old 1930's floor dressing what is it ?

[sandant]

Hi
i am currently sanding an old floor in a 1930's queenslander, it has around the outside of the floor arounf the walls a black polish type subsatance. the best way i can describe it is boot polish.
It has been put right around the loungeroom floor starting at the walls and goes inwards about 500-1000 mm leaving the centre untouched.

It looks like it was used as protection around the outside of the loungeroom floor and a large mat placed in the centre of the floor.

as mentioned i am trying to sand this floor (was going to use a belt sander due to a little bora in the wood however it will take me a week to do at the rate it comes off using 40grit)

my main question is what is it ? when i sand it using a respriator as protection, the fumes get through and after 5-10 mins i get a rotten headache i mean a really bad one.

my wife is currently pregnate and i have sent her to her sisters for the weekend as i dont think she should be exposed to this. or me for that matter.

fire away ive had this question in the back of my mind for yonks!

[blt]

Hmm... it could be creosote or coal-tar creosote which was commonly used for preserving timber & repelling insects. Is it sticky, or is it a flat coating?

Here's some health info regarding creosote: http://www.nohsc.gov.au/OHSInformation/NOHSCPublications/fulltext/docs/h4/01997cre.htm

edit: Creosote has a very distinctive smell... does the floor smell of anything?

[sandant]

its a flat black i would not say sticky at all imagine if you rubbed boot polish into wood and let it sit for 80 years in an interior environment.

[craigb]

I'd say that it would be Black Japan.

This was the traditional way of treating timber floors in that age house.

You are correct, it was intended as a border around a rug ,that's why they didn't bother doing the whole floor.

When we bought our current place, the previous ownwers had painted decking paint over the black japan (and the entire floor) . :eek:

You should have heard the bitching from the floor sander (not me btw). :rolleyes:

[sandant]

just read that page that was linked and thats exatcly the symtoms im feel ing right now the buning of the eyes vertigo and a headache, this stuff really stinks too,
if thats what your floor sander encountered then i wouldnt blame his bitchin i better go clean this stuff up and wash it offa me before it gets to bad, keen to read up more about this stuff must be pretty bad gear fot the recomendations on the webpage you posted.

[bitingmidge]

Yep, it's Black Japan without a shadow of a doubt.

Floor sanders really love it! Hire a floor sander (the edger type - whatever they are called) and use lots of fresh paper.

Sorry.

P
:rolleyes: :)

[craigb]

just read that page that was linked and thats exatcly the symtoms im feel ing right now the buning of the eyes vertigo and a headache, this stuff really stinks too,
if thats what your floor sander encountered then i wouldnt blame his bitchin i better go clean this stuff up and wash it offa me before it gets to bad, keen to read up more about this stuff must be pretty bad gear fot the recomendations on the webpage you posted.

That wasn't me it was blt's link.

I still think it's more likely to be black japan than creosote though.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to live in a room that had fresh creosote in it and I suspect neither would the original owners.

[ozwinner]

Yep, it's Black Japan without a shadow of a doubt.

:rolleyes: :)
That would be A'hso honkey, wouldnt it.

Al :D

[sandant]

That wasn't me it was blt's link.

I still think it's more likely to be black japan than creosote though.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to live in a room that had fresh creosote in it and I suspect neither would the original owners.

yeah sorry i did know that. my bad written comunication skillz:-@

Is it possible that these two things b/japan and ceraatote can be the same things ?

reading about ceratote they say
pasted from webpage

In Australia, creosote is produced by distilling coal tar derived as a by-product of metallurgical coke ovens. Technically, creosote is a low-boiling distillate of coal tar. The chemical constituents of creosote are numerous. It is estimated that a complex mixture of 1,000 compounds may be present, mostly in trace amounts, many being of the aromatic series.

The major use of creosote is as a timber preservative against fungi, termites and marine borers. Timber preservation is an example of a work activity which requires special attention when assessing exposure.

[outback]

I'm with Craig, whilst a popular preservative for timber,I'd doubt very much anyone would use creosote indoors. The original part of my house had, what i assume is black japan, in three rooms, when it was renovated the first time, the rug was a tad different size, so decking paint was added. When I renovated I thanked them all for their diligent work in making my life a little more hellish.

[sandant]

mm ive done quiet a substantial search on google for this stuff but nothing of a mention other than a bird avery company advertising black japan coated hinges?
can anyone tell me a little about it and what health risks my family may be exopsed to. ATM im playing it real safe as said , just the smell of this stuff i think if enouth warning that its not good for you.

also anyone better suggestions to removing it, my plan for now is to hire a floor sander tomorrow and hit it, im still a little worried about opening up a maze of bora tracks though, but its maybe an option to use the belt in the centre and lay the floor sander up over that patch concerns for that thouhg you get dig marks where you return the sander to the floor.

any floor sanding tips would help i have done a small floor out the back in an old deck with much different timber though it turned out good considering the condition of the timber but i still ended up with some dig marks aroung the edges,

a few questions

do you guys think the edge sanders could do the whole floor or strictly keep edge sander to the edge ? ( i can use the belt sander for the edge if thats the case)

i have a kitchen floor to do to but the belt sander is doing fine where there is no black japan

a penny for your thoughts !

[craigb]

No. Black Japan and creosote are two entirely different animals.

Before treated pine, all power poles used to have their bases painted with creosote because it is so good a detering termites.

Of course, like most things, it doesn't last forever so would have to be re-applied fro time to time.

If you do a search on this board for Black Japan, you will find a recipe for how to make it.

It's been around for centuries and originated in Japan, hence the name.

[craigb]

mm ive done quiet a substantial search on google for this stuff but nothing of a mention other than a bird avery company advertising black japan coated hinges?
can anyone tell me a little about it and what health risks my family may be exopsed to. ATM im playing it real safe as said , just the smell of this stuff i think if enouth warning that its not good for you.

also anyone better suggestions to removing it, my plan for now is to hire a floor sander tomorrow and hit it, im still a little worried about opening up a maze of bora tracks though, but its maybe an option to use the belt in the centre and lay the floor sander up over that patch concerns for that thouhg you get dig marks where you return the sander to the floor.

any floor sanding tips would help i have done a small floor out the back in an old deck with much different timber though it turned out good considering the condition of the timber but i still ended up with some dig marks aroung the edges,

a few questions

do you guys think the edge sanders could do the whole floor or strictly keep edge sander to the edge ? ( i can use the belt sander for the edge if thats the case)

i have a kitchen floor to do to but the belt sander is doing fine where there is no black japan

a penny for your thoughts !

My one tip would be to pay a pro to do it for you.

Unless you are a masochist, don't try and do a floor with a belt sander.

If you are determined to diy, then hire a proper floor sanding machine.

And an edger.

[sandant]

its more a question of paying a pro to do it and also their avalability
i have been off work renovationg for the past 4 months a real lerning curve for a financial consultant let me tell you !

anyway i am running out of cash and have to get my butt down to nowra to start work again in the fresh produce industry
a pro would cost me i guess about 1000$ plus and from recent exp be booked out untill around feb i cant even get an eleci round to move my power box to put a deck on untill feb there is a slight chance he will get round ealier but im not counting onit.

oh heres some pics of my work so far. im quiet proud of it considering a have done it all without an ounce of help and the only power tool i owned untill 4 moths ago was a ryobi cordless drill that cost about 30 bucks 8 years ago.
you guys have helped a with advice and info from the site though maybe not as far as posted questions go but he information archived here is brilliant oh and a mate helped me get the lean out of the carport.

[craigb]

Well you have been a busy bee haven't you? :)

It's looking good.

It's a long way between Toowoomba and Nowra though :confused:

[sandant]

thanks
as i said im quiet proud of my work (so far!)

not sure if im able to go off topic here as i havent been around here that long. (in this forum)

but nowra as you may know it being from syd not to far away.
we have a family business there and the old man is wanting me to come back and do some real work we have two fresh produce reatil outlets there and a wholesale nowra fruit market (hence the mellon bin avatar) if your ever in the area drop in make you a coffee and some watermellon i did do a 5yr stint for him before but had to get out and see the real work force ended up toowoomba brought a house here and doing it up, had to get out of the finance industry as it ripps people off really badly
if anyone ever needs sound financial advice give me a pm or use a bank on your own accord dont use a 3rd party you will be taken for a ride trust me on this.
also be wary of car dealers (sorry if there are some here but you will know i am talking the truth car dealers come under the 3rd party im talking about as well they will in some cases have you dealing with a 4th party it gets worse for you then( bset advice i can give if the banks wont give you $ you shouldnt have it !).

i will look at the edger tomorrow when i go and get the big sander ive never seen one so if it looks like it will do the job i require it for ill get it next week , between building the new front deck and installing the kitchen.

[craigb]

not sure if im able to go off topic here as i havent been around here that long. (in this forum)



Umm, it's practically compulsary to go off topic on this board, as you will find out if you decide to stick around. :D

PS
Is the upper case key broken on your PC? :D

[sandant]

PS
Is the upper case key broken on your PC? :D

i have a mac we have a licence to not use upper case:-P
or considering the mac thing it probably is broken or is missing or isnt compatible with the forum, or if i use it my computer will crash.

they are all likely, and good to know about off topic thing, cause in some forums you can have the forum police knocking at your door to take you away if you steap out of line ( the other day they came round i had to hide so they took my dog instead but they have to feed his insasable appitite now so i got the upper hand on them)

post edit- it worked 5 times !

[Harry72]

my main question is what is it ? when i sand it using a respriator as protection, the fumes get through and after 5-10 mins i get a rotten headache i mean a really bad one.
What type of respirator are you using? Not one of those usless paper/fiber masks with the bendy thing for your nose... they are no good for anything!
Also to get the best out of a face mask respirator like a sundstrom/protector safety you need to be clean shaved as facial stubble decreases the effectiveness heaps...

[sandant]

its a proper filter one however the clean shaven thing could be a soloution!
also the filter could do with changing come to think of it as well

ok here is the info on the filter as im no expert on them it says
AUS P2 multi purpose filter for use with single filter respriator
says approved for use with
organic vapours (with a boiling point of >65c) and dusts , pollens, mists, fumes and nuisance odours.

nuisance odours ?

and has msa on the rubber bit if i remember correctly i did invset in a mid to well priced one as i used it initally to sand the house, with concerns of lead paint.

but i havent shaven for a week so that maybe a cause. i should change the filter to and see how that goes .

[markharrison]

I would definitely have a shave. Passive respirators will not work well with facial hair.

Powered respirators force the air through the filter so there will be internal positive pressure which means that a tight seal is not necssary.

Having used a passive respirator and now being the owner of the Triton respirator (even though it is not the best there is) I would never go back.

[rsser]

Yeah, for best results you need an edge sander and a floor sander. Floor sander doesn't get close enough. If you can, remove your architraves and then see if your floor sander does.

And I'd be trying out some paint stripper or a heat gun before sanding - with safety gear. Or even a Skarsten scraper (aka bench hook) and see how far that gets you. Depends on how cupped your boards are.

Bugger of a job - I only had one room to do.

[markharrison]

If you want to follow Ern's excellent advice and remove the skirting boards, the best tool is one of those Japanese renovator's cats paw bars with the broad thin edge. See the lower example from the attached pic.

Before you pry off the skirting board, cut the dried paint with a Stanley type utility knife. That will minimise if not eliminate any paint tearing off up the wall.

Any nails still stuck in the skirting board can be pulled out or nipped off with nail nippers. The best of these that I have found are the genuine Crescent brand ones. Pulling or cutting the nails minimises the disturbance to the existing paint layers on the outer surface of the skirting board.

Putting the skirting board back on again means that unless you are very good at swinging a hammer, there is the possibility of overstrike and damaging the paint. If you don't own one already, you can buy or hire a brad nailer or even better, a 23 guage pin nailer. The brad nailer is cheaper but leaves a bigger hole. I wouldn't even bother filling in pin nailer holes.

Put a piece of masking tape where you are going to put the brad nail in. Shoot the brad then add the filler before lifting the tape.

If you have a paint match, you can add some paint to the filler to better disguise the brad holes. Try this on some scrap first though.

[rsser]

Thanks Mark.

Years ago I bought an Australian made pinch bar v like B in Mark's photo - no idea who or what now, only it had a fork in it that you could line up with the nail behind the architrave and then cut the nail through with a few good wallops. Very therapeutic! Then punch out the remaining nail once the board was off.

Have to confess refixing the board with countersunk screws and a bit of filler.

[sandant]

hi guys
thanks for all the info its been great.

I hired the floor sander on saturday just gone and returned it yesterday about 1 pm, it did a good job and removed the black japan without to much trouble, however you soon find the nails that were unseen and blew 3 pads to begin with at about 9$ a pop its not cheep.

anyway the skirting had allready been removed (most of it) and is going to be replaced also the walls are being repainted to, so thnkfully i wont have to worry about some of the advice, considering that people can refer back to these posts its all good info.

The mask did work better with a clean shave and the bigger sander didnt seem to create that foul smell the belt sander was making.

As mentioned there are quiet a few places where the bords were uneven and tomorrow is the task of doing that, not looking forward to that i tell you, its actually handy i have a wall out where a kitchen bench will go so that was a really good place to start the contact with the sander to the floor.

compared to my last effort there were hardly any dig marks .

Im going to try to use the belt sander for the edges and where the boards are warped i have it a small go today and it seemed to do the job ok but i can see it will be hard work anyway
thought i would throw in a couple of pics its only 1/2 done in these maybe i can post the finished job when its finished (unless i bugger it if i do ill take some of my mates floor he had it done by a pro and say its my job! kidding)

oh the black pile of crap on the floor is some old lino that stuck to the floor really badly if took me 3 hours to get it off an area less than 1m sq.

[markharrison]

Warning! I wasn't aware of this until recently but you would be surprised where asbestos was used. One of these was in lino floor tiles. I don't believe it is much of a stretch to say that it could have been in rolls of linoleum as well based on that information.

Hopefully I am completely wrong!

When you say that the skirting boards are to be replaced, I assume that this is because these are either not worth salvaging for some reason (e.g. too much paint, nothing exciting to begin with...)? It's just that in Queenslanders that I have known (I come from Nambour originally) the skirting boards were usually quite tall and more decorative. OTOH, I have seen them with rather narrow cheap skirting boards as well but I suspect that these only occurred in cheaper homes or were fitted later during a "modernisation". I would be interested to hear why that path was chosen.

[sandant]

hi,
I know its been a couple of years since this post was written however to not leave questions unanswered, i replaced the skirting because it was the budget type. I did however find some high skirting that did the job very well. The skirting used was from recycled flooring that was put through some kind of wood shping device to give a very nice patterned finish. I have i whole album on the web of the entire renovation from start to end the images could show more detail but i feel i shows how the home evolved over the years work i put into it.

We sold this home 1.5 yrs ago and made a neat profit(mostly attributed to the raise in real estate over that time) However all up it was worth the effort to do the reno i estimate we made an extra 30- 40 k after expences by doing this.

link here to reno gallery (if anyone want more detailed images of the floor i have plenty just contact me.

http://www.rukhsanaphotography.com/image_gallerys/reno/index.html

[Larry McCully]

I'd say that it would be Black Japan.

This was the traditional way of treating timber floors in that age house.

You are correct, it was intended as a border around a rug ,that's why they didn't bother doing the whole floor.

When we bought our current place, the previous ownwers had painted decking paint over the black japan (and the entire floor) . :eek:

You should have heard the bitching from the floor sander (not me btw). :rolleyes:

Yes you are correct, it is called black japan. IT is a oil based shellack type of product, it was used extensivly in homes from then1950s and before. It was a rageing fashon to paint on this stuff about 400mm all the way around the room. They then placed a carpet sq or lino in the midle of the room. I thing it also would have been a cost saver, because you didnt need a carpet layer, you could do it yourself. Over the years i have sanded hundreds of these floors. The best way is to use 16 grit sand paper on the sanding machine. or take the time in scraping the crystlised top layer. it comes of easy when it is done cold, but as soon as it is heated, it melts and sticks to the paper. it can realy test your attitude. But it can come of, and some times will stain the floor and leave a faint tinge in the floor. this type of finish is seen australia wide, from north qld to here in syd and beyond. there are thousands of old homes with it.

[sandant]

Every thing you said i 100% agree with, it did leave a tinge in areas and the hotter it got the harder it was to remove. Due to my lack of intelligence i only hired the big sander for 1 day, the other 5 days it took to sand was with a belt sander on my hands and knees.
the main problem i encountered was that the flooring had bora trails in them, i didnt want to go too hard and have the tracks everywhere, my mate had his done by a pro he ended up with bora tracks all over it looked a little shabby, i feel the work i did paid off as the floor was clean and very smooth. The belt sander really brought out the grain in the hoop pine.