What stains can I use under shellac / french polishing?

[berntd]

Hello
I haven't found any usable range of turps based woodstains / dyes on the shelves of Bunnings and other hardware stores.

Where do you other folks buy your stains, suitable for wiping and for use under shellac?


In this case, I am refinishing an old cabinet gramophone and I need something dark, almost like that Feast Watson black japan (which isn't a stain) or dark whalnut.

The Wattyl traditional stain range is not tups or spritis based and it partially dissolves when applyhing the shellac and become blotchy.

Any hints/ ideas will be greatly appreciated

Best regards
Bernt

[dabbler]

Wattyl still make a solvent based stain AFAIK. I know I bought a Wattyl thinner at bunnies to suit the same about 18mo ago.

Wattyl under shellac was almost always my Dad's choice for his gramophone restores and he was an avid collector and did more than I can remember. I've finished off a couple of his incompleted jobs in the same way.

Not sure if you trying for an original appearance or not. Most weren't as dark as you'd think. Often tbe original finish darkened over time esp. when it was cracked and crazed. What's the interior like? If trying for original look this would normally be the colour to match. Maybe you know this. Sorry if that's case.

Which make + model ? On the other hand...if it's just the cabinet your doing and have ditched the innards then I morally can't assist you.

[Chipman]

Bunnings no longer stock Wattyl products,(stopped last year) so try another hardware or paint distributor.

Cheers,

Chipman

[berntd]

Hello and thanks for the replies.

Maybe you folks missed it in my original post but the solvent based Wattyl Traditional Stain DOES dissolve partially when applying the alcohol and it makes the appearance blotchy. I have tried it before and was dissapointed.
If Wattyl make a diffrent stain or if there is a way around that, please let me know.
I am open to all ideas :)

This particular gramophone is very dark inside as well.
THe gramophone is a Tonaphone (Made in Oz) and no, I am not ditching any innards. :no:
It was in really bad condition with tons of veneer lifint everywhere and missing. I have repaired it all and am now ready to stain / finish it.

I am keeiping the inside of the lid with original finish because it is still good has the original decal.

For interest:
Bunning apparently stopped stocking Wattyl because Wattyl were bought by Woolworths and Woolworths is opening its own hardware chain in competition with Bunnings.
Heard that from someone so no guarantee on accuracy.
Bernt

[Chipman]

Suggestions:

Use something that is not soluble in methylated spirit.

An oil based stain...make sure it is thoroughly dry a few days to a week?
A water base stain should work (make sure you rub it off well and is properly dry)


Experiment....mix the spirit based dye stain with the shellac and use that as the stain and finish?

Cabbots make oil and water based stains and is sold at Bunnings.

Your choice will probably depend on the type of wood you are using. Hard tight grained timbers do not absorb pigmented stains very well.


Regards

Chipman

[dabbler]

Chipman has offered a number of good options to try. The Wattyl professional craftsman I always used and seen used by others for cabinetary from the era is spirit based more or less sits atop harder timbers. Soft more absorbent timbers will often appear blotch if spirit stained. I'm sure you know Wattyl and others do make water based and gels that are more suitable for softer timbers. However the Tonaphone cabinet wouldn't be considered soft.

A goodly wait period between stain and polish stages is usually needed, as suggested.

Also depends how far back you went. You may need a sanding sealer, then spirit stain, then optional stain again, then shellac.

I've never applied mixed stain and shellac so can't comment.

Are you a gramophone collector or is the Tonaphone a one-off project ?

[berntd]

Hello again and thank again for the kind replies.

Thanks Chipman.
Tha Carbot's oil based interior stain looks promising. I didn't see that at Bunnings in the darker colours. Not even the pamphlet I have here shows the darker colourts but their website does!!

I will go and check it out.

I was contemplating making my own stain if I can't find the right thing.



@Dabbler:
Collector? Not really in the sense that I have dozens of these machines (yet) and this is 1 of 2 gramophone project I have. I have a total of 4 gramophones.
This particluar Tonaphone was basically scrap and I have been 'getting round to it' for for some years years. Now I seem to be making progress. It is an interesting refinishing project.


The case is veneered all over so I used paint stripper to remove the remains of old finish and I have washed the case down with thinners to remove some of the old staining + a light sanding, so as not to damage the veneer.

I will need to start from scratch and I may need a sanding sealer.

Could you point me in the right direction for a sanding sealer as well perhaps?


Best regards
Bernt

[dabbler]

Ubeaut have a sanding sealer but say it should not be used with spirit stains. Maybe it's same for all. So I guess you need to read the spec sheets for every product you want to use in combination. I've never used one as my restore projects have started in reasonable nick.

As for the Tonaphone, it was manufactured by a local homewares company that sold the same machines under different brand names (one of the other names was Salonola). At some stage they started selling only as Salonola. Many machines were veneered, usually very thin, some over plys, some solids and most had fairly generic grain patterns. I suppose this meant two machines would look close to identical. Only the most expensive machines used solid timbers with distinctive grains. Still, even the most utilitarian ones were built to last by skilled craftsmen.

There are several gramophone forums, at least one based in OZ. They may be a better source of info.

[berntd]

Very interesting.

You seem to know a bit about gramophones!
I know (sort of) gramophoneshane. Maybe you know him too?

Yes, it is a veneered plywood construction with only the 4 legs and parts of the lid being made of solid timber. That is a good thing because plywood doesn't warp or crack like solid timer pieces I have worked with.

Just to make sure... Sanding sealer is after staining right?

A grain sealer would be good too but I haven't seen that aroudn either. My old book uses very fine pumice stone to rub into the grain and seal it before applying the shellac.

Best regards
Bernt

[dabbler]

From what I've read, sanding sealers are used pre other treatments. I *think* they close the tiny tears created by the sanding process but like I said I've only read never used (that's not to say some projects wouldn't have benefitted). Like many things, I know the methods and products that have worked for me or seen others use but probably little else Maybe that's a reason not to listen to me !!

I don't really know any (living) collectors.

My Dad was an avid gramophone collector. Active in the Brisbane enthusiast circles from the late 60's to mid 90's and had a very large collection. So I grew up with a collector and restorer. As my parents down sized, all the kids got one or two, some were sold off (before we intervened) and much of the paraphernalia, spare bits and parts, incomplete machines, family heirlooms and one or two (or ten) came to me. Actually I have never counted. I only display three. But I'm a music philistine and don't turn a crank anywhere nearly enough for their good.

I don't think there is a tonaphone left in the family collection. There are still upright and console Salonolas but can't recall the models.

[RETIRED]

Most spirit based stains will pull when applying Shellac.

A water based dye is best for remaining colour fast and will not pull when applying shellac.

[berntd]

Hello

@Dabbler
Thanks for the info on your family collection. I personally like these machine for the old technology they represent. In my opinion there are better ways to listen to music nowadays :-)

@
Yes!! Please tell me where to get them.

Best regards
Bernt

[RETIRED]

U-Beaut Polishes - NON TOXIC WATER DYES (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dye.html)

[berntd]

Hi ,

From what I saw there, those are tiny bottles artificial colours like red green etc and not wood stains as per the original requirement. Right or am I missing something there?

Regards
Bernt

[RETIRED]

You can mix to get whatever colour you like and control the level of tint.

A little goes a long way and you can dilute as well.

They will dye the wood provided you get back to bare timber.

If however you are looking for a stain that will go over an existing finish, the only way I know is to mix a compatible stain with your finish.

For example we have mixed Wattyl Craftsmen with NC lacquer to obtain a colour match on a damaged cabinet. Not nice but it worked.

[TKO]

Hi, have read with interest the many ways you could use a french polish over different stains, I have used nearly every type of paint and stain under shellac,

I had a hobby e few years back Graining the metal work on Vintage cars,This was on metal mostly, the parts would come to me repaired and primed in auto primer.I would depending on what type of wood finish they wantedI would some times use auto colour or oil colour for the back ground work, then grain in oil stain,when thorouly dry would over grain in water,using a talc dusting to over come the oil ,then two thin coats of shellac when again dry,have used water ,oil, and lacquer finish,What I am saying is that if you spray the shellac on you will not disturb the stains, But using a brush or rubber to apply the shellac you will lift the previous coat, spray the shellac on you can just about seal off most of the different stain's.when you french pollish
You should not bedisturbing the shellac because you will be buildind the coats up.

For instance painters knotting which is laquer based is used to hold back weeping knots in the timber,also will seal water stains on ceiling and walls.I have put apic in to show how the different paints are protected by the lacquer just my thoughts .

[berntd]

Hello TKO

Thank you for that. It makes total sense that the stain will not be disturbed much if the shellace is sprayed on.

Luckily I haven't started yet because of other comitments (work!) and the weather.

I think I will do it like that. i have the necessary equpiment (compressor / gun etc) to spray.

I have never sprayed shellac before and I wonder if there is anything one needs to know?

Best regards
Bernt

[TKO]

Hi berntd, Some thing I should of mentioned ,was I always used dewaxed french polish over any oil stain i used to seal off the work, I did make a lot of use of white polish or white shellac as some called it and it sprays ok some french polishes, if been around awhile become quite thick and if left for a long time the wax sinks to the bottom and when stired gets messy,no need for thick coats two or three thin ones is best, wash the spray gear out with meths when finished,

This is what I do, it is not every ones choice of solving your problem.


Good luck with your project look forward to seeing the finish.

Cheers Edwin

[RETIRED]

You can mix to get whatever colour you like and control the level of tint.

A little goes a long way and you can dilute as well.

They will dye the wood provided you get back to bare timber.

If however you are looking for a stain that will go over an existing finish, the only way I know is to mix a compatible stain with your finish.

For example we have mixed Wattyl Craftsmen with NC lacquer to obtain a colour match on a damaged cabinet. Not nice but it worked.
Meant to add that this was sprayed on.:-