can be used when french polishing. I think I read somewhere that they have to be neutral pure oils? I heard of someone using extra virgin olive oil, would this work? I'm actually in the process of chasing up some mineral oil in the mean time(would have to go all the way to Ikea lol..).

Any help's appreciated, thanks.

[Wizened of Oz]

You don't have to go to Ikea for your mineral oil, just go to the supermarket and get Baby Oil. Same thing.

[Chief Tiff]

Traditionally linseed oil is used, but NOT BOILED!

Linseed oil used as a finish on its own was originally boiled to make it plasticise quicker, modern BLO has artificial additives to do the same thing. However when french polishing you only use the oil as a lubricant to stop the rubber from sticking to the polished surface. You need to be able to remove the oil afterwards, if you use BLO you might have a few problems at that point!

I don't see why olive oil wouldn't work..... but then again linseed oil isn't exactly expensive or rare. Your local Big Green Shed sells it in the paint section.

[Macleod]

Are there any additives in the baby oil products they sell at the shops? Will my end result smell of babies? lol.

And thanks for that Tiff, my mother also suggested linseed oil(she used to be a signwriter so used it while on the job). She also mentioned that it can randomly combust when left soaked in rags, which wouldn't be very helpful to me as I tend to leave things lying around - very forgetful lol.

[chris_77]

Hey guys, I was just wondering what oils can be used when french polishing. I think I read somewhere that they have to be neutral pure oils? I heard of someone using extra virgin olive oil, would this work? I'm actually in the process of chasing up some mineral oil in the mean time(would have to go all the way to Ikea lol..).

Any help's appreciated, thanks.

Hi there,
I would not use linseed oil cors is too thick and too sticky as well.do use only profrssional oils like http://bormawachs.it/prodotto.php?tp_id=5&id=44&lingua=2.somethimes I dont useany oils for french polishing but if you decided to use any then make shure that you would be able to take it off.good luck

[Woodwould]

Mineral oil, linseed oil (raw or boiled), engine oil (new or old)... any type will do. It's only on the surface for a brief time before being spirited off and, in the case of BLO, wouldn't remotely have time to dry.

[surfdabbler]

I have used olive oil. I can't say I'm an expert with french polish, but I read lots of recommendations that said olive oil is a good option, and is one of several oils that produce a harder finish in the shellac. It's also readily available in my house, and I don't have to go buy a whole bottle just to use a thimble full.

Make sure you use the stuff with the extra virgins in it.

[Woodwould]

...I read lots of recommendations that said olive oil is a good option, and is one of several oils that produce a harder finish in the shellac.
The oil is purely for lubricating the rubber so it doesn't 'grab' the soft (while it's being applied) polish and has absolutely nothing to do with the hardness of the dried shellac film.

[surfdabbler]

The oil is purely for lubricating the rubber so it doesn't 'grab' the soft (while it's being applied) polish and has absolutely nothing to do with the hardness of the dried shellac film.

According to Wikipedia, entry on French polishing...

"Typically, "softer" oils, such as mineral oil, will produce a glossier and less durable finish whereas "harder" oils, such as walnut oil (http://www.woodworkforums.com/wiki/Walnut_oil) and olive oil (http://www.woodworkforums.com/wiki/Olive_oil), will produce a more durable finish."

Not saying it's right. Just saying I read it. Perhaps what I thought I read is not what they meant. Myself, I have no clue. :)

[Woodwould]

According to Wikipedia, entry on French polishing...

"Typically, "softer" oils, such as mineral oil, will produce a glossier and less durable finish whereas "harder" oils, such as walnut oil (http://www.woodworkforums.com/wiki/Walnut_oil) and olive oil (http://www.woodworkforums.com/wiki/Olive_oil), will produce a more durable finish."

Not saying it's right. Just saying I read it. Perhaps what I thought I read is not what they meant. Myself, I have no clue. :)
I hear what you're saying, but I stand by my previous post. Much of Wikipedia's content is written and edited by old wives!

Most polishers swear by one oil or another, but as shellac is immiscible with and impervious to oil, the type of oil used is immaterial.

[Horsecroft88]

This discussion is a new one for me, for I have never used oils of any sort when French Polishing.

I am a little curious therefore, (a) am I doing something wrong or (b) if not why really use it, let alone (c) how to use it ?

All polishing I do, is either applied with a brush, so can't see why you would want to use oil with the shellac mix, or alternatively I make a pad and apply to the wood. Given that the metho flash dries so fast, if the surface is at all tacky I simply leave for a few moments to dry/harden before applying more shellac.

Again I am not sure I really see the need for oil. I also wonder (and probably because I havn't tried this), whether or not the oil might cause problems with the shellac mix, that is reactions and/or even stop it flash drying ?

Always keen to learn more...

[Woodwould]

This discussion is a new one for me, for I have never used oils of any sort when French Polishing.

I am a little curious therefore, (a) am I doing something wrong or (b) if not why really use it, let alone (c) how to use it ?

All polishing I do, is either applied with a brush, so can't see why you would want to use oil with the shellac mix, or alternatively I make a pad and apply to the wood. Given that the metho flash dries so fast, if the surface is at all tacky I simply leave for a few moments to dry/harden before applying more shellac.

Again I am not sure I really see the need for oil. I also wonder (and probably because I havn't tried this), whether or not the oil might cause problems with the shellac mix, that is reactions and/or even stop it flash drying ?

Always keen to learn more...
What you're doing is 'padding' on the polish – a simple and effective method of applying shellac. However, true, glass-like French polishing does traditionally involve oil so the polishing can proceed beyond the point one would stop when padding to allow the shellac to dry and not pull off.

The oil allows higher pressure to be used to manipulate the thick, soft shellac without pulling it off. The result is that the polish builds flatter and more quickly. 'Spiriting-off' removes all traces of oil.

[Chief Tiff]

It sounds as if what you're describing is more like varnishing. "Proper" :rolleyes: french polishing is very similar to spit polishing boots; you apply a coat by brush first then subsequent coats are rubbed on using a soft pad (called a "rubber") in a series of motions (circular, figure 8, left to right etc). The pad is "charged" with polish diluted with metho so that polish is released by firmly squeezing and/or pressing it.

Obviously pressing a polish and metho soaked pad firmly against a surface that may be only a few minutes old will cause the pad to stick and drag like hell. A drop of oil is used as a lubricant, the pad just glides across the surface depositing a tiny layer of polish each time. Once the polishing process is complete the tiny traces of oil that are left on the surface are "spirited off" using a soft cloth with a hint of metho on it.

It's a knack that is easy to learn but fairly time consuming. However the finished result is a truly beautiful, warm reddish-orange surface that is easily maintained with wax, can be repaired in the same way it was applied and can self-heal in certain circumstances (water and heat marks can disappear over a few days). The only true killer is spilt vodka! Or rum, whisky, gin, brandy.........

[Horsecroft88]

Ok thanks for that, I think I understand what you are both saying. I must admit, it wasn't how I was taught some 20 years ago, and fundamentally I havn't ever had any issues re drag, in applying shellac re my polishing process as a rule, but I am also aware of the need to stop and wait for the surface to dry if there is drag, so as not to stuff up the finish coat being applied.

Just to be really clear, so what you are saying is that using the process of a pad charged with shellac/metho mix (as I use) is fine, but to also add a drop or two of oil to the pad will improve the end result in terms of shine/lustre achieved. I am happy to give this a go, as I have just started on re polishing a table top (magonany drop leaf side table) for the other half, having already completed the leg repairs and repolishing of them. My thread on this is under the Restoration area on the forum.

Would I also be correct in my understanding, what you are also saying is that the final stage before cutting back with super fine steel wool and bees wax polishing is to carefully wipe the "shellaced" surface to remove any reisdual traces of oil with the merest suggestion of metho on a cloth ? If so, I can see the logic in that.

I will give this process a go to see how different a result I can achieve from what I normally can. Thanks guys :2tsup:, oh and I assume extra virgin olive oil should be fine to use.

[Woodwould]

After the bodying-up stage, just add a couple of drops of oil to the rubber and let rip!

You can build virtually as much as you like without fear of pulling the surface. Before you walk away from the surface being polished, wipe the rubber on your apron or trouser leg to squeeze out the oil on its surface. Then squirt a goodly amount of meths onto the rubber and cary on as before. Wipe the rubber off again and give the surface another go with a meths-only rubber. That's it.

[Horsecroft88]

Thanks for the headsup WW. BTW what do you mean by a rubber ?? I am not sure I am entirely clear on that. Do you mean the pad (that is, a core with lint free cloth wrapped around it) that one uses to apply the shellac with do you ? If not, where do you get such a rubber from ? Sorry re asking such dumb questions.

[Woodwould]

... what do you mean by a rubber ?? I am not sure I am entirely clear on that. Do you mean the pad (that is, a core with lint free cloth wrapped around it) that one uses to apply the shellac with do you ?

That's it. Some people call it a 'fad' or a 'tampon', but that's alltogether too yucky!

[Lawry01]

That's it. Some people call it a 'fad' or a 'tampon', but that's alltogether too yucky!
Yes, well!!! OK..so, another technique for us to have a try at!! I think I'll wait to see how you fare HC!

BTW WW, do you have any special ways of making your pads....secret folding rituals, shapes etc.? When doing the desk, I simply used heaps of shreded cotton cloth then bound them tightly in a square piece of cloth...worked OK, but as yo knowk I had better results from a brush. Lawry

[Horsecroft88]

Ah excellent, thanks for that again WW. Good to see that is not some special piece of equipment for polishing that I wasn't aware existed or needed to be used. Hmn yes I too think I will stick with the term pad. Not so keen on use of the other choice for this sort of work.

For sure Lawry I know what you mean. I am not sure I was even aware previously of such a technique re adding oil and had wondered on occasions how "master French Polishers" could achieve such a high level of finess in the gloss/lustre in the finish. I mean I can get a pretty good result but for really high quality furniture, such a finish is yet another level above what I have ever achieved. At least now I know how, next to try to achieve this.

Regarding the pad, well from all I have read and seen (in books/videos) you basically need a firm pad (core) which fits well into the palm of your hand, possibly slightly larger than the palm area. It should be roundish/flat in shape and then the binding material you use over it needs to be stretched firm and held in contact with your palm, if that makes sense. The polishing surface itself of the pad needs to be wrinkle/crease free, so that you don't cause marks when polishing.

The technique mostly used by the pros is a figure of 8, to apply the shellac coatings. Having said that, while for something like a table top or similar flat surface, I too use that technique the other thing i try to do is to follow the grain of the wood. Basically what I am always trying to avoid doing is build up an uneven surface or markings cross grain, since when it comes to the final part, cutting back and waxing, you don't want any such issues to have deal with, as that means harder cutting back and potentially cutting too much through the shellac coating over the item polished.

As for use of brushes, well yes I too use them, especially for tricky areas, mouldings etc, be it on furniture or joinery. I have even in the past used them on flat surfaces, however, once I have built up a base layer, I tend mostly to go over to the pad technique, even on areas such as table/chair legs etc. Hope that helps a little.

[Woodwould]

Regarding the pad, well from all I have read and seen (in books/videos) you basically need a firm pad (core) which fits well into the palm of your hand, possibly slightly larger than the palm area. It should be roundish/flat in shape and then the binding material you use over it needs to be stretched firm and held in contact with your palm, if that makes sense. The polishing surface itself of the pad needs to be wrinkle/crease free, so that you don't cause marks when polishing.
I use cotton wadding for the reservoir and fine cotton lawn for the outer wrapping and aim for something the size and shape of a large mouse/small rat.


The technique mostly used by the pros is a figure of 8, to apply the shellac coatings. Having said that, while for something like a table top or similar flat surface, I too use that technique the other thing i try to do is to follow the grain of the wood. Basically what I am always trying to avoid doing is build up an uneven surface or markings cross grain, since when it comes to the final part, cutting back and waxing, you don't want any such issues to have deal with, as that means harder cutting back and potentially cutting too much through the shellac coating over the item polished.
That's where the oil and spiriting off comes in. If you're leaving tracks when padding, you've either got too much polish in the rubber or you're putting too much pressure on it. Spiriting-off will remove any tracks.


As for use of brushes, well yes I too use them, especially for tricky areas, mouldings etc, be it on furniture or joinery. I have even in the past used them on flat surfaces, however, once I have built up a base layer, I tend mostly to go over to the pad technique, even on areas such as table/chair legs etc. Hope that helps a little.
I haven't French polished anything for over twenty five years; I detest the look of it. Georgian furniture wasn't French polished, so I have no need of the process. With the reproduction stuff I make now, I brush everything (oil/spirit varnish) and pad very little.

[Horsecroft88]

Thanks for all the clarifications WW. I am a little puzzled though regarding your comments concerning French polishing, especially in context to Georgian furniture. By French polishing I assume you mean 'true French polishing' as opposed to padding, such as I have been doing for so many years using shellac. My point being that if you are suggesting that shellac finishes were not used on georgian furniture or joinery, from my experience I would have to disagree. I have furniture dating back to the 1820-1830s which are totally original and have a shellac finish. Conversely if you mean the ultra high gloss of high end furnature than I understand where you are coming from. I am interested in trying the oil finish approach with shellac, if only for the experience of learning from. As I only work as a rule with old timbers and antiques I am happy to continue with the approaches I use.

[Woodwould]

Thanks for all the clarifications WW. I am a little puzzled though regarding your comments concerning French polishing, especially in context to Georgian furniture. By French polishing I assume you mean 'true French polishing' as opposed to padding, such as I have been doing for so many years using shellac. My point being that if you are suggesting that shellac finishes were not used on georgian furniture or joinery, from my experience I would have to disagree. I have furniture dating back to the 1820-1830s which are totally original and have a shellac finish. Conversely if you mean the ultra high gloss of high end furnature than I understand where you are coming from. I am interested in trying the oil finish approach with shellac, if only for the experience of learning from. As I only work as a rule with old timbers and antiques I am happy to continue with the approaches I use.

By "Georgian" I mean Georges I, II and III. Although the prince Regent became George IV following the death of his father in 1820, his ten year rule isn't generally considered 'Georgian'. For years, the BADA drew a line at 1820 (ignoring the 100 year antique rule) and refused post 1820 antiques entry into the top English fairs (I believe it should still be so).

But yes, French polishing didn't appear until around 1825 and padding is merely a spin-off of French polishing. The Georgians finished their furniture with wax or they brushed-on oil/spirit varnishes or on ocassions, used nothing at all. A good many Georgian antiques were subsequently padded with shellac (some were even French polished!) in the nineteenth- and twentieth-centuries through ignorance or for commercial gain.

[Horsecroft88]

Thankyou WW for both the detailed reasoning behind all of this. Also the quick history lesson :). Having also done a little more reading on this I agree with your reasoning. I noted what you said re George 1V's short period. I also noted how he came to the throne due to his father's mental illness, under a Regency. He was an apparently extravagant man. Two questions could this also explain the use of the term Regency design for architecture and especially some of very distinct design cues. Our 1826 property is noted as being regency in design, and the mantle pieces seem to be true to such designs. Also was there a difference between the UK and Aus in the use of the term Georgan design. One other question for true Georgan furniture what exactly is the correct finish. By that I mean varnishes, oils, waxes. Do you know the nature of such products and are they available today. Am assuming likely to be so. Sorry re more questions but I am keen to learn. Thanks

[Woodwould]

I haven't encountered "Aus Georgian". I spent a couple of weeks in Tasmania some years ago and noted some splendid Georgian Architecture dating to the earliest years of settlement of the colony. As for furniture, any Georgian stuff I've seen here was imported from the mother country.

Wax and linseed oil were the earliest finishes and following trade with the East, shellac and other, vegetable resins began to gain a foot hold. These resins were variously dissolved in spirits or turpentine (and sometimes combined) to produce varnishes which were laid on with brushes before being burnished.

I know only a few people who can reliably differentiate between the various finishes and who are capable of restoring them sympathetically and, more importantly, correctly. If you come across quality Georgian furniture and aren't 100% certain what the finish is and how to proceed, please leave it alone or defer to an expert. While it might be great fun 'having a go', the chances of irreversibly damaging the piece are very real with subsequent loss in value.

[Antipodes]

To stop the rubber sticking I use a couple of drops of paraffin oil. Works a treat.