renovate or rebuild

[jackiew]

I have a dilemma with what to do with my house... I really have to make a decision whether to live with its many defects until I can afford to knock it down or whether to slowly attempt to make a silk purse out of my sows ear.

Its a West Facing 1920's weatherboard which has been further clad with aluminium. I have no idea what state the weatherboards are in underneath. The house has no redeeming architectural features ... it was obviously built by someone who wanted somewhere to live and didn't want to spend a lot of money on it. I don't think its features have been ripped out ... i think they were never there in the first place. In style it is vaguely California Bungalow with the front living room set forwards and a deck under the roofline in front of the entrance and the front bedroom.

It has no insulation other than some in the roof. it has effectively no heating. the hot water system is out of the ark. The previous owner blocked up the chimney ( which steals an entire corner of the room ) and removed the chimney at ceiling level before re-roofing. What is left of the brickwork appears to be held together by sand. The central hallway terminates at the bathroom ( great placing that opposite the front door ). Only one of the rooms has plaster ( rotten ), the others have butt jointed masonite cladding. The bathroom is approximately 70s, the kitchen 1950 or 60s. There is no view into the back garden as they enclosed the rear verandah ... (the floor of which slopes fairly wickedly) to give access to the toilet, laundry and third bedroom which my son assures me is freezing - I have no reason to disbelieve him as the rest of the house is also freezing in winter ( and stinking hot in summer ).

A recently renovated home in the street (same size block and orientation ) went for nearly double the amount I paid for my house so I don't think there is any danger of overcapitalising whatever I do - provided its well done, especially as its an attractive tree lined street and tram, train, basic shops and a good primary school are all within easy walk. Homes in the fairly short street include 2 storey, single storey with 2 storey extensions and extended single storey - the houses appear to be from every era from 1920's to 1990's.

I would like a more modern layout and to see my back garden but I don't want to lose my entire garden to an extension. The block slopes North to South and West to East so extending to the rear would require a step down ... there are possibilities of a 2 storey extension at the rear. Or I could just tear the lot down and build a sensibly sized 2 storey new home ( not a mcMansion!!! ) with a design which recognises the block orientation ( and has heating and insulation :) ).

Demolish or renovate ?

[echnidna]

Its really a matter of doing cost comparisons of your various choices balanced against the final values of each scenario. You need to factor in the cost of alternate accomodation where appropriate.

[Dusty]

Sell. Move into a more modern, less of a hassle type house.

From the sounds of it your house would be great for a chippy to do up. Someone who doesn't have to outsource a lot of the work. With what you've described, if you pay contractors to do each step of the reno you'll be paying top dollar all the way.

From what you have said, with the (renovated) house up the road going for double what you paid for your joint, it still might be well worth your while getting it appraised, as you probably will of already made a fair quid on it.

Good luck with your decision making. (I don't envy you)

[Iain]

We were in a similar dilemma, an old farmhouse that was built in the 50's by two brothers who were cockies.
They had an old weatherboard place on the property and took a lot of the fittings out of it.
We bought the place as it had a substantial amount of land for the horses, our last place had none and agistment was costing heaps.
We bit the bullet and started to replace just about everything, so far we have spent about $40K but an apprsaisal has shown a capital increase of over $300K.
The biggest headache is the plaster, the old horsehair type, it is rippled and just generally awful but a bit at a time we are getting by, there was no heating, no, no true, just an open fireplace which was not effecient, in went a Ultimate insert and a reverse cycle aircon split system.
The kitchen comprised of a sink in the corner and an overhead cupboard, gutted the lot and have a new kitchen with all new SS appliances from Blanco (auctions at Grays, change out of $2K).
Bathroom on the go at the moment spa is going in today while SWMBO is at the races (why? don't we have enough horses at home?).
Vanity is in and extension is commencing after Xmas.
Total cost, $200K for dump at auction, $40K for bits, 6x12 metre workshop, electricians, plumbers etc and anticipate about another $20K next year for extension and bits.
We will do all the lining with plasterboard, flooring etc, just the sparky and plumber for the new ensuite and laundry.
At the moment it is warm or cool depending upon season although we need insulation when the extension is done, the kitchen works, the kids don't :mad:, hot water will be replaced soon with solar and we love the place.
Just my 2c worth plus GST.
Consider wisely given your location.

[craigb]

I reckon that you should trash it and build the house you want. It'll probably work out cheaper too.

In Sydney, I think the rule of thumb is it costs around $1800/sq metre to rennovate compared to about $1400/sq metre to build new.

I would imagine it's somewhat similar in Melbourne.

[Wood Borer]

Sounds a bit like our place apart from the Aluminium cladding. We keep talking about renovating though rather than re-building. I reckon I can do most of the renovations it's just a matter of when :rolleyes:

[silentC]

Knock it down.

Been through it three times now. It's fun etc. doing them up but these days there's too many traps for owner-builders to fall into. If you're going to pay someone, you might as well build new. Shouldn't be any harder to finance a new place than to finance a reno.

Only problem is you need somewhere to live in the meantime, so factor in rent, removals, storage as well. If you renovate, you might need to do that anyway - depends how extreme you go. People across the road from me moved out for 2-3 months while theirs was being done.

Renos are always a compromise and you never know what problems you are going to find as you go along. New places have their problems too but at least you can chase the builder over it. Unless you go owner builder, in which case the buck stops with you.

It's only money and life is too short. Let someone else worry about it.

[PaulS]

I just had a brain wave, (it must be the coffee kicking in)

Why don't you have a poll, it certainly is the time of year for polls and elections. Then your decision would be so much easier.

I'm with silent on this one, sounds like there isn't really anything endearing about the present house

[himzol]

I think Silent has it right on the money,

We have decided to just this, we will wait a couple of years until my son has finished high school before we do any demolishing and construction. Gives us plenty of time to work out what and how we want the new place to be.

In the mean time we are just going to do maintenance projects (if something is falling off I'll nail it back) and try and upgrade things in the Garden.

Of course if a bushfire comes along and moves our plans up a couple of years :rolleyes: .

Himzo.

[Grunt]

I'm part of the <i>Silent</i> Majority.

Since your house has no period features I don't see any reason to keep it. I renovated a house in Brunswich about 6 years ago. The only thing we kept was the front two rooms because they had stained glass and one had a nice bay window. We had to restump, new flooring, new plaster, new roof and new wiring. It would have been cheaper for me to build from scratch but I would have lost the period features.

If you try a reno, the end result will be a compromise.

[Zed]

I reckon you should knock it down too - contact masterton or one of those other mobs. they do packages where they'll knock down the old joint and build a new one for anything between 130-500K to your desing or one of theirs or modified to siut.... cant go wrong..... you may want to contact a demolisher beforehand and they can salvage whats in the house first (eg hidden timbers of worth etc....)

the beauty of this is you dont have to get your own hands dirty and the pro's will knock it up pretty fast for you. of course you need to have the money up front and also have somewhere else to live for 6 months or so...

[seriph1]

I believe I know the exact home youre describing and feel it may be worthwhile to renovate and modify to your needs, but without more information cannot go further, other than to say I have done the same project and achieved a most liveable home that once sold, fetched a very good price. it was a lot of work because I was unclear what kind of home I wanted.... now as an older and allegedly wiser man, I would love to have another CallaBunga to work on - AND - the plainer the better! Mine was a 14.5 squares plain jane and when sold, was a 23 square home with double mezzanines, large French country kitchen, original leadlights everywhere - double front bay windows and so forth. Let's see some pics

Cheers

ps. I will be happy to have a conversation about your place with a view to offering some insights into what may be possible

[IanA]

Whether the job is economically worthwhile may depend on how much labour you put in yourself. Ultimately you need to balance this against the outcome.

If you think you may only live in the house for a few years and then sell it, you should probably discount the hope of making it perfect. Be careful about how much you spend, and look only to potential short term capital gain.

On the other hand, if it is likely that you will live there for many years the house needs to satisfy your needs. In this case probably a demolition is the way. Given that it sounds as though there is little appeal to the current house.

If you consider the option of putting in a decent slab of your own labour then this could also be true for building from scratch.

Look at your lifestyle, now and in the future, time with family and friends, and economics.

It is really quite simple. :D

[namtrak]

I have an unashamed bias for renovation - I would renovate two sticks into a 3 bedroom house given half a chance. I think we tend to place a lot of emphasis on the fiscal importance of work on houses, to the detriment of the more altruistic outcomes. However, with my philosophy you are never going to be joining the landed gentry. Best of luck

[silentC]

If you think you may only live in the house for a few years
Good point. If you do an owner-built renovation or new house, you are required to provide home owner's warranty insurance if you sell within 7 years (I think, check this - was 5 when I did mine but I heard it has changed in NSW) and you have to guarantee the work for the same amount of time. The insurance covers the new owner, not you but you have to pay for it.

If you're going to stay there for longer than that, it doesn't matter.

[IanA]

Silent has raised a whole new issue. The magic figure for owner/builders re warranty insurance is 6 1/2 years.

The usual procedure is to obtain a detailed report on the dwelling and then submit the peport plus details of any building permits and the relevant inspections to the insurance company. The insurance company will then decide how much premium you will need to pay. Not cheap!!!

If you are replacing damaged/old materials with new equivalent materials the work is considered as repairs. No building permit required and no warranty insurance
The notable exception is the re-stumping. This definitely requires a building permit.

Altering the structure in area or height (eg adding on a room) is not considered as repairs. Usually, demolishing a portion of the house and then re-building it is treated in the same way.

Talk to the building surveyor at your local council. His advice could save you grief further down the track.
Also talk to a planner at the council. There is a possibility that external alterations may also trigger the need for a planning permit. Especially going 2 storey.

As I said earlier, "It is really quite simple." :D :D

[capedcrusader]

Only one of the rooms has plaster ( rotten ), the others have butt jointed masonite cladding.

Sounds like the same dick used to own my Qld place.
Id look at it this way: you obviously bought the place because it was at a good price resulting from an inherently huge potential for improvement. Why waste that potential? Dont forget that the $1400/metre squared building cost also includes the 40% head contractor markup per metre squared on the already marked up (ie: over the cost of materials) subcontractor cost that youll save if you do it yourself. If youre basically happy with the fact that its weatherboard not masonry and are ok about the basic layout and the framing is in sound condition then why knock it over?
Youve basically got a blank canvas to work on and if youve got nothing else youd rather be doing theres no reason why you shouldnt do it yourself - if anyone else can do it so can you - especially repair work. Put the period details in yourself. The bungalows (that I lived in down there) interior detail was just dark stained architraves/skirting (very simple lambs tongue mouldings) and glued cast plaster on the ceilings. Plaster cornice is around $4.00 per metre. Weatherboards cost 3.5 bucks a metre! Thats nothing! Buy some old cedar doors / fireplace surrounds etc from a wrecker whos just taken apart someone elses old house for a couple of grand and is now selling off all the pieces not so cheaply. Buy reproduction carpets and tiles (ie:authentic period styles).
Youre also going to need a ute. Might I suggest a late 70s vintage F100. For 8 grand youll get a ute thats probably been sort of looked after with a 351 and a truck size steel bullbar that would be perfect for driving around the eastern suburbs in. Get power steering though unless you want to develop arms the size of a truck drivers.
Just plan what youve got to do and resolve the details (ie:do a scale drawing) before you start. You might want to do some quantity surveying too so you know the total cost. Youd want to go about doing extensions/structural changes by the book however.
Whatever you do dont sell it within seven years to SilentC.
But if you prefer new brick Georgian Rescode houses and youve got the potential for a huge mortgage then I guess it would be best to start from scratch.
Just trying to offer some encouragement.

[IanA]

The capedcrusader used the "R" word. :mad:

Seldom have the legislators managed such a thorough and unmitigated stuffup as Rescode.

There's enough material here for a whole new post, but I'm not sure I want my blood pressure that high.

Jackiew, you may find that if you knocked your house down and then tried to rebuild it identical to the original it may not be permitted!!! Absurd, but unfortunately true.

As I said earlier, talk to your local building surveyor and planner during the long process of assessing your options.

[Marc]

Forget renovating a house like the one you describe, it is not worth the hassle. You will spend heaps of money, lots of time, and end up with a house that will still be worth the price of the land. When you sell the new owner will then demolish and build new, and he will make the money.

If you like to try your hand at renovating buy an inner city town house with a original and definite stile and give that a go.

Building versus renovating must be a cold accountant decision unless you have money to burn and dont mind losing 50k or more and 2 years of your life. And don't forget that building "insurance" is an oximoron. Such insurance is not to cover you, it is in fact insurance for the buyer. If somthing goes wrong or it is percieved by the insurance company to be your fault, they will pay the buyer no questions asked and then chase you to coff up the money. Nothing protects you, the builder, and they will only give you insurance if you have a property as collateral.

In today's depressed Re market it is worth to chase for a bargain rather than going into building. If you have questions about properties try this forum http://www.somersoft.com/forums/index.php?
It is full of property investors who will volonteer expert advice.

[capedcrusader]

You will spend heaps of money, lots of time, and end up with a house that will still be worth the price of the land


Worth land value to you maybe Marc.
The Melbourne market might be a bit different to the Sydney market but Im not an expert.

[seriph1]

Everyone makes excellent points

except the original poster - are you still out there!?????

:D

I would like to see some pics of the home - my 120yr old Victorian has butt joined masonite in the front rooms and it is invisible - only discovered what it was when I drilled through it.

We need more info!

[Iain]

Original posters house is in a predominately California Bungalow area, if I am on the right side of Maroondah Hwy (Whitehorse Rd).
To renovate could be more fiscally attractive in the future than rebuilding.
Our place is in the sticks and I don't care but I like the brickwork and bugger the expense.
Horses for courses.

[jackiew]

thanks for all the responses guys, its nice to see that your comments have echoed the deliberations that i've been making for the past few months as I've oscillated pendulum like between the two options.

I had an archicentre architect do a "potential design" for me about 6 months after moving in. The architect incorporated the things that I'd requested but he

a) ignored the fact that I didn't really want to lose too much of my garden
b) ignored the slope of the land - the proposed extension would have had a floor level about 4 ft above the top of the fences between me and next door.
c) located the laundry so that I would have needed to take sandwiches on my trip to get the washing out to the line
d) put the requested water tanks in a location that would have meant either the tanks would be tiny or I'd need a ladder to climb over them with washing.
e) wouldn't look up in the attic to assess whether going up was an option.

So I have a nice pretty coloured plan to show people if I ever have to sell the place unrenovated but I probably wouldn't go with his design. Of course if he'd been able to design me a tardis ( small on the outside - huge on the inside I still probably wouldn't have been satisfied :) ).

I like being in a location where I can walk to work ( I don't really gloat about my lunches in my garden to my colleagues who have long commutes :D ), driving into the city in the evening isn't a big drama etc etc so I'm not looking to make a profit and move on quickly. I suspect that I could ( as they did along the road ) make more money that I spent if I renovated but I also suspect as others have suggested that with a significant amount of asbestos around the place and a strong probability of nasties hidden under the masonite that I might be letting myself in for more than I bargained for if I renovate as well as having my room sizes dictated by the existing structure of the home ( the approach taken by the architect ) to minimize costs.

I console myself with the thought that I'm extremely fortunate to have a house to worry about.

[seriph1]

thanks for responding!

Your dilemma of not feeling listened to by an architect is all-too common. Unfortunately the specialist field of architect-who-listens is still an emerging one in this country - things like: dealing with people's needs respectfully while imparting the designer's greater understanding, are practices many in this area don't yet get.

There are a whole bunch of reasons why, but it's 7:50 a.m. and I haven’t had coffee, so I might slip off my soapbox and hurt my ego :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

My thoughts on your thoughts (I think)

Attic access is something that enabled me to turn my home into a practical, space-efficient one. Asbestos and other nasties are irrelevant if you want to stay there - you get them out .....once.....if that's what's needed and get on with enjoying your home.

Walking to work - my wife already hates you - she had a 1hr10m commute each way as we live country and she works city....but don't fret - she hates me too who works from home when designing. (never mind that I do horrendous K's in my other role)
Seriously, walking to work is a huge consideration for many people when buying/renovating as it represents massive savings in time and money - both of which can go into the home.

I feel it’s unlikely you will over-capitalise on your home if you renovate with care and decent reality checks along the way. After all, if it’s in the location you love, and becomes the home you truly desire, then where's the downside even if you do spend a few extra dollars on quality or quirk? You will be happy.

Money is of course a huge consideration, though in context of that, someone once told me "if you pay a too much for something and it does the job, all you have lost is some money - which is certainly replaceable - if however, you become consumed (as I did) with saving money, you may never enjoy the ownership of the thing you desire as the opportunity to purchase it may disappear, or its cheaper replacement will always haunt your purchase" How's that for convoluted for a Saturday morning!

You have a slope on your land!!!??? Lucky bugger :D So much can be done to get full enjoyment from that! Without seeing it, I can’t think what, but perhaps that section underneath could be excavated and the tanks put there – invisibly. Perhaps you could have a lovely stair taking you to a downstairs living space. Or maybe it could become a living space, next to a stunning master bedroom that opens through French doors onto your back garden. Your ensuite off said bedroom could have a skylight that lets in the sun’s dappled light through a canopy of leaves from the Oak tree in the back yard (and so on….heh)….. and, space provided, could sport a nice compact laundry as well……

BTW My CallaBunga was called the Tardis by my friends, due to the dual mezzanines and attic storage space.

OK it’s REALLY time for coffee ….. I am scared to even re-read this

:D

Have fun and the offer stands to have a conversation with you about your home…..just PM me if you want to.