Air sealing oil

[Arron]

Anyone know what "air sealing oil" is? The context is that I read it in a manual for one of those el-cheapo mistral air conditioners.

thanks
Arron

[Cliff Rogers]

???? Can't find anything sensible, I thing it might be a case in Chinglish.

What was the whole sentence that it was used it?

[Wildman]

I read that in an El-cheapo Akai split system, I ignored it and just tightened up the piping and it seals fine. Put the split system in myself. No need for a vacuum pump, just blew the air out of the pipes with the system gas itself. Worked a treat.

Cheers
Ben

[Arron]

"Wipe the air sealing oil on the closing valve and the trump extended pipe. Screw down the pump of connecting pipe with the wrench."

"A layer of air proof oil should be coated on the joint before the pipe has been connected. Align the axis of each pipe and tighten screw nut with a spanner."

Yes, Ben, I am considering putting the unit in myself. It looks pretty easy - if the gap between units is less then 7 metres and therefore there is no need to add more refrigerant. One thing about the el-cheapo systems is that they come complete and ready to install as the marketers are obviously anticipating that many people who buy a aircon for $300 will then be reluctant to pay $500 to have it installed. If the manual is telling the truth, it looks like just a matter of connecting up the electrical wires as per the wiring diagram, connecting the pipes and tightening with a spanner, routing the drain pipe using a bit of common sense, and then bleeding the air out of the system. Has anyone put one of the mistral systems in themselves and is this how it panned out ?

Of course self installation may void the warranty - but I dont care about.

Arron

[tcns]

I have found a company in Brisbane that will come out and commission the aircon by vaccing it out and checking your install and will sign your warrnaty card, pretty good value for $88 and you keep your warranty

Oh and on the air sealing oil you don't need it just tighten the pipes till you feel the copper of the flare meet the copper of the convex fitting, you should feel it engage and squash itself - that is all that is needed. My manual suggested 55nM of torque from memory ?

If the moisture stay in the system it will react with the AC gas and form a mild acid - not what you want inside your air con system slowing destroying the components

Tom

[Arron]

Tom, what is the name of the company. I'll see if they have a Sydney office. I tried some of the local companies and they said they would be happy to vac it and check it over - but for the same price as a complete install !!!!

Anyone know of a Sydney company that will do the vaccing for a fair price - you may be able to save me a few more phone calls.

I rang the company that is the recommended installer for these machines and they quoted me 'from $600' for the installation. When they see the woodwork they would have to do to get it installed I know they will double or triple that as it is not a simple job getting it installed - or more likely just walk away from the job altogether.

I am happy to put it up myself and give it a good bleed to get the air and moisture out and take my chances, but I would rather get someone else to check it and vac it if for around the price you paid.

Arron

[Beaton]

So do the misteral air cons come pre gassed, and just a matter of fitting the to ends of the pipe and tightning, Went to kmart to have a look last night but they were all boxed up i take it they come with all the right gear.

[Beaton]

Does anyone know what the interconnecting cable ids between the outside and inside unit is, how many cores.

[tcns]

So do the misteral air cons come pre gassed, and just a matter of fitting the to ends of the pipe and tightning, Went to kmart to have a look last night but they were all boxed up i take it they come with all the right gear.
Yes all air cons come pre gassed but they need vaccing out to remove moisture
and to check the system holds vacuum.

They company is only a Brisbane company so it won't be any help there, in a few months you should be able to secure the services of a guy to come out and commission the system, other than that I all I can suggest is to look for smaller operations and offer cash.

There are two cables ususally one twin core for a control unit and a 3 core for the power. The small units I have installed draw power from indoor unit via a 3 pin plug and supply the outdoor unit via the cable.

If you are not familiar at this stage I would stop here, mount the units up in side and out, pull the cables through, join up the pipes and torque them up and then call someone to finish it off*


Tom


*There is my disclaimer - I really don't care what you do but don't blame me if you blow it up or yourself up.

Tom

[Beaton]

Don’t worry mate sparkey by trade, just like to no what I’m up against before I go and by the little sucker, Kmart had them all boxed up and trying to get info out of the person I was talking to was like getting blood from a stone. Thanks for the concern thou, I hopefully I want blow myself up. :)

[Fat Pat]

Um, guys.

Have a little think about what is happening with the installation process. The pipes have to be vacuum pumped to get the AIR & WATER out of the system.

The reason you want the WATER out of the system is that otherwise the water will FREEZE inside the system SOMEWHERE! Depending where it freezes will determine what level of inefficiency or DAMAGE may result to your system.

Sort of like a blood clot in the human body! Think about it....as in STROKE!

As for the WATER/ACID thing, dunno about that, I can't claim to be an expert about that. Vac pumping will sort that out anyway.

Blowing the air/water out of the system with the refridgerant might work, but is wasteful of coolant, and will lower your pressure - resulting in a less effecient system. Over time, that will result in a harder-working system, with resultant higher operating costs. An extra $3 a week will quickly eat into the money you saved on installation!

I have a mate who is always claiming that he can save money on this or that. Constantly railing against the injustices and conspiracies being employed by big business in their quest to remove money from our wallets. Funny thing is, he sometimes makes a mistake - sometimes a really BIG mistake. Ends up costing him 1,000's to rectify. All to save a couple of bucks!

Do yourself a favour, pay the $88 and get it professionally vac'c and seal checked. Otherwise it MAY be a FALSE economy.

BTW, I am not an A/C installer, a mate of mine is, and the work we had to do when putting in two splits showed me why you need to install one correctly.

At your peril boys!

[Beaton]

Does anyone now if someone charges about that price in perth, Preferabley south of the river.

[Fat Pat]

You could always ring up a few of the A/C mobs, and see what they will say.


How far south of the river though? Albany is south, but a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGG was south of the river.

[Arron]

So do the misteral air cons come pre gassed, and just a matter of fitting the to ends of the pipe and tightning, Went to kmart to have a look last night but they were all boxed up i take it they come with all the right gear.

Yes - pregassed. Yes, they come with all the gear, right down to a handful of concrete nails and bonding tape. I think you would have to be a total DIY-retard to have problems putting these units together. The manual implies that you dont need to vacuum pump, but I take the point made that for the sake of $88 I'd rather have someone do the deed.

Id's on the pipes are liquid = 1/4, gas = 3/8 inch. The length supplied is roughly 4.3 metres. There is a three pin plug for power-in which (typically) is on a cable not really long enough to go anywhere. The electrical connectors between the units are all colour coded and diagrams are supplied - no chance of error on the electrical side.

Overall, seem to be good value, although expectations are low at $299. Good for occassional use in a bedroom or similar. Not the sort of thing I would buy if I was going to be running it a lot though.

Here is a copy of the manual. The unit at KMart is the MSS10.
http://www.mistral.com.au/InstructionBooks/AirConditioners/MSS10_MSS15_MSS20_MSS25.pdf

Arron

[capedcrusader]

Anyone know what "air sealing oil" is? The context is that I read it in a manual for one of those el-cheapo mistral air conditioners.

thanks
Arron

Might be stating the obvious but air sealing oil might refer to drying oil (boiled Linseed Oil) used by gasfitters to seal pipe unions. You should only put it on the threads of a flared fitting though and youd have to use a sealer compatible with the refrigerant gas ie: youre not supposed to use "stag" only Linseed oil with NG.

[NAT32]

My MSS10 worked fine after a self-install about a year ago - until today.
I turned it on as usual by pressing the I/O button on the Remote Control and all I get are two flashing LEDs: the green Run led and the red Sleep led. This seems to be some kind of self-test error indication, as no other keys produce any kind of response (other than a beep). Does anyone know what the flashing LEDs mean?

I have two such units and tried the remote control with the other unit and it works ok.

[Ashore]

Usually these systems are over gassed to alow the purging of air
Purge each pipe as you connect, from the top fitting , there isn't much air to expell , just do it slowly.
More often than not valves in a/c systems are back seating , this means when you have finished purging etc and all the fittings are tight open the valve fully as it seats against the top of the valve housing to stop any leaks
It is illegal to vent a/c gas into the atmosphere thus the vacuum system so that the gas can be collected & disposed of properly.
Without completely vacuuming the system and re-charging with a new gas charge I don't know how you would only take out the air from the system with a vacuum unit.
Water in the system can cause problems , usually freezing the TX valve , this is the valve that expands the gas giving a tempreture reduction , just before the evaporator, but is highly unlikely in a simple split system if you follow the install instructions and don't remove the caps on the pipes untill you are ready to fit them.
Doubt if you ever will but should you get a frozen valve switch the unit off wrap with a cloth and pour boiling , or very hot water on it , this should melt any ice inside the valve, allow unit to settle and purge air/water from high point on the gas side.

[Ashore]

My MSS10 worked fine after a self-install about a year ago - until today.
I turned it on as usual by pressing the I/O button on the Remote Control and all I get are two flashing LEDs: the green Run led and the red Sleep led. This seems to be some kind of self-test error indication, as no other keys produce any kind of response (other than a beep). Does anyone know what the flashing LEDs mean?

I have two such units and tried the remote control with the other unit and it works ok.
Have you tried replacing the batteries in the remote unit

[NAT32]

Have you tried replacing the batteries in the remote unit
The remote control is OK. I had tested it with my second MSS10 to make sure.

I've since taken a look at the control board inside the indoor unit. It has a Toshiba 86P807N microcontroller. Its control inputs are three temperature sensors, a thermistor in the outdoor unit, a thermistor on the indoor heating/cooling coil, and an indoor air temperature sensor. I suspected that, on power on, the control program runs a self-test that checks those temperature sensors, as they are most likely crucial components. I then measured the resistance of the outdoor thermistor and it was only 2 Ohms. I checked the same component in my other MSS10 and it had a resistance of around 6000 Ohms (at 15 degrees). So I took out the bad thermistor and replaced it with a 4.7KOhm resistor and turned the unit on. Success! The unit started up normally and no flashing LEDs. So all I have to do now is get a proper replacement thermistor, hopefully from the service agent Electric Blue Installations in Dandenong.

[Ashore]

Sorry Nat I miss read your other post I read it as you tried the second remote and it worked the unit ok , not that you tried the remote on the second unit
Job well done though, you might try jay-car if you have problems getting the replacement thermister.


Rgds

[jolybean]

does anyone successfully install the mistral a.c ? is there any special tool that we need to buy in order to do the job?

[Goose]

Have been doing A/C work for about 10 years, Never heard of Air sealing oil !!!
Their is a product called leak lock, this is a proper refrigeration sealant for flared fittings or gaskets. As far as i now the oils is to stop the copper flare binding up with the brass fittings when you tighten it.
Not vaccing the system out will leed to moisture which does react with the gas and oil. This makes the oil acidic (as mentioned above) which will eventually remove the coating on the windings causing the compressor to short out.
This could be 12 months could be 5 years !!

You will normally need a flaring tool to flare the copper.

Good luck

[Goose]

Have been doing A/C work for about 10 years, Never heard of Air sealing oil !!!
Their is a product called leak lock, this is a proper refrigeration sealant for flared fittings or gaskets. As far as i now the oils is to stop the copper flare binding up with the brass fittings when you tighten it.
Not vaccing the system out will leed to moisture which does react with the gas and oil. This makes the oil acidic (as mentioned above) which will eventually remove the coating on the windings causing the compressor to short out.
This could be 12 months could be 5 years !!

Good luck

[jolybean]

Have been doing A/C work for about 10 years, Never heard of Air sealing oil !!!
Their is a product called leak lock, this is a proper refrigeration sealant for flared fittings or gaskets. As far as i now the oils is to stop the copper flare binding up with the brass fittings when you tighten it.
Not vaccing the system out will leed to moisture which does react with the gas and oil. This makes the oil acidic (as mentioned above) which will eventually remove the coating on the windings causing the compressor to short out.
This could be 12 months could be 5 years !!

You will normally need a flaring tool to flare the copper.

Good luck


Hi mate,
where can i buy this flaring tool,copper pipe and insulation?
is this safe to bleed the air out instead of vaccing it?
regards,
jolybean

[Arron]

You wont need a flaring tool for the Mistrals, as long as you dont go over the supplied 5 metres. I spoke to a service guy who said to use linseed or sesame oil as 'air sealing oil'. He said he has seen instructions to use canola oil on the back of similar devices for the same purpose.

The Mistral installation manual makes no reference to a need to vac the units unless going over 5metres in pipe length. Dont know much about it myself, so am not trying to put an opinion one way or the other.

Arron

[occam]

I want to install one of these - this thread has given me valuable info! (I found the thread by googling for "air sealing oil")
But there are more issues:
- on page 17 in the manual, I am supposed to cut a part out of the indoor unit to let the pipes come out: can't I just put them through the wall without anything being exposed below the indoor unit?
- on page 19, I am supposed to install a "double channel drain joint" under the bottom of the outdoor unit: is it necessary, and if so - how do I find such a thing, and how do I fasten it since there is only a round hole in the bottom plate of the unit.

Finally, does anyone know of someone in the Melbourne area that does "commissioning" for a fair price?

[arms]

air sealing oil is in fact light grade oil that is placed on the flared ends of the copper pipe to allow the flaring nut to eb able to spin on the copper to tighten to the correct tension and not to twist the copper out of shape ,pretty simple really !

[jolybean]

could anybody tell me which pipe is the liquid pipe and which one is the gas pipe?
where can i buy a good copper pipe with insulation in Melbourne?
how do i bleed the air out of the system?
thanks,
jolybean

[Arron]

- on page 17 in the manual, I am supposed to cut a part out of the indoor unit to let the pipes come out: can't I just put them through the wall without anything being exposed below the indoor unit?
- on page 19, I am supposed to install a "double channel drain joint" under the bottom of the outdoor unit: is it necessary, and if so - how do I find such a thing, and how do I fasten it since there is only a round hole in the bottom plate of the unit.


You should not need to cut through the side of the unit - that is just one suggestion made for unusual installations. For neatness, you would normally have the pipe go straight through the wall from behind the unit so no pipes are visible.

The outdoor unit will produce a lot of water, especially when in heat mode. If you want to drain this away from the unit you can put in a drain joint - if you dont it will simply pool under the air conditioner - which may or may not matter to you. I didnt bother using one, the water just drips out the hole and into the garden.

It is well worth getting someone to commission these units after you have installed.

Arron

[Johnny-DIY]

I read that in an El-cheapo Akai split system, I ignored it and just tightened up the piping and it seals fine. Put the split system in myself. No need for a vacuum pump, just blew the air out of the pipes with the system gas itself. Worked a treat.

Cheers
Ben

To let the gas blow the air of the pipes - does it matter which order the pipes are connected in? Should it be the end nearer to the indoor unit or the connection to the outdoor unit ? Is it timing critical ?- as in : wait too long and too much gas expelled, connecting it up too quickly causing air to be not fully expelled ?

Cheers
Jono

[Johnny-DIY]

Great threads guys, lots of useful insights.

Bought my Mistral unit some time back and just tried to instlall it recently.

Took me a good part of a day doing it on my own but I'd deliberately worked at an easy pace so the actual elbow grease portion was about 6 hours when you take out the tea-breaks and the ocassional catch up of the Aus Open on tele !

The tricky bit was lifting the indoor unit up near the ceiling and pushing the cable, pipes and drain hose with one hand, holding the unit with the other and balancing on a ladder - good to call on a mate if you can get a favour.

Everything is set now except one problem. I can't seem to remove both the metal caps sealing the pipes on the indoor unit. Applied a heck of a lot of pressure, even rigged a vice up on the roof to help clamp it down whilst using a shifter on the cap - to to avail. Any advise would appreciated as I don't have much skin left on my knuckles ? Both caps seems almost welded in ... any body else had to struggle with them ?

cheers
Jono

ps: too would appreciate anyone knowing who may be happy to commission the system ... I'm checking out with my mates so I'll update if I find somone first.

[ajt]

Keep coing with the nuts, they are quite often excessively tight, a couple of 12 inch shifters will do the trick.

Dont worry about the gas noise when you do crack the nuts, its just dry nitrogen which they put in the evaporator for leak testing it / keeping moisture out in transit.

[Arron]

Everything is set now except one problem. I can't seem to remove both the metal caps sealing the pipes on the indoor unit. Applied a heck of a lot of pressure, even rigged a vice up on the roof to help clamp it down whilst using a shifter on the cap - to to avail. Any advise would appreciated as I don't have much skin left on my knuckles ? Both caps seems almost welded in ... any body else had to struggle with them ?


No, both mine came apart quite easily.

Arron

[Johnny-DIY]

Great threads guys, lots of useful insights.

Bought my Mistral unit some time back and just tried to instlall it recently.

Took me a good part of a day doing it on my own but I'd deliberately worked at an easy pace so the actual elbow grease portion was about 6 hours when you take out the tea-breaks and the ocassional catch up of the Aus Open on tele !

The tricky bit was lifting the indoor unit up near the ceiling and pushing the cable, pipes and drain hose with one hand, holding the unit with the other and balancing on a ladder - good to call on a mate if you can get a favour.

Everything is set now except one problem. I can't seem to remove both the metal caps sealing the pipes on the indoor unit. Applied a heck of a lot of pressure, even rigged a vice up on the roof to help clamp it down whilst using a shifter on the cap - to no avail. Any advise would be appreciated as I don't have much skin left on my knuckles ? Both caps seems almost welded in ... any body else had to struggle with them ?

cheers
Jono

ps: too would appreciate anyone knowing who may be happy to commission the system ... I'm checking out with my mates so I'll update if I find somone first.


Update: had another go today at removing the capping nut with the vice and even applied a little heat on it hoping to expand it a touch; still won't budge. Score so far .... setup both indoor & outdoor units = 6 hrs .... working on removing the capping nut = 2 hrs. Grrrrrrrrr, may have to take to the angle grinder soon ! Incidentally, if I ever get the nut off, do I connect the pipe to the indoor unit first, or to the outdoor unit first, in order to expel the air in the pipes ? I gather from some of the threads that both units are pressured so I'm unsure if there is a difference.

cheers
Jono

[occam]

Update: had another go today at removing the capping nut with the vice and even applied a little heat on it hoping to expand it a touch; still won't budge. Score so far .... setup both indoor & outdoor units = 6 hrs .... working on removing the capping nut = 2 hrs. Grrrrrrrrr, may have to take to the angle grinder soon ! Incidentally, if I ever get the nut off, do I connect the pipe to the indoor unit first, or to the outdoor unit first, in order to expel the air in the pipes ? I gather from some of the threads that both units are pressured so I'm unsure if there is a difference.

cheers
Jono

I had the same problem, made worse by having the ends of the indoor unit pipes in a rather awkward position. Dismounted the indoor unit, pulled back pipes etc, and then used a 300mm wrench (and a smaller one) to loosen the caps.
It works now - VERY nice for the muggy nights we have had in Melbourne. However, I guess I have made almost all mistakes one can do with this installation, including not getting hold of someone to commission the installation. Well, for $600 it could have been done - but $600 for less than an hour is too rich for me.
Can someone tell me how serious these mistakes are:
Opened the return pipe valve before the gas pipe valve.
Stopped letting air/gas out before "the white cloud" (since pressure was disappearing).
Letting the 5m pipes do an extra circle to get the right length outside the wall.
Using a large opening in the brick wall (after a hot water system) to install pipes 'invisibly' from indoor unit to just short of the outdoor unit (to be covered with bricks and an 'inspection door' so that the pipe joints can be accessed).
Letting the outdoor unit stand on pieces of villaboard (on existing concrete slab), just adjusting to get a level position - no fixing to the ground at all.

[Arron]

I think the going rate for just vaccing an installed unit is around $100. I think this is what is meant by 'commissioning'. The $600 is for the full installation. I was quoted $600 too, which I thought would cover a fairly tricky installation, although when I told them what was required in our unique situation they backed out and said they werent perpared to do it.

[Johnny-DIY]

Finally got both capping nuts off. Didn't have to go the drastic measure. WD40, a bitta tapping with hammer and more WD40 did the trick.

Thanks for all the tips.

Cheers
Jono

[lomu]

I have found a company in Brisbane that will come out and commissioning the aircon by vaccing it out and checking your install and will sign your warrnaty card, pretty good value for $88 and you keep your warranty Hello everyone.
i just bought a mss10 today set it up just need the commission. spent all day trying to find somewhere that will do it for less than the unit cost.(last one at kmart $400)

can you pretty please let me know which company it was that you used?
thanks for your time
Pete

[lomu]

sorry the above was directed at <b>tcns</b> can you please let me know who did it for you? thanks :)

[lnt9000]

Very Inspirational, good to see so many doing it.
It's a shame that there is a stumbling block with
the vacuum,you know your all putting installers out of work!:D

[tcns]

Give Ager Airconditioning a call in underwood - that is where I had that price - it was nearly two years ago now so it may have gone up

Tom

[lomu]

thanks for the info

Pete

[fixa24]

Hey guys.
thanks for the info, gave me the confidence to install my 2 units this week, here's what i found.
Got my 2 at Kmart a month ago when they were on special for $299. Thay didn't come with the copper pipe (said so on box, saw some more at bunnings and was the same...??? go figure). Sourced some 1/4" and 3/8" paired pipe WITH insulation for $7.70 per metre! rented a pipe bender and flaring tool from hire place. mounted indoor unit on wall, drilled holes in wall, and bent pipes through to outside. ran drain and cables through. Ran to outdoor unit. i had one mounted on brackets up on the wall (second story), another on the ground.
Had a bit of difficulty flaring the pipes, not knowing how big to flare it etc...
Managed to find an aircon guy who i'd worded up a few days earlier, and he came out the same day i called! gotta be some kinda record. He vac'd both of them, had to redo my flares, and turned the gas on. only charged $120 for nearly 2 hours work.
After i finished the few little things remaining, plugged them in and turned them on. worked sensational!
So i recommend anyone to give them a go themselves. it's not too hard if you've done some diy stuff before.
all up INCLUDING units and parts, it cost me around $700.. not bad for something which would have cost me around $1700 if they'd done it all..:)

[Pedro05]

Hi Everyone, I bought one of the Mistral 1HP units from a local hardware and after reading a couple of informative threads about these units including this one decided to give installing it myself a go.
<O:p
Now everything went fairly well with the install and all the cables and pipes are connected properly as per the instructions but the unit won't heat. It seems to cool ok, it's a bit hard to try it properly as it's cold outside and in anyway but when it's turned on to heat the outside unit starts working but the inside unit doesn't do anything. After a while the inside unit coils develops a healthy covering of ice.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

No I've double checked the instructions, tested all the wire to make sure they're connected right but everything's seems ok. I was thinking I did something wrong with the air evacuation but then it should work at all?<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Does anyone know what the problem might be?

<O:p</O:p
Any help or advice (except the advice to call a professional) will be gratefully accepted.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Cheers Pedro :-)<O:p</O:p

[Arron]

I know this is stating the bleeding obvious, but have you made sure you have chosen the right settings. With our units, we crack the numbers up to about 27degrees celsius (I know that sounds way too high but it keeps the room a constant 20 degrees or so). The icon needed is the little thing like a sun, directly and just a few mm above the 2 of the 27. Works brilliant.

I'm just stating this because the instructions that came with our units were very confusing. I have heard they are better now.

Arron

[Pedro05]

Hi Arron, thanks for posting a reply, I'll give it another try but it does seem strange that the unit starts freezing the indoor coil in heat mode. My first thought was I've mixed up the wiring (the yellow and white wire are very similar in colour) so I tested but everything seems correct.

On the outside unit connections where there is an Allen Key underneath the capping nut how far do you have the Allen Keys unscrewed? My manual doesn't say much about this but a later vesion of the manual on the web says open both fully.

I think I'm going to have to call a Fridgie, I just hope I get a good one as my last couple of tradesmen haven't been the best.

Cheers Pedro :-)