Outdoor Blind Installation

[LineLefty]

We recently had a prominent company install a premium outdoor blind on our Patio at a considerable expense ($800). Supposedly fully installed.

I come home from work, and its all instaleld fine, except that the anchor hooks that are supposed to be in the ground are sitting on the kitchen table. My wife then explains that we've got to do that ourselves.

These are 10x10cm stainless steel plates which are have a little sunken recess to slip a web strap thru to tighten down the blind.

Now I imagine that the potential windloads on a 3x3m blind will be enormous. Their advice was simply to simply screw the plate directly onto the paving bricks. Surely I'll need something a bit stronger than that? They also kindly supplied us with ungalvanised screws :(

Terrible service. Does anyone have any experience with this process? It's a long shot I know but I really dont think their method is strong enough.

[seriph1]

I think their method....rather their suggested method is BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and anything less than Stainless steel screws are a waste of effort IMHO.

Youre dead right that the SAIL that has been fitted by them will have potentially enormous forces acting on it ...... guaranteed this is why the installers and firm do not fix these items themselves - they would rip out and fly around all over the place, hitting some poor mug on the way.

I reckon fix (weld?) a piece of T shaped steel onto the back of each and quick set concrete them into the ground at your desired points.... I have experienced a sail in our back yard rip away from its moorings - granted it was a pretty lively storm, but still - better safe than sorry ..... (we removed ours altogether with a view to doing the above when we pave)

[bitingmidge]

I reckon the only thing that'd hurt more than getting donged on the nut by a flapping blind, would be getting donged on the nut by a brick attached to a flapping blind.

It may take a bit to do it, but it's not impossible, and in extreme conditions could be very dangerous indeed.

Why not get them back to do it properly?

I guess you've paid them! :mad:

If the pavers are on a concrete base, drill through to the concrete and use some chem-set bolts. If not, half a bag of bag mix should do the trick (in a hole under the paver then fixed as above, or by those little angle bolt thingies that are designed for fixing in concrete, bolt them to the brackets and support them in their finished location till the concrete goes off.

Disclaimer: If you get getting donged on the nut by a piece of concrete attached to a brick attached to a flapping blind you could end up dead, so make sure that the concrete is in a big enough lump, or don't stand near it in windy conditions,

Cheers,

P :D

[seriph1]

chem-sat! that's what I was thinking of!

Even getting donged by the clippie thingie that attaches to the bolt, that attaches to the brick that attaches to the concrete

would hurt

:D

[LineLefty]

Thanks for the replies all, it's given me assurance that their instructions were'nt up to scratch. I need to think about this some more. The plates have four counter sunk holes in them big enough for a 3/8inch bolt.

So this is the plan.

Lift a few bricks, dig a hole and pour concrete to a level just below the existing ground. Drill holes in concrete. Drill corresponding holes in brickPut a mortar base down and lay the brick back.

What I'm not sure of is how do I secure the screws in the concrete. Masonry plugs? Is theres some special peice of ardware design to anchor things in concrete? Or.....do I need to sete threaded rod into the concrete the secure the plate with nuts?

(This'll be my first effort with concrete)

[wombat47]

Presumably this prominent company has a reputation to uphold? And would this prominent company be an Australia-wide concern? I suppose this company might sub-contract to others for the actual fitting of their products and might be pleased (well, perhaps not that pleased) to hear of your experience.

[Theremin]

I would pour concrete, put pavers back on, then drill a hole through both, then use some Ankascrews or Trubolts (see Ramset website) through the paver and into the concrete. It could be hard to get the holes in the bricks to line up with the holes in the concrete if you don't drill them both at once.

[seriph1]

do they have 8 - 10 inch bolts for such a thing that will suit/fit the plate?

I suppose the easiest would be to just toss the supplied plates and go with another fixing system

[bitingmidge]

Easy!

Finish the job and drill the holes through the finished surface into the concrete.

If you can't get bolts long enough, you can get epoxy in a number of forms designed for the purpose, and glue in a threaded rod (booker rod) cut to a suitable length.

Go to your nearest fastener shop and ask for info, or specialist builders hardware..just about all the brands make a suitable product.

Regards,

P

[LineLefty]

Thanks all,

After I pour the concrete, should I put the brick back in while the concrete is still wet or lay it on a mortar base on top of the concrete?

[bitingmidge]

Either will do, as you are going to bolt through the brick in any case.

I would use mortar, because I'm hopeless with concrete and that'd give me a second chance to get it right, but if you can do it without it will work just as well.

Cheers,

P

[Jacksin]

I agree with most of these learned folk, but to ask the installers to come back to do the job properly after the poor advice they gave you would be only inviting disaster.

Pour a decent sized concrete pad BUT allow it to cure before you fix through the paver into the concrete with long fixings or they will pull loose with the load you are going to put on it. Alternatively extend the tie down bracket and pour it in the concrete, but you will have to be precise in setting out, and cut the paver around it
Jack ;)

[seriph1]

just thinking further - OUCH - perhaps you wanna create a female fixing point so tiny feet....and big ones.... dont slice themselves open or trip on any protruding tiedown?

or am I so far off the mark as to be ridiculous?

[journeyman Mick]

Lefty,
maybe you should contact the manufacturer of the blind system and ask them for their recomendations - in writing. Once you've got a fax or a drawing, whatever, contact them again and ask them:
1) are they aware that the installers are not fitting the tie down points
2) will their professional indemnity/product liability insurance cover any injuries caused by failure of the tie down points.
Be interesting to see how quickly they scramble to cover their @rse. Chances are of course that the moment you ring and start asking difficult questions you should see some sort of follow up. My understanding is that their verbal instructions to screw the plate to a paver would make them liable (to a large degree, at any rate) for any injuries or damages caused by the failure of the tie down system.

Mick

[scooter]

Leverage gained by lightly lisping litigious Mick - bewdiful.


Cheers........Sean (Gday, I'm Sean, and I'm a punaholic :) )

[seriph1]

sorry to rain on your parade folks, but I believe potential litigation could be the exact reason they don't fit the tie downs in the first place.

example: company I know of sells a wall mounted cupboard, but do not and will not supply mounting screws. According to them, they can’t cater for the myriad of conditions the cupboard may be fixed to, therefore do NOT give any mounting screws as they may be used incorrectly.

If they did supply screws, which ones should they supply?

If the owner uses the wrong ones, as supplied?.... The company gets sued because buyer assumed the supplied screws were for all wall types - of course he screwed it into mortar because it was easier than the masonry and when he put the 50 kilo tellie on the cupboard it fell off...... and so on.


In the end I believe it would be better to get advice from folks around here and use your noodle to work out what's best - litigation means someone/thing was hurt or damaged – this a bad ..... threat of litigation may be seen as a further reason to NOT help, as any advice given and not followed perfectly could be seen as the advisor’s fault for not being clear enough etc etc.

Which brings us full circle - the guys should’ve fitted the suckers themselves and done so in a fit manner

Calling the firm and requesting they return and complete the job is probably the best thing to do - and escalate the call until satisfied...... Personally, I would’ve thought they’d simply adopt the principle when fitting the blinds: "you win on some you lose on some"

On straightforward they walk away knowing all is well and pocket a few extra bikkies..... if there's a more difficult fixing situation, it just gets handled and the added brains-pace and time required means they have spent a wee bit more though ensured their reputation remains first class

man what a sermon! Ok, I am off to machine something - CYA

:D

[journeyman Mick]

Steve,
they supplied screws and (verbal) instructions to fix the plates to the pavers. If Lefty does so and there is an accident due to the failure of this method of attachment they would be liable. My suggestion was simply that this was used as leverage to get them to rectify/complete the installation. If you end up in court the only people that win are the lawyers, I certainly wouldn't suggest going down that track! From previous experiences I've found that polite but firm requests, with an ace up the sleeve will generally get a satisfactory outcome. My preferred ace up the sleeve is withheld payment. ;) At very least try to pay for stuff witha credit card as the CC company will often do a lot to help.

Mick

[LineLefty]

just thinking further - OUCH - perhaps you wanna create a female fixing point so tiny feet....and big ones.... dont slice themselves open or trip on any protruding tiedown?

or am I so far off the mark as to be ridiculous?

OK,

Once again thanks all for the discussion. I didn't really want to contact the company and wait for them to come out again....I just did it myself.

This is what I did.

The bracket (which is female) was set in concrete at the same level as the top of the pavers. Rather than screws I got ome 1500m counter sunk bolts and secured then to the plat with nuts. Then at the bottom of the bolts I secured some 2cm wide 3mil steel plates that I'd drilled to receive both screws. This was done twice for each bracket which has 4 bolt-holes.

It's all been connected and seems pretty strong. Although I'm concerened that the galv 3mm steel will rust to nothing.

[GCP310]

Probably too late to comment, But I have just installed the exact thing at home using the clear blinds that bunnings are selling. unfortunately they dont sell nor suggest a method of tiedown, so i ended up at my local marine shop and purchased 8 stainless D handles that finish flush when not being used. i also picked up some stainless fixings from them ast they were so much cheaper than bunnings.

i ended up cutting a rebate into the concrete using a diamond blade on my angle grinder ,then fixed the handle into the concrete with red plugs and the stainless screws. I made sure that i used stainless on everything as i wanted it to last not to mention the nice professional finshed look it gives.

i will post a photo later tonight for others who are looking at fitting these blinds

G

[mic-d]

after you have set the pavers on a concrete base drill right thru them and use ramset ankascrews. They are the screws with a hex head and a widely spaced helical thread. They have massive holding power and you don't need to worry about epoxy, plugs etc and are prettier than dynabolts...

Cheers
Michael

[GCP310]

heres what i used. Pretty neat finish IMHO.

G

[Iain]

Another secure form of bolt is the excalibur, it's a double threaded self tapping device for masonry.
I have used them in several application including a carport I built and found them to be exceptional.
They come in several lengths and diameters and are available from Bunnies, they are not cheap but they work very well.
As a bonus they can also be removed and screwed back in using the thread they have cut for themselves.
As an aside on the legal aspect and ratings of products, I have installed four wall mounted TV brackets at home, they come with mounting hardware, wallplugs and screws which they claim will support 30kg.
Given that these plugs are for plasterboard my question is will the wall support 30kg.
I used techscrews directly into studs.