Plaster & Lathe Walls - Plasterboard over or remove?

[Beep Beep]

Hi All. I hope you can give me some much needed advice.
We have just bought a 1920's weatherboard in great need of TLC. We have grand plans to make this our family home and really need some advice on how to make our renovation dreams come true.....

We have three very large rooms in the front of our house, all have the old mottled plaster over lathe up to a high picture rail (11ft ceilings). These walls & ceilings have suffered over time due to movement and a leaking roof. The house has been re-stumped and a new roof put on (approx 5 years ago) but the internal damage remains - The walls & ceilings are cracked and/or warped slightly. The skirting boards seem fine but need sanding/painting. The cornaces are plaster and are cracked. We are planning on sanding & polishing the existing timber floors (baltic we believe, currently hidden under carpet). We want to make this house look "new again".
My first question.
Should we remove the plaster and/or lathe then put up new plaster board?? (we hear this is a messy job) OR Should we just Plasterboard straight over the top??
also, if we do the later, what affect would this have on the skirtings and door frames?
We are first time renovators and are willing to learn - fast.

[nt900]

Have a look at this thread for something related.<O:p</O:p

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=9929 (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=9929)<O:p</O:p

If the plaster is damaged, remove it. Think about insulating the external walls now the opportunity presents itself, I even insulate the internal walls for acoustic reasons. Once plaster and lathes are removed, you would need to trim the door and window frames to factor in the thinner walls, or as I did, I hung two layers of 10mm plasterboard on each side of the walls.
<O:p</O:p
If you can salvage the skirtings and arcs, I would. In my home, although the plasterboard is very crisp and new, the aged (read dented) architraves can give the impression of some age in the house, or maybe you don't want this.

Good luck, a lot of grief and joy coming your way.<O:p</O:p

[johnmc]

How bad is the damage to the walls/ceilings ? I would look at the possibility of repairing the cracks first.

If you think that they cannot be adequately repaired I would remove the old walls and/or ceilings and replace with new plasterboard. You are right in saying that removing old lath and plaster is a messy job.

Maybe if you post some photos of the problem areas we could get a better idea of your problem.


I guess it would be possible to fix plasterboard directly onto the old walls. You'd obviously have to remove the old skirting, architraves and cornice. You also would want to make sure that you screw the plasterboard into studs/noggins so you would need long plasterboard screws (you could get away with screwing it into the lath). Your exisiting door jambs will be out by the width of the plasterboard (twice if you do rooms on both sides of an internal doorway.

[barnsey]

IMHO the mess you create now will be painless compared to the likely headaches you could have in the future. :(

I would get rid of the lath & plaster all together. plaster cornices and period features are all available today that enables you to recreate the period if you want to. ;)

Order the skip and borrow the biggest barrow you can find and get into it :D :D

My 1929 house was one of those that was done in fibrous plaster. The effort to replace it was so much better in the finish.

[echnidna]

Well I would go against the poular trend on this BB and just fix plasterboard over the top of the old plaster. You would need to rip some 10mm timber strips to pack the door jambs and window frames so that the architraves and skirtings fit properly when replaced. This will give you far stronger walls than you would end up if you remove the laths. And be a lot quicker than stripping the walls back to studs.

[seriph1]

Hi and a HUGE welcome to the forum - you will find a wealth of info here.....

I agree with all the comments offered and have (depending on the house, budget and circumstances) advised clients to do both or a combination.

In my own 1920 Calabunga in the lounge room I only took the plaster off the outer walls, then removed selected lathes and placed insulation in the walls..... the internal walls I covered with timber lining boards (NOT pine lining!), but plaster would be a similar process. I feel the amount of unnecessary crap you create, not to mention black lung, is huge and while Anthony's method would've produced killer results(especially if there’s a home theatre involved), is at least double the cost and double the work.

I'd be happy to receive a call from you to chat about it further, (email me to get the number; [email protected])and if you’re within Cooee of me (we live in Kilmore but travel extensively throughout Melbourne) I could call out and have a look - not commercially - but as someone happy to share some experiences and offer some ideas. Also, if you'd like to see some pics of the Callabunga I did, they can be seen somewhere on my oh-so-clunky-website

www.geocities.com/seriph1

Just one more thing – Do yourselves a HUGE favour and take your time working through what it is you want to achieve and expect as an outcome from the projects - get clear on what's important to you and decide whether you wish to restore or renovate and how much you care about how original the place will look (mainly from the street, but inside too) after the work is done. I actually bought my Calabunga when I was only 22 but was clear about the things I wanted to do to it……yeah, right! Man how wrong I was! But eventually I got blessed clarity!

It was a wonderful steep learning curve, that added a lot of grey hairs, but I was extremely happy with the final outcome.

Buy HEAPS of books on Californian Bungalows and magazines for Period Home Renovators – devour them over and over – they are worth their weight in gold I reckon. Don’t forget too that they aren’t called Californian for nothing, so explore the American magazines too….. the wonderful Yanks have a range of magazines dedicated to homes of this period and style.

Apologies for the sermon

have fun!

[namtrak]

I would be inclined to do 1 room first - see how you go. Budget about $3000 all up for the room (floor, built-ins, plaster, paint).

I would also rip out the plaster and take the opportunity to not only insulate the walls but also rewiring the house. The new plasterboard will look a treat, you can also get nearly any type of profile cornice from plasterers nowadays as well. Spend some time practising your cornice cuts though!

edit: PS I'm doing exactly this tomorrow and Thursday! Also cutting out internal brick wall etc!!

[glenn k]

I pulled all down but one. Wish I had pulled that one down too, wasted too much time patching it up. With the plaster off you can insulate and straighten the walls. Pack the studs with wood or strips of plaster if you have windows or doors in the wall.

seriph1 I was born in Kilmore so was my great grandfather and the others.

[seriph1]

well get back up here! I need a LOT of help around here and I am running out of excuses with the wife!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[vsquizz]

The tip about re-wiring, or at least repairing wiring is a good one, don't waste it. Find out the condition, get it checked and plan for it.

Whichever way you go with the learned advice above get the best dust protection you can manage.

Oh.. and have fun, and try not to get divorced:D

Cheers

[jackiew]

one wall of my front bedroom was boarded over by the previous occupants and the totally rotten plaster behind eventually came off of the laths ( probably loosened every time someone slammed a door ) and caused the board to bulge out.

I'd go for the rip of off the plaster.

I'd also endorse the "think about what you want to do long term" point raised earlier - no point in getting a room perfect and then realising that what you really wanted to do was knock through into the next room. This is of course my excuse for not doing heaps of things that I'd like to do for the last 18 months because I'm still thinking about what I want the end result to be :o . If there is any possibility of you extending the house - up or out - then you probably don't want to commit yourself to big expense in rooms whose purpose may change totally.

[jaws]

If you remove the lath and plaster you will come across several problems. 1. Back then they didn't put studs at all of the intersecting wall junctions, so to reline your walls new studs will have to go in at these points. 2. the old walls will not be straight to take new plaster, solution is to plane and pack, to plane you will come across hundreds of lathe nails some will come out some will break off. 3. the door jambs will now be too wide when the 10mm plaster goes on,new door jambs, architraves and skirting.4. sometimes the flooring will be just covered by the old skirting, to strip the walls and replce with 10mm plaster you may find the new skirting won't cover the old flooring.5. the dust, the rubble, oh god the dust its more than you imagine.
These are some of the problems.
I would if the walls and ceilings can take it, sheet over, new cornice, sit the plaster on the old skirting and find/make a rebated bead to flush up the plaster/skirt junction, and fit a square bead or one to match the arch profile over the new plaster. Once painted you cant tell if the plaster was put on after.(I've done it before)
Good luck
Cheers Jaws

[flat_tyre]

Do it once, do it properly, remove all the old stuff straighten the walls, replace any old wiring and insulate any exterior walls.....

You will be much happier with the finished job in the longterm, especially if you are planning to live there for some time...

[seriph1]

Welcome to Jaws and Flat_Tyre! All good advice and great to see new folks coming aboard in rapid succession!


JAWS

Interesting idea about placing the small insertion moulding over the skirting board - had never thought of that ..... I note your pic is on a classic Victorian/Edwardian "cusp period" skirting board - would enjoy seeing more pics of that home.

Flat_Tyre is right about doing it once and doing it right, though if it is what you decide, don't live in the home when you do it - the amount of dust and dirt is incredible, especially from the 80 or so years of ceiling dirt......

I would still say that depending on the situation, over-cladding may be a good solution - sure it means packing jambs etc. but done right, once painted they will be invisible. Wiring is another issue, though in homes of this age it is likely to have only one light switch per room and at most, 2 power outlets (often on the skirting board) so it isn’t a huge job to replace provided it is done at the same time...... Of course, additional wiring so the rooms are more liveable, will likely be required, so consideration must be given to that – if you are replastering though, it makes the electrical trades work easier as they can just gouge out where they want to run the wires.

This discussion really takes me back I have to say ...... my mid 20’s and all those weekends of utter filth – some even to do with renovating - just kidding :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

It is all hard work and all worthwhile, but as mentioned by Flat_Tyre, if youre going to live there a long time (ended up 20yrs in my case) do the thing that you feel is the best solution for your long term needs/satisfaction.

By the way - have you received a quote for repairing the solid plaster? One thing that folks don't often consider is that a good solid plasterer can repair walls to a high standard..... sure you may still see that it’s a solid plaster wall, but for me at least, that’s part of the appeal of old homes - too fresh and the warmth may be lost.

Let folks here know what 'burb you’re in and someone may know of a person who can quote

Above all, have fun – you’re building something!

[namtrak]

Jaws, I reckon there are a couple of workarounds for those probs.



1. Back then they didn't put studs at all of the intersecting wall junctions, so to reline your walls new studs will have to go in at these points.


Not a big drama, a cut-off saw and a nailgun can work magic!!




2. the old walls will not be straight to take new plaster, solution is to plane and pack, to plane you will come across hundreds of lathe nails some will come out some will break off.

Or to Batten out the walls, and to fix the plasterboard on those battens - guaranteeing straight walls. You could recess in the battens to compensate for the width of the battens (I had to do this in the ceiling because of crooked rafters)



3. the door jambs will now be too wide when the 10mm plaster goes on,new door jambs, architraves and skirting.

Doesn't effect the architraves and skirting as the size only effects the width of the jams. All I have done is liquid nail a sheet of masonite to the inside of the door jams to cover the end of the plasterboard. This is all neatened up with the architraves and a thick coat of paint!! You could also replace the door jams with wider material - easy enough.



4. sometimes the flooring will be just covered by the old skirting, to strip the walls and replce with 10mm plaster you may find the new skirting won't cover the old flooring.

Which can be accounted by battens of needed.

I like your addition to the skirting boards, I havent seen that before - looks snazzy. On the other hand though I'm not a big fan of the quad that some people add to the bottom of their skirting boards when resanding or relaying floors, I reckon the little extra work replacing the skirting boards is worth the trouble..

Cheers

[barnsey]

Namtrak,

I second your thoughts. You are not suggesting a workaround at all. ;)

Putting plasterboard over a warped frame wall with damaged plaster and laths is asking for a less than good result. :o

The dirty bit is done in a weekend at the most and then as you sugesst just do what you need to do. Packing studs and noggins is easy with string lines set to where you want the finished surface to be. Much better than having a wavy wall and workarounds that are not the real thing. As a matter of interest modern lighting has a remarkable ability to show things like wavy walls up. :eek:

FWIW

[jaws]

Thanks for the welcome Steve, I agree with FT re stripping and redoing up to a point,I don't think it is the only 'proper' way to tackle the problem (with all due respect FT). every job has its own unique features. This one we were fortunate to have wide (as in thick)architraves so when the bead went on, the extra 10mm on the walls didn't take away from the look of the arch.The jambs, archs and skirts were original and in good condition, so it would have been a waste of good material to remove them and probably have to use mdf to replace.we also rewired by punching holes thru the old plaster where needed.It would have been nice to insulate the walls but thats a trade off I guess,beside its got double plaster now.:)
This photo shows the finished arch bead and skirt insertion mould all painted up.
cheers
John

[seriph1]

nice job - baltic floors have come up a treat too! In the USA "trim carpenters" are responsible for all the final bits - the wonderful Yanks do a huge amount of trim carpentry in their homes and it is actually similar to what you did ..... they take square cut board and dress it up with all the fiddly bits to make the final thing - you have all probably seen their treatment on windows and doors. Personally, I like the idea but am glad each time I grab a piece of "complete" skirt or ark and simply fix it

:)

John, where is your place and how old is it?

[jaws]

Steve, I'm a pro builder, this house was built about 1914 a pretty solid house which we renovated completely, I guess thats why I said every situation is different, its not a one off for us, so we alter each job to suit the circumstances, condition of house,what we are trying to acheive, clients budget and our own desire to do a good job.
Being a builder on this forum for me is being in contact with people with ideas, I am learning every day even after 30 years as a builder. I wont disrespect anyone because of their experience or lack of, I'll just put my views and enjoy the comments.
Cheers to all
John
by the way we did strip some lathes, make sure you cover up and use a hose to keep the dust down.

[flat_tyre]

I don't think it is the only 'proper' way to tackle the problem (with all due respect FT). every job has its own unique features.

None taken, I have always found it easier to start from scratch with plastering, as with most things prep is the key, spend a bit of time with that and the rest follows easily and "usually" gives a better result.

But as you say all jobs are different....

" Hi all ", have been a lurker for awhile now, there is some very interesting reading on this forum !!! :-D

[seriph1]

Great attitude john! Would be keen to see more pics of your home - being that age it will have Vic. features as well as Edwardian.... I just can't get enough of periiod architecture - not all of it of course, but a lot! Australian colonial through to Callabunga's - oh and while I think of it, if you happen to have any sexy shots of 1960's cream brick veneers ........ keep em! :)

Do you have time to watch This Old House and New Yankee Workshop etc. on paytv? Those types of shows often have brilliant ideas, especially when compared to our relatively low-end shows here.

Also folks, feel free to PM me if youre looking for period (or reproduction) bits - over the years I have developed some good contacts that I am happy to share.

[Guy]

After my episode of revoving plaster and larthes, i would say, remove the plaser and use the lathes for gluing the plaster board sheets too. On average the old plaster was around 10mm so there should not be any problems attaching anf finishing the architrave.
If you want a sucker to remove the stuff, i would be glad to do it for $1000 including the removal of it.

[capedcrusader]

We want to make this house look "new again".

When you say new do you mean new like an apartment or new as in restored?
Plasterboard has a very mechanically straight look to it that might look a bit incongruous if youre planning to leave the other stuff original. Ive got a Melbourne house built in 1905 with lath plaster walls and I prefer the "hand finished" look that the wood floated walls have. Theres plenty of old books available about plastering - you could run your own simple cornices too but thats probably going a bit crazy. Then again some of those bungalows were originally lined with fibrous plaster sheets so it would no doubt look good anyway. Just a thought.

[jaws]

Steve, I have seen 'this old house' but that new guy annoys the hell out me with his "whats that all about" line every 2 minutes.The old show was better, but they seem to get side tracked a lot and show less building work now, I've pretty much given up on it.
One show I did enjoy on pay was 'Real Renos' wiil Jim Carek the cameras followed him thru various jobs and got both views, client and builder, on how things were going, I could relate to that one.
Cheers
John

[seriph1]

take guy's offer! take guy's offer

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Guy, I reckon at a grand it's bloody cheap!

[seriph1]

Jaws - Hear you loud and clear ..... the TOH team got a pasting for the Bermuda project - full of crap about Bermuda's history, which is all good for getaway, but last time I checked I watch TOH to GET BUILDING INSPIRATION!!!!!!!! Not to decide where I want to go for my next holiday (which happens to be, my shed)

So what they have done for their next show will be interesting - they have actually bought the building theyre renovating. Also, in the States they have off-shoot shows called Ask This Old House, where readers and viewers get their queries about the fineries of building, answered. I don't mind the visits to places like Crown City Hardware and the like as they show how repairs and restorations of period fittings are done - http://www.restoration.com/index.html

In addition, the show has gone to one hour, enabling greater detail to be given.

I know the Jim Carick show well .... the HUGE difference between this and TOH is that it's Canadian and therefore more true to life I feel. I love 'em all and can't get enough of them. Before and After is another - Renovations, still U.S., but with an Aussie host is another (neither of which I have seen this year though) The House That John Built was a British one on Discovery Channel, Sunday arvo's - the guy was renovating a 17th century home - very real and very interesting.

Funny, but in my first posts to this forum I asked for feedback regarding an opportunity I have to create an Aussie show all about making quality timber furniture - the response was not what I had hoped, and I fear that may be an indication of the Australian market for such a show. May pursue it further next year after my colleague has sorted out some things he needs to do.

cheers

[seriph1]

Capedcrusader (IF that's your real name) :) makes an excellent point again about what level of freshness you wish to achieve. Too often someone will buy a stunning old table from a country farm sale and then set about "restoring" it. only to bring it so far back to new that once done, the item has lost its appeal. I must take some pics of my mates home where we repaired the solid plaster..... I believe the (only slightly) visible repairs and "imperfections" in the plastering gave it added character, or at least didnt destroy the character that was there - nearly destroyed the two characters who did the job though! But it was a great learning experience.

[wombat47]

Friends have resurfaced their plaster & lathe walls (hairline cracks, otherwise reasonable condition) with gyprock glued directly on to plaster. It's been up about 3-4 years now and no problems have developed (as yet).

[namtrak]

Yes, Jaws is right: Do what is right for the job. I apply this principle when developing websites. I hear people say a lot about I only ever use Product X because Product Y is useless etc, but I just talk to the client about their brief (as opposed to briefs), their budget and ongoing management - and then use whatever is the most appropriate 'tool' for the job. Same goes for home renos, do what is right for the job.

And Seriph, it all comes down to taste. My taste is reflected in my bias for starting from scratch, but as you say - my preference can be at the expense of 'character'.

[seriph1]

Apologies for the OT all but ......

namtrak - I would love to see some of your webwork! In November I am doing a Dreamweaver course - very excited about it all .... after that will look into flash, though not as a way of annoying people with animated intro's they all end up turning off!

[namtrak]

Offtopic::

I did a freebie for my my daughters school (http://www.stmonicas.net/index.php), which was based on this opensource software (http://www.postnuke.com). I modified it to include a some random image displays and book reviews, amongst other things.

Dreamweaver is pretty good nowadays, and there is a place for Flash. I would consider also coding some html using just notepad and refreshing your browser, this is a good way of learning control over your website. For my 'notepad' I use a text editor called Crimson Editor (http://www.crimsoneditor.com/).

One tip for development down the path is to miminise your use of tables (to nil if possible) and use CSS as much as possible. I am working on a site at the moment where the number of tables is a quarter of what I would normally have.

Cheers

[Ben (TM)]

Offtopic::
One tip for development down the path is to miminise your use of tables (to nil if possible) and use CSS as much as possible. I am working on a site at the moment where the number of tables is a quarter of what I would normally have.

Cheers
Well off topic now - but that was a very progressive view point for 2004. I wish there were more people like you out there....even in 2006

[seriph1]

I for one have made a living from being "out there"
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[doug1]

I suspect I am a disenter here as I feel that this type of home would be more authentic if the lime paster and lath was repaired. There are people who specialise in it and at times do demonstations . If the walls would take the repair then I believe that repair will achieve a better result. Also the thermal characteristics I understand to be better than plasterboard

[katvn]

Okay, I have the same problem, 1920(ish) home. I have heard all sides and you have all given me a lot of insight, but what about the warping? Can that be sanded flat again or "pinned" back up straight?

[rod@plasterbrok]

hi we have a tip with pictures on repairing lathen plaster on our website.

It will show you what can be fixed and what can't and how to do it.

Hope this helps.

Click on profile to get web address.