puzzled about regulations re replica firearms [Archive]

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macklin

4th March 2011, 04:46 PM

OK try not to make this too long.

I always thought they were illegal, however I was in Highpoint shopping center
and in the window of one of their shops I saw a large assortment of replica firearms, ie rifles / AK 47 / Thompson sub machine gun / pistols of all kinds.

I must make this very clear they were metal and looked identical to the real thing. Type in replica pistols and you should come up with Gold Coast War Museum a click on collectors armoury and you will see what I mean.

There is another shop in Ringwood that sells the same thing. When I was in Queensland and visited the museum I asked if I could buy one and was told they are illegal in Victoria. A visit to the site last night and I noticed a footnote stating "we can only send replica pistols to an address in Vic/Queensland/WA
:?

I asked at the shop in highpoint and was told they were legal if they have a red plastic tip in the barrel. A visit to the local Police station was unsatisfactory, and an internet search states a permit is required, however it was rather confusing. SO are they legal or not let me stress they they are as close to the real thing as you can get. A visit to the Gold Coast War museum
and you will see what I mean. I wanted to buy 2 and make a rack to put in my billiard room but first I want to know if it is legal. To say I am puzzled is an understatement, they are presumably illegal but I can buy one :rolleyes:

Thanks

Big Shed

4th March 2011, 05:33 PM

See page 7 under Replica Firearms (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.police.vic.gov.au%2Fretrievemedia.asp%3Fmedia_id%3D36984%26status%3Dactive&rct=j&q=replica%20firearms%20victoria&ei=YYZwTYi4NIrEvQO69OS9AQ&usg=AFQjCNHyZ38Q42603wWytBzppCSsSRX0xQ&sig2=0GyAHz1c229uTldK1S75Mw&cad=rja)

If you Google replica firearms Victoria, there are other links, one is to Ebay which also won't allow replica firearms to be sold from Victoria.

macklin

4th March 2011, 05:50 PM

Thanks for reply.

Pretty well what I thought, but does not explain how the shop can sell them.
I went to Ebay and after a search I saw a luger for sale (with 8 bids) plus many other guns ie flintlocks I was so surprised I checked and found indeed they ban the sale (above gun since sold).

However it still does not explain how this shop can sell them legally. it all is very puzzling.

thanks

bsrlee

4th March 2011, 08:12 PM

Oh, it is complicated, and the Victorian Police 'Service' is not making anyones job easier as they refuse to give written answers to queries.

I - suspect - that the shop has obtained, by fair means or foul - some sort of document that states the product they are selling is considered a 'child's toy' and not a replica firearm. In that case, removing or covering the red plastic bit at the muzzle would constitute 'manufacture' of a prohibited weapon/article, as well as possesion.

Just to make things even more poxed up & confusing, NSW has now legislated that an article 'manufactured and sold as a child's toy' is not a replica firearm and there for not a prohibited weapon/article - no provision for any official yes/no decision, once its made & sold as a toy its a toy for ever - I can't really see that one lasting past the first court case where the Police get slapped down by the magistrate, but its currently the law here.

hughie

8th March 2011, 01:46 PM

Are I see you come up against the anomalies of the system.

The rules or laws are made by bureaucrats who have not one wit of a brain and cannot and perhaps will not consider all the ramifications of anything they do or not do and we the great unwashed should never question as they know best.

As for technical issues you raise, well these are far to common to be worthy of contemplation and are mere incidentals on the away to well funded and deserved retirement.

They are of great learning and many of mighty scholarly achievements. Tis I fear that all this may be their undoing for they know more and more about less and less.

Waldo

8th March 2011, 01:55 PM

They are legal if you have a permit. The same rules apply as for owning any gun - that is you need to sit and pass the test to own a replica gun and they still need to be kept within a locked container that cannot be removed from it location, unless it's in a great big gun safe.

Woodwould

8th March 2011, 05:18 PM

I used to restore antique flintlock pistol and long gun stocks and I really enjoyed the whole process of letting-in the barrel, trigger plate, lock plate and pommel; chequering, carving, ageing and finishing the stock etc. I moved to Australia and not knowing any puff-bang collectors here, I didn't give it any further thought.

One day I received a letter from an old acquaintance in England who had purchased an important antique pistol and wanted me to splice a new end onto its broken and badly repaired butt. I said I would be delighted and he sent me the stripped down stock, the trigger plate (less trigger) and the cast silver pommel. They never arrived. Customs seized it all and had a few questions for me. The last I heard my acquaintance was petitioning Customs to return the items to him. :((

I still have my seventeenth- and eighteenth-century stock patterns and intend to make a saw someday with a pistol grip similar to the one pictured below. I'm reliably told though that it would be illegal to do so in Victoria!

fxst

8th March 2011, 11:33 PM

And the ridiculous thing about it all is that the rate of gun crime is still rising as apparently those wise law makers haven't realised that criminals don't care about laws :doh:
Pete

AlexS

9th March 2011, 08:00 AM

And the ridiculous thing about it all is that the rate of gun crime is still rising as apparently those wise law makers haven't realised that criminals don't care about laws :doh:
Pete
Well no, actually, it isn't increasing. Check here (http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp) and plenty of other sources.

fxst

9th March 2011, 01:20 PM

Well no, actually, it isn't increasing. Check here (http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp) and plenty of other sources.

Well sorry but snopes is not what I call authorative in this case as like wikepedia it is open to individuals to enter as they like. :doh: Also every day in Australian papers are more stories of gun related crimes like todays telegraph and WA news yesterdays SA news this morning etc.
As they say statstics are capable of explaining what you want depending on the way a question is asked. As a member of the gun owning public and the controls I have on them I do see these stories almost daily but then I may be seen as biased on this so will say no more.
Pete

Vernonv

9th March 2011, 03:35 PM

Have a look here (http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/vwFiles/CJB98.pdf/$file/CJB98.pdf)then (from the AIC). It shows a decrease in gun crime from 1995 to 2005. Also I believe that the gun crime rate has been dropping for quite some time (it started well before Howard screwed over lawful firearm users/owners).

But you do have a point about guns and criminals. Most gun crime is perpetrated by people who do not posses a firearms license and are using and unregistered firearm.

Vernonv

9th March 2011, 03:41 PM

... intend to make a saw someday with a pistol grip similar to the one pictured below. I'm reliably told though that it would be illegal to do so in Victoria!Are you saying it would be illegal to make a saw with a pistol grip? If so, then sorry but that sound like BS. What about electric drills (they have pistol grips), water spray bottles (they have a trigger), etc?

Woodwould

9th March 2011, 03:52 PM

Are you saying it would be illegal to make a saw with a pistol grip? If so, then sorry but that sound like BS. What about electric drills (they have pistol grips), water spray bottles (they have a trigger), etc?

 I was informed by the police (in the course of enquiries regarding making and selling reproduction pistol/gun stocks for collectors/dealers) that to possess a gun stock or something that could be interpreted as one would be an offence. I was also told that even possessing technical drawings or patterns for such articles could probably land me in hot water too!

Vernonv

9th March 2011, 04:11 PM

I was informed by the police (in the course of enquiries regarding making and selling reproduction pistol/gun stocks for collectors/dealers) that to possess a gun stock or something that could be interpreted as one would be an offence. That sounds a little overzealous if you ask me and I doubt they would even bother (let alone get a conviction) for a pistol gripped hand saw.

I was also told that even possessing technical drawings or patterns for such articles could probably land me in hot water too!This I very much doubt ... what would they charge you with exactly ... possession of gun ?:U

Woodwould

9th March 2011, 04:26 PM

Overzealous; I agree, but that is what was told to me.

Technically, I may be in breach of the law, but unless the police tacked 'possession of illegal drawings' onto a string of other, more serious charges, I doubt if any court would convict me. Still, I'm not about to drive round the local nick with the drawings plastered all over my car.

macklin

9th March 2011, 04:42 PM

Woodwould

9th March 2011, 04:48 PM

RETIRED

9th March 2011, 05:37 PM

I was the original poster and I sent an email and recieved an answer from licensing service-IMD-OIC, BUT I do not know how to insert it in a post, the only alternative I have is to type it out.

ThanksIf it was an email, you can copy and paste.

If in PDF you can put it in as attachment by uploading like you would a photo.

If all that bamboozles you send it to me and I will put it up.:D

macklin

9th March 2011, 06:12 PM

I hope I did this right, unless I have missed something i dont think they fully answered

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your enquiry regarding replica firearms.

Firstly, please note that currently there are no legislative definition for 'replica' firearms. In Victoria, replica firearms are considered as being detailed, working copies of established firearms which can fire, or can be altered to fire. They are considered to be firearms and placed under the same licensing and registration system as real firearms. They are subject to licensing, registration and storage requirement provisions of the Firearms Act 1996 (the Act).

If a firearm has the appearance of an operable firearm, but cannot fire and cannot be altered to fire, it is considered to be an imitation firearm. In Victoria, imitation longarms can be owned with a lawful excuse and imitation handguns are treated in the same manner as operable firearms (i.e. they must be registered and can only be held under a Category 2 Firearms Collectors licence. To be eligible for a Category 2 licence you must first obtain a category 1 licence and maintain the licence for a minimum of 2 years with a minimum of 11 firearms held under that licence).

As of 1 July 2011, due to legislative change, imitation firearms (both longarms and handguns) will be classified as ‘Prohibited Weapons’. Prohibited weapons will only be able to be possessed, carried, used, sold, purchased and/or imported with a Chief Commissioner Approval or a Governor in Council Exemption Order. Registration requirements do not apply to prohibited weapons.

If you have any further queries, please contact Licensing Services Division at [email protected] or 1300 651 645.

Regards,

Licensing Services Division

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: LICENSING SERVICES-IMD-OIC
Sent: Monday, 7 March 2011 11:52 AM
To: Brickle, Trent
Subject: FW: replica firearms

The below e-mail request must be actioned. If a response is deemed necessary, please forward it to: LICENSING SERVICES-IMD-OIC in a timely manner.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jean [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, 5 March 2011 10:54 AM
To: LICENSING SERVICES-IMD-OIC
Subject: replica firearms

If replica firearms are illegal in Victoria, why can i buy replica firearms from a shop in Highpoint
such as AK 47/ Thompson submachine gun/ various pistols/ and rifles. I asked the shop
attendant why they could sell them and i was told if they have a red tip they are legal.

How is it they are illegal but I can buy one, I do not understand.

Would you please explain how this is possible, to make matters more confusing the
Gold Coast War Museum previously stated they were illegal in Victoria but now states
the following " we can only send replica pistols to an address in Vic/Queensland/WA"

Are they illegal or not, do I need a licence or not, if they are illegall how can I buy one openly.

This all seems like total confusion. I might add they are made of metal and are identical to the real
thing. I do not understand.

Hope you reply ???????

John Macklin my question which is at the tailend of the email

macklin

9th March 2011, 06:24 PM

If you look further down my email I think you will find they did not answer my question completely, I am still confused after all this

thanks

bsrlee

9th March 2011, 10:55 PM

You are quite correct - they have cleverly skated around the edges & avoided giving any real answer to your question.

Their 'offical' web sites are also very uninformative in a real sense - I didn't realize that a 'Swiss Army pocket knife' was actually a brush clearing tool - but the Victorian Police seem to think it is, which is pretty standard it seems - 'Everything that is not permitted is prohibited' is supposed to have been official policy in the old USSR, and it seems to be being adopted here by government functionaries across the board.

Put that soap box away I say.....

Ray153

9th March 2011, 11:55 PM

Macklin, this may make it clearer. Legally, there is no class of replica firearm. There is at present a class called imitation firearm, effectively the same thing to a laypersons mind but legally they are different things
If it is either an imitation longarm or a genuine longarm that has been disabled such as firing pin filed off that could be made to fire, then it is a firearm that you need a license to own it.
If it is either an imitation longarm or one that could never be returned to an operable state, then no need for a license. However, you would have to show that you had a lawful excuse to have it such as it is a toy or of sentimental value perhaps.
Handguns are a completely different story though. If it looks like a handgun then it is a handgun and has to be registered and you need a license.
This all changes in july this year when defence of lawful excuse is no longer available to you as I understand it.
As for how a shop can sell the items you describe, they would have to be a licensed gun dealer I suspect.