Woodworking Coffee Adicts

[Bushmiller]

New member BlIss posted a thread about making timber accessories for his espresso machine in this thread:

Off cuts & Advice on Timber for Coffee Machine (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f14/off-cuts-advice-timber-coffee-machine-134136/)

As you will see he has made timber group handles. BobL has made timber tamper handles and timber knock boxes:

And you can read about all that there, but it became apparant that the thread was going to be hijacked, primarily by yours truly, on the subject of coffee itself.

BobL clearly has more than a passing interest, I have bemoaned on many occasions the failing of so many commercial cafes and it occured to me that there are probably many of you out there who are truly passionate about one of the world's oldest brews.

So to kick it away I thought the type of issues we might ask you to discuss are:

Your favourite coffee establishment.
Your preferred coffee beans, where you get them and cost.
Pet hates about the way people or establishments make coffee
The terrible things you have observed when coffee is being made
Recipes. BobL has a tecqnique for iced coffee as an example.
Reviews and verdicts on coffee machines would be good too.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

I will begin with a story.

When we had our cafe in the Hunter Valley, we took over a business on a whim and like so many, hardly knew what we were doing, but as time went on we learned, mainly the hard way. For me as the coffee maker (I don't like to think of myself as a barrista at that time, although by the end I was approaching that status) I chanced on a stoke of luck.

I was invited to use a coffee by the name of Don Adan. I was sent a sample and loved it from the moment it passed my lips. At that stage I wasn't even making it correctly and I still loved it. It became clear that "coffees ain't coffees."

The owner and importer of this coffee came from Honduras where his family had had a plantation for more than five generations. It was in his blood, but he never drank coffee when he was out. Friends asked him why and his reply was that most establishments in Australia didn't know how to make coffee.

So they challenged him to set up his own shop. He did this and roasted and sold coffee to a limited number of other establishments of which ours was one. He would verify that they would do justice to his coffee before allowing them to buy it.

Gerrad came from Sydney to where we were and gave me an introduction on how to make coffee! He was pedantic and it was an eye opener to say the least.

I was fortunate to be taught by an expert, but many of the coffee companies run barrista courses so there is no excuse really not to know. The fundamentals are the same, the mistakes made by cafes are also the same.

So over to the woodworkers. This could fizzle like a "why bother" or it could hit a caffeine high:wink:.

Oh, I have just posted a single picture as the only remnant of our cafe (besides my trusty tamper, which serves no purpose at the moment as I only have stovetop espresso machines.) It is called a deli grinder. We used it only to grind coffee for customers who wanted to take some home. For every day use we had a couple of burr grinders. Now we just grind our own beans with it.



Regards
Paul<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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__________________
<!-- google_ad_section_start(weight=ignore) -->Bushmiller;

"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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[BobL]

Good story BM!

My coffee life bio is as follows:
Continental parents so coffee is big from when I was a kid even if it was kind of cross between sump oil and Guinness.
Left home and was dripping and stove topping until I got my first espresso machine (La Cimbali Domus) about 15 years ago.
At work we set up a coffee club and started with a Saeco auto espresso machine and Segafredo Beans.
Not long after we discovered FiveSensesCoffee and that's when we really started learning what it was all about. We're still ordering from them and we are the corporate client that has been buying from them for longer than any other.
Dean Gallegher runs 5 Senses and had us over for tastings and trying new varieties and blends. He has really done and continues to do his homework. For about 5 years they were blending a roast especially for us called Burton's Blend. They have roasters in Perth and Melbourne. Their decaf is about the best I can find in Oz.
Bought a Cafe standard machine (La Cimbali Junior) in 2004 and Mazzer Mini grinder.
Spent way too many years of my life on international and Aussie coffee forums - mainly coffeegeek.com - only really got off it when I discovered WWF.
Did a barista course at the Australian Barista Academy but didn't learn much as I had gotten into it with the guys at work in a fairly deep way.
Did a barista judging course and judged a couple of state barista championships.
I visited Seattle a couple of times and despite being the home of Sickly Starducks they do have some seriously good coffee establishments. I did a "cafe bar crawl" tasting over a period of 3 days and spent a week of sleepless nights in the process.
This is as far as I went - I still like making and drinking coffee but don't drink as much as I used to because of sleeping issues. At one point I was drinking 8 doubles a day but now I'm down to about 3 doubles and 2 double decafs in the evening



Your favourite coffee establishment.
I'm not a big cafe coffee drinker. 95% of cafe coffee is swill and if I'm out somewhere I often drink tea.


Your preferred coffee beans, where you get them and cost.
5 Senses on-line - FiveSensesCoffee.com.au. Order one day and they are delivered freshly roasted within 2 days. I rarely keep beans more than 3 weeks before ordering new. My favourite single origin is probably still Purosa (New Guinea)


Pet hates about the way people or establishments make coffee.

The terrible things you have observed when coffee is being made
Crikey - where do I start?
My main observation is that 90% of ALL coffee is made with water that is too hot - if you don't know why this is bad, just ask. Stale beans, over roasted beans, cheap nasty beans, dirty machines, over extraction, water run through machine for too long, or too fast, served in the wrong cups, . . . . - I could go on and on.


Recipes.
My heart starter is a 14g semi-ristretto. 14g of freshly roasted ground coffee, reject the first 2-3 drops and then run in only about 20 ml of liquid - YUM!
Milk wise I like iced coffee and well made cappucinos with minimum froth.
I like affogatto - just google for the recipe.


Reviews and verdicts on coffee machines would be good too.
Coffeegeek.com has a serious range of user level reviews (see CoffeeGeek - Consumer Product Reviews (http://www.coffeegeek.com/reviews)) - I put mine in there somewhere.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=96767&stc=1&d=1234933663

[Bushmiller]

Bobl

Will reply at later date. May be an issue where this thread is posted. Got to go for beauty sleep:)

Regards
Paul

[q9]

Any time you want to write up a coffee making tutorial...

Good coffee is hit and miss in Toowoomba. More miss than hit, actually. And rarely worth the price of admission...

[RufflyRustic]

Thread fixed, Bushmiller :2tsup:

I totally agree, q9:rolleyes:

[Cliff Rogers]

I don't like instant coffee but I am not a complete coffee snob.

Most places making espresso coffee make it too strong for me.

At home & when we travel, we use a plunger & organic coffee from Goroka.

These people are the Aus distributors.
Tradewinds :: The Official Website (http://www.tradewinds.org.au)

Bearing in mind that the coffee is not meant to get too hot during the process, they way I have found to get a good coffee that is still hot when you go to drink it is to preheat the plunger & the cups & spoons in hot water, doesn't have to be boiling water, just hot water out of the tap in the kitchen, it makes a big difference.

I can drink espresso but I order it as a long black, 3/4 strength & get a little bit of milk on the side that I can then add to my liking 'cos I only have a dash.

I prefer raw sugar with my coffee.

[tea lady]

:think: If the cafes make coffee with water that is too hot how do they change it if it is a machine?

Coffee abominations are nothing. Try getting a decent cup of tea. :doh: Who would have thought boiling water would have been so difficult. Some places that have even gone to the trouble of getting "special teas" still give you a cup of hot water with a pretty tea bag on the side. :gaah:

I wentr through a stage when I lived in Fitzroy, of having Long Macchiato. But I had to give it up cos I was turning into a coffee nazi. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE COLD MILK. NOT A SPOON OF FROTH ON TOP. :minigun:

[BlIss]

Bushmiller OH I am SO happy to see others with like interests, and to find a few more on line is even better.

BobL I have seen that series of events posted by many as a more general introduction into coffee. If That makes sense. Alos like the Groups and Gauges etc. (Just made my own scace unit)


Loved the pics and my mouth just drules over the Knock Box....

In short, I am a Jack of all trades, Bush to City and then to many places OS.

IT / Electronics / F&T / Gaming / Fishing (Beach) / Coffee and most recently Wood Turning, oh and work is there some where :o:o

Sir Stinkalot knows me as AngerManagement and most recently from Coffeesnobs but have now joined Crema for any number of reasons. Lots of great Sites and some very useful places that cover off on the coffee process. Home Barista and their How to Pages is a good start.


Just sold my Dela Corta Mini and still have a few other basic home machines to get rid of and a couple of Commercial Grinders.

I will be at the Brisbane Wood Show and will be looking for suitable off cuts to try. If my mate from Nth NSW gets me some old Coffee tree would I will post and let you know asap.

The issue with coffee is that many get TOO caught up in the Technical and numbers side..

Good Beans +
Good Grinder +
And a person that has a understanding / feel =

Great Coffee.

The best machine can not cover for poor product or operator it is about what's in the cup.

PS. Too many; Tampers, Hand grinders, Roasters, EM6910's etc to count let alone about 60 or 80 kg of green beans....

AND NOW

I have to find space for all this new wood and timber stuff :o:o

[BlIss]

:think: If the cafes make coffee with water that is too hot how do they change it if it is a machine?

Coffee abominations are nothing. Try getting a decent cup of tea. :doh: Who would have thought boiling water would have been so difficult. Some places that have even gone to the trouble of getting "special teas" still give you a cup of hot water with a pretty tea bag on the side. :gaah:

I wentr through a stage when I lived in Fitzroy, of having Long Macchiato. But I had to give it up cos I was turning into a coffee nazi. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE COLD MILK. NOT A SPOON OF FROTH ON TOP. :minigun:

You people should make the odd post on the Crema Forums... But way too many forums these days.

As BobL said... CoffeeGeek / Home Barista etc lots out there and lots of personalities :;:;

As for to HOT.. Big argument as it comes down to the Equipment type and the work flow and how the tec sets teh machine up and what the Owner will let the Barista (use that term loosely) do. So just - Monkey see monkey do and do not understand; others do, but management and or busy are not given the freedom. Then there is the issue that if all teh staff are not clones, then the cup will be different...

AND that is with out even considering how beans are managed :~:~:~

[BobL]

Any time you want to write up a coffee making tutorial...

Good coffee is hit and miss in Toowoomba. More miss than hit, actually. And rarely worth the price of admission...

How to make a good cup of coffee is the same as how long is a piece of string. The best way to learn is to do a barista course - all I can provide here are some pointers.

Like WW and a lot of other craft, good espresso and espresso based coffee is s triple input process; Operator, Tools and Input materials.

Operator: Has to be skilled enough to manage the equipment and materials to produce the desired output.

Tools: Whether its plunger, stove top, drip, espresso machine doesn't matter. A roasted coffee bean contains a mix of good, neutral and bad components and The equipment has to be able to extract the good bits and leave the nasty behind. Ever seen a barista smell a used coffee puck? If the good bits have been properly extracted the puck will have a faint sewage smell about it, if not then that stuff is in your cup. The most neglected piece of equipment is the grinder. A whirling blade type grinder is hopeless since it smashes/chops the bean into too wide a range of particle sizes making it too easy to extract the bad bits from the powder and too hard to extract anything from the big bits. The better types of grinders are burr and the best are conical burr grinders. Unfortunately the price of a basic grinder such as a Sunbeam 0408 is about $200.
http://worldbaristachampionship.com/

Input material: Two key words here are "Quality" and "Fresh". Freshly roasted coffee and milk. Roasted coffee reaches it's optimum 1-2 days after roasting (before that it still contains too much CO2 and just makes a lot of brown froth. Coffee beans start going stale after that and the extent you can retain then depends on many things but within 2-3 weeks the beans will become oily on the outside and lose that elusive coffee aroma/flavour. After four weeks most beans are only good for compost. The most neglected input is the temperature of the water which should DEFINITELY not be boiling as this quickly evaporates a lot of the goodies out of the coffee.

The world barista championship (WBC) defines a good espresso as follows.
A. An espresso must 30 +/- ml of liquid including crema.
B. Each single espresso should be produced with an appropriate and consistent amount of ground coffee.
C. Espresso shall be brewed at a temperature between 90.5- 96 degrees Celsius.
D. Machine brewing pressure will be 8.5 to 9.5 atmospheres.
E. Extraction time must be between 20 to 30 seconds.
F. Espressos must be served in a 2 to 3 ounce / 60 to 90 ml cup with a handle.

Cappuccino
A.A Cappuccino should consist of a single shot of espresso, and steamed milk and frothed milk (usually in equal amounts with no discernible boundary between the liquid and frothed milk.
B. A traditional cappuccino is 150 to 180 ml beverage served in 150 to 180 ml cup with a handle.
C. Any additional toppings, spices or powdered flavourings are not allowed.

WBC are not being prats about these specifications, there has been an enormous amount of research done on this and the consensus by professional expresso coffee tasters includes all of the above. If you get your equipment and yourself to meet these specifications you will make a better coffee.

[BobL]

:think: If the cafes make coffee with water that is too hot how do they change it if it is a machine?
Assuming the machine has been properly serviced (many are not) most quality machines have a temperature adjustment mechanism. For machines that do not if a machine has been sitting and not being used they will over heat and just need a simple flush for 20 seconds or so to bring the temp down.


Coffee abominations are nothing. Try getting a decent cup of tea. :doh: Who would have thought boiling water would have been so difficult. Some places that have even gone to the trouble of getting "special teas" still give you a cup of hot water with a pretty tea bag on the side. :gaah:
I agree. Tea needs very hot water to get the full flavour out of the leaves. Ever tried to make a good tea at altitude? As for tea bags . . . . well putting tea in porous little bags is a excellent way to wick flavour from tea leaves as quickly as possible.


I wentr through a stage when I lived in Fitzroy, of having Long Macchiato. But I had to give it up cos I was turning into a coffee nazi. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE COLD MILK. NOT A SPOON OF FROTH ON TOP. :minigun:
In Italy I have seen them all use all manner of milk including room temp milk or milk from the frothed milk that has been sitting on a counter for an hour or two and even from a little packet of long life milk. Mind you most Italian barista's cannot make a cappuccino either.

Macchiatos, lattes, flat whites, long, short, tall, grande, half cafs etc have no meaning or definition in the world of pro coffee makers. The world barista championship only defines an espresso (as determined by research) and places a specification on a cappuccino in terms of the integrity of the milk and froth. Other coffees are considered as fashion.

[BobL]

.
.
Most places making espresso coffee make it too strong for me.
.
.


Thats usually because they usually over extract it with water that is too hot and are probably using poor quality stale coffee. What they end up with is horrible black liquid with all the unwanted bitter components of the coffee in the cup instead of leaving most in the puck.

The holy grail of espresso is to try and make it as close as possible to the way freshly roasted coffee smells - what we usually smell is the volatile sweetness of caramel chocolate like substances and a little less of the bitter and even less sour although sometimes you can get hints of berries in the aroma.

Making a good espresso from a single dose of ground coffee (7 g) is really difficult because it gives no leeway between the good and the bad. I use 12 or 14 g of ground coffee - that should be enough to make 2 shots but I under extract it, this extracts the sour component but leaves the excess bitter behind. If the beans are fresh then there should be enough caramel sweetness coming through to retain some balance but if one is after an overall sweet taste then that can be balanced with sugar although I prefer not to do this. As the coffee bean ages the volatile caramel flavours evaporate away and some sugars are converted to other more bitter compounds.

A good espresso should have a tan (not cream and definitely not white) crema with flecks or stripes of a deep orange/dark brown. The correct crema colour is the number one indicator of the freshness and quality of the beans and says there are still caramel components present in the bean.

The chemistry is exceedingly complicated - which is one reason this appeals to me. The chase is fun - like aging a good wine or even a good set of dovetails .:D

[Cliff Rogers]

... Long Macchiato. But I had to give it up cos I was turning into a coffee nazi. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE COLD MILK. NOT A SPOON OF FROTH ON TOP. :minigun:
Yup, I order a long black with a bit of cold milk on the side & I get told "Arh, you want a long mac." & then most of them make a long black & spoon milk froth onto it.

I even had one bloke in Kuranda get up me 'cos I was a stupid aussie that didn't know what I wanted.
I said I did know what I wanted & that most coffee snobs made what 'they thought' I wanted & got it wrong.
He said that what I was asking for was a long mac.
I said OK that is what I'll have.
When I went in there again, not 2 weeks later & asked for a Long mac, the bastard made it with hot milk froth. :~

There is a silly cranky old Mexican in Mt Molloy who won't even sell you a long black if you are going to put cold milk in it. :rolleyes:

[cava]

Fantastic thread guys/girls. Really enjoying it - thankyou.

FYI, I approve coffee machines, amongst other electrical appliances for Australia and NZ, and there are machines and there are machines!

[BobL]

Yup, I order a long black with a bit of cold milk on the side & I get told "Arh, you want a long mac." & then most of them make a long black & spoon milk froth onto it.

I even had one bloke in Kuranda get up me 'cos I was a stupid aussie that didn't know what I wanted.
I said I did know what I wanted & that most coffee snobs made what 'they thought' I wanted & got it wrong.
He said that what I was asking for was a long mac.
I said OK that is what I'll have.
When I went in there again, not 2 weeks later & asked for a Long mac, the bastard made it with hot milk froth. :~

There is a silly cranky old Mexican in Mt Molloy who won't even sell you a long black if you are going to put cold milk in it. :rolleyes:

Your experiences are just one reason why I don't frequent cafes , OTOH an awful lot of Aussies buy their coffee at Macas coffee so I can sense the frustration of a good barista when a customer says I want my coffee so hot its boiling.

[BlIss]

Oh how many times I have read and heard the same stories, let alone experienced it all.

How to make good coffee is just like how to you make a wooden bowl ?

How long is a piece of string as there are variables in every input....

The Machines will assist in throughput and a level of consistency, after that the User had better be able to manage the variables.


The ex Australian Champion (Tim Adams), myself and another did a few visits teh other week and the outcome (Best 5 in Brisbane) as published in the Crema mag, was as some expected but not all would agree.

The issue was consistancy and how one performs on teh day. Places I have had a great SB etc severed up dish water on the day we called in. Can not score on previous or "What IF", had to be done as we found them, on the day.

Thus I grow / roast / Grind on demand and drink my own coffee AND even then I do not always get it right :o:o:o:o Just ask my wife :U

With the wood work, if I stuff it; It is hit with a saw and in the fire box :doh:

[Sir Stinkalot]

Reviews and verdicts on coffee machines would be good too.

Here is my little humble setup .... just coming up to its first birthday.

Machine: Diadema Junior Regal (Called Stephano)
Grinder: Compak K3 Touch Polished (Called Grinderman)
Tamper: Bogav Classic
Cups: 12x ACF Bowl Cappuccino Cup (200ml)
6x ACF Tulip Espresso Cup (70ml)

<a href="http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a114/Sir_Stinkalot2525/woodwork/?action=view&amp;current=IMG_9476-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a114/Sir_Stinkalot2525/woodwork/IMG_9476-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a114/Sir_Stinkalot2525/woodwork/?action=view&amp;current=IMG_9478-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a114/Sir_Stinkalot2525/woodwork/IMG_9478-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[Whit68]

G'day all,

I know good equipment matters but for me it is all in the beans and as far as beans go 5 Senses are the only ones. Dean is a good mate of mine and I know the passion that goes into everything he does and the result is the best beans money can buy.

[BobL]

G'day all,

I know good equipment matters but for me it is all in the beans and as far as beans go 5 Senses are the only ones. Dean is a good mate of mine and I know the passion that goes into everything he does and the result is the best beans money can buy.

Yep - Dean knows his stuff, and quality beans and a french press is all you really need. Espresso machines are like hi-fi - some folk like to go to the n'th degree but the law of diminishing returns applies just the same, and a good barista with fresh beans and a $500 espresso machine can usually make a better cup of coffee than a rank amateur can make with a $2000 machine. The thing about the expensive machines made out of brass and stainless is they can last a lot longer than the ones with a lot of plastic in them. I've seen a lot of people buy cheap machines and they barely last twice as long as their warranty.

[texx]

funny i just found this thread i have spent all day researching coffee machines for our shop .
seems some people dont like our instant even though they have never tried it ( moccona intensity ) :C
anyway we are going to move with the times and throw 2 or 3 grand at some gear and do a course see what happens .
we did do plunger for a while but it never realy took off much .and i used the best beans for that bought fresh from the roaster.
it is a lot harder in a small country town and people from the city traveling through cant seem to realise that ,
they expect a little town with a pop of 900 to have all the frills of the city . not viable in most cases.
we get a few people a week ( travelers ) asking for a latte and my wife has never even seen one .

johno

[BlIss]

funny i just found this thread i have spent all day researching coffee machines for our shop .
seems some people dont like our instant even though they have never tried it ( moccona intensity ) :C
anyway we are going to move with the times and throw 2 or 3 grand at some gear and do a course see what happens .
we did do plunger for a while but it never realy took off much .and i used the best beans for that bought fresh from the roaster.
it is a lot harder in a small country town and people from the city traveling through cant seem to realise that ,
they expect a little town with a pop of 900 to have all the frills of the city . not viable in most cases.
we get a few people a week ( travelers ) asking for a latte and my wife has never even seen one .

johno


My BIL was teh Station Master there some 3 years ago...

If your only doing 10 or 20 a week, then 2 or 3 K may be well over the top; as the Machine Vs Grinder VS FRESH beans will still see you serving crap coffee.

Be aware a 2 hr Braista course is worth nothing... Even the 1/2 day courses can be a waste if you do not have some background to start with.

There is NO HARD rule but Roasted beans can last from a couple of weeks to a couple of months IF stored correctly. Grind them and you done and dusted... 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 min and there are stale. Open a 1 Kg bag out there and pour into teh hopper and they are all stale in under an hr. Yet they might sit there for a week plus...

OH and don't forget good water or ya coffee and Machine will suffer yet again.

Thus if you do not have a Coffee made mate (home roasting) AND or access to a small Prosumer type machine, a few K on stale coffee is not a step forward. Have seen a few that have broken, to $$$ to be fixed (travel costs) and just get used to steam teh milk and teh coffee is instant :o:o

Search out Home Barista and the FAQ's then look at the Crema and CoffeeSnobs fourms. One of teh Admins from CS (Mal) is from Warwick and may be better placed, to offer first-hand / local advice. And that is worth more than a dozen well meaning posts....

AM

[q9]

Yes, often when travelling, I don't expect much from small towns as far as coffee goes. I wouldn't think Texas would have a great calling for "real" coffee. You could possibly get away with a domestic class machine - it still beats any instant.

[BobL]

Here is my little humble setup .... just coming up to its first birthday.href="http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a114/Sir_Stinkalot2525/woodwork/?action=view&amp;current=IMG_9478-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a114/Sir_Stinkalot2525/woodwork/IMG_9478-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Looks good SS - very colourful!

After my warranty ran out I plumbed my machine in. The inlet is connected to a water purifier and filter and the outlet drains straight to the same drain line as the dishwasher. This means no for filling or emptying the drain tray. This has been a improvement on the speed of coffee making but it is not without a need for maintenance.

One night I woke up and got up to get a drink of water. As I staggered into the kitchen I almost slipped over on a some slippery liquid. I turned on the light and there was a pool of brown black water all over the floor, dripping down the bench front and coming from under the coffee machine drip tray. The stuff was all inside two cupboards (SWMBO best china) and in short had made a big mess

To cut a long story short what had happened was a large olive pip had jammed in the dishwasher spigot/drain/outlet. When the dishwasher had tried to pump the water way the olive pip had prevented the water going to waste and so it backed up and went to the next available pipe which was the coffee machine drain. The dishwasher had then discharged a soapy load back through the coffee machine drain, the pipe of which was coated in brown grounds and flushed everything out onto the kitchen floor. The reason the olive pip had jammed was because the plumber who installed the dishwasher (not me) had used a 1/4" bit to drill a hole in the 1/2" spigot to the drain.

Anyway all has been good since except the drain line will eventually clog with grinds if left for too long so every couple of weeks I dump a half cup of hot water and dishwasher powder down the drain.

[texx]

My BIL was teh Station Master there some 3 years ago...

If your only doing 10 or 20 a week, then 2 or 3 K may be well over the top; as the Machine Vs Grinder VS FRESH beans will still see you serving crap coffee.

Be aware a 2 hr Braista course is worth nothing... Even the 1/2 day courses can be a waste if you do not have some background to start with.

There is NO HARD rule but Roasted beans can last from a couple of weeks to a couple of months IF stored correctly. Grind them and you done and dusted... 3 or 4 or 5 or 10 min and there are stale. Open a 1 Kg bag out there and pour into teh hopper and they are all stale in under an hr. Yet they might sit there for a week plus...

OH and don't forget good water or ya coffee and Machine will suffer yet again.

Thus if you do not have a Coffee made mate (home roasting) AND or access to a small Prosumer type machine, a few K on stale coffee is not a step forward. Have seen a few that have broken, to $$$ to be fixed (travel costs) and just get used to steam teh milk and teh coffee is instant :o:o

Search out Home Barista and the FAQ's then look at the Crema and CoffeeSnobs fourms. One of teh Admins from CS (Mal) is from Warwick and may be better placed, to offer first-hand / local advice. And that is worth more than a dozen well meaning posts....

AM
not sure what you mean ,
we have not had a train here in at least 15 years ,
i would drink more than 20 a week .'and i have several regular customers that are asking for it .:doh:that dont sound right
we get asked for cappuccino a quite lot .
i go to toowoomba every week and i can get freshly roast beans there .i need to get a grinder too.
water will be tank water .

johno

[BlIss]

Opps 30 Years not 3....

I even won a fishing comp and had the pic in the pub... Got lots of Foxes that year as well.

Eel Tail catfish and some big crays....

Long time ago now.

A single group, Tanked would do you... But depending on what is around a 2 group may be just as cheep but space and plumbing in and water filters etc may knock any savin g on the head.

Do not rush in...

A good grinder will set you back $500 to $1500 and trust me even teh $500 units are bottom of teh range.

Mind you an EM6910 and an EM0480 grinder and a bit of training would see you easily looking after ya self and a couple of drive bys with ease.... It would also let you learn and see if it is really what you want... On special or do a deal with the big suppliers and the two for under $750...

If it is not what you expect, you have lost little....

Any machine with out a dual boiler and or a good sized HX may struggle AND for ease Volumetric - i.e. Push button and programmed...

Thus A machine and Grinder and Maintenance to meet ya needs etc etc will cost you $$$$

But an EM6910 or teh Soon to be released BES900 T2 (June) may well be the best option..

[Bushmiller]

Forumites

Great to see this level of enthusiasm and knowledge too. Like I said at the begining, I was unsure as to whether this would end up like a why bother (weak, skinny, decaf {normally} latte). Clearly I need not have worried. You have come up trumps and I am hoping there is more to come.

Thanks to Wendy (Rufly Rustic) for re-positioning this thread in it's rightful spot after I made such a nonsense.

Perhaps I can make some very general comments about coffee.

Coffee unfortunately is a very fickle creature. It has an extremely short shelf life. Gerrad, my mentor, maintained that from the day it is roasted it will only make the best coffee for about a fortnight. After that a gradual degradation of the beans occurs. It will still be satisfactory for most of us after that time (perhaps up to a month in total). It would take a very experienced coffee taster to determine the difference between two and four weeks.

This all assumes however that the beans have been kept correctly and only ground just before use.

This fickle creature coffee has many enemies; Sunlight, heat, time and moisture. Moisture is often the worst of them all. Coffee is absorbent, but moisture ruins coffee. It is the reason why it should be kept in a cool, dry, dark place. That automatically precludes the fridge and freezer. Each time the bag is opened warm air is introduced and on return to the fridge/freezer the moisture is condensed and absorbed by the coffee. You never see this because the coffee bean is like blotting paper, but this is one of the worst things that can befall a coffee bean.

There is plenty of heat in an espresso machine and in the group head in particular. You will know this if you have every touched it with bare skin. Now the group handle should remain in the head until it is replenished with fresh coffee. When returned to the group head the extraction process should start immediately.

I would place the cups either side of the machine, insert the group handle, press the start button and then place the cups under the group handle.

It will take a couple of moments for the liquid to come through and this is long enough to position the cups. I was told that you have four seconds to start the extraction after the handle is placed in the group head. In a commercial situation a routine like this speeds things up during busy times too. Not an issue for the domestic user, but still good practice.

The milk, if required, is heated before all this takes place.

BTW, one of the reasons I so loved the knock boxes made by BobL was that our coffee machine did not have a tray or drawer for the used coffee grounds and we improvised with a 1m piece of 150mm plastic pipe with a cap on the bottom and a bolt through the top covered with garden hose:-. It was crude and not a little gross:rolleyes: and pretty heavy when full.

Regards
Paul

[BobL]

Coffee unfortunately is a very fickle creature. It has an extremely short shelf life. Gerrad, my mentor, maintained that from the day it is roasted it will only make the best coffee for about a fortnight. After that a gradual degradation of the beans occurs. It will still be satisfactory for most of us after that time (perhaps up to a month in total). It would take a very experienced coffee taster to determine the difference between two and four weeks.
Bean or bean content degradation starts immediately after roasting. The much wanted sweet volatiles are lost along with the CO2 that is made during the roasting - most volatiles are inside the bean under pressure and are lost from the bean within days irrespective of how the beans are stored. Also irrespective of how the beans are stored the essential oils produced/released during in roasting wick to the surface of the bean over a period of 1 - 3 weeks and turn the bean outer coating shiny or oiyl (usually the oilier the bean the more the chances of it being off) and begin to break down. From here on the predominant degrader is oxygen or air compounded by light and water. These speed up oil degradation to the point where the oils become rancid and the develop that acrid burnt sandshoe aroma, this is also gives stale coffee a very unpleasant taste. Keeping beans away from excess oxygen and in moisture free in light proof containers helps. There have been patents issued for vacuum, nitrogen, and mixed Argon/Nitrogen based storage systems which help but no matter what is done the oils will break down eventually and the beans go stale. I never buy imported coffee beans as they sit around it warehouses for months. Fresh beans are definitely the only way to go.

As BM says storage in a fridge is not so good - too many smells. Storage in a freezer is not perfect but OK provided, the bag is truly factory sealed with a one way air valve (ie not a ziplock or clip), and the bag is removed from the freezer and allowed to come up to room temp before opening the bag otherwise the beans will condense water onto them. I found that beans placed in a freezer in this way still go off but about 2 times more slowly than they otherwise would at room temperature.


BTW, one of the reasons I so loved the knock boxes made by BobL was that our coffee machine did not have a tray or drawer for the used coffee grounds and we improvised with a 1m piece of 150mm plastic pipe with a cap on the bottom and a bolt through the top covered with garden hose:-. It was crude and not a little gross:rolleyes: and pretty heavy when full.

One more thing I forgot to add its that I put the used coffee grounds in the garden They keep slugs and snails away and it makes excellent compost - they do after all smell faintly of sewage, and the garden after while takes on a stale coffee aroma.

[artme]

Did someone mention Maccas and coffeee in the same sentence.??

Macca's "coffee" is the most putrid abomination :yucky::yucky: ever put in a cup.

[Bushmiller]

Sorry. Forgot to include O2 in the list of coffee enemies.

All our coffee grounds go into the worm farms (we have three.)

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I have to assume that when an establishment selling coffe goes down this track, they undergo training. Why would you part with upwards of 10K worth of coffee gear and not find out how to use it?

I suspect that some don't do this, but certainly they don't pass on knowledge (such as it is) to their staff.

It is why most establishments offer a very substandard product. I have heard it said that 20% of coffee making is to do with the beans and 80% is the barrista input! No wonder that on a good day the results are variable and on a bad day just plain daibolical.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

My preferred drink is a double shot ristretto in a cup of flat white. However I do get a little tired of having to explain people's business to them as most think I'm from another planet. Come to think of it my son asked what planet I'd come from once, but that's a completely different story.

More recently I have been advised to stop drinking milk, although I am still allowed to have cream:wink:. So I am currently drinking short black or short black with cream on the top (a bit like a vienna coffee, but smaller). It is my version of a macchiato.

Regards
Paul

[BobL]

I have to assume that when an establishment selling coffe goes down this track, they undergo training. Why would you part with upwards of 10K worth of coffee gear and not find out how to use it? l

Take Qantas club. Stale coffee in $10k machines that have not been set up right. They set the grinder way too coarse so the water gushes out quickly (can't keep customers waiting) resulting in near white crema over some dirty brown acrid water. I know these machines can make a good coffee - I have had many from the same make and model machine in a Geneva Univ cafeteria.

I complained to QC several times - no feedback.

Eventually a sign goes up - "coming soon, each club will have a trained barista!"

The next time I go in there's sign proclaiming the barista, a dude in a black apron standing in front of their usual gushing machines with the same stale coffee, all the barista does is (over) froth the milk - big deal!

After deciding whether to have a coffee or not I walk over, but said dude is not there. There's a lady close by wiping tables and she notices me, "Can I's help ya luv?", I'm just waiting for the "bareesta" I say. "Never mind, I can do it, and what'll be?". So I ask for a double espresso please and she pushes a button and it's the same "near white crema over some dirty brown acrid water"

Contrast that with the Kuwait air port business lounge, where two knowledgeable barista's serve a more than acceptable coffee with proper crema.
"Where did you train and for how long?" I asked, "Dubai, for 3 months".
"How many of you were being trained", "200, 6 of us were hired by Kuwait airport and some others went elsewhere".

[BobL]

Did someone mention Maccas and coffeee in the same sentence.??

Macca's "coffee" is the most putrid abomination :yucky::yucky: ever put in a cup.

Not quite - I can safely say that in Seattle ie SHG (Starducks Holy Ground) there is a cafe chain called "Seattle's Slimiest" which will sell you a double shot espresso in a cup that looks like a medium size clear beer stein (ie it's there smallest cup) that tastes worse than maccas coffee.

The young woman on the ordering desk did not even realize they served espresso. "Oh, I'm not sure we do that", she chirps.
"Well it's on your menu board" I reply. (There are around 35 offerings on the board)
"So tis" she chimes, but I better check with the bareesta first".

Eventually the barista - an embarrassed pimply youth comes over and asks me what sort of a cup I would like it in. I'm somewhat confused by this and suggest a regular espresso cup. The barista explains they have no espresso cups because management wants to minimize the different numbers of sizes of cups they have in the cafe.
OK - I say give it to me in your smallest cup, so it arrives in the beer stein???? It's the same glass they use for a junior chocolatey malty something or other.

[artme]

Thanks for the heads up Bb. I know where not to go if I ever get to Seattle!!

I don't think I've ever pleaded guilty to having even a reasonable cup of coffee anywhere in the States, Must go to the wrong establishments!:doh:

Had some good brews in Argentina and the odd one in Brasil. Funny how the Brasileiros grow great beans but don't have the drink down to a fine art,

We were in Venice and bought a short black in a small coffe shop there. Expensive, very small and then the bugger wanted $2 if I sat down to drink it!!!

[BobL]

Thanks for the heads up Bb. I know where not to go if I ever get to Seattle!!

I don't think I've ever pleaded guilty to having even a reasonable cup of coffee anywhere in the States, Must go to the wrong establishments!:doh:

Seattle is a little mecca of coffee in the US and while there's an awful lot of swill it has some superb cafes.

Zoka's near the University is one of the best cafes in the world. Baristas are well informed and friendly. The roast their own coffee and its just a great place.

David Schomers cafes (http://www.espressovivace.com/retail.html) on Broadway and Yale are simply outstanding cafes also equal for coffee to anywhere on the planet. BTW Schomer has written a (some say THE) definitive Text book on making coffee that is used as a text at serious barista school. he also has made 2 DVDs - very informative. His recommended coffee machine for home users is the one group http://www.synesso.com/default.aspx?ID=8 - which costs about $9k!

Victorola cafes (http://www.victrolacoffee.com/)are also great places. The also roast their own - excellent coffee. Baristas are knowledgeable about what they are selling, friendly and accommodating without appearing flustered or annoyed and ask for feedback to check they got it right. Food was good at the 15th East st cafe.

There are more good places but that should give you the idea.


We were in Venice and bought a short black in a small coffe shop there. Expensive, very small and then the bugger wanted $2 if I sat down to drink it!!! I found Italy a variable place for coffee and a lot of it has to hit and miss. I've had really good coffees in; Sienna, small cafe just off the main square, 0.6€; small village behind Positano, also 0.6€, in several places in Pisa. Venice is variable and although we only tried a couple of cafes in each place the coffee we had was average to disappointing in places like Luca, Torino, Perugia and Florence.

[tea lady]

A friend and I were fantasizing about opening a cafe called "the half decent cafe" cos they were so hard to find. How come there are cafes everywhere but they can't make coffee OR tea! :doh:

[BobL]

A friend and I were fantasizing about opening a cafe called "the half decent cafe" cos they were so hard to find. How come there are cafes everywhere but they can't make coffee OR tea! :doh:

Coffee and tea making has some similarities to teaching and woodworking and the concept of half empty is better or worse than half full.

Everyone has been to school and been exposed to poor teaching so they think they can do better. Same with making good coffee or woodwork. Reality is recognizing something is not right is not the same as making it better. It's also not just a matter of training. Another major factor is consistency ie having to continually repeat a quality process under pressure and not become jaded by the process.

I have never worked in a cafe but have made coffee for up to 70 people at parties and I can see why a barista can become sloppy and take short cuts. Doing this a couple of times quickly put paid to the idea of becoming a part time barista.:D The skill of a barista is in making good coffee for hour after hour under constant pressure, and remaining passionate, charming and friendly about it.

Besides their day job, world champion baristas will go through many dozens of kg of coffee during their training. When Aussie Paul Bassett won the world championships it was said he used up 15 kg of coffee in the last few days training leading up to the final.

[Ozkaban]

I love coffee, but don't think I'm a coffee snob, though it drives me nuts when people make coffee badly.

I usually drink Long Black as I hate the milk, tried soy for a month and reckon it nearly killed me, and you can't linger over a macchiato :rolleyes: I'm also happy to drink a beverage called 'instant' when necessary. It's not coffee, and so long as you don't call it that I'm happy :D

My favourite coffee is from Ministry Grounds (http://www.ministrygrounds.net.au). I buy green beans and roast them myself with a heat gun and an old bread maker (on dough setting). it takes about 15-20 mins to roast 500g of coffee, and it's usually sensational unless i screw it up. Also costs me about $10-12 per kg for premium beans, which is fantastic. Oh, and the proprietor, Neil, is a fantastic person with great customer service who does it for the love of coffee :2tsup:

He also sells a hot chocolate called Zokoko, which is unbelievable. A tablespoon in a jug of milk, froth it up and serve - just amazing.

My home setup is fairly humble, a Sunbeam EM5900. I have the sunbeam conical burr grinder with it, which I think makes as much difference as having an espresso machine. Truly fresh coffee is worth it!

I work in Parramatta in Sydney, and most coffee is pretty ordinary. There's a little greek patisserie which makes really nice coffee, which I frequent.

My pet hate for coffee is making a long black by putting 2 shots worth of grounds in the group, then hitting 'go' until the cup is full :puke:. Oh, the other thing that drives me nuts are those who feel a hot black should be about 350deg, and full to the brim. Can't drink it and cant move it! 2/3 full with moderately hot water is all I need :cool:
Cheers,
Dave

[BobL]

My pet hate for coffee is making a long black by putting 2 shots worth of beans in the group, then hitting 'go' until the cup is full . Oh, the other thing that drives me nuts are those who feel a hot black should be about 350deg, and full to the brim. Can't drink it and cant move it! 2/3 full with moderately hot water is all I need

I agree, there is a real art to making a decent long black.

Although even I will occasionally drink a long black, in a strict coffee taste sense a hot long black has few redeeming features and is why it is not common in Italia. They call it "Cafe Americano" which is said to be a polite way of them saying "Coffee Stupid".

Adding hot (90ºC) water to a shot of espresso in a regular cup or mug quickly destroys the crema and rapidly releases the volatiles from the shot. Adding boiling water not only does this but immediately cooks the coffee as it decomposes some of the sugars and oils making an acrid tasting brew. To maximize the retention of the original coffee taste no more than moderately hot water (about 50º) should be added but this does not suit most coffee drinkers who after a hot drink they can linger over. Even at 50ºC a wide open cup will quickly release the goodies and the longer it sits the more escapes and decomposes. So lingering with a black coffee unfortunately for me means lingering with ordinary coffee.

For guests who ask for long blacks I try putting a dash of cold water in it before adding water from the coffee machine boiler but they nearly all say it's too cold and then want me to nuke it in the microwave! NOOooooooo!

Milk changes all this because it helps bind some of the oils and sugars extracted from the coffee. This is why adding cold milk first is better than adding the hot water and why even steamed milk should be no more than about 60-65ºC.

Give the above, running espresso over ice blocks should retain the maximum coffee taste/content. Unfortunately our taste buds and nose don't operate well below body temperature and some warmth is need to sense all the good bits. It's worth trying this - freeze a cup and run an espresso over a small ice block so it cools quickly - too many ice blocks will dilute the coffee with too much water. Taste immediately - this is the most intense real coffee taste you can get but you won't be sensing it as it is too cold.

This is why maximum real coffee taste is just espresso (not even sugar), all over in 60 seconds and is why Italians don't need to sit down to drink it. For lingering and if you don't like milk there is always the possibility of something on the side, eg water, tea, wine, or my preference, a shot of grappa in the espresso and another to rinse the cup.

Cheers

[Ozkaban]

Interesting Bob. Would explain why many long blacks come with no Crema at all. Though when I make them at home, I boil the kettle and allow it to sit for a little while (have never measured the temp), then add two shots of coffe to it, and have always had plenty of crema.

Oh, and when I say lingering, I mean not drinking it within a few seconds. I'm not just drinking it for the caffiene, but to relax and enjoy the drink for a bit. May not be the pure way of doing it, but that's the way I like it :rolleyes:

Interesting about the milk too, though I find milk diltues and competes with the flavour so much. An Australian cappuccino is 30-60ml coffee and about 170ml milk/froth (as opposed to the 30ml shot, 30ml milk, 30ml froth that is supposed to be in traditional italian cappuccinos...) Milk has a reasonably strong flavour and I just don't like it in coffee.

Cheers,
Dave

[BobL]

Interesting Bob. Would explain why many long blacks come with no Crema at all.
That - combined with stale coffee (beans and/or grinds) and/or over extracted.


Though when I make them at home, I boil the kettle and allow it to sit for a little while (have never measured the temp), then add two shots of coffe to it, and have always had plenty of crema.
If you roast your own you are Waaaaay in front and letting the kettle sit is also a much better way to do it. Same with plunger and instant coffee..


Oh, and when I say lingering, I mean not drinking it within a few seconds. I'm not just drinking it for the caffiene, but to relax and enjoy the drink for a bit. May not be the pure way of doing it, but that's the way I like it :rolleyes:
Sure - I appreciate lingering over a coffee but then again I can take milk or occasionally for my second lingering cup I might have a warm long black. My mornings start with one or two espressos (both double shots) and then I'l have a milky one to linger with, on weekends I might then have a second milky or sometimes a long black


Interesting about the milk too, though I find milk diltues and competes with the flavour so much.
Yep I agree, which I why I prefer a 14g coffee shot with milk. My lingering milky's are only moderately hot and flat: 25 ml Espresso, 30-40 ml cold "half and half" milk and then ~100 ml of moderately hot water. This maximises the coffee taste.

Steaming the milk increases the dissolved concentration of lactose which is why warmed milk tastes sweeter and if you don't like sweetness or lactose that is not going to help either. I tend to just use cold milk.


An Australian cappuccino is 30-60ml coffee and about 170ml milk/froth (as opposed to the 30ml shot, 30ml milk, 30ml froth that is supposed to be in traditional italian cappuccinos...) Milk has a reasonably strong flavour and I just don't like it in coffee.

I agree - 170-180 g of milk and froth is way too much milk and it then becomes more of a coffee milkshake
Most Italian's don't know how to steam milk properly and tend to over steam it.

I also like what I call a minicap, 25 ml 14g (double shot) espressos with 25 ml of lightly textured steamed milk - minimum froth. Yum

[tea lady]

Steaming the milk increases the dissolved concentration of lactose which is why warmed milk tastes sweeter

Ah! A friend and I were talking abou this over a coffee this morning. (Although he has stopped having coffee. It all started when he had a killer flu and then he discovered that he didn't have heart burn anymore. :C He just gets to complain about the tea now. :doh: )

By the way, I had a wonderful coffee at RIPE this morning in Sassafras in the Dandenong Ranges,Victoria. Wonderful food too. Even worth riunning the gauntlet of pushbike riders on the weekends. :rolleyes::D

[jimbur]

My worst coffee is not so much a horror story as a bit of time travel.
We were driving up in the wimmera and noticed a sign saying "real coffee". We went in and ordered two coffees. Instant coffee from a catering sized tin with undissolved lumps and the spoons still in the mugs. Served to us at chipped laminex tables.
Turned out that the "real coffee" related to a brand of ice-cream.
Cheers,
Jim

[Ozkaban]

Turned out that the "real coffee" related to a brand of ice-cream.
Cheers,
Jim

Coffee ice cream would have been worth the stop!!! That Connoisseur Cafe Grande ice cream is unreal :2tsup:


T...letting the kettle sit is also a much better way to do it. Same with plunger and instant coffee..

Good idea... will try it next time i do plunger



I also like what I call a minicap, 25 ml 14g (double shot) espressos with 25 ml of lightly textured steamed milk - minimum froth. Yum

Kinda like a longer than standard mac. I tried it at lunch - it was quite enjoyable. Much more intense flavour for the whole cup. I have dubbed it the 'Cafe Bob' - bobaccino didn't seem right :doh:, and shal be a fixture from now on :2tsup:

Cheers,
Dave

[BobL]

Coffee ice cream would have been worth the stop!!! That Connoisseur Cafe Grande ice cream is unreal :2tsup:
Good idea... will try it next time i do plunger

Coffee icecream YUM :2tsup:

I once had a Coffee icecream affogatto with crushed carmelized sugar wafers and a drizzle of Kahlua - Just a tinse over the top maybe:rolleyes:


Kinda like a longer than standard mac. I tried it at lunch - it was quite enjoyable. Much more intense flavour for the whole cup. I have dubbed it the 'Cafe Bob' - bobaccino didn't seem right :doh:, and shal be a fixture from now on :2tsup:

Yep - extra long mac :2tsup:

[BobL]

Coffee ice cream would have been worth the stop!!! That Connoisseur Cafe Grande ice cream is unreal :2tsup:
Good idea... will try it next time i do plunger

Coffee icecream YUM :2tsup:

I once had a Coffee icecream affogatto with crushed carmelized sugar wafers and a drizzle of Kahlua - Just a tinse over the top maybe:rolleyes:


Kinda like a longer than standard mac. I tried it at lunch - it was quite enjoyable. Much more intense flavour for the whole cup. I have dubbed it the 'Cafe Bob' - bobaccino didn't seem right :doh:, and shal be a fixture from now on :2tsup:

Yep - extra long mac :2tsup:

[Ozkaban]

I once had a Coffee icecream affogatto with crushed carmelized sugar wafers and a drizzle of Kahlua - Just a tinse over the top maybe:rolleyes:


Ahh, Affogatos. Yet another coffee that no one seems to know how to serve :doh:

My favourite variant is a scoop of Sarah Lee French Vanilla (or Weiss Vanilla bean), double shot of coffee and a single shot of baileys. Not overly traditional, but sensational :cool:

[Bushmiller]

Adding hot (90ºC) water to a shot of espresso in a regular cup or mug quickly destroys the crema and rapidly releases the volatiles from the shot. Adding boiling water not only does this but immediately cooks the coffee as it decomposes some of the sugars and oils making an acrid tasting brew. To maximize the retention of the original coffee taste no more than moderately hot water (about 50º) should be added but this does not suit most coffee drinkers who after a hot drink they can linger over. Even at 50ºC a wide open cup will quickly release the goodies and the longer it sits the more escapes and decomposes. So lingering with a black coffee unfortunately for me means lingering with ordinary coffee.

For guests who ask for long blacks I try putting a dash of cold water in it before adding water from the coffee machine boiler but they nearly all say it's too cold and then want me to nuke it in the microwave! NOOooooooo!



I have always made a long black by putting hot water in the cup and then the extraction on top. I have done it this way for no other reason than it was how I was taught. I don't know if it helps to preserve the crema and consequently the taste.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

A friend and I were fantasizing about opening a cafe called "the half decent cafe" cos they were so hard to find. How come there are cafes everywhere but they can't make coffee OR tea! :doh:

TL

I am afraid that Leanne and I fell into this trap. Fantasizing about having a glamorous little coffee shop that is. We were offered an opportunity to walk in to an existing business and took it on. Fundamentally we didn't know what we were doing and had had no previous history in hospitality or catering. Leanne was a competent cook and I was enthusiastic. They were our credentials.:rolleyes:

We served excellent quality food, all made on the premises, offered 19 different teas (loose leaf) including 4 green teas and excluding some herbals, an excellent coffee (way better then most), opened 7 days a week and a couple of nights for dinner and in the end hardly made a living from it.

The only thing we were not going to do was starve to death:D.

We had a get-out clause in our lease and get out we did before we deceased:(.

In many ways I don't regret this little excursion in our lives, but I would not do it again and I would certainly explain to anybody contemplating this life how exacting it is.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

BobL

Re posts 32 & 33.

I laughed:D.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Though when I make them at home, I boil the kettle and allow it to sit for a little while (have never measured the temp), then add two shots of coffe to it, and have always had plenty of crema.




Dave

In principle, the way I used to do it too. One shot for a cup two shots for the mugs (ceramic fluid recepticle, not the customers:wink:)

Regards
Paul

[shedman]

I too am a combined addict being hooked on woodwork and coffee. I am at present tasting the range of coffee bean supplied by the Cleanskin Coffe Company in Brendale near Brisbane. I was drawn to this company because they produce a blend specially for the fund raising activities of a group of Ambulance people in QLd who are raising money for the Jamie Jackway foundation.

Jamie was a qld paramedic attached to the helicopter unit in Townsville. On the way down on the winch to boat with a patient on board the cable snapped and Jamie was dropped to the deck ending up a paraplegic. My interest in this was aroused as I am a volunteer ambulance officer.

Anyway enough of that I was saying am tasting the range of coffees this company produces and am very impressed. Their range is all subtly different to each other and full of flavours.

I make my coffee using a Vibiemme expresso machine that has proved to be reliable and consistent over three years unlike my previous two Saeco machines.

[artme]

Wanted a cup of black coffee with lunch in Ballina Yesterday.The young fellow had not been taught how to make a larger coffee and completely stuphphed the whole operation.

Young lass (waitress) came to the rescue and I wound up with a pretty good brew,

Apparently these pubs just put machines in and then just let the staff learn from each other!:o

[Bushmiller]

"I want a coffee and I want it hot. Real hot!"

This is the cry that is dreaded amongst coffee makers. Why do we want a drink that is too hot to drink and will take the lining off your tongue and the skin off your throat?

Our answer to this problem was to take a cup, which is already warm having been kept on top of the coffee machine and fill it with hot water, also from the machine. Then we nuked it in the microwave for a minute, which superheated the cup itself. Then chuck out the water and proceed as normal.

The effect of this was to minimise the heat transfer from the beverage to the cup. The coffee extraction is still too hot for the human throat and without heat being transferred to the cup it seemed to satisfy the "hot" brigade without compromising the heating of the milk in particular. Long black and short black were not an issue as those people were not chasing hot liquid anyway.

Regards
Paul

Regards
Paul

[Jack E]

I have the EM6910 and the EM0480 conical burr grinder.
I don't consider myself a coffee snob, I just make my coffee the way I like it, at least once a day and I have it down pat to my tastes.

I heat the machine, purge the steam and stretch the milk.
While doing this the porta filter (?) is in the group head warming up.
I then grind directly into the porta filter, fit it to the group head and extract immediately.
I don't use a bumper, I just scrape the coffee from the basket and flush it down the drain.

Even though I have a conical burr grinder I am lead to believe a flat grinder like the Mini Mazzer is much better.

I have also visited coffee plantations in Guatemala and was about to buy some beans but they then told us that 80% of their beans went to Starbucks so I didn't buy them.

I visited the States soon after Guatemala and had coffee at Starbucks, it wasn't bad.
Don't fall for the hype, not all Starbucks is bad, but it is bad in Australia.
They must use different beans here.

[BlIss]

I have the EM6910 and the EM0480 conical burr grinder.


Don't fall for the hype, not all Starbucks is bad, but it is bad in Australia.
They must use different beans here.

I have enjoyed and made many coffees on the EM6910 and still have a RED one at work that has been badly abused but still keeps going strong....

As to the StarBucks and many other chains...

Beans and Grinders are important along with machines that are well maintained; however even with the best, if the staff are not correctly trained. Then the beans / Grinder and Machines are useless. And from what I see and experience, most of the issue comes back to poor training and a lack of a true understanding of the bean and what makes a real espresso :C


We will not even think about what many do to the milk :o:o

[BobL]

We will not even think about what many do to the milk :o:o

A mate of mine has a good term for the action often used - ie glazed faraway look in their eyes, holding the jug in a half-closed fist and jiggling it back and forth . . . . . .

[BobL]

Brief but expensive coffee story in the post.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f122/travel-snaps-117545/

Read from about post 13 onwards

[BlIss]

Looks like the man has done teh deal...

Wood and coffee; now for teh wooden modifications to the machine and accessories..

Well done Johno.

[Bushmiller]

I have just remembered something. (It is 10 years since I made coffee in anger with a "proper" machine). We always used to throw away the first two coffee extractions of the day.

The reason being they didn't taste any good. Probably it is to do with the cleaning process. The closest I can liken it to is coating a tea pot (not scrubbing it clean) or seasoning a cast iron frypan.

It seems coffee has to pass through first.

Regards
Paul

[BlIss]

I have just remembered something. (It is 10 years since I made coffee in anger with a "proper" machine). We always used to throw away the first two coffee extractions of the day.

The reason being they didn't taste any good. Probably it is to do with the cleaning process. The closest I can liken it to is coating a tea pot (not scrubbing it clean) or seasoning a cast iron frypan.

It seems coffee has to pass through first.

Regards
Paul

As a young apprentice many yars ago I was asked to make sure every one mugs were clean prior to smoko...

Fresh out of school and the smiles were always on me :roll: as well as a few well know tricks of the time... Blue Sparks for the welders, or when working with the cranes - sent to the store for a "Long Wait - thinking Weight "....

Any way, wanted to do teh right thing and asked my mum what was teh best way to clean stained tea mugs.. "SALT "

So wanting to get the old fallers off my back, got a bag of salt and spent the best part of 1hr scrubbing and cleaning about 15 mugs AND then washed and set them out on teh table. Boiled the big kettle, got the tea leaves all ready and the big tin of condensed milk.

Smoko time came and the machine shop cleaned up and made their way over to the smoko area...

WELL knock me over with a chuck key.... The noise and red faces and bellows... WT.... I bolted with a couple of those just under 50, chasing me well out into the yards...

Crapped my self and it was my dad later that night, at home; that he told mum what happened...

She laughed and told me.. Salt is good to scrub and clean, but like a good baking tray... The old timers like the tannin stain in their mugs a it gives it the tea flavour. Never scrub that stain off..

5 years later on finishing my trade as a Fitter and Turner, I was told I was lucky to not be killed that day AND that some of the old timers were still trying to get the flavour back, in them there tin mugs.

[AlexS]

At a place I once worked, one of the women would, every so often, get sick of the scungy coffee mugs and put them through the autoclave. The screams would go on for a week, but she never learned ... until one day, someone araldited her mug to the shelf.

[tea lady]

At a place I once worked, one of the women would, every so often, get sick of the scungy coffee mugs and put them through the autoclave. The screams would go on for a week, but she never learned ... until one day, someone araldited her mug to the shelf.:rofl:

[tea lady]

TL

I am afraid that Leanne and I fell into this trap. Fantasizing about having a glamorous little coffee shop that is. We were offered an opportunity to walk in to an existing business and took it on. Fundamentally we didn't know what we were doing and had had no previous history in hospitality or catering. Leanne was a competent cook and I was enthusiastic. They were our credentials.:rolleyes:

We served excellent quality food, all made on the premises, offered 19 different teas (loose leaf) including 4 green teas and excluding some herbals, an excellent coffee (way better then most), opened 7 days a week and a couple of nights for dinner and in the end hardly made a living from it.

The only thing we were not going to do was starve to death:D.

We had a get-out clause in our lease and get out we did before we deceased:(.

In many ways I don't regret this little excursion in our lives, but I would not do it again and I would certainly explain to anybody contemplating this life how exacting it is.

Regards
PaulIts OK Paul! I don't think I'm in danger of ever openin ga cafe! :cool::D

At the risk of being banned from this thread, at work I make myself a coffee with instant but put milk in the mug first and stir in the "coffee" then add the hot (not boiling) water! Seems to work at a pinch! Guess I'm not as much a coffee snob as I thought! The tea on the other hand. We're fussy about the tea!:p

[artme]

I like Starbucks coffee grounds!!







































They make great mulch or are a good addition to the compost heap!!!:D:D:D:D

And they are FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!:-

[BobL]

I like Starbucks coffee grounds!!
.
.
.

They make great mulch or are a good addition to the compost heap!!!:D:D:D:D

And they are FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!:-

And they keep slugs and snails away - they don't like the residual caffeine.

[artme]

And they keep slugs and snails away - they don't like the residual caffeine.

I wonder if they make the worms hyperctive?:rolleyes:

[Sir Stinkalot]

I like Starbucks coffee grounds!! ......
And they are FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!:-

Unfortunately somebody is having to pay for those grounds ...... :yuk:

[artme]

Unfortunately somebody is having to pay for those grounds ...... :yuk:

Fortunately I am no longer one of the payers!:roll:

[BobL]

In the search for a better coffee and to protect my coffee machine, which cost ~ 3 times more than my table saw, I decided to upgrade my water purification system. Until now I had been using a twin (sediment and carbon) filter system which produces nice drinking water but does not remove any dissolved calcium from the water. This builds up as scale in the coffee machine boiler and is a PITA to clean.

The new system looks like this
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216579&stc=1&d=1342885360

1 & 2 are the original sediment and carbon filters - our normal filtered drinking water is tapped off at this point
3 is a small reverse osmosis (RO) cartridge
4 is a permeator pump that uses the brine drain from the RO unit to fill and pressurise tank T. The waste brine then drains to waste via the red hose to drain D
CM is the Solenoid that opens on command from the coffee machine and delivers pressurised water from the tank to the coffee machine.
5 is a Deionizer cartridge that provides super distilled quality water for a variety of purposes and processes such as metal bluing (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/my-second-attempt-steel-bluing-155843/index2.html#post1523665).
M is the water quality out monitor.

Can I taste the difference - of course not, :D, but it should protect the machine.

[texx]

very interesting cos i have just had my machine cleaned out because of cal builkd up .
i currently only run through a charcoal type filter straight after the pressure reducing valve on the town water supply , but after a little more than 12 months and after a recent filter change the machine started to play up with help over the phone to the machine tech in brissy i tried afew things to fix the issue but did no good so i had to take the machine to the big smoke , problem turned out to be calcium in a couple of pipes restircting the flow to the boiler ..she is up and running again now but i still have to come up with a better filter system to stop it happening again .
i have been thinking of plunbing it in to the tank water instead of the town water . my coffee guy in brissy gave me the ph number of a guy to ring who had the same problem with his evap air con and fixed it with a magnetic jigger , ( must ring him soon and get some more info on it )
my machine is a BZ35 .. which also reminds me i need to roast today among other things .
see ya

johno

[Ozkaban]

This ones for you, Bob... Amazing setup!

http://www.lsdsports.com/images/blog/2012-02-03-094309-i%20operate%20on%20a%20different%20level.jpg

[Cliff Rogers]

Strewth Bob.... :oo:

[BobL]

Cheers Guys,

While I do perhaps operate on another level I do know several coffee geeks that make me look pretty average. The guy I bought all this water purification gear from has a similar but bigger water purification setup as mine but he has also about half a dozen coffee machines. One machine is customised with a digital temperature control, a shotcam that point up underneath the brew head and displays the extraction on a small LCD screen located on a stand above the machine, and a set of coloured lights that shine out from under the machine that colour change depending on what the machine is doing

Tex, forget about the magnetic thing, my water purification mate is constantly being asked to replace these things with a real water purifier.

[AlexS]

Interesting, Bob. What brand of sensor(s) and display to you have? What parameters are you measuring? Are you logging?

[BobL]

Interesting, Bob. What brand of sensor(s) and display to you have? What parameters are you measuring? Are you logging?

The conductivity meter/sensor is a cheapie (HM Digital) with a TDS range of ~1 to 9990 ppm. As there is a tank involved the flow is not continuous so logging is not that meaningful. The RO water output TDS is around 10 ppm which is pretty good while the deionized water is zero, meaning <1 ppm.

[Bushmiller]

Cheers Guys,

While I do perhaps operate on another level I do know several coffee geeks that make me look pretty average.

Bob

I have given this subject some thought over the last few days, but have been slow to respond. I think I may be turning into an ent, which I suppose is not too out of place for a woodworking forum.

Water for most drinks is quite an important issue. If you look, for example, at the producers of a famous Irish stout and malt whiskeys from Scotland, they place quite high store in the water they use.

So coffee should be no different. I am not totally convinced about demineralised water being the best (except perhaps for the coffee machine) as it has no taste at all. The best water I ever taste comes from a creek down at the property in NSW where we used to live. Completely uncontaminated upstream, (there's nobody there), it is a delight to drink even without any coffee in it:rolleyes:.

Demin water has nothing in it. In fact it is so devoid of anything we use it to cool the condcutors in our generators at work. The water is passed through the hollow conductors of the stator as it is the impurities in water that conduct electricity, not the water itself.

What are your thoughts on the taste aspect? I appreciate that your prime motive was to protect the coffee machine.


Regards
Paul

[artme]

Glad this thread is still alive.

Found a place on the beach at Hervey Bay that serves the best coffee I have tasted anywhere in Qld.

Must check out the standard of the brew served by the bloke in the coffee place near SWMBO's massage therapist.

[BobL]

What are your thoughts on the taste aspect? I appreciate that your prime motive was to protect the coffee machine.

Yeah 90% of this palaver is to protect the machine. The water I am generating has around 10/12 ppm of total dissolved solids (TDS) which is about the same as the low end of fresh rainwater collected from clean skies. The best tea and coffee is generally recognised by the gurus to be made with fresh rainwater but I cannot tell the difference between the taste of coffee made with my plain filtered water with a TDS of around 350 ppm and the water I am generating.