New house wiring

[Dan_574]

Hi all, Im really annoyed at the moment I dont know with who myself or the elctrician I got to do my new house. Im an owner builder who started in Feb and we moved in in July. I got an electrician to do the house, all passed all legal. I got an air con put in today 2.5hp split system. The sparkie who put it in said we are right on the limit of amps available for the size of the mains(16mm), I think we have about 3amps left. He said that he advises people in my area(semi rural) who are on an acre or more with a fair sized house and no natural gas to run two 16mm mains so they can add things later on. Now that we are at our limit any future electrical items that we want to add we will have to fork out $1200+ to add new mains. This really annoys me. Like I said I don't know if I'm more annoyed at myself for not researching better or the original sparky. Can anyone tell me how I calculate the total amps on the house.

[glock40sw]

G'day.
We built our place about 4 years ago.

At the time I decided that I wanted 3 phase power for the shed when it got built.
We had a 3 phase ducted Air-con installed.
Now the house has the lights running on 1 phase.
Half the power points running on the 2nd phase and the other 1/2 running on the 3rd phase.
Future expansion has power to burn.

Our neighbour who built at the same time, installed a 1 phase ducted air-con. He doesn't have enough spare power to even run a beer fridge.

A little homework goes a long way.
Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[journeyman Mick]

Dan,
Amps x Volts = Watts, or
Watts/Volts = Amps

It's simple enough to add up the wattage of lights and most appliances should have their ratings somewhere on an ID sticker or plate. Of course, not all appliances or lights will be on at once, but then again motors and compressors have an initial high starting current. Someone here can probably tell you what sort of extra allowance needs to be made for this, otherwise the sparky you use should be able to tell you.

Mick

[ozwinner]

Maybe your sparkie was trying to keep costs down.

I did a job years ago for a woman, and she kept telling me every day I was there ( I was there for 2 weeks ) " keep the costs down" etc.

Come the end of the job she refused to pay me half of the money, which was the total of all the materials used BTW.
When I asked why. she said wanted the job doing cheaply, rather than a cheap job. :confused:
Im still confused, and that is about 20 years after I done the job.

I didnt get paid, but I harased here through solicitors, and dept collecters for years.

Al :(

[jackiew]

I think my sledgehammer would have had an outing - she could have her materials ( in pieces) but not the fruits of the labour ....

is there a symbol that tradesmen put outside houses warning of bad customers the same way that tramps used put symbols outside places that were good for a meal.

[Sturdee]

Jackiew,

Giving your sledgehammer an outing might work in the good old U.K. :eek: but here that would be criminal damage. Not highly recommended as the authorities here really frown on that kind of behaviour. :(

Anything built on the land becomes part thereof. For instance if a builder builts a home on the wrong land that is bad luck for the builder and good luck for the owner, who does not have to compensate the builder or allow him to remove it.

Thus harassing her through solicitors, and dept collecters for years is the only way to get your money.


Peter.

[Rookie]

Dan, a sparkie can loop test the mains, on each phase if there's more than one. They just have a meter that surrounds the main wire coming in, or each phase if there's more than one, and provides a reading. As Journeyman Mick said though, you won't have all switches on at once, but if you can have "typical" number of lights on, and then get a reading each time you turn on big ticket items (air con, kettles, toasters, power tools etc) then you should see on the meter what they contribute as they go on and off and get an idea where you are in relation to the maximum. Don't forget to wait for the draw you can't control to come on as well like fridges and electric hot water systems. They draw significant amounts for short periods of time.

Have a look at the tags on appliances to see what draw they quote.Large home entertainment systems draw a lot, but a smaller stereo might not draw much at all. Toasters and kettles can draw round 2000 - 2400 watts each which is pushing 10 amps so use Micks formula's to get an idea. The quoted draw on an appliance will be the maximum it will draw though, and they will often draw less. We often use a toaster and a kettle for instance on the same powere point and they would blow a breaker if they both drew 10 amps, so I'm sure they don't typically.

[jackiew]

Jackiew,

Thus harassing her through solicitors, and dept collecters for years is the only way to get your money.

Peter.

what would the law say if I leafleted all the local tradesmen advising that I am in dispute with Ms X about non payment of a bill and asking anyone else who is having similar problems to contact my solicitors with a view to joint action. She wouldn't get anyone else working for her for a LONG time.

[echnidna]

Verrry smart Jackiew.

[echnidna]

Another way is to start bankruptcy proceedings agin her

[Dan_574]

I dont know exactly what jackiew is trying to say.

[Sturdee]

Jackiew,

You have raised my pet hate being our legal system. This legal system which we inherited from England and allegedly improved by our homegrown pollies, mainly as a result of vested interests or noisy minorities, has nothing to do with justice.

Thus our legal system is only concerned with legalities not what is right and proper only with the law as enacted. Let me give some examples.

So a criminal will go free if he can prove that some junior police officer made a technical mistake. A thief robbing a purse from an old lady might be convicted and sent to jail but the corporate criminals that steal the life savings of thousands of old ladies will walk free because juries can’t understand the complexities of the case. A jury can’t be told that a criminal has prior convictions as this may influence their decision.

A person can incorporate himself into a company, being the only shareholder and director, and then through the company fleece people of their money and then have the company placed in liquidation and walk away free with his own assets intact. If he then interposes some trusts and other companies then he is really laughing and our legal system helps him to do it.

And then when a robber, whilst stealing from you, breaks a leg on your premises he can sue you. And what about the criminal taxpayer who got a tax deduction for the loss of previous stolen money. And Derryn Hinch, a Melbourne radio commentator was sentenced to nine month jail for having publicly named and identified a Priest who was a pedophile.

Tonight we heard that a criminal, who had escaped from jail a number of years ago, will be let free because the prison he escaped from had never been legally gazetted as such. These are some of the things why we have a legal system and not a justice system.

Given the above the idea of letterboxing other local tradesmen advising that you are in dispute with Ms X about non payment of a bill and asking anyone else who is having similar problems to contact your solicitors with a view to joint action would be tempting but very ill-advised. I wish we could do it and it would feel good but you could well be facing a libel action over your claim of non-payment.

Ms X, on advice of her solicitors, would have what we would call a spurious defense or reason for non-payment. Until such time as this has been determined by a court in your favour, and the time for appeal has expired, you could be counter sued for libel and remember truth is not a defence in libel.

Bankruptcy is also not an option as an act of bankruptcy is not committed until a court judgement is not paid. The debt has to be above a certain amount. If this applies another set of legalese takes effect. Some assets are untouchable, eg, tools of trade, personal clothing, reasonable furniture, reasonable valued car and any property jointly owned. And until there are assets to pay for the cost of administering the bankruptcy the petitioning creditor has tom underwrite and guarantee the costs.

Sorry for the highjack and such long reply but this is my pet hate, and next week I am summonsed for jury service. Pity the criminal if I am empanelled.


Peter.

[echnidna]

Jackiew was saying that its possible to be truthful about that customer without exposing yourself to defamation actions.

[Sturdee]

Bob,

In my previous life I have been involved with sueing a couple of people for libel. From the advise then received I feel certain that advising unrelated people by LETTERBOXING about non payment of a bill will be taken by the court as publishing libel as long as the other party claims that the dispute is not about money but say quality of work.

You could call other people but putting it in writing and letterboxing is a no no.

Peter.

[echnidna]

Point Taken Sturdee,
Well just start bankruptcy proceedings, unorthodox but legitimate and very effective. And if they have stung someone else their world could fall down around their ears.

[seriph1]

anyone else forgotten the topic?

:)

[jackiew]

anyone else forgotten the topic?

:)

I think the question started from whether a mistake in a job specification (electrical work) could or should have been highlighted by the person doing the job - which then morphed into what happens if your customer doesn't pay you, which then resulted in reflections on what legal ( or illegal ) action you can take to get redress for non payment.

I have to say that my opinion of the law tends to depend on whether it is working to my benefit or not ... all to frequently these days I see the law ( as in the legal system rather than those who enforce it) as being an ass. Which is a bit worrying as one would hope that as one gets older that the laws would seem to make more sense. Instead everyday I seem to come face to face with rules and regulations which seem to have been created for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many. sigh :(

[Landseka]

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is not too difficult for a creditor to put a caveat on a persons property for (among other things) non payment of debts.

While the caveat is in place the property owner cannot sell the property or otherwise dispose of it without the caveat being removed which can only be done with the consent of the "caveator". Of course this would not be done until the debt had been paid.

Regards
Neil.

[Sturdee]

True, provided that a number of conditions are met.

Firstly the title must be in the same name as your nonpayer. Often the title is in joint names whilst your dispute is with only one of them. The other party (usually either the husband or wife) will object claiming the agreement or contract was done without his knowledge or consent. Typical answer is that our marriage is not solid and we were having a row.

Secondly it must actually be for non payment not a disputed claim. If a defence is claimed of either unsatisfactory work or incorrect charged amount the caveat will be removed by the Titles Office at the Caveators expense.

Regretfully the people I've worked for has been there, done that, and had it removed by the other party and had to pay damages for injury to his reputation as well. Cost my boss big, big bikkies.

Peter.

[HavinaGo]

Hi all, Im really annoyed at the moment I dont know with who myself or the elctrician I got to do my new house. Im an owner builder who started in Feb and we moved in in July. I got an electrician to do the house, all passed all legal. I got an air con put in today 2.5hp split system. The sparkie who put it in said we are right on the limit of amps available for the size of the mains(16mm), I think we have about 3amps left. He said that he advises people in my area(semi rural) who are on an acre or more with a fair sized house and no natural gas to run two 16mm mains so they can add things later on. .... Can anyone tell me how I calculate the total amps on the house.

Hi Dan,

My suspicion is your sparky has done a "Maximum Demand" calculation. The number he/she came up with should be on the certificate of electrical safety you received with the AC installation ... should make sense with the initial numbers when power was connected ...

In answer to your specific question:

Now, not being a sparky and being denied access to the latest AS3000 and associated guide standard without parting with heaps of money :mad:, all I can provide is the general principle of the calculation. It changes subtly with each revision of the standard. Further, the exact method of calculation depends on the type of installation you have.

It is a calculation that adds up the loads in an installation factoring in the likelyhood they will be used at a point in time, to arrive at a theoretical current consumption the installation will not exceed. Cables can then be sized to meet that demand. (Cable sizing is another issue that is not as obvious as it might seems ... we'll look at that next)

To get some idea, count the number of power points you have, 10 amps for the first 20 points, plus 5 amps for each additional 20 or part there of. Thus if you have 30 points, the Max demand calculation says that load contributes 15Amps to the Max usage of the residence.

Add 3Amps for up to 20 lights (in our example +3 to give 18Amps)

Lets say you have a 15Amp power point in the shed .. that gets counted separately and is worth 10A (in the example +10 -> 28Amps)

Stove (include 50% of connected load) (lets say a stove is 10kW, and as there are approx 4amps per kW -> 40Amp * 50% -> +20Amp to Max demand .. so we are now 48Amp)

Hot Water (off peak only, 33% connected load)(lets guess 4kW -> 16Amps *33% -> +6Amp to Max Demand ... now 54Amp)

A/C ... lets say 2.5HP is 2 kW -> 8amps .. the old standard says add half ie 4Amps to Max demand but the new one?? .. lets say we are now up to 58Aamp.

Making judgements is the name of the game as is knowing the latest guidelines ... then just add all the numbers up to get a Max demand number ..... :)

Cable sizing:
Carrying capacity of a cable can be current limited (ie how hot the cable will get) or voltage limited (ie will the volts drop be too much when a current is drawn via the cable .... this used to be set at 5% total over the whole installation ie 12V for a single phase installation .. including the wires in the house)
16mm sq, direct burried single phase with HRC fuses .. current limit used to be 100Amp.
given the volt drop is 2.8mV/Am, anything over 40 meters at the 100Amp load will be voltage limited.

Not sure if this helps .. other than to say the calculation is a statistical attempt to get cable sizes right to prevent problems.

Rookie's comment wakes vague memories that an alternate to the Max demand calculation exists .. but the details elude me.

Anyone??

[echnidna]

That was extremely helpful Havinago, very glad to have you aboard. I expect with your extraordinary grasp of hitech crap that you are just the person to answer the questions that have been perplexing so many of of on this forum.

1. How do you tell the front of a foil hat.
2. Does red foil work better than silver foil.

[ozwinner]

Hats off, foil ones of course, to echnidna

Al :D

[bitingmidge]

Hey do you guys have trouble with arcing between your foil hat and the fillings in your back teeth when you are checking stuff in the microwave??

:eek: :eek: :eek:

P

[ozwinner]

The microwave!! of course, I should have guessed.

BTW Midge........Rain........say no more. :rolleyes:

Al :D

[Dan_574]

Thanks Havinago, I got lost at maximum demand, I will read it again carefully and see how I go. Thanks again

[HavinaGo]

Your welcome Dan, probably easiest to talk it through with your local sparky to find the assumptions that were made behind the "3amps left" statement

Echnidna ... Yes I did get carried away. Oh well. Some days I can't resist. As to your questions .. I have not got the fogyist! How do you tell? (ps my grasp of spelling is a weakness so please cope with the creative efforts :) )

The sparks concepts from a microwave could be an interesting short term experiment .. I just can't fit the hat in??

Now back to ... kids bed time

see ya

David

[soundman]

Ahh peak demand ( read black magic ).

How much more can I connect in excess than the rated incomming mains???

As said before there are peak demand "guidlines" set out in the AS but they are open to interpretation, so you need to ask the question of how those figures wer derived and what asumptions were made.

From there you can consider your position.

one option not often considered in domestic housing is load shedding.
ie making sure certain high demabd items can not be used at the same time.
eg the sauna and the hot water system
the hotwater system is connected to an off peak tarif and operates between 10pm and 6am a contactor is installed so the sauna will not operate during that time.
load shed, peak demand reduced.
A sparky friend of mine load shed his laundry power against his hot water.
Some local authorities might have problems with that but its worth a try.
your HWS draws about 15 amps.