Clear grain filler

[Arron]

Hi folks. Does anyone know of a clear (ie transparent) woodgrain filler. Something like this would be perfect CrystaLac Wood Grain Filler, Wood Grain Filler, Wood Finishes, Wood Glues & Parts - McFeely's (http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/CPF-2530/CrystaLac-Wood-Grain-Filler) . I havent been able to find this in Aus. Any suggestions ?

I know a common suggestion is white shellac and talc, but I've tried it and its not suitable for my use.

cheers
Arron

[ian]

Have you tried Wattyl's wood grain filler?
It's rather messy to apply -- you apply it with a spatchular or squeezgy and rub off the excess (just before it dries) with a hessian rag -- but the one time I used it it worked a treat.

Google threw up this FILLING THE PORES OF WOOD (http://www.antiquerestorers.com/Articles/SAL/filpore.htm)

[Arron]

My recollection of that stuff is that its not clear but a muddy brown colour - or are we thinking of different things ?

cheers
Arron

[mic-d]

My recollection of that stuff is that its not clear but a muddy brown colour - or are we thinking of different things ?

cheers
Arron


I thought that too, that and it is now a discontinued line.:(

Just straight superblonde shellac would do. Apply several coats, rub back to bare where just the pores remain shiny, apply several more coats, rub back as before, repeat until the pores are filled and the sanding knocks the shine off everywhere. Slow but effective.

Cheers
Michael

[Arron]

Actually, Michael, thats what I'm trying to get away from. All that sanding. I know it might sound odd but there are things I would rather be doing then sanding.

And all those coats ! There has to be a better way. I would have thought that it would not be a difficult task for a talented chemist to come up with something which fills the pores in one coat, allows me to wipe off the excess, and carry on with life.

cheers
Arron

[mic-d]

Actually, Michael, thats what I'm trying to get away from. All that sanding. I know it might sound odd but there are things I would rather be doing then sanding.

And all those coats ! There has to be a better way. I would have thought that it would not be a difficult task for a talented chemist to come up with something which fills the pores in one coat, allows me to wipe off the excess, and carry on with life.

cheers
Arron

But fine woodwork is about taking your time and going on a journey with it. Fine woodwork is not about using a chemist so you can cheat in one step. Heaven forbid!

Cheers
Michael

[Arron]

But fine woodwork is about taking your time and going on a journey with it. Fine woodwork is not about using a chemist so you can cheat in one step. Heaven forbid!

Cheers
Michael

I'm not interested in fine woodworking - not right now anyway. I actually just want a clear grain filler and the quickest possible solution to a problem.

Cheers
Arron

[mic-d]

I'm not interested in fine woodworking - not right now anyway. I actually just want a clear grain filler and the quickest possible solution to a problem.

Cheers
Arron

Sorry Arron I forgot the winking smiley, it was tongue in cheek! The only thing I can think of to do what you want is casting resin (not that I'm recommending it) I wouldn't give up on shellac yet, try a 3lb cut and you could use a fine cabinet scraper rather than sanding.

Cheers
Michael

[Arron]

I tried casting resin, but found it very hard. To sand it off you need to go to power sanding on a fairly coarse grit, then work down through the papers. Too aggressive and too much risk of damage.

I also tried shellac with talc a lot. I found a couple of things that put me off. The main one is that shellac coats the interstacies (sp?) to the same depth as it does the pores. In other words it fills the hills just as it fills the valleys. This mean if you apply 10 coats you have 10 coats in the pores (which may fill the pores, if you are lucky) but you have 10 coats on the bits between the pores, and this is what you are required to sand away. If you contrast that to the Wattyl wood grain filler that Ian mentioned, it fills the pores with one swipe, then you wipe it off the interstacies with hessian. Then perhaps one very light sand to get any bits the hessian missed and you're done. Perfect, except its brown and I want clear.

A bit of an apology might be in order here. I feel a bit like I'm just posting problems for the opportunity to knock people's solutions down. Thats not true at all. I just feel there are solutions out there that I'm not getting to - though I know from past experience that the solution is always here somewhere in the collective wisdom of this forum.

I'm also baffled why there are several products of this nature (clear grain fillers) both available and widely used the US but I cant find any here.

Arron

[mic-d]

I tried casting resin, but found it very hard. To sand it off you need to go to power sanding on a fairly coarse grit, then work down through the papers. Too aggressive and too much risk of damage.

I also tried shellac with talc a lot. I found a couple of things that put me off. The main one is that shellac coats the interstacies (sp?) to the same depth as it does the pores. In other words it fills the hills just as it fills the valleys. This mean if you apply 10 coats you have 10 coats in the pores (which may fill the pores, if you are lucky) but you have 10 coats on the bits between the pores, and this is what you are required to sand away. If you contrast that to the Wattyl wood grain filler that Ian mentioned, it fills the pores with one swipe, then you wipe it off the interstacies with hessian. Then perhaps one very light sand to get any bits the hessian missed and you're done. Perfect, except its brown and I want clear.

A bit of an apology might be in order here. I feel a bit like I'm just posting problems for the opportunity to knock people's solutions down. Thats not true at all. I just feel there are solutions out there that I'm not getting to - though I know from past experience that the solution is always here somewhere in the collective wisdom of this forum.

I'm also baffled why there are several products of this nature (clear grain fillers) both available and widely used the US but I cant find any here.

Arron

I see what you're saying. Could you post a link to any of those clear fillers from the US, I didn't know such a beast existed. and I don't think any apology is needed...:)

Cheers
Michael

[Arron]

Well theres Crystallac which I mentioned above - CrystaLac Wood Grain Filler, Wood Grain Filler, Wood Finishes, Wood Glues & Parts - McFeely's (http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/CPF-2530/CrystaLac-Wood-Grain-Filler)

and also Target HSF5100 - HSF5100 Clear Grain Filler & Glaze, Water Based grain Filler, general Water Based Wood Finishes, Waterborne Finishes, Water Based Finishes (http://www.targetcoatings.com/shop/products/HSF_High_Solids_Grain_Filler_Glaze_Clear_32oz-78-0.html)

this photo says it all - see, no endless coating/sanding, just trowel on, scrape off, a light sand, then go fishing.

Arron

[ian]

My recollection of that stuff is that its not clear but a muddy brown colour - or are we thinking of different things ?

cheers
Arron
The same stuff. It can be tinted with spirit stains. Last time I used it I gave it a soft pink hue.

I'm not sure why you want a clear grain filler. Normally a grain filler is used to either totally hide the grain so that you can build a glass like pianio finish, or to bring out the grain -- in which case the grain cfiller would normally be a little to a lot darker than the underlying wood.

[ian]

Arron, I'm currently restricted to communicating via an android tablet -- which means copying and pasting links is difficult.

However, if you google "recipe for timber grain filler" you should find a couple of suggestions on how to fill pores using danish oil or boiled linseed oil -- sanding as the oil thickens.

[mic-d]

The same stuff. It can be tinted with spirit stains. Last time I used it I gave it a soft pink hue.

I'm not sure why you want a clear grain filler. Normally a grain filler is used to either totally hide the grain so that you can build a glass like pianio finish, or to bring out the grain -- in which case the grain cfiller would normally be a little to a lot darker than the underlying wood.

It's a moot point Ian, the Wattyl product is discontinued as I discovered last time I went to order it.
It is quite a valid choice to use a clear grain filler if you want to both achieve a glass-like finish and not hide or accentuate the grain. Luthiers do it all the time. I did it on my cutlery box where I needed a glass finish on a raked surface that caught the light but didn't want to alter the NGR colour. I achieved it by using shellac as a grain filler, but obviously arron want to pursue less labour intensive options.

Cheers
Michael

[jimbur]

A recipe I read somewhere - not evern sure if they mean mineral or real turpentine.
one part spar varnish
two parts turpentine.
mix in sufficient powdered silica to make it a custard-like consistency.
Apply, wipe off across the grain and let dry before sanding.
Cheers,
Jim

WARNING - Interesting Jim, but please if anyone decides to try this make sure you have industrial-strength dust extraction. Have a read about silicosis here Silicosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis)

[auscab]

Hi folks. Does anyone know of a clear (ie transparent) woodgrain filler. cheers
Arron

Hi Arron,
the guitar and ukulele builders are using epoxy, they spread across the grain with a credit card, let it go off,sand,then do a second application sand.
then start on their chosen finish.

you would want to do a search in the musical instrument section
MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS - Woodwork Forums (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f98/)
and you should find some interesting reading.
Rob

[Arron]

A recipe I read somewhere - not evern sure if they mean mineral or real turpentine.
one part spar varnish
two parts turpentine.
mix in sufficient powdered silica to make it a custard-like consistency.
Apply, wipe off across the grain and let dry before sanding.
Cheers,
Jim

Interesting Jim, but please if anyone decides to try this make sure you have industrial-strength dust extraction. Have a read about silicosis here Silicosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis)

cheers
Arron

[Arron]

The same stuff. It can be tinted with spirit stains. Last time I used it I gave it a soft pink hue.

I'm not sure why you want a clear grain filler. Normally a grain filler is used to either totally hide the grain so that you can build a glass like pianio finish, or to bring out the grain -- in which case the grain cfiller would normally be a little to a lot darker than the underlying wood.

Hi Ian, imagine you have a surface made of alternating 3 and 6mm strips of black and white veneer. Both veneer timbers are rather open-pored, and there are tiny gaps between (which I suppose shouldnt be there but they are). Use a black filler and it does a good job of the black, but gets into the pores of the white timber and looks terrible. Use a white filler and it gets in the pores of the black and looks pretty bad too. Use a neutral coloured filler and both just end up looking muddy, especially the white (silver ash or rock maple).

Larger gaps are not a problem, I just choose an adjacent colour and fill with Timbermate, masking off the contrasting timber so as not to allow contamination - so its the pores and really tiny gaps which are the problem.

However I"m thinking that a transparent filler should allow both timbers to keep their natural colour and the whole thing to keep the crisp/sharp look that I'm aiming for.

further:
using one of those solutions into which you sand the surface and allow the sanding dust/slurry to fill the pores is going to have the same effect of making one of the various surfaces muddy.

cheers
Arron

[Arron]

Hi Arron,
the guitar and ukulele builders are using epoxy, they spread across the grain with a credit card, let it go off,sand,then do a second application sand.
then start on their chosen finish.

you would want to do a search in the musical instrument section
MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS - Woodwork Forums (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f98/)
and you should find some interesting reading.
Rob

Interesting. My first thought when reading this is that it was a bad idea because I've used a lot of epoxy in boat building and I know its pretty hard to sand. However, if luthiers use it then maybe its worth a try because those guys are known for their delicate work.

I think epoxy might be better then casting resin which is polyester and didnt really work well because of the aforementioned filling the hills while filling the valleys thing.

I think the key will be to fill the valleys, then squeegy it off before it sets on the hills, to minimize the destructive effect of sanding very fine veneers. I have some Bote-coat marine epoxy left over from my last build. I wonder if that would do the job ? I'll definitely give it a try this weekend and let you know the result.

cheers
Arron

[jimbur]

Interesting Jim, but please if anyone decides to try this make sure you have industrial-strength dust extraction. Have a read about silicosis here Silicosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis)
cheers
Arron
Thanks Arron. I've edited my post to include your warning.
Cheers,
Jim

[mic-d]

If you could find a source of ground glass or glass microspheres, that would be safer than crystalline silica.

Cheers
Michael

[A Duke]

Hi there,
Feast Watson sanding sealer (interior clear sealer for open grain timber) claims to do what you want except it is not water based.
Regards

[ian]

Hi Ian, imagine you have a surface made of alternating 3 and 6mm strips of black and white veneer. Both veneer timbers are rather open-pored, and there are tiny gaps between (which I suppose shouldnt be there but they are). Use a black filler and it does a good job of the black, but gets into the pores of the white timber and looks terrible. Use a white filler and it gets in the pores of the black and looks pretty bad too. Use a neutral coloured filler and both just end up looking muddy, especially the white (silver ash or rock maple).

Larger gaps are not a problem, I just choose an adjacent colour and fill with Timbermate, masking off the contrasting timber so as not to allow contamination - so its the pores and really tiny gaps which are the problem.

However I"m thinking that a transparent filler should allow both timbers to keep their natural colour and the whole thing to keep the crisp/sharp look that I'm aiming for.

further:
using one of those solutions into which you sand the surface and allow the sanding dust/slurry to fill the pores is going to have the same effect of making one of the various surfaces muddy.

cheers
ArronI suppose one option would be to seal the surface with blond shellac, then apply a couple of coats of thinned polyurathane as the pore filler.
After a few coats you shoul be able to cut the surface back to flat with a powered sander without cutting into the veneer

Though the idea of applying clear epoxy or gelcoat with a plastic scraper has appeal.

[Arron]

Though the idea of applying clear epoxy or gelcoat with a plastic scraper has appeal.

Doesnt it just. So why does everything to do with wood finishing have to sound like a trip back to the 18th century ??

Coat, recoat, sand, coat, sand, coat, sand, coat, sand, coat, sand .....