G'day folks...help with old english oak desk please.

[Lawry01]

Hi folks. Just found this forum, and hope to get active here. New to woodworking but want to develop some reasonable skills in bringing old/ antique furniture back to its former glory! Wrapped to read about the show in a couple of weeks too!

However, my immediate issue is this.... I just purchased a beautifully carved old English Oak (we think) desk with leather inlay. (will try to post picture soon) The chap I bough it from recently attampted to varnish it, and frankly did an absolutely terrible job. Its very rough, still sticky and thick in parts (week later) and not the right colour (red jarrah, whilst the timber is a darker english Oak) Also, he did some sanding against the grain , leaving deep scratch marks . The leather inlay is in poor condition (the desk has 3 inlay sections..and the poor sanding is in the narrow strip between them..difficult area to sand, so he took the easy way out.. The desk is actually a beauitiful piece of furniture with wonderful carvings, but now looks like some cheap Indonesian mass produced and poorly finished item. I would appreciate ideas on how to return this piece to its former glory. My skills are 'basic' but open to leaning.We dont know its age, but minimum early 1900's, possibly late 1800's. It was brought to Australia from the UK by its rather eldely previous owner. Thanks for ideas in advance ! Lawry :2tsup:

[Woodwould]

If the varnish is still soft, I would remove it ASAP with 00 steel wool, mineral turps and piles of clean rags.

If you post pictures of it after that, one of us should be able to give further advice.

[Lawry01]

I wouldnt call it soft, but you can certainly still smell it...I assume its probably safe to consider it as soft! The guy I bought it from said he varinished it with Feast Watson about a week ago, and after 2/3 days was still tacky. Will have a go at the steel wool ..should I be rubbing hard, or just let the natural abrasion do its stuff?

[Lawry01]

Oh..further question....the intricate carvings..obviously I cant actually rub with the grain, so do I just work my way in and around the contours etc? Thanks.

Lawry

[Woodwould]

Scrub as hard as necessary, but stop short of removing colour or wood fibres! Try a stiff nail brush on the carved areas.

[Lawry01]

thanks...will get started this morning, and report back! I must admit, its such a beautiful piece, that I'm a little apprehensive, although I know once I get started it will be fine! . Lawry

[Christos]

Welcome to the forum.

If only the other fellow joined the forum before.... At least you have a project to complete. :rolleyes:

[Lawry01]

Folks..progres report...have used 00 steel wool and metho and removed most of the varnish, now going to tacvkle the tricky carvings. I notice that on many surfaces after scrubbing and wiping, I'm left with a lot of whiteish residue, not sure what this is..have I not gone deep enough, or is this a different varning/ stain / surface? Once I work out how, I'll post the pics I've taken...work on that today!

Looking forward to hearing views on next steps!
Lawry
ps. it is starting to look good to refinish, but theagainst the grain scratch marks are quite evident!

[Christos]

This could help in posting pictures.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f36/posting-pictures-your-post-78760/

[Lawry01]

OK..photos attempt no.1! A few photos of the desk before stripping. Note, whilst it might look good , it was actuallyt quite revolting in real life , specially top, front carvings and sides. The back looked great!!! You'll see in one of the shots where he sanded deeply against the grain in between the leather inlay. I'll post 'stage 1' after shots once this goes through.

[Lawry01]

Thanks christos..photos worked. Attached are some shots of where I'm up to now after using the steel wool & metho. Still dont know what the white stuff is - tried to wipe it off with metho, but it keeps showing up. Please tell me what you guys reckon, and what next! Cheers, Lawry:)

[Woodwould]

The white residue is the remaining varnish. Work it into a slurry again and keep wiping it off with clean cloths. Until you gain more experience, letting it dry from time to time will better indicate those areas that require further cleaning.

After a while, the gunge will cease to appear and the next stage can proceed.

[dr4g0nfly]

Well I have not got much grain to go on but the little I can make out around the stripped door says it's certainly oak.

The carving on the door is also of a stylised Tudor rose but not right enough to be of that era. Also the delecatness of the legs and stretchers don't quite fit with the carved acorns. I think therefore it's a reproduction although certainly of some age (the Victorians were great at reproducing earlier furnature.)

It would be hard to recommend a stain to match, due to modern stains not being made the same but you might try starting with Jacobean Oak thinned slightly (on a spare bit of oak or in a hidden area).

[Horsecroft88]

Ok, I am going to appear to be a little severe here, and would suggest that if you aren't able to get all the whitish residue off as you have been trying to do so, than perhaps you may have a number of other options.

Metho and coarse grade steel wool is fine for removing old shellac finishes (albeit it is slow) but normally to remove something with a poly base (which most Feast Watson products have), I would use paint stripper, for that will remove all the muck and residue clear off to get back to bare timber. You then can use products like oxalic acid or as I do metho, or even warm soapy water and steel wool to clean any residual nasties left behind.

Once you have the surface totally cleaned back to the timber, if it is english oak, and unless you want a really dark surface, I personally wouldn't recommend using a stain with any finish you wish to use.

A piece like this should merely be sanded (following the grain using coarse (120) if needed or at least a medium grade paper (240) to very fine (400) and thereafter re-finished with shellac, ultra fine steel wool (0000 grade) and bees wax polished. Basically, the piece needs to be French Polished, to bring out the colour and nature of the oak grain. If you are concerned re the risk of damage to a normal shellac finish due to heat or spillage of liquids you could always use hard shellac, which is available from Ubeaut here off this forum.

I personally am not afraid of using the methods described above be it for antique cedar, pine or oak joinery or furniture and the results always come up superb.

[Lawry01]

Thanks Dragonfly. The carving on the door is actually the same as that on the legs..I'll try to post better pic later. It may well be a repro., but it would be great to somehow actually date the piece..I dont know how/ where to do this.
Re the stain..where do I get something like Jacobean Oak stain? Its not in the usual Bunnings range!!! (you can tell I'm new to this!)

Horsecroft...thanks for your views too...I'm considering your suggestion of sanding back to bare timber/ using stripper to get everything off etc. I actually wonder whether I'll get a better job by removing everything, and possibly sanding back to get rid of the severe scratch marks in between the leather.
I'm not overly fussed about a very dark finish...a little colour would be nice, but the oak/ grain looks good as I work it. What stripper would you suggest, and whats the best way to use it please?
So now..between Wouldwood and Horsecrofts approaches, I am a little confused on the best way to proceed. HELP! I must say, getting ALL the varnish off has been dificult, specially around the carvings, although I am still working oj it. Cheers, and thanks again for yur ideas/ advice in advance! lawry

[Woodwould]

Sanding certainly attains fast results and on weighing up your options, you may decide the already scratched desk won't suffer tremendously from that approach.

I am totally against the use of sandpaper as part of any refinishing process. It's unnecessary and can totally destroy a piece of furniture (as has virtually been the case with your desk at the hands of the previous owner).

Unfortunately sanding is prevalent in some elements of the 'antiques' trade (I'm not aiming at Horsecroft88). But then one could argue that the desk was already compromised by the application of the varnish.

Ultimately the desk should be cleaned off by what ever method and time frame you are comfortable with. Once that's done, then you can evaluate the desk and decide on how to go about finishing it again. A dark-ish stain will amplify the existing scratches, but a very dark stain (like Jacobean oak) will likely obliterate the scratches… and everything else besides!

My inclination would be to preserve the lightest colour possible i.e. without stain and simply brush on a few coats of shellac, rub it out and apply some wax. It's the simplest procedure for a rank amateur to grasp and should give impressive results.

[Lawry01]

Yes..understood! Seems like youre suggesting my best approach now may be to use some stripper to get the surface right, rethink the idea of sanding, and as you say, then decide if I want any, or light or darker stain , then shellac. Is this what youre thinking? I'm thinking that stripper will at least give me a good base to work from, although I guess I lose any of the old natural patina in the desk (the grain is quite nice though!) Would I use paint stripper neat, or a thinned out version on rags etc.?

lawry
ps I'm keen to get to the showgrounds for the woodworking event later this month!

[Woodwould]

Yes..understood! Seems like youre suggesting my best approach now may be to use some stripper to get the surface right, rethink the idea of sanding, and as you say, then decide if I want any, or light or darker stain , then shellac. Is this what youre thinking? I'm thinking that stripper will at least give me a good base to work from, although I guess I lose any of the old natural patina in the desk (the grain is quite nice though!) Would I use paint stripper neat, or a thinned out version on rags etc.?

lawry
ps I'm keen to get to the showgrounds for the woodworking event later this month!
Stripper will likely remove the gunge (at considerable cost), but so will perseverance with meths and steel wool. Even if you do use stripper, there'll be a lot of cleaning up to be done with meths and steel wool at any rate. Even when you think you're done, there will be some gunge remaining. Hence my previous suggestion of letting it sit periodically to highlight any obstinate areas. Final wiping down with copious amounts of meths and clean rags should remove all traces of grey scum.

As said, I would advocate a simple shellac finish followed by wax.

[Lawry01]

Hmmmm....yes. So, it seems like I should just continue with what I've been doing then! Forget stripper, build up my arm muscles , and rub away with the steel wool! Suggestions for the carved areas? I've tried nail brush, but that doesnt seem to be doing much.

[Woodwould]

OK, given that the desk was subjected to varnish, I will concede to the use of stripper on the carvings. :U But still finish the carvings off with meths, a toothbrush and steel wool.

[Lawry01]

Thank you oh gracious tutor!!!! Your reply did make me laugh! I've just been having another go at the doors, and yes, maybe a little paint stripper will help..and yes, I will finish off as you suggest! Back to the grindstone..or bunnings first...

[Horsecroft88]

Hi all, in the first instance, how you approach something be it an antique or antique joinery in truth should make no difference. The whole point about such wonderful timbers/pieces is their very patina. Their history. I equally am totally against ever destroying this.

The reasons I gave for the method outlined is that it had been varnished, that is a polyeurathane based product had been used and metho won't actually work against a mineral based product like that. Whereas in fact Turps might.

On the other hand you also have to balance out the need to conserve the patina (bumps, scratches, even burn marks or discolouration on a piece, but obviously not bad sanding scratches. That in my view is not really a part of the patina, but rather poorly executed restoration work.

I have been doing this sort of thing, restoring two old heritage properties (one 1850 and my home) the other our 1826 heritage listed country property which will become our home when ready. I also love and have restored many pieces of antique furniture from Colonial to early 1900s. So I do have just a modicum of experience, though I am not for a moment suggesting I am an expert.

My real point though re the use of paint stripper is that it speeds up the process of removal of old finishes one needs to get rid of and that can be most helpful. Ditto, sanding, can and in many cases is actually needed. Again, the key is working with the timbers grain not against it. There isn't a need to be afaid of the use of sanding, for if judicious in its use you won't destroy the patina.

There are always going to be pieces which should have nothing done to them beyond a simple clean and re-waxing. That also is perfectly fine and I have pieces of Colonial Cedar furniture where I have done no more than this.

Let me show some pictures of the sort of work I have done, using the methods described. I doubt if anyone could fault it.

The first lot are of a Tasmanian oak with cedar inset mantle at our country property. In the first instance I used a heat gun to remove the paint, then paint stripped, cleaned, sanded and shellac finished/bees wax polished.

I will show some other pics in another post, as something went wrong the first time I tried to do this. I use fine blade screw drivers or any other suitable implement to tease paint out of the intricate areas in all instances, such as on this piece. To answer the questions re paint stripper, I never dilute it, and as to where to get it, Mitre 10, Bunnings or any decent paint shop should stock this.

[Horsecroft88]

Pictures of the mantle and door and other woodwork restored in the kitchen of our country place. The kauri pine duchess was stripped when bought, some 20 + years ago, and was sanded very badly. With careful sanding, shellac, with just a hint of pine tinters, and fine steel wool and bees wax polish this was the final result.

I hope that provides a level of re-assurance as to what can be achieved. It is not hard to do, it is not rocket science, simply all that is required is a level of careful judgement, patience, and some hard work. Shellac finishes are straight forward to use. I was taught by a TAFE teacher some 20 years ago at a wood work show, in about 10 minutes. The rest is simply experience gained over the years and confidence in what I know works.

[Lawry01]

Folks..firstly, I really want to thank Horsecroft & Wouldwood for the time and effort youre both taking to help me out!! I have already learned a few things from you both. However, I certainly don't want to see a Ford v's Holden type battle occurring here (I am jesting a little here!!) The advice from you both I think leads me to attempt an amalgam of your ideas. I dont say this to keep the peace,, but rather, because I actually think its appropriate! I've bought some stripper now, and will test this out on an incospicuos spot inside the cupboard areas. Then I'll determone whether the sections already worked on with mths/ s/wool need much more..etc. I will keep you up to date with progress!

Shame you both aren't here in sunny Brisbane!!

[Horsecroft88]

The last set of photos show a pair of windows which were installed by my builder in the kitchen which needed to be stripped and the surrounding reveals/lintle, also a photo of the cedar and huon pine joinery in the master bedroom.

The next lot of photos show a mahogany chest I gave a light restoration to, metho strip/steel wool to remove the old shellac finish, light sanding and then re-shellacing/waxing.

The last photo is of my 1830s Cedar chest, which all I have done is give it a steel wool cleanup (0000 grade) and finish of bees wax.

I think the above sets of photos and my comments show what can be readily achieved. Well I hope so. All the best with the desk, for I think you are on the right path with this and it should respond to the love you are giving it. It is a very nice piece of furniture.

[Lawry01]

Beautiful work.....i love the grain and the patina.
Have just sampled stripper on theinside and one of the legs...actually pretty pleased with the result, still leaves a little bit of colour, rather than bare wood. I'm leaving it on for around 10 minutes or so, is this right?

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Lawry and thanks, I too love the results of what I have achieved. I think that is the type of satisfaction any of us can feel, after all the hard work is done.

Excellent, it sounds as if you are on track. If you don't loose all the colour from the wood, so much the better and the end result should be richer in colour.

My other half has a english oak desk. Didn't pay much for it but the colour of the timber and grain really makes it very special. We were lucky for it was in original and sound condition and a coat of wax was all that was required.

I am sure your project too will be one to be proud of.

Re the timeframes for leaving paint stripper on, the key is generally for not too long before cleaning it off. 10 mins sounds like perhaps a little long to me, from my experience I probably would halve that to around 5 mins given what you are wanting to do. If I am finishing off something and there is just a slight amount I need to remove, I will simply paint it on and pretty much start using the steel wool to clean up with. However, it really will vary pretty much every time and just how much muck you need to clean off. With paint, I normally err on a bit longer than say with a varnish/poly finish.

As I previously noted, if using paint stripper, then please also make sure you clean the surface off with metho, or oxalic acid, since if not you might have problems down the track with the finish coats you want to use on the desk.

Depending on what finish you want to use on your desk, for instance if shellac, but there are other finishes that could be equally suitable, there is a simple and straight forward method to apply it, but there are a few techniques which are important to be aware of.

The key to remember is preparation of the surface to work on will help with the final finish/appearance. Also just how much gloss/lustre of finish you want. With Shellacs you can achieve a very soft almost dull finish (depending on various techniques) to high gloss. The other thing to remember if using shellac is don't do it in a cold workshop, as it can make the shellac coat go milky. Perhaps this wouldn't be a problem where you, but it sure can be down here in Tassie.

I would be most happy to discuss how to use shellac if you were interested. Obviously the more coats of whatever finish you apply the deeper the finish and better the protection you will have for it.

[Lawry01]

Thanks Horsecroft, and Woodwould!

Yes, I have now done a combo of both your approaches, and feel I'm almost at the end of this stage! Am stopping now, as my hands nd fingers are somewhat numb, and the feel of steel wool under my fingernails is a little painful!!! nevertheless..onwards & upowards...tomorrow I'll have a look at areas that need some final rubbing back, and then take a few pics for you both to look at. (please don;t judge my work too harshly sirs!!) I'm pretty pleased with the grain and colour remaining after this work. The top is obviously the area that might need some sanding, due to he poor work done previously....but I'm sure we'll chat about that soon! The front/ back & sides look great. Might need to do more around the carved areas though.

On a separate note, I must say that I have thoroughly enjoyed the experience so far..its really the first time I've tackled such a project, other than staining my Tassie Oak kitchen some time back in Melbourne!! Might be a convert here to restoring/ refinishing old furniture. It's alwayws been a sideline interest of mine. So, once again, thanks to you guys for your help, support, and encouragement! Lawry

[Horsecroft88]

Know the feeling all too well Lawry. Look forward to seeing more photos of your desk, when you can post them.

Happy to pass on any little knowledge/experience I can as I am sure others likewise are. Glad to see you gaining something from this, and enjoying the experience. The rewards can be really great in finishing what you are working on, both personal satisfaction and comments from others who will see what you have done.

All the best, Dave

[Lawry01]

OK FOlks...I reckon I've just about got it prepared for next step.....your views - please mark my work! Whats next?

Pics of most of the angles attached for you, including one of the worst part of the scratches..not sure whether to leave, or sand? Also, having gone this far, I wonder whether its worth looking at replacing the leather inlay..its really in poor unerepairable condition I think, but no idea how to do this. Again, many thanks for your help here!

Regards, Lawry

[Woodwould]

You've got a bit of work to do on it yet! There's still quite a bit of old polish/varnish still remaining and it will look appalling if you don't get rid of it all.

The leathers aren't perfect, but I would say they're serviceable.

[Horsecroft88]

Firstly Lawry I would say you have done a really good job on cleaning it up from its previous state. So well done and personally I would give you an 8 to 9 out of 10 with a gold elephant stamp :D. For your first such project, I am impressed. :2tsup:

I know what Woodwould says is so, for I can see the residuals but and perhaps from a different perspective, the other option could be to leave it as it is and not try to get that last part out. The reason I say this is that regardless of how much you take it back, as you polish it up (using the re-surfacing product of your choice), I wouldn't be surprised if you get some levels of variation in colour, simply because no two pieces of timber are the same, and/or with the passage of time, let alone previous finishes a proportion of such finishes will have soaked into the grain of the timber, which results in a level of discolouration.

For me, I actually like this, for like bumps, bruses and old scratches a level of variation in colour etc is a part of the patina of a piece. I also think it is not uncommon for a piece of furniture such as this desk with the scroll work, carvings etc that a level of darker colours would normally be found around such areas in contrast to the larger flatter surfaces.

Again if it were my piece and I were to be removing the leather, I would very much try to sand out the worst of poor sanding marks, carefully, (ie. try using 240 grade to see if it worked ok), but I realise you might be concerned about doing this, and certainly Woodwould is not a fan of this sort of work when restoring a piece.

Again perhaps one way to test this out, might be see if you could sand somewhere on it and re-coat using the finishing product of your choice to determine if you are happy with such an approach.

The one thing I would say is that grain has really come up well and when finished will be a key feature of your desk.

Re the leather, it is perhaps a little hard to offer advice on that. You might like to talk to a furniture repair place, or leather outlet to see if they can provide you with some advice on it. For if still basically serviceable, you might be able to re-juvinate it with a hide food, rather than going the extra effort (and possibly a level of difficulty in replacing it). On the other hand if it really is very poor condition, it would tend to detract from the restored wood work.

[Lawry01]

Ahh Woodwould..I reckon you were an apprentice master at some stage..you are a hard marker!!

I must say though, that other than odd bits around the carved areas, I'm not sure that I see much residual varnish? I wiped meth all over the piece and didnt really have any more white residue? at the risk of sounding like a whingeing apprentice , outside of the carved areas and perhaps the edges in between the inlay, where else do you see needing more rubbing?
Also, I'll put some close ups of the leather at a later stage (once I pass the prearation stage!) so you can see better.

Cheers, Lawry

[Woodwould]

Ahh Woodwould..I reckon you were an apprentice master at some stage..you are a hard marker!!

I must say though, that other than odd bits around the carved areas, I'm not sure that I see much residual varnish? I wiped meth all over the piece and didnt really have any more white residue? at the risk of sounding like a whingeing apprentice , outside of the carved areas and perhaps the edges in between the inlay, where else do you see needing more rubbing?
Also, I'll put some close ups of the leather at a later stage (once I pass the prearation stage!) so you can see better.

Cheers, Lawry
Between the leathers struck me as a particularly grotty area, but I can see other shadowy areas too. You have done an outstanding job thus far. Just don't be too complacent as the next stages might highlight any short cuts at this stage.

BTW, I did teach restoration at an English college for a while.

[Lawry01]

Between the leathers struck me as a particularly grotty area, but I can see other shadowy areas too. You have done an outstanding job thus far. Just don't be too complacent as the next stages might highlight any short cuts at this stage.

BTW, I did teach restoration at an English college for a while.

Woodould.....I figured you had this sort of experience...for which I'm grateful!
Yes, I'll have a go at between the leathers..it is the grottiest part of the whole job. I'm a little scared of damaqging the already poor leatherwork. Also, I agree not to be complacent..whilst this is my first project, there's no reason for it to be a half baked job! I do, however , want to make a decision about the leathers. Camera battery is charging, so cant post a pic yet, but a lot of the leather is dry , a few gouges and holes down to the timvber, and colour lifting from around the edges. Looks like someone (I wonder who???!!!) put tape around the edges and it lifted the colour! If they are beyond repair, I guess removing them and really working the whole top surface is the go. Otherwise, easy does it around those areas I guess.

Horsecroft....Thanks also for your 'marks' I imagine there is a grey area between getting everything right and leaving some of the so coalled 'character', with slight colour variation in the timvber, etc. (whgich actually does look quite good on this piece)

But again, right now, my hands have had it...they've been steel wooled, metho'ed and stripped of feeling for the night..and I think my wife wants me out of the garage for a night!

Will post leather close-up pics later FYI and views.
Cheers folks, lawry
ps. ..are either of you coming to Brisbane for the woodwork show later this month?

[Woodwould]

The desk is never going to look pristine, so pristine/replaced leathers would look out of place. And at any rate, replacement leathers would likely cost considerably more than the desk is worth!

Masking the leathers is what i would do, but with low-tack tape. Waxing the leathers will also aid in releasing the tape. Waxing the whole piece when finished will go a long way to restoring and improving the look of the leathers.

I seldom leave the house these days, so the Brisbane show is not on my radar I'm afraid.

[Lawry01]

Good morning gents!

Woodwould..pics of the leather attached. I knoiw what you mean about pristine new leather looking quite out of place..and I really have no idea about the cost of replacement anyway. I've cleaned it as best I could with a leather cleaner, and I have some connolly leather conditioner (used to have a nice old Jag that appreciated this stuff!)...is that what you would do to it?

Todays task, however, is to finesse the prep work as youve both suggested..maybe lightly sand the worst of the scratch marks?

Then, oh gracious mentors of mine..would I be ready to look at next steps?:U:U

So..its off upastairs for a quick coffee, then down to the project!

Cheers, Lawry

[Woodwould]

The leathers are a bit tatty in places, but don't warrant replacement in my book. I do see plenty more old finish dotted around the place! I don't know what's in Connolly's conditioner, but as already mentioned, the furniture wax you'll eventually use on the remainder of the desk will be suitable for the leathers too.

I've made my stance on the use of sandpaper.

No finish until the desk is clean! Once you have the remaining scuzz removed, give the woodwork a rub over with a medium Scotch pad and then vacuum it all over.

[Lawry01]

Yes sir!! Loud & Cleare!! Back to the rubbing then!! Connellys....dont know whats in it, but its a thick cream/ paste used in automotive leather, specifically designed for some of the more classic salloons..jags/ rolls etc. where connoly hide was used...however, if your suggesting that whatever we use on the timber will also be leather friendly, then why not kill 2 birds with one product!

[Lawry01]

Well gentlemen...trust you've had en enjoyable Friday. ...I think I've almost rubbed the desk to its soul! I've done a little bit harder work around the scratch matks.. evident, but improved. Taken off more of the gunge in between the leathers (not sure I want to do more, in fear of getting into the grain fibres), rubbed back the odds & ends I could see around the legs etc.Hopefully its ready for next phase. I'm just about to do the once over with scotchbrite and vacuum (wife will think her luck has changed if I touch that machkine!)

Also..is this the best way for us to use the forum/ communicate? I notice we have alomst got 40 'quotes ' between us all. All great and fun as well, but are we better off doing this off-line from the forum..say email or are you ok to just continue on? Lawry

[Woodwould]

If you continue on the forum, then somebody else might gain something from the thread in the future.

Now this is only my suggestion – there are dozens of possibilities with applying finishes – which I think will suit your abilities and provide good results.

Purchase some of our benefactor's Sanding Sealer (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/sandseal.htm) and apply it to the now absolutely spotless surface of the desk adhering to U-Beaut's instructions. You'll also want some of U-Beaut's French Polish (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/flakes.html#fp1) (following the instructions in steps 1 and 2 only) and some Traditional Wax (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/trad.html) in either Cedar or Neutral and again, follow the directions.

Buy a litre of meths from Bunny's for cleaning the brush etc. and some 600 grit wet-or-dry paper and post some pictures when you're finished.

[Lawry01]

If you continue on the forum, then somebody else might gain something from the thread in the future.

Now this is only my suggestion – there are dozens of possibilities with applying finishes – which I think will suit your abilities and provide good results.

Purchase some of our benefactor's Sanding Sealer (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/sandseal.htm) and apply it to the now absolutely spotless surface of the desk adhering to U-Beaut's instructions. You'll also want some of U-Beaut's French Polish (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/flakes.html#fp1) (following the instructions in steps 1 and 2 only) and some Traditional Wax (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/trad.html) in either Cedar or Neutral and again, follow the directions.

Buy a litre of meths from Bunny's for cleaning the brush etc. and some 600 grit wet-or-dry paper and post some pictures when you're finished.

Sounds good.....I note your 3 words, 8 syllables inclusive...."absolutely spotless surface"....! Well...I reckon its pretty good, and to take a leaf out of Horsecrofts views, a bit of 'patina' will enhance the character! As a first time apprecnice, you will probably give me a hard time, teach me a few hard lessons, and then say job well done - use what you've learnt next time to do even better!! I also note your safety clause..use steps 1 & 2 ONLY!!

More than happy to use Ubeaut material..Is it best for me to order from this site?
Can you help me understand why you are suggestihg French Polish rather than shellac? And what quantities of your suggested finishes would you think I would need please?

Looking forward to seeing this come together..and posting some amazing pics.
Lawry

[pmcgee]

Also..is this the best way for us to use the forum/ communicate? I notice we have alomst got 40 'quotes ' between us all. All great and fun as well, but are we better off doing this off-line from the forum..say email or are you ok to just continue on? Lawry

Don't you bloody dare!

Photos of nice furniture and other people working is what we come here for.
:U

And the excellent advice - as you know already. :)

Love the desk, love the carvings, love the oak.
You're doing a really good job.

Cheers,
Paul McGee

[Woodwould]

More than happy to use Ubeaut material..Is it best for me to order from this site?
... or from one of the listed suppliers. Carroll's (http://www.cws.au.com/) (Jim Carroll lives here too) is your best bet for mail order if you can't find it locally.


Can you help me understand why you are suggestihg French Polish rather than shellac?
French polish is shellac. If you'd prefer to use clear shellac or mix your own from U-Beaut's flakes, it's all fine.


And what quantities of your suggested finishes would you think I would need please?
A 500ml bottle of each should do the job.

[Christos]

Also..is this the best way for us to use the forum/ communicate? I notice we have alomst got 40 'quotes ' between us all. All great and fun as well, but are we better off doing this off-line from the forum..say email or are you ok to just continue on? Lawry


Don't you bloody dare!

Photos of nice furniture and other people working is what we come here for.
:U

And the excellent advice - as you know already. :)

Love the desk, love the carvings, love the oak.
You're doing a really good job.

Cheers,
Paul McGee

I'll seconded that. :U

[Lawry01]

OK OK!! I'll keep taking airtime on here ....and yes, you're all quite right...good for everyone who wants to to pick up some hints and appreciate the amazing generous advice!! Hoping I can return the favour for someone too!

Re desk..will order the sealer/ polish etc. unless I can access their Qld distributor first, then keep you all up to date.

Woodwould..you'll be pleased (& not surpised) to know that I have found a couple of little spots I'd like to work on a tad more first, as you say..stand back, look and see whats needed.

[Horsecroft88]

Hi all, and especially Lawry, sorry mate for being a little absent from this thread, had a busy weekend. Went and had a look on Saturday at this magnificant property called Shene (they have their website) as part of the Heritage Council Open Doors festival and on Sunday needed to spend time with the other half. She demanded my time :D

Right so back to your desk, from what I have read, you really seem to be on track and I am perfectly happy with the advice from Woodwould, he is on the money. If you have never used shellac before (and I take it being a novice to this sort of thing perhaps you havn't) don't be afraid of it. It really is very straight forward to use.

If you buy the pre made solution in a bottle that certainly is the easy way of doing this, and especially if you only need it for this project. On the other hand if you think you may want to do more such projects than buy the flakes, and metho from Bunnings/Mitre 10/wherever and mix your own as it will work out more economically.

Basically if you mix your own, use an old plastic icecream container or similar, and poor in a generous amount of flakes and cover with metho. You need more metho than flakes. Allow them to dissolve. Depending on conditions and quantities it should take somewhere around 20-30mins until it is ready.

I normally like to make a slightly thicker solution, say the consistency of milk or thereabouts. Too thin a solution and it will take many coats to build up to the finish you would be happy with. Too thick and it can be a little difficult to use. Hence, the suggestion to buy pre-made as you can avoid this issue. Though once you have a little experience with it, this won't be a problem.

In terms of application, because it is metho based it flashes off very quickly. I normally start application by using a paint brush and as needed thereafter will make a pad with lint free cloth and rub on. Generally try to follow the grain, also on the vertical surfaces always look out for any runs and try to rub these in.

High end French polishers from my understanding will only use a pad (with a solidish core) wrapped in lint free material and normally use a figure of 8 configuration. The good thing is that it is pretty forgiving.

I normally start off by applying 3-4 coats, allowing just enough time between applications to flash off, and then allow to properly dry off. If at anytime it feels tacky, leave it to dry properly.

Once I have done this stage, I normally rub back (either with fine grade paper) or fine grade steel wool. I then re-coat 3-4 coats and go through the same process.

From my experience the best final results come from the more applications. The finish should tell you when it has sufficient. As I build up the coats and/or if the shellac solution is becoming a little too 'thick" I normally dilute down a little with more meths before continuing coating.

The final stage is to buff off with 0000 grade steel wool and then wax polish. One coat should be sufficient but two even better. Again if you are having any problems in getting the polish off, change cloths as they can become clogged with polish.

Re: Conolly hide food, yes it is superb for leathers, and is highly recommended normally for re-invigorating old and dried leathers. Would it work in this instance I am not sure but I can't see why not. I don't think I would really be too keen on applying bees wax to old leather and trying to buff it off. I just don't know how this might work, it could be ok ??

Last word of advice here, please when you can post more pictures, especially of it finished. Look forward to seeing this. All the best.

[Lawry01]

Hi folks..Hi Horsecroft. Had a look at Shene...what an amazing homestead. Would love to go there whenever I hit Tassy!! The history in this place must be so rich, and no doubt the 'ghosts' have many stories to tell!

Horsecroft..you're obviously also a bit of a mind reader...yes, the advice from Woodwould and from you is amazing..and yes...shellac/ french polish..I AM afraid!! I was reading about application and started o get a litle concened that it was a bit too much for my experience, specially the few things I've read aboput applying in one smooth, straight stroke, and only overlapping marginallhy etc. This is obviously NOT like painting, where I can repeatedly move the brush up & down on the same area to get full cover etc. This is where Woodwould's tip of a very good brush is spot on..ideas on what sort?? But reading both your posts again now, and some of he info on the Ubeaut site, I reckon I'm (almost) ready to try. Any recommendations around how to shellac in and around the more intricate carved areas? Is this a matter of dabbing the brush around the contours etc? And of course, any extra tips for greenhorns using this product would be lapped up !I am thinking I might try the flakes, as I am ken to do more of this! It is a little addictive.

Hope to be able to get to this in the next few days, and am looking forward to being able to post some amazing photos. I'm amazed that others are keen to follow our copius postings, buit its all good.

Regards, Lawry

[Horsecroft88]

Heh heh Lawry, for sure Shene is pretty special, and I reckon you would be about right re ghosts or at very least the walls talking. The stables (the largest/grandest of the buildings there is spectacular. Having said that the shear breadth of historic buildings in Tas is a little mind blowing. I believe the Tasmanian Heritage Council have something like 4000 buildings permanantly listed.

Our property Horsecroft (hence my moniker), as per the photos previously shown on this thread is also listed given it dates back to 1826 and like Shene was nominated for the National Estate. Shene being far more significant is listed on the NE. Obviously also there are far more historic buildings around the place then are listed on the Tas Heritage Register.

If you ever get down here, give us a call (PM me) would be more than happy to catch up for a chat.

Now re shellac, good on ya. Thought you might have got the bug. I too started off like yourself. The first time I tried this, I really had no idea what I was doing but I soon caught on.

Regarding the coating process, that is what I think I might have been referring to. There is a lot of comment been made in various places as to how hard it is to "French Polish", but for the purposes to which you need to go with the desk, nah it is pretty straight forward and really forgiving. That is the beauty with the stuff. Basically I normally start of coating pretty liberally with the mixture and not worrrying about brush strokes, you can pretty much go in any direction you wish, though following the grain is better. You don't really need to overlap your previous stroke etc. However, saying this much as noted previously, always keep an eye out for any runs, or similar in the coating and work them in. As long as it is wet you can keep on working it. In respect of the tricky carvings and moulded areas etc, this is why using a brush in the first instance is really helpful. Dabbing it to start with is not a bad idea, but from thereafter treat as per the rest of the surfaces.

Once you have a good basic shellac coated surface, you can always move onto a pad. The pad minimises any risk of brush strokes remaining on a surface, not that this really should be a problem.

High end French Polishers, as I mentioned, and as I understand only use a pad, and are very finicky with the number of coats, the level of keying back between stages, the viscosity of the shellac mixture etc. The thing to remember, is that the more coats you apply, the more keying back between stages, and the more the number of stages applied, let alone, at the end the level of rubbing back with 0000 steel wool, the higher the degree of shine and depth of finish that you will achieve.

For instance if wanted a slightly duller finish, what I do, is actually dip the steel wool into the wax and polish it on and buff off in one process. Alternatively if I want a high gloss finish I dry buff the finish with steel wool and then apply wax and bufff off. Hope that makes sense.

Lastly re your question of paint brushes, I would tend to suggest that you use a decent bristle brush (not a cheap and nasty one with nylon bristles), and probably for your project no wider than say 30-40mm brush width.

[Christos]

Not to distract from the advise been given, I would like to add something on the mix of Shellac from flakes.

Personally I also filter this through a coffee filter. Dissolve in one jar with a lid mixing until little or no flakes are left, I might leave overnight to settle and in another jar where the coffee filter is secured to the jar I pour the contains into that jar.

As you pour from the mixing jar to the filting jar it becomes thicker and slower to filter. I might leave this over night to filter with lid on the filting jar.

[Lawry01]

Great tip thanks Christos. And an easy one too!

[Horsecroft88]

Not to distract from the advise been given, I would like to add something on the mix of Shellac from flakes.

Personally I also filter this through a coffee filter. Dissolve in one jar with a lid mixing until little or no flakes are left, I might leave overnight to settle and in another jar where the coffee filter is secured to the jar I pour the contains into that jar.

As you pour from the mixing jar to the filting jar it becomes thicker and slower to filter. I might leave this over night to filter with lid on the filting jar.

Thanks Christos, yes indeed quite correct, excellent advice. Some Shellac flake mixes can have a level of rubbish in them. Also as you use a shellac mix on a project, but return some back to your storage vessel when finished (if not all used up in any one instance) this too can contain debris (ie. dirt, dust, hairs etc). So, perhaps on occasions wise to re-filter your solution to keep it clean.

[Chief012]

Great post, glad you are keeping it public! Really appreciate all of the good advice, and patiently looking forward to more photos! :)

[Lawry01]

Quick progress report (as I know a couple are wtching this thread!) Have just done the sanding sealer, and waiting for it to dry to then sand back, clean up ready for shellac.
QUestion about using shellac....will it turn the timber an orange tone? If so, given that the timber is english oak, would I be better to use a wax with a stronger/ darker tint, or stick with neutral? WW suggested cedar....reddish?

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Lawry, was waiting to read an update, but figured you must have been plenty busy. Re the shellac, there is an element of both yes and no in this. Orange shellac if used on old timbers, that have previously had another finish on them (paints, varnishes, shellacs etc), from my experience will result in a darker colour coming through. With pine for instance, normally it will result in the appearance of rich golden sort of colour. However, when applied to cedar, it doesn't seem to do anything untowards and the natural dark reddish to lighter brown colours of the timber will prevail. With Tas oak (not English), it will tend to bring out the darker brown colours of the timber but only as you increase the number of coating/applications. Being a hardwood it seems to absorb the colours of the shellac slower.

With new timbers it is yet another story.

I havn't to date tried re-shellacing english oak but going on the desk my other half has I would have thought that rather than making it look orange, it would be more likely to bring out the variety of brown colours of the timber. English oak when new is almost whitish in appearance but with age, changes to darker browns, verging into really dark/red colours. Hence I can understand WW suggestions re the use of cedar wax polish rather than say neutral.

The other thing you could also aways consider is the use of stain addition to your shellac mix, (ie. oak if available or walnut) but for the beginner I would be careful in this, as it is too easy to over use the stain and therefore not get the result you want, and/or just suffer simple application issues including runs in the shellac mix (if that makes sense). Re -colouring wood is a skill in-itself.

If I can make one suggestion, if there are any areas of the desk that are less likely to be seen than the exposed outer surfaces you could perhaps always try them first to see how well the shellac works, and/or even taking it through to the waxing stage.

I for one, have always been happy with orange shellacs and as rule mostly use neutral/clear waxes rather than tinted ones. I have used cedar tinted waxes but find much of the colour seems to come off when you buff to shine.

[Lawry01]

Next Installment....have just finished the first 2 coats of shellac, and reasonably happy with result so far. I'm about to put on a 3rd. I do, however, have some areas that have run, are a bit thick, etc. I assume that after the 3rd coat, and a day of drying, I can take that back a little with 000 or 0000 wool? (with or without metho?) and then continue with my coats. So far I've been using a brish, buit would like to attempt a pad I think.
I do like how the grain has come up, and the colour I've ben able to get

Some of you may also be intrigued by the trolley jack under the desk..well..it actually has a bowed top, and I am trying to let it straighten out a little...any further ideas on this issue apprecuiated by the way!
Also..went to the Brisbane wood show Friday...fantastic to see all the folks there, and talk with some of the folks like Neil from U Beaut, Dave from Howards, Bob from this forum etc.

[Woodwould]

It's looking well. :thyel:

I would gingerly sand back any runs with some 600 grit wet or dry paper before proceeding with the third coat. And don't create any further runs!

[Lawry01]

It's looking well. :thyel:

I would gingerly sand back any runs with some 600 grit wet or dry paper before proceeding with the third coat. And don't create any further runs!

Aye Aye sir! Further runs are to be frowned upon from this point forwards in this household!!

I assume I wait for it to dry before sanding back (gingerly!) ...and byt he way.... thanks for your 'its looking well' comment! I take that as a pass from you!! :B

[Woodwould]

Aye Aye sir! Further runs are to be frowned upon from this point forwards in this household!!

I assume I wait for it to dry before sanding back (gingerly!)
Correct. Use a little soapy water to lubricate the paper and prevent it gumming up with what may still be soft polish inside the dribbles. Wipe it dry and inspect progress frequently as the water will make it look a lot better than it really is.



... thanks for your 'its looking well' comment! I take that as a pass from you!! :B
As you wish.

[Horsecroft88]

X1 for what Woodwould has advised, and yes try not to allow the shellac to make runs as they are a bit of a pain in the you know what to cut back.

Love how well the grain is coming through and the colour of the wood, especially if you compare how it looks now to when you first started, where it was the opposite. For me the test, to know when you are happy with it is two fold. Are you happy with the depth of colour/shine (before 0000 steel wool cutback and bees wax polish) and two how does it feel to your fingers when you rub them across the surface.

If it feels relatively smooth before cutting back, to me that is time to stop applying shellac and get ready to polish. On the other hand if it feels rough/coarse, then perhaps you need to cut back and apply a little more shellac coats.

I can't figure out how else to explain this. It is almost an intuitive thing for me.

Eitherway Lawry I think you are getting really close, to the fun part, the making it feel nice and silky from polishing it all up. I am sure you are going to be very happy with this desk.

[Lawry01]

Hi HC...you got me as I was having a coffee getting ready to head out and do the sanding back.

I also hang my head in shame, not yet being quite worthy of WW's final approval......:-

As you wish.[/QUOTE]

Time will be my test!! Grasshopper must respect all his Senseis' wisdom at all times!~!

And yes....I do love the colour coming through, and of course, its a little early to feel the silkiness, although I get a sense of what that will be like already! The desk has quite a wonderful warm glow about it...so I figure that if I'm excited about how its coming up now, that feeling will only increase as I continue.

Any ideas about the bowing (other than my trolley jack?)

Cheers, Lawry

[Woodwould]

Any ideas about the bowing (other than my trolley jack?)

Cheers, Lawry

The sagging is due to a common design fault. Short of completely dismantling the carcase and rebuilding it, the only way of counteracting the sagging would be to tension a wire across the bottoms of the legs to pull them inwards and thus eliminating the sag in the carcase. Don't you just love Victorian and Edwardian cabinetmakers!

[Lawry01]

The sagging is due to a common design fault. Short of completely dismantling the carcase and rebuilding it, the only way of counteracting the sagging would be to tension a wire across the bottoms of the legs to pull them inwards and thus eliminating the sag in the carcase. Don't you just love Victorian and Edwardian cabinetmakers!

ABsolutely....to our eye today, a very obvious design flaw, yet as a new piece, no doubt, a very streamlined and elegent piece!! (until you lean on it!) It would be interesting some day to actually try and date this build of this desk (although it has had some 'modernisation' done to it in the last 30 - 40 years by virtue of building in drawers & filing cabinet...not in any of my photos...looks like from a mob called Jaycee furniture in the UK..I think theu have shut down!) At any rate, the 'modern' component will be hidden behind the beautifully carve doors!

Off to sand back now..have soapy wate in hand and 600 grit ready!
L

[Horsecroft88]

Regrettably I think WW is on the money re the slight bowing, and while it is fine to keep the jack under the desk while you are working on it, somehow I doubt it is a good permanent solution. Ditto while the wire suggestion sounds good in theory, I too suspect that it probably isn't a long term future option. I am not sure I can offer any further useful suggestions apart from WWs comment re pulling the whole piece down, but seriously I don't think I would wish to entertain this thought.

So if it were me, I suspect and given the point of the exercise is to restore the desk for yourself rather than sale, I would simply live with it, though obviously keeping an eye on it and perhaps not placing anything too heavy in the middle (like a thumping big desk top computer etc).

You are doing well grasshopper, soon I am sure you will catch the fly with the chopsticks, or in other words, you will have mastered the ancient craft of re-polishing old furniture.

I too have a few more projects for myself to tackle in the near future including a couple of mahogany tables (side table and a drop leaf) which both need re-polishing (straightforward). Thereafter I am contemplating on some localised repairs to my father's mahogany Secretare, which unfortunately has been deeply scratched in the past by one of his cats. Am not sure yet how best to deal with this, filling, lightly sanding back and then polishing probably the best option, but it is the colour matching that is going to be the key to getting this project correct. I don't want to stuff it up, as it is a very expensive/rare piece of furniture.

[Lawry01]

AGreed...trolley jack is not practical in my study! (although I do sometimes need a lift!) And yes, we can add the bow to the list of 'character' features of the piece!.

3rd coat is on, so now, according to instructions, I wait 24 hours for it to dry before sanding and putting more coats! So...must be your turn HC to post some of your intended projects! The mahogony tables sound like they will come up nicely...the secretare sounds like a challenge! If only I had the experience to offer some wisdom..but I can offer encouragement!

The addiction has embedded itself..i want to see photos..before/ during & after. Also, (you & WW may cringe) I have acquired another old desk to restore!!! (no carvings, and NO varnish this time..a lovely old partners style desk) But more on that AFTER this one is ready!

N ow...off to the family room for an evbening scotch whlst my handywork dries!

[rustynail]

A nice piece of oak, either full sized or arched, between the two carcasses at the back forming a modesty panel would overcome the sag.

[Christos]

Thanks for the update and the photos. Glad you had a good time at the Brissy Wood Show. :2tsup:

[pmcgee]

Is the bow primarily at the front? I am assuming the rear stretcher functions to keep the rear basically in shape?

At the - almost inevitable - risk of comparison to half a dunny seat ... I wondered if you could use a brace like below either vertically or horizontally where your knees are destined to ensconse?

{Offered in a spirit of complete lack of knowledge, and minimal self-awareness} :)
Paul.

[Lawry01]

Folks..thanks for the ideas on the bowing. Paul....complete lack of knowledge, and minimal self-awareness has managed to get me this far with the desk, with everyone's generous assistance!!!

OK..so..the bow is primarily at front of desk, a bit like a camping tarp that sags in rain and pours water down a middlish 'spout'! The concept of an arch, front or back, I think is interesting....couple of points: fistly, there is a drawer in the middle / front, so that would be inthe way. Also, the idea of a modesty panel at back might help..there is a rear strectcher there already, but it has a slight buckle in response to the bow. I would be also concerned about detracting a bit from the originality of the piece (though, the addition of more comtemporary drawers etc. behind the carved doors has already breached this issue I guess!) Final option..as stated before, is that I enjoy it as it is, and put it down to character and age (and poor design....by either edward or Victoria) as long as it doesnt beome one of those quirks that I get frustrated about because it stays front of mind Damn that can be frustrating!!

Meanwhile..3rd coat of shellac is drying, and I am enjoying walking into the garage and admiring the fiinish so far, and anticipating even greater depth and sheen as I put 3 more coats on!

[Horsecroft88]

AGreed...trolley jack is not practical in my study! (although I do sometimes need a lift!) And yes, we can add the bow to the list of 'character' features of the piece!.

3rd coat is on, so now, according to instructions, I wait 24 hours for it to dry before sanding and putting more coats! So...must be your turn HC to post some of your intended projects! The mahogony tables sound like they will come up nicely...the secretare sounds like a challenge! If only I had the experience to offer some wisdom..but I can offer encouragement!

The addiction has embedded itself..i want to see photos..before/ during & after. Also, (you & WW may cringe) I have acquired another old desk to restore!!! (no carvings, and NO varnish this time..a lovely old partners style desk) But more on that AFTER this one is ready!

N ow...off to the family room for an evbening scotch whlst my handywork dries!


Mate, what another desk, you would definitely appear to have caught the restoration virus. There is no antidote apart from getting stuck in. Must be something to do with all those metho fumes, wax polishes etc :D

Admire your handiwork for it is well deserved, especially after you finish all those coats of shellac.

Re posting some pics (before/after of my next projects), yes point taken, but rather than stuff up your thread, I will start up a new one. This one afterall is about your project(s).

[rustynail]

Lawry, I did think about the originality of the piece, but went ahead with the post anyway. What about if we looked at a way of fitting the panel so it could be removed, allowing the desk to continue on its merry way towards the floor? If you have already fitted extra drawers I guess the piece is defiled anyway.

[pmcgee]

A nice piece of oak, either full sized or arched, between the two carcasses at the back forming a modesty panel would overcome the sag.

Doh :doh: I obviously can't read, sorry.

I read modesty panel and got stuck on a picture of a solid panel.

Sorry RN.
Paul.

[Lawry01]

Arghhh!!!!!! I'm getting a little scared here! One step at a time for me folks!! Remember..? Grasshopper here!!!!! ;)

[rustynail]

A little fear never hurt anybody.

[pmcgee]

A little fear never hurt anybody.

That's what my mother always said. :C

[Woodwould]

It's what my missus says to me when I open my eyes in the morning and see her staring down at me.

[rustynail]

It's what my missus says to me when I open my eyes in the morning and see her staring down at me.
Well at least she's still speaking to you.

[Lawry01]

OK...quick question.......after my 3 coats of shellac, rubbing back with with either 000 s/w or 400 to 600 wet and dry. Which is the preferred, and how much 'rubbing back'.....how will I know I've rubbed back enough to then be ready for more shellac? Also, thinking about using a cotton pad v's brush for the rest of my coats. Ideas? Lawry

[Woodwould]

OK...quick question.......after my 3 coats of shellac, rubbing back with with either 000 s/w or 400 to 600 wet and dry. Which is the preferred, and how much 'rubbing back'.....how will I know I've rubbed back enough to then be ready for more shellac? Also, thinking about using a cotton pad v's brush for the rest of my coats. Ideas? Lawry
You've now arrived at a subjective point: Does it not look deep and shiny enough yet? Is there enough polish on the wood? Do you just cut it with steel wool now and wax it?

Depending on its original finish, the result of stripping it and the cut (concentration) of the shellac, the wood might still appear hungry, or it may be full up. I'd suggest cutting it back – with both wool and paper, separately – in areas that don't show too much and see what you think.

[Lawry01]

Hmmmmm..OK..have done a rub back, made up more shellac, and found on application a lot of it has finished cloudy/ milky , as though its taking the colour out of the wood? What is this, and what do I do please? Frustrating!

[Woodwould]

Hmmmmm..OK..have done a rub back, made up more shellac, and found on application a lot of it has finished cloudy/ milky , as though its taking the colour out of the wood? What is this, and what do I do please? Frustrating!
It's known as 'bloom' and is the result of moisture being trapped in the polish. You can either cease polishing while the weather is cool and damp, or heat the work area. If you very gently heat the bloomed areas locally with a hairdryer (held a reasonable distance from the polish so as not to melt it), the bloom will disappear.

If you stop now, the bloom will likely partially disappear on its own with change in the weather, but some patches may remain. A further application of polish (or a wipe over with a cloth dampened with meths) will disperse the bloom.

[Lawry01]

Ahh yes..THANKS WW! Today is the first day of some very damp weather here, and our garage does hold the dampness! Also, I noticed after leaving for a couple of hours a fair bit of the 'bloom' had indeed dissipated! :2tsup: So...its off to the bathroom for wifes hairdryer (I no longer have hair!) and get on with the job! (I was VERY concerned that I might have to do more severe rubbing back. :doh:) So. onward & upward..hope to be posting some finished product pics soon! And hoping for no further issues. Thanks again, Lawry.

[Woodwould]

Go very gingerly with the dryer... sort of swipe it across from a distance and only move closer if you're certain it's not clearing the bloom. Never point the dryer directly at the fresh polish!

[Lawry01]

thanks WW..bloom now appears to have all but gone. Will probably leave it till tomorrow for next coats. Thinking I might heat up the garage a little first to push out any dampness. L

[Christos]

Ah the old hair dryer trick.

Several things come to mind. One a show called Get Smart, showing my age there. The same thing can be used when trying to get bubbles out of epoxy finish in fishing rod as it turns slowly. And what sort of hair dryer did they have when polishing in the past. :U

[Woodwould]

And what sort of hair dryer did they have when polishing in the past. :U
All cabinetmakers' workshops would have had a stove for heating glue, warming groundwork for veneering and keeping the place warm and dry for polishing.

I used to have a honking great stove in the workshop into which I stuffed tons of old furniture. It was the best use of Victorian furniture I know of.

[Horsecroft88]

Ah don't I know about that problem, as noted by WW and Christos, yep some warmth is the key to sorting that out. I think I had previously mentioned that for us down south in the colder climes, the old clouding (bloom) problem can occur, simply due to the cold (and probably moisture in the atmosphere). Keeping your workshop dry and reasonably warm is definitely the means of preventing this problem.

If the hairdryer trick hadn't worked then yes I am afraid a light keying back would have been needed. Glad it wasn't.

Hopefully by now given it is a few days later all is well, and you are back on track. If you can post a few snaps of where the desk is at now, I suspect we might be able to help confirm what is needed next. I agree with WW that all going well you probably are ready (or close to) the 0000 super fine steel rub back and wax polishing stage. :2tsup:

Looking forward to your progress Lawry.

[Lawry01]

Well hi there HC....you've found me online while I await further 'drying' after lighly rubbing back my 6/7th coat ..The bloom did in fact dissappear (grateful!!) and my wife says I didnt let it dry enough after rubbing back with 600 dipped in water & dteregent..even though it looked dry to the eye! One can even learn from her! (shouldnt say this too loudly..it WILL go to her head!) I'm thinking of putting another 3 coats or so , so that the finish is just that little bit more of a sheen, without feeling the texture of the grain so much. Happy to post pics now, but wonder whether its better later this afternoon after the next lot of shellac? Right now its in 'rubbed back 'form.and DRYING!! We have a slighly warmer but windy day, so garage is open...bloom, bloom go away!!

[Woodwould]

Well hi there HC....you've found me online while I await further 'drying' after lighly rubbing back my 6/7th coat ..The bloom did in fact dissappear (grateful!!) and my wife says I didnt let it dry enough after rubbing back with 600 dipped in water & dteregent..even though it looked dry to the eye! One can even learn from her! (shouldnt say this too loudly..it WILL go to her head!) I'm thinking of putting another 3 coats or so , so that the finish is just that little bit more of a sheen, without feeling the texture of the grain so much. Happy to post pics now, but wonder whether its better later this afternoon after the next lot of shellac? Right now its in 'rubbed back 'form.and DRYING!! We have a slighly warmer but windy day, so garage is open...bloom, bloom go away!!

I'm beginning to wonder about the cut (dilution) of your polish. If you feel the need to apply so many coats (six should be plenty for refinishing oak), then it might be an issue... or it may be amateur (no offence intended) preconception.

I know it's been cold and damp, but the bloom might also indicate polish that's too dilute as it's the meths in the polish that absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. The low temperature slows the evaporation of the meths resulting in the moisture remaining in the polish, causing the bloom.

What cut of polish are you using?

[Lawry01]

I'm beginning to wonder about the cut (dilution) of your polish. If you feel the need to apply so many coats (six should be plenty for refinishing oak), then it might be an issue... or it may be amateur (no offence intended) preconception.

I know it's been cold and damp, but the bloom might also indicate polish that's too dilute as it's the meths in the polish that absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. The low temperature slows the evaporation of the meths resulting in the moisture remaining in the polish, causing the bloom.

What cut of polish are you using?

ABsolutely NO offence taken..quite the opposite..I am in major 'learn' mode, thanks to you guys!!

So, yes, maybe its just my preconception that I shouldnt really be able to feel the grain texture (but then, as I think about it, I guess to get to that glass like finish...I would need much more expeience in FP.)

The cut I'm using is 250grams flakes to 1litre meths. I do realy think now that the bloom was caused by my impatience. !
Regardless, now that I've lightly sanded back, I guess I am committed to at least another 1 or 2 coats? Lawry

[Woodwould]

Oak is seldom treated to a glassy finish; that's normally the preserve of close grained timbers. Pictures probably won't clearly show the level of polish, but I'm tipping you're about there now.

Cut and wax grasshopper... wax on... wax off!

[Lawry01]

Oak is seldom treated to a glassy finish; that's normally the preserve of close grained timbers. Pictures probably won't clearly show the level of polish, but I'm tipping you're about there now.

Cut and wax grasshopper... wax on... wax off!

Yes sensai! But do I do another coat first to fill in where I've rubbed back..or straight to the oooo (dry, or with some wetting agent?) and wax? What waxes are suitable do you think?

[Woodwould]

Yes sensai! But do I do another coat first to fill in where I've rubbed back..or straight to the oooo (dry, or with some wetting agent?) and wax? What waxes are suitable do you think?
Hmm, hard questios first! If you feel the surface has thinned out where you sanded back the runs, then a carefully applied coat is likely warranted. On the otherhand, if you skillfully rubbed back the dribbles and the surface looks tickety-boo, then go straight to 0000 and wax and do not pass 'Go'.

[Lawry01]

Well......I'm thinking a carefully applied coat might be warranted..just to be sure. Between you & WW, you certainly put the pressure on....phrases like 'skillfully rubbed back' tickety boo', and WW's earlier 'pristine surface' etc., I feel I need to eat a little humble pie and remind myself I've NEVER done this sort of work before..thus should be proud of my amateurish attempts!! (Hows that for pre-emptive rationalisation!)

Also, re oooo and wax..I've read in may places to wait 7 days before doing this...you're both seeming to suggest not to wait? Also, are you in favour of using oooo to apply and rub in the wax as well? Then, the question is which wx...like oils, I gather waxes ain't waxes!! :)

[Woodwould]

Well......I'm thinking a carefully applied coat might be warranted..just to be sure. Between you & WW, you certainly put the pressure on....phrases like 'skillfully rubbed back' tickety boo', and WW's earlier 'pristine surface' etc., I feel I need to eat a little humble pie and remind myself I've NEVER done this sort of work before..thus should be proud of my amateurish attempts!! (Hows that for pre-emptive rationalisation!)

Also, re oooo and wax..I've read in may places to wait 7 days before doing this...you're both seeming to suggest not to wait? Also, are you in favour of using oooo to apply and rub in the wax as well? Then, the question is which wx...like oils, I gather waxes ain't waxes!! :)The coats of polish have been built up over several days with time for each coat to sink... and, this isn't a high gloss situation, so I would give it about a day between final polish and wax. Our benefactor, U-Beaut sells wax that will do the job nicely. I think I mentioned it earlier and even the colour... I can't remember now, cedar colour?

[rustynail]

Metho will grab water and hold it, causing bloom. Just a 100w light globe (old style) gives enough heat to prevent bloom. it needs to be turned on though.

[Horsecroft88]

Hi guys, sorry was away from the computer, in a meeting with the boss, who is going on leave for a few weeks and he wanted to discuss some work issues we are dealing with here. Hmn should be working so will try to keep it brief (sort of).

Re the cut of the mix between shellac flakes to meths. What I normally do, is start of with a slightly more viscous mix for the initial coats and as I work the polish levels up (number of coats), I thin the mixture down a little, such that the final coats of polish to be applied are definitely thinner than original. I have found that if you keep the mix too thick, for all coats it can actually give a surface that is not so conducive to doing the final polish/wax and as well the risk of runs in the polish can occur, and are then difficult to work out. But of course there in also lays the other risk that meths itself seems to draw in moisture and lead to the bloom problem.

Anyway i would say you should be on track by now. Hopefully with the last coats having been applied, for I think I probably would have wanted to apply a couple of quick coats after having cut back the bloom issue.

But after that yes you most definitely should be ready for 0000 and then wax (wax on wax off as WW says :2tsup:.

I only ever dry steel wool polish, have never used a cutting compound or lubricant. Again I would tend to agree with WW that oak normally doesn't have a high gloss, unless perhaps you are talking about say a piece from the 16C or 17C that has had hundreds of years of waxing. Hence if so, then using steel wool dipped into the wax and worked onto the surface and buffed off, should give you the desired finish. The alternative if you are not convinced is again perhaps trying either approach (steel wool polish and then wax/buff off as well as dipping the steel wool into the wax and polishing before buffing off) on a surface not readily seen, if that is possible to see which you like best.

Re: time frames, no I don't believe 7 day waiting to polish up should be needed, 24 hours should be sufficient given how you have applied the polish and your climate up north.

Re: what sort of wax polish, I use a product which most antique restorers down here in Hobart seem to use. It is called Old McDonalds Antique wax polish. However, I am sure the ubeaut products also are excellent. I just havn't tried them to date. The one though you do want is a polish that readily rubs into the surface and easily buffs off. In the past I have tried waxes that are horrid to apply and even worse to buff off. I you get something like that don't perserve with it, it will drive you nuts.

Whether you go for clear or coloured wax is to an extent probably not hugely critical, as both should work fine. The point is that the natural colour of the oak, coupled with the shellac polish should have given you a really lovely colour to work with.

[Lawry01]

Rustynail..your wisdom about light globes being turned on is awe inspiring!! ;)
HC & WW, yup...just did a final 2 coats to fill in where I rubbed back, and now will wait a day or two to burninsh with oooo, then .......YAY!! Wax on...wax off!!!!!! :) and finally, re-fit hinges, locks etc. and hope it all still fits! And yes..I actually am quite impressed with the colour achieved so far!

[Woodwould]

Rustynail..your wisdom about light globes being turned on is awe inspiring!! ;)
It's like a light just went on!

[Lawry01]

It's like a light just went on!
The light of enlightenment! So, really..this forum IS a front for a cult then!?? :roll: