Blackbutt Deck, Oil or Stain

[burn1]

Hi, I'm sure this advise has been sort many times before. I live in Sydney and have an uncovered 70sq deck in Blackbutt. 5yrs ago when new I covered in 3 coats of Sikkens Cetol HLS after leaving new wood for 3mths then rough sanding. Didn't last that well so I thought stupidly I could leave deck and let go grey, being hardwood would last 20yrs. I'm wiser now. A bit. I've just spent a week belt sanding back to bare with 40 grade. Replaced a few rottting bits but now ready to cover. Guy in shop says Sikkens was the way to go, but some friends say oil because its not going to crack and chip etc like a stain. I'm now confused. As you can probably tell, maintenance is not my forte. I'm not after a master piece. I deck is for bbq's and drinking and eating food on. Just want longevity without being a slave to it. Any advise from experienced people would be much appreciated
P.S. My railings are treated pine??


Posted in another section but no response

[burn1]

Trolling through the forums and internet for days now.
1) Dubious of Stains now.
2)Water Based oils. Its a LIE to start with. Can they be trusted when the label sells a lie. Either its oil or its something water based. Or am I mistaken?
3) What about Intergrain "Nature's Timber Oil™". Except Intergrain website says clean-up in Hot soapy water or mineral turpentine. So is it oil if you can clean up in soapy water? My best pick so far with no one advising me. Love to hear some of your opinions.
4) If I use oil, will the wood turn grey underneath, and what does UV protection mean anyway. Is my deck going to get cancer?

[Fuzzie]

Hi, There's a lot of information available over in the renovate forums. You might have more luck with help if you try over there...
Cleaning and Oiling your Deck (http://www.renovateforum.com/f196/cleaning-oiling-your-deck-75429/)

[strangerep]

Trolling through the forums and internet for days now.
1) Dubious of Stains now.
2)Water Based oils. Its a LIE to start with. Can they be trusted when the label sells a lie. Either its oil or its something water based. Or am I mistaken?
Steer clear, imho. (BTW, all "exterior" products come with half-truths and deceptions, so I've found.)



3) What about Intergrain "Nature's Timber Oil™". Except Intergrain website says clean-up in Hot soapy water or mineral turpentine. So is it oil if you can clean up in soapy water?
Most of the decking oils that you can easily find in hardware stores won't last very long. You'll start to be disappointed within a few months. The best of the acryllics is "Spa-n-Deck", which tends to last longer than oils BUT they are much harder to maintain, since you must sand and recoat. In this sense oils are better -- easier to maintain.

The best deck oil I currently know of is Cutek CD50:
Cutek CD50^® CD50 Index (http://www.chemisys.com.au/cutek/features.htm)

It penetrates deeper, and lasts longer. But you'll still to recoat every 12 months. It needs 1-2 weeks (at least) between 1st and 2nd coat so that the first can sink in properly. You might need a 3rd coat about a month later.

Cutek is not cheap, and can be a bit difficult to get hold of in Sydney. (I got it from Bristol, Auburn.) You buy a quantity of clear, and also a small tin of tint and mix it yourself. Colours available on the Cutek website.




4) If I use oil, will the wood turn grey underneath, and what does UV protection mean anyway. Is my deck going to get cancer?If you use Cutek clear, it will protect the timber but still go grey. To preserve colour, use one of the tints.

And, as Fuzzie mentioned, you can probably get more info (some of it conflicting) over in the Renovate Forums, i.e., the decking forum:

DECKING (http://www.renovateforum.com/f196/)

I have been through the process of using Feast Watson (old formula), which doesn't last very long even though it's supposed to be a good product. I've also used Spa-n-Deck, but became very frustrated when maintenance time rolled around. Worse, it's really hard to change from Spa-n-Deck to Cutek unless the former is sanded off totally -- else the Cutek seems to react with the remnants of Spa-n-Deck, producing an ugly black colour.

Although Cutek is more expensive and harder to get, I'm pretty sure I'll be using it from now on...

[AngelaPetruzzi]

One thing to think about before deciding on the coating is the weather. Would suggest you wait till it is drier. Leave it as it is now and then just give it a light sand when the weather is dry and importantly the timber is dry.
Any oil that is washable in water is not a true oil. Any varnish coatings that seal on top, will most likely require sanding back. The softeners in the coating deteriorate with the sun, the coating splits, and water gets under the cover.
Whilst oils require regular maintenance, this is usually easily done by reapplying another coat, no sanding back required. You know what happens when you sand one too many times....
Now you need to consider what oil and most have a synthetic component in them. Don’t think the pictures that one see with the penetrating powers of Cutek is really penetrating to nearly half the thickness of the boards.......and there is no natural oil that is clear as it breaks down too quickly with the UV rays and weathering.
You need to decide what is your priority, maybe give up your notion of longevity for ease of maintenance.
Oh....and the timber turning black...watch out for mould.

[burn1]

Thanks for the replies. There is a Bristol in Mona Vale. Will visit and look into Cutek CD50. Website say "Equipment may be cleaned with detergent and water, or mineral turpentine." Cutek does not mention what the product actually is. Stain,Oil??
Cabots Aqua Deck. "Cabot's Aquadeck is a highly durable, low odour decking oil" Also water based.
And yes Angella, Decking in winter. But summer was so wet. I stripped in a week of sun. I cover in plastic when it rains, uncover to continue to dry when its sunny. Didn't think the deck could handle another damp winter.
I keep thinking a deck oil should be oil based. Is there a decking Oil that is made form oil? Is this old fashioned thinking?

[Grandad-5]

I keep thinking a deck oil should be oil based. Is there a decking Oil that is made form oil? Is this old fashioned thinking?

Well, I'm old fashioned so I'll throw this out there with the proviso that you wait for someone with more up to date knowledge to comment on my suggestion.

Back in my day.....one of those statements I once swore I would never use:D.....there was nowhere near the vast choice of products to choose from for coating a deck. You basically has a choice of Sikkens, something called DWD (Doors Windows & Decks) which were both finishes that sat on top of the timber or Sceneys All Purpose Weatherproof Oil.
That was my choice. Didn't last very long....12 months if you were lucky but re-coating was a breeze. And, it was cheap. It dried so fast one could decide to invite people over for a Bar-B-Que, re-coat your deck before lunch and it would be good to go that same evening.

I spotted it at a local hardware store very recently so its still available, but it may well have now been surpassed by one of the newer products that surpasses it in durabilty.
Thus my request to see if that has in fact happened.
I do know it works though. I've seen it on merbou and cypress decks regularly re-coated and many years, and therefore coats....later it still looked a million bucks.

Cheers
Jim

[burn1]

Thanks Jim, I understand what you mean about not wanting me to take it as up to date advise. I looked up Sceneys All Purpose Weatherproof Oil. Still make it but also make a deck specific oil called "Timber and Decking Oil". Looked at the Data sheet and its Raw Linseed oil, solvents,Alkyd resin and dryers. Sounds like oil.
I will look into this product, Cudek cd50 and my son friends Dad has just recoated his deck with Cabot's Aquadeck, that he says he has been happy with.
I quick clean and an oil/oil type once a year sounds much easier than a barrier type product that if it is breached, you have to strip.

[strangerep]

Thanks for the replies. There is a Bristol in Mona Vale. Will visit and look into Cutek CD50.
Sounds like you're in the same area of Sydney as me. I have a tiny amount of Cutek left over if you want to come take a look. (PM me if so.)

Bristol, Mona Vale still didn't stock Cutek last time I checked which was quite recently. I really hated the trip over to Auburn, but the main Cutek supplier in Melbourne said they're the closest to me, though this was over 6 months ago. Bristol Mona Vale actually gave me wrong information about it at that time. There's no point asking a supplier about a product they don't stock...

You should probably talk to Cutek Melbourne direct and see if there's a closer distributor to you now.


Website say "Equipment may be cleaned with detergent and water, or mineral turpentine." The composition of Cutek is complex. You can download an MSDS from somewhere on their website that gives you an idea of what's in it. Naptha seems to be one of the ingredients, but there's various other stuff as well. When I used it, it "felt" different from the (old) FW oil I'd used before. Hard to describe.

But you definitely need turps cleanup. I normally buy a cheap pad from Bunnies and treat it as a single-use item. For cleaning brushes that may be needed at the edges, turps was ok, though Bunnies also sell some ultra-cheap throwaway brushes.


Cutek does not mention what the product actually is. Stain,Oil??It's some kind of deep-penetrating oil. It's kinda weird watching it for the first week after application to see it slowly sinking in.

And like I said, the base product is clear. You add tint if you want a colour (which is essential if you don't want the timber to go grey).



Cabots Aqua Deck. "Cabot's Aquadeck is a highly durable, low odour decking oil" Also water based.I haven't used it, but it tends to attract bad comments over on the decking forum.


I cover in plastic when it rains, uncover to continue to dry when its sunny. Didn't think the deck could handle another damp winter.A reasonable amount of rinsing will actually help to leach out various tannins. A certain amount of such weathering, followed by a bejeezus cleaning with Napisan followed by Oxalic (and then a torrential rinsing) actually helps the longer term appearance. All the original water-soluble gunk in the timber needs to get out eventually.

I recently Cutek'ed my deck by seizing the sunny days in Winter, so it can certainly be done. (I think it might need a 3rd coat though, since rainwater stopped beading on it after about a month.)

[strangerep]

Don’t think the pictures that one see with the penetrating powers of Cutek is really penetrating to nearly half the thickness of the boards.......

But have you actually done the experiment? I.e., apply Cutek to a piece of decking offcut as per manufacturer's instructions with 1+ weeks between coats, then wait another couple of weeks, then cut it through to determine the depth of penetration? I haven't done this, but... maybe I will now. I vaguely recall a thread over the decking forum where someone had done this and the penetration depth looked reasonable.

[Grandad-5]

I looked up Sceneys All Purpose Weatherproof Oil. Still make it but also make a deck specific oil called "Timber and Decking Oil". Looked at the Data sheet and its Raw Linseed oil, solvents,Alkyd resin and dryers. Sounds like oil.

That sounds like the original, if my memory serves me correctly.:roll: (That's a joke Joyce)
Basically, linseed oil, a hardener which would be the Alkyd resin I would imagine. A thinner like turps to let in penetrate further and an anti-fungicide.

[AngelaPetruzzi]

Have I done the experiment, no, just know someone who worked at the company.

[burn1]

I was at Mitre 10 today and FW who were only making the new water based oil have just re released the original "turps wash up Original Formula Classic Finish" in there traditional Decking oil. Make your own mind up on what that means.
Can't find bad things said about Cutek cd50.

[wizalll]

I was at Mitre 10 today and FW who were only making the new water based oil have just re released the original "turps wash up Original Formula Classic Finish" in there traditional Decking oil. Make your own mind up on what that means.
Can't find bad things said about Cutek cd50.

Hi there, my hubby and I have just built a new deck made of blackbutt and we love the colour of the timber and are receiving a lot of mixed messages re oil/stain etc We have been recommended Cutek CD50 as well as Sikkens Hlse. Just wondering how your deck turned out and what product you used in the end? We are thinking an oil or something clear w no colour but not sure about maintenance. It isn't a big deck so ok w oiling every 12- 18 months if need be. Any advice is appreciated. Thank you

[Pete57]

What about Livos? Noticed they have a deck oil. Have not used any of their products but a lot of people rave about their finishes.

[strangerep]

Hi there, my hubby and I have just built a new deck made of blackbutt Welcome to the deck slaves club. :no:

I am no longer a member of that club, having sold my house ~2 yrs ago. But I will never again buy a place that has an exterior timber deck.


and we love the colour of the timber and are receiving a lot of mixed messages re oil/stain etc Presumably you've already looked through the previous posts in this thread (and I hope you've also read lots of other posts in this forum)? Lots of info here (sadly, needs to be repeated over and over again).

Blackbutt (especially) will go dirty and ugly over time, regardless of finish. Actually, all timber species do this as tannin leaches out and mould grows.


We have been recommended Cutek CD50 as well as Sikkens Hlse. I have used both. The Sikkens product started to degrade (in a visually obvious way) after about 3 months, and by 6 months it looked quite crook. So I used Cutek on my deck over quite a few years. Each coat would last 12 months and still look reasonable.


We are thinking an oil or something clear w no colour but not sure about maintenance. Don't use clear unless you're happy for UV rays to grey your timber rapidly. The Cutek website talks about this.


It isn't a big deck so ok w oiling every 12- 18 months if need be. It's not just the oiling. You've also got to clean it thoroughly. See older threads which talk about Napisan treatments, oxalic acid, etc.

For new decks, I'm an advocate of letting it weather for some time, while also hosing it off liberally until no more tannin leaches out. Try this experiment: Pour a small cup of water on the deck somewhere not too obvious. Let it dry, and you'll probably see tanning stains left behind where the water has leached it out of the timber. It's desirable to keep hosing the deck until this behaviour stops, or becomes minimal.

BTW, I hope you used 30mm decking, not the thinner 19mm stuff. When I was selling my house, I got professionals in to sand it back to bare timber. Their big sanders remove a LOT of material -- I doubt this could be done more than twice on 19mm boards without seriously compromising the strength of the deck.

[DomAU]

Sadly, I am also a member of the deck slaves club :(. Mine is also in a full-sun location with just occasional cover from a retractable awning. 80 square meters of ongoing maintenance; it's a love-hate relationship. Just about to re-oil it again tonight actually.

I use Cutek Extreme on mine, with a few different pigments mixed together to get a colour that we liked. I haven't tried other brands of oil on the blackbutt deck. I use Cabots on the front Merbau deck because that's what we started with - I'm not a huge fan of the colour but it seems to last a long time and is much thicker than the cutek. It's a much thicker oil than the cutek. I also think Merbau is just a lot more durable in terms of colour retention than the Blackbutt.

Oh, your blackbutt deck will darken/turn more amber with UV, before then going grey. So if you add pigments to the oil, realise that it will get darker with age; particularly the first 6-12 months.

Cheers,

Dom

[DomAU]

Couple of small things to add;

Having just re-coated my 80 square meters of blackbutt, it took nearly a full 10lt tin of Cutek Extreme; that's over $300- per re-coat which i do at least every 12 months and was doing every 6 months the first 18 months - hadn't ever thought about it, but that's a lot of ongoing expense.

Also, I had to sand-back my front deck today as it was looking a bit rough. I realised that the Cabbots oil is basically more like paint, with the areas of the deck that still looked like wood-colored/ok first going grey upon sanding off the top layer (showing that the wood was actually grey, and it was just the cabbots oil / colour on top that made it look wood coloured). This is different to the cutek product which does not form any film on top of the deck and instead soaks into the wood. The Cabbots keeps forming a thicker and thicker film on top of the wood which later flakes off / ends up like a coat of paint.

Cheers,

Dom