lie down and take it or fight back?

[beejay1]

The following article appeared in the press here today. As youre probably aware its been a very immotive issue over here of late fueled by a farmer who was jailed for shooting a burglar.
Any views, and whats the stance over there re intruders.
beejay1

Shooting a burglar 'may be within law'

DAVID BARRETT


HOUSEHOLDERS in England and Wales were told yesterday that they can use a gun or a knife to defend themselves and their property from intruders - as long as they use only "reasonable force".

Ken Macdonald, QC, the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), set out to clarify the law after the Tories called for a change in legislation to allow anyone facing an intruder to use anything up to "grossly disproportionate" force before being prosecuted. The government has rejected this, arguing people simply needed to be more aware of their rights.

The DPP’s advice makes it clear that even using a weapon such as a knife or a gun would not lead to a householder being charged, as long as their actions were what they "honestly and instinctively" believed was necessary "in the heat of the moment".

[craigb]

Yes that farmer and the burglar got a little bit of press over here too.

As I recall, he shot him (16 yr old?) in the back as he was attempting to flee didn't he?

I'm not a lawyer but I suspect the law on this here would be pretty similar to yours.

That is, if you kill or injure someone in those circumstances you have to be able to prove that you had a genuine fear for your safety.

There was and is an infamous case running here at the moment concerning a security gaurd who shot and killed a person who allegedly bashed her and stole some money she was escorting to a bank.

A search should turn it up as it was discussed in some depth on these forums.

Cheers
Craig

Actually, here's the link:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=10395

[DanP]

as long as they use only "reasonable force".

This is the whole key of the issue. If the person breaks into your house and confronts you with a knife or other weapon which may kill you, you can defend yourself, with lethal force, if you believe it is necessary. But you need to show that you believe that your life was in danger. If it's for something as simple as, "he was getting into my house and was going to steal my stuff" then you are not able ot use lethal force.

Put simply, if you believe your life is in danger, you can. BUT...you will probably have to get up in court and convince a jury that you believed it and give good reasons why.

Dan

[Daddles]

I suspect this law in in place to prevent rednecks from killing anyone who gets in their way, and in that I support it. However, I wonder if it works that way in practice. Still, there aren't many examples of someone killing an intruder and regardless of how ****** off you feel, you do have a responsibility to behave responsibly.

Richard

[vsquizz]

I'm a big fan of Regulation 303 but they shot the Breaker.

A big issue in the West couple of years back was a business owner who discharged a firearm on the basis of protecting his property. He was aquitted of all but a relatively minor firearms charge in the end. (He nearly got them). He was at his wits end and had been vandalised and robbed about five times.

Its a pity the law is so gutless to the point that your life has to be in danger before you can take action against a scumbag who doesn't respect you or your property and does not abide by the law. Grannies get raped.

If a scumbag is coming into my house on a dark night I wont be stopping to ask wether hes going to harm my wife or kids. If hes entering my place hes knowingly breaking the law and will have to suffer the consequences, and probably so will I after I introduce him to my friends Lee & Enfield. Better Dad in gaol than rape and murder in the family:mad: .

If the kid is running away thats a bit rough, some No 6 shot up the backside would have done the trick.

The do gooders will put the scumbags back on the street, (instead of giving them real help) just remember that.

Cheers from a bloke who always wanted to open a boot camp for juvenile scumbags, but the dogooders wouldn't approve of my "training" methods.

[DanP]

Squizz,

I agree, we should be able to kill everyone who puts a rock through our window or smashes our letterbox.:rolleyes: :p

Dan

[gemi_babe]

I remember watching that on 60mins (I think it was...)

He had a torch shone in his eyes, and fired the gun at a figure.

i would of done the same thing if I had the gun. I'm not going to stand around waiting for them to shoot or stab me!!!

Sad thing is, his house deteriorated (sp?) while he did some time. (if its the same bloke) Poor bloke was put away defending himself, his possesions and he lost his house aswell. :(

[bitingmidge]

Squizz,

I agree, we should be able to kill everyone who puts a rock through our window or smashes our letterbox.:rolleyes: :p

Dan Or who slows us up in traffic, or who puts junk mail in our letterbox, or who generally gets on our nerves.

P :rolleyes:
Oh - I forgot the grafitti guys, we should be able to kill them slowly.

[vsquizz]

Dan, you'll remember the thread on my neighbours who got rolled, well they are selling up and on the move. I don't wont people to be shot....well..not many anyway...but they need to be held accountable for their actions. I'm really going to miss my neighbours and I feel very sorry for them but they (with 4 year old daughter) can't stand to live in the place anymore. Where's the justice??

Neighbours are of.. European decent.. I think with blood a little like Zed's:D if you know what I mean. However, if Mr Neighbour had of caught the louts in the act he would of very nearly killed them with his bare hands, in fact I'm pretty sure of it. He would have had to suffer the consequences of his temper. Scumbags who violated his most precious space got next to nothing but another line on their record.

I feel sorry for you blokes sometimes Dan but its a dirty job....

We shouldn't be in the situation in this country, like a lot of other countries, where citizens take the law into their own hands however the current law and availability of law enforcement resources etc etc practically encourages it.

In a nearby suburb recently a vigilante group of citizens got together and beat up one of the local hoons who had been terrorising a particular street in his V8. Result, police found nobody who would talk (not that they wanted to) and the hoon packed up and left. Citizens score 1 hoons score still in millions. The real amazing thing about this story is not what happened, its what didn't happen ie. that the hoon never ran over a kid or crashed etc.

My simple old view is that the basis of common law should be taught in school. Then if you knowingly break the law you knowingly begin to forfeit the rights and protection of the law. For every action there is an equal and opposite action.

Coming to Squizzy's place in the middle of the night??, here's a tip, go to the front door and press the little white button:cool: .

Time for a cuppa, I can feel a reddie coming. Cheers

[vsquizz]

Or who slows us up in traffic, or who puts junk mail in our letterbox, or who generally gets on our nerves.

P :rolleyes:
Oh - I forgot the grafitti guys, we should be able to kill them slowly.
:eek: I wouldn't go that far but those people who you give way to at a round-a-bout and who turn left anyway without indicating.....:mad: ... I vote for the Rattan.;)

Cheers

[silentC]

Don't own a gun but I've got a nice selection of 4x2 in different lengths and species.

We've got a 'family' around these parts. They were 'moved' here from somewhere else where they were 'causing trouble'. It consists of 'parents' (stretching the definition of the term) and about 3 kids of primary school age. Dad stands at the top of the street and watches out while the kids break into houses and local businesses and pinch what he has told them to. When he's not around to give them some direction they just do silly things like setting fire to people's houses and smashing the toilet pans in the public loos.

Everyone knows about them but nothing is ever done because they are too much trouble to deal with. The kids are too young to throw in gaol and the parents are a protected species. So what do you do when you catch them breaking into your house?

We're just waiting for the next relocation. If we could find out where they came from, maybe the locals could give us some tips.

[simon c]

silentc, maybe you should think about moving

[craigb]

Oh - I forgot the grafitti guys, we should be able to kill them slowly.


And the "people" who put their feet on train seats. Hangin's too good for 'em. :(

[silentC]

silentc, maybe you should think about moving
No need, they wont be here forever. Once the department of housing gets enough complaints they'll get relocated. Maybe to Blackburn ;)

[jackiew]

Does the family rent SilentC? we successfully got rid of a " family from hell" by finding out the name of the rental agent and the owner of the home they were living in and bombarding them with phone calls and letters of complaint. Took some detective work to find the owner but it is possible.

Most tenancy agreements will contain a clause about not annoying the neighbours and even if theirs doesn't as soon as the lease is up the owner/rental agent will make the decision that they really don't want the hassle and give them notice.

OK you're only shifting the problem onto somewhere else but you could get lucky - the woman in our family from hell eventually killed herself and I have to say that even with the deficiencies in children's homes/fostering etc her kids probably had more chance in life without her because she was successfully raising kids who most local people would cheerfully watch bleed to death in the street without phoning an amulance.

[simon c]

No need, they wont be here forever. Once the department of housing gets enough complaints they'll get relocated. Maybe to Blackburn ;)

Are there two silentc's on this forum? Cos the other one just put his house up for sale.

[silentC]

Oh I see :o. Unfortunately, if it all goes ahead, we're actually going to be slightly closer to 'the family'. But it's OK because we're going to get a very big and very cranky dog.

[Peter R]

This is the whole key of the issue. If the person breaks into your house and confronts you with a knife or other weapon which may kill you, you can defend yourself, with lethal force, if you believe it is necessary. But you need to show that you believe that your life was in danger. If it's for something as simple as, "he was getting into my house and was going to steal my stuff" then you are not able ot use lethal force.

Put simply, if you believe your life is in danger, you can. BUT...you will probably have to get up in court and convince a jury that you believed it and give good reasons why.

DanWithout going to real detail, my wife and I were looking after the children of a woman that was murdered, in Coffs harbour back in the 60s. The police were still looking for the bloke, and the daughter had seen this person in the house on the night of the murder.

The police released the whereabouts of the children, much to my disgust, but they said that they were keeping my place under close watch.

I ask two CID detectives what I should do if the bloke came looking for the kids, I told them that I owned a shotgun. The answer: "Shoot the bas**** but make sure you kill him so he can't testify against you."

And as far as the close watch went, an unidentified person came to the door during the evening and the cops knew nothing about it...they had gone for dinner, they said. The unidentified person remaind alive!!

Peter R

[DanP]

We're just waiting for the next relocation. If we could find out where they came from, maybe the locals could give us some tips.

Here's a tip. Have every person in the street ring AND write the department of housing on a DAILY basis. Make a complaint every time they do anything wrong. As Jackie said, annoy them into moving them.

Dan

[vsquizz]

Here's a tip. Have every person in the street ring AND write the department of housing on a DAILY basis. Make a complaint every time they do anything wrong. As Jackie said, annoy them into moving them.

Dan
Crappolla, I hate all this moving, where am I gunna be sent next??:D

[silentC]

Does the family rent SilentC?
I'm pretty sure that they get their accomodation provided for free. Come to think of it, the department of housing probably have nothing to do with it, it's probably another department that looks after these guys.

[Peter R]

I would seriously like to know what is the role of the police force? Are they Law enforcement officers or are they crime prevention officers? Maybe it is the role of the police to be a bit of both.

I am trying to come to grips with the fact that the Coffs Harbour police have never spoken to the old bloke with the Vic registered car. I am now convinced that until he runs into someone and they find that he is uninsured the local police don't give a damn about enforcing the law.:mad:

The more I see how the police have to work, even if it is not their fault, I feel that the police are only interested in catching the crim and not stopping someone from becoming one.http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon5.gif

That is my opinion

Peter R.

[dazzler]

I have three work colleagues who have shot criminals. One dead, one paralysed and one just p*****ed off.


Two out the three colleagues are now seriously screwed up in the mind!

One of the issues is as much as many say "id just shoot em" the reality is that unless you are mentally prepared for killing someone then you will be seriously effected by the incident.

Something REALLY bad would need to be occurring for your mind to later justify the killing.

Oh and when someone gets shot it aint like the movies. Particularly when the dying takes some time.

cheers

dazzler