Absurd secret rules

[.RC.]

What the hell is this absurd secret forum rule about not being able to link to other internet sites??

Nothing in the rules about it but one of my posts got modified because I linked to another internet site..



FORUM RULES - Woodwork Forums (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f90/)

[snowyskiesau]

I was going to post on this subject after I saw your modified post.
I've been through the rules and can't find a mention of it.

I have no problem with the administrators setting such a rule (even if I can't see the point) but please add it to the terms of service.

[watson]

What the hell is this absurd secret forum rule about not being able to link to other internet sites??

Nothing in the rules about it but one of my posts got modified because I linked to another internet site..



FORUM RULES - Woodwork Forums (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f90/)
G'day .RC.,
I think you'll find that the modification is standard to all forums, as you are a bit wrong in stating that your post was modified because it had an "Internet link" in it.
It was modified because it contained a "cross forum link" which in the wrong circumstances can cause Mods and Admins on both forums very serious problems.
You are not being singled out for "special treatment"...as ever since I've been a Mod & Admin I delete those links every time I come across them.

[.RC.]

G'day .RC.,

It was modified because it contained a "cross forum link" which in the wrong circumstances can cause Mods and Admins on both forums very serious problems.


How does it cause problems?? I have never heard of any rule or problems like that on any forum I have ever visited, and I have visited a lot...

The only thing that is frowned upon and can cause problems is hot linking images..

[Manuka Jock]

G'day .RC.,
I think you'll find that the modification is standard to all forums, as you are a bit wrong in stating that your post was modified because it had an "Internet link" in it.
It was modified because it contained a "cross forum link" which in the wrong circumstances can cause Mods and Admins on both forums very serious problems.
You are not being singled out for "special treatment"...as ever since I've been a Mod & Admin I delete those links every time I come across them.

So does that mean that we can type the name of the forum , the section , the thread title etc , but not post a 'hot' link ?

[snowyskiesau]

And will this undocumented rule be added to the forum rules posts?

[RETIRED]

How does it cause problems?? I have never heard of any rule or problems like that on any forum I have ever visited, and I have visited a lot...

The only thing that is frowned upon and can cause problems is hot linking images..Try it on at Sawmill Creek.


So does that mean that we can type the name of the forum , the section , the thread title etc , but not post a 'hot' link ?Yes.

We allow links to other web pages.:2tsup::cool:

We DO NOT allow direct links to other Forums.:no:

[Groggy]

And will this undocumented rule be added to the forum rules posts?I have a task that I've set myself to review the rules and try to make them clearer and more easily accessed/read. Unfortunately a series of problems with my connection at home have pushed this back quite a way.

Here is an excerpt from SMC rules, our approach is very similar.

"3. External Linking
Links to other websites are allowed in posts. In fact, they are
encouraged. However, links for the sole purpose of marketing,
generating traffic to a site, or any other commercial advertisement deemed
to solicit commercial benefit are not allowed. Links to other public or private forums are not allowed. Links should be submitted as references, for the sole purpose of generating or supporting discussions on SawMill Creek. "

[.RC.]

Here is an excerpt from SMC rules, our approach is very similar.

"3. External Linking
LLinks to other public or private forums are not allowed. Links should be submitted as references, for the sole purpose of generating or supporting discussions on SawMill Creek. "

That is still not an answer as to a logical reason why such a rule exists....

If there is a valid, logical, real problem creating issue to have such a rule then OK, but if it is only to keep up with the Jones's..well...

[Manuka Jock]

Yes.

We allow links to other web pages.:2tsup::cool:

We DO NOT allow direct links to other Forums.:no:

Cheers

[snowyskiesau]

Try it on at Sawmill Creek.



Correct me if I'm wrong but this is not the Sawmill Creek forum? Quoting the rules for their forums is not that relevant here.

I'm sure none of us has any problem adhering to the rules that Woodwork Forums lay down for forum membership and posting. My problem is with the administrators applying an undocumented rule with little or no explanation and then claiming "it's what other forums do' as an excuse.

I feel the best response would have been to explain that it isn't allowed for whatever reasons and to add it to the existing rules. Any future posts that infringe this rule could then be modified with a reference to the rule.

[jmk89]

The logic is that cross-forum posting has been used by aggressive forum owners/members as a way to try to recruit new members to their forums and reduce the activity on the other forum. So we and most other forums do not allow it.

As a real example of what could happen without such a rule, imagine a situation where a group of forum members decide they don't like a forum and set up their own. Nothing wrong with that. They then try to encourage members of the old forum to go to their new forum by posting links. We don't stop that, so long as the link is inactive (ie the reader can't just cllick through to the new forum, he has to copy the info,paste into the browser and delberately go there).

We are happy with providing information to all other kinds of sites and happy if other forums do well because, for example, their posts are frequently picked up by Google and other search engines, but we draw the line at other forums using this forum as a way to try to divert the members here to that other forum. Competitiion is good and a benefit to all, but using this forum to promote your own in a way that potentially undermines the value of this forum as an active community is inappropriate.

[RETIRED]

That is still not an answer as to a logical reason why such a rule exists....

If there is a valid, logical, real problem creating issue to have such a rule then OK, but if it is only to keep up with the Jones's..well...Ok I will try to supply an easy answer.

Forum "A" wants to increase its traffic i.e. hits per month to lift itself on any search engines so that if you are looking for anything related to widgets your Forum comes up at the top of the list.

Forum "A" owners ask their members to go out and put as many links in other forums to "poach" members thereby increasing their ranking on search engines.

They can then use this data to attract sponsors who pay them to advertise on their forums. A form of Spam.

The short answer is: It ain't allowed on this Forum.

[RETIRED]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is not the Sawmill Creek forum? Quoting the rules for their forums is not that relevant here.

I'm sure none of us has any problem adhering to the rules that Woodwork Forums lay down for forum membership and posting. My problem is with the administrators applying an undocumented rule with little or no explanation and then claiming "it's what other forums do' as an excuse.

I feel the best response would have been to explain that it isn't allowed for whatever reasons and to add it to the existing rules. Any future posts that infringe this rule could then be modified with a reference to the rule.It has been noted a number of times throughout the last 10 Years.

Just hasn't been added to the rules BUT WILL BE SHORTLY.

[RETIRED]

PS Jeremy posted whist I was typing my response.

[.RC.]

The logic is that cross-forum posting has been used by aggressive forum owners/members as a way to try to recruit new members to their forums and reduce the activity on the other forum. So we and most other forums do not allow it.



Except out of the lots of other forums I visit I have never come across this rule..




Ok I will try to supply an easy answer.

Forum "A" wants to increase its traffic i.e. hits per month to lift itself on any search engines so that if you are looking for anything related to widgets your Forum comes up at the top of the list.

Forum "A" owners ask their members to go out and put as many links in other forums to "poach" members thereby increasing their ranking on search engines.

They can then use this data to attract sponsors who pay them to advertise on their forums. A form of Spam.

The short answer is: It ain't allowed on this Forum.

And how often does that happen??

Still seems a particularly absurd rule to me, and to be honest in my opinion it is wrong for you to administer unwrittten rules.. It would take five minutes to update the rules thread to include this...

[Big Shed]

Try it on at Sawmill Creek.



..........or indeed Practical Machinist.

[.RC.]

..........or indeed Practical Machinist.

No such rule on PM forum...

[weisyboy]

As a real example of what could happen without such a rule, imagine a situation where a group of forum members decide they don't like a forum and set up their own. Nothing wrong with that. They then try to encourage members of the old forum to go to their new forum by posting links. We don't stop that, so long as the link is inactive (ie the reader can't just cllick through to the new forum, he has to copy the info,paste into the browser and delberately go there).

as apposed to teh reader antecedently clicking on a hotlink and accidentally going there, and then accidentally not realizing, and accidentally never coming back the your forum? :doh:

seams to me to be a pretty stupid rule.

[wheelinround]

Sorry but what's the difference between pointing to an item on another forum and cross linking it still takes you there. :? So Poaching members is a poor excuse.

This however explains it well but brief Cross Linking (http://www.searchenginedictionary.com/terms-cross-linking.shtml)

For a fuller read Best Practices for Cross-linking | Links Back SEO (http://www.linksback.org/back-links/practices-crosslinking/)

[Big Shed]

Ray, what is being discussed here is not cross-linking per se, it is linking to another forum.

As already explained linking to other web pages with content, such as businesses, individual sites, is OK. Creating a clickable link to another forum is not.

At the end of the day it is the owner of this forum that sets the rules, it is his prerogative, as it is our prerogative to not participate if we don't like his rules.

Bit like going to visit someone and you're asked to take your shoes off before you go inside I guess, their prerogative.

[.RC.]

At the end of the day it is the owner of this forum that sets the rules, it is his prerogative, as it is our prerogative to not participate if we don't like his rules.



But he has not set this rule as it is not written down... I am not psychic.

[Big Shed]

But he has not set this rule as it is not written down... I am not psychic.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, you already said that, you are repeating yourself.

Let me re-cap the sequence of events here.

You posted a clickable link to another forum

As these are not allowed, a Moderator (me) removed changed the clickable link to a non-clickable link. Something any of the Admins and/or Moderators do regularly. I could have left it at that, but I stated my reason for doing so in the edit box.

Whilst I was doing that, another member posted that he thought what you were doing was not allowed, ie he had seen this type of link being removed before.

Your beef is apparently two-fold, firstly you don't think Admins/Moderators should edit your posts, ie whatever you post is to be considered carved in stone, not to be altered.

Secondly, you consider this rule, which you contend is not a rule, "stupid". That is of course your prerogative, doesn't change the fact that it is still a rule.

At the end of the day, if you refer to the wording to the effect of "The forum Admins/Moderators reserve the right to delete or edit any post" I would think that covers it.

If you want every eventuality that could possibly occur covered by a "written" rule I think you are going to be disappointed.

.RC., in my opinion you are a valuable member of this forum, I always enjoy reading your posts and have learned a lot from them.

In this case I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

[.RC.]

Sorry bigshed but I get annoyed when rules do not follow logic and the "vibe" takes over.. I never used to be like this but over the last many years I have seen rule after rule imposed because of some occurrence that the odds of it actually happening is a trillion to one but people actually fear it for some reason...All that ends up happening is yet more freedoms to make life fun and easy gets stomped upon for little if any gain..

This rule severely restricts the ability to help people and is a greater hindrance than any benefit it may create.. The forum software automatically turns any link into a clickable link... how can I make this http://www.woodworkforums.com/f65/show-us-your-mill-121568/ unclickable

Yes I do not like moderators touching my posts.. IMO, deletion is preferable to third party editing provided that deletion is transparent..

[wheelinround]

G'day .RC.,
I think you'll find that the modification is standard to all forums, as you are a bit wrong in stating that your post was modified because it had an "Internet link" in it.
It was modified because it contained a "cross forum link" which in the wrong circumstances can cause Mods and Admins on both forums very serious problems.
You are not being singled out for "special treatment"...as ever since I've been a Mod & Admin I delete those links every time I come across them.

Sorry Fred but how much could it be plainer from Watson's post

This is what really takes place by doing it

Referring to links (http://www.searchenginedictionary.com/l.shtml#link) between a family of domains (http://www.searchenginedictionary.com/d.shtml#domain) - for example your business site, your personal homepage and your cat's homepage. Cross linking is sometimes used to inflate link popularity (http://www.searchenginedictionary.com/l.shtml#linkpopularity). Although not yet proven (to my knowledge), excessive cross linking is widely believed to be penalized by the search engines (http://www.searchenginedictionary.com/s.shtml#searchengine).

This would the as said penalise This forum in Googles search would it not. :rolleyes:

That is the reason it will be come a rule for this forum correct.


At the risk of pointing out the obvious, you already said that, you are repeating yourself.

Let me re-cap the sequence of events here.

You posted a clickable link to another forum

As these are not allowed, a Moderator (me) removed changed the clickable link to a non-clickable link. Something any of the Admins and/or Moderators do regularly. I could have left it at that, but I stated my reason for doing so in the edit box. Yet as has been admitted to by Mod's here there is no such rule. If the rule is such for links this covers all links even such as personal ones to web sites such as my own, business sites etc which now have Facebook, Myspace, Twitter all forms of Forums.

Whilst I was doing that, another member posted that he thought what you were doing was not allowed, ie he had seen this type of link being removed before.

Your beef is apparently two-fold, firstly you don't think Admins/Moderators should edit your posts, ie whatever you post is to be considered carved in stone, not to be altered. Its been talked about before Fred recall the editing done in NZcarvers posts and others. Yes by all means edit if you must but an explanation should be posted by the mod who does it a notification as to why. Otherwise it can be seen to be a vilification if you like

Secondly, you consider this rule, which you contend is not a rule, "stupid". That is of course your prerogative, doesn't change the fact that it is still a rule.

At the end of the day, if you refer to the wording to the effect of "The forum Admins/Moderators reserve the right to delete or edit any post" I would think that covers it.

If you want every eventuality that could possibly occur covered by a "written" rule I think you are going to be disappointed.

.RC., in my opinion you are a valuable member of this forum, I always enjoy reading your posts and have learned a lot from them.

In this case I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

[RayG]

Hi All,

After reading .RC's post I was looking for the information on Australian tool makers he linked to, but since the link was deleted I just googled it using the site?? format.

Subsequently, I decided that maybe I had better read the Forum Rules, did that, but couldn't find any mention of a rule banning linking to other forums. Then I noticed this thread...:D

While I respect the administration of the forum is entirely within the control and disgression of the owners admins and mods. Seems like the cross linking rule might well just drive people to use other tools, thus, the intention of stopping people visiting other forums has failed.

My suggestion would be that perhaps either the rule, or the way it is implemented needs to be reviewed.

Preferably dropped altogether.

Regards
Ray

[Lignum]

It is a silly rule, and there is no such rule on Big Footy, and that’s probably Australia’s biggest forum.

[Scott]

I dare say the sponsors of this forum would like to know that direct linking to other forums is a no, no. I know I would.

Seriously, I think it's a non-issue. I know I've got better things to read and this forum provides some magnificent ideas, knowledge and discussion well beyond this thread.

[joe greiner]

1. The AAW Forum has allowed my direct links to this forum, to expand some of my posts there, or clarify something, usually to enable more pictures. No, I will not post an example.

2. As a practical matter of computer programming, however, cross-links between forums can accidentally or deliberately create an endless loop. Not much fun for anyone.

A few years ago, direct links were allowed here. But apparently there were enough hiccups to discourage it.

It would be wonderful if moderators had nothing better to do than to explore a bunch of blind alleys. That's not the case, of course.

I'm not persuaded that poaching is such a big deal. Lots of us are members of other forums. And nobody has time to dance with all the girls anyway.:D

Cheers,
Joe

[Cliff Rogers]

... And nobody has time to dance with all the girls anyway.....
There are girls? :oo:

[Claw Hama]

Thats it, i'm not comming back!!! Too many rules

[Cliff Rogers]

Thats it, i'm not comming back!!! Too many rules
Hooroo Bruce. :2tsup:

[Claw Hama]

Ohh, I got lonely, I'm back:U We have rules:o? its all about morality I'm sure:D

[Cliff Rogers]

Ohh, I got lonely, I'm back:U We have rules:o? its all about morality I'm sure:D
...or the fact that we will talk about you behind your back. :D

[Master Splinter]

So I take it then, that linking to the Renovate Forums (http://www.renovateforum.com/) would be a no-no, then?

We could always look at the linking practices of other forums, such as the forum often considered to be the original user-generated content web forum, Slashdot.org.

Slashdot allows linking to anywhere, and considering that they get a few orders of magnitude more traffic than the Woodwork Forums, it doesn't seem to have done them any harm.

Looking at traffic stats (from Alexa below) it would seem the greatest hopping off point after here is Google. By any logic, then, links including a Google reference should be banned!

On the incoming side, we should ask Digg to remove the link they have pointing here, along with the CNC Forum link that leads here. The Candlepower forums are doing it, too...oh, and so is that 4wd Forum, and the Festool Owners Group, and the Woodworkers Institute Forums.....

http://www.alexa.com/site/linksin/woodworkforums.com

From a web search optimisation point of view, the only real no-no is too many links to disreputable sites that are part of a link farm (basically a mutual admiration society with the sole purpose of increasing googlerank), and on a site with real content (as opposed to sites full of quickly scraped kruft with a mAkE KRAzy MoNEy!! attitude) even that doesn't make too much difference.

If it is still seen as a problem, simply wrap each URL on the site in a nofollow tag.

[Sturdee]

What a lot of hot air over nothing.:(

The owners have the right to edit/alter/modify/delete any post they see fit. That's why it is their forum. They pay the bills, we don't.

They have set out some rules that will definitely see posts being modified but apparently not all. So what.

If you like them enjoy the forum as it is, if not leave but continuing debating this is by now purely esoteric wanking.


Peter.

[Master Splinter]

...the problem with the ''edit/alter/modify/delete any post they see fit" approach is that if you do enough things for reasons that your user base can't understand, you end up alienating your users and over time your content generation mechanism goes away.

I think the problem is (1) that it is an unwritten rule and (2) that it comes from a misunderstanding of link farms (http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66356).

Anyway, I happen to enjoy wanking (but I don't know if I get esoteric about it)!

[ubeaut]

Amazing how much hot wind and absolutely misinformed guff can be generated over pretty well nothing.

There is no written rule and won't be. This issue is about links back to other forums cross links to other forums and have nothing to do with the terms link-backs or cross-linking. These were allowed for many years and I for one had no problem with them even though many of the forums linked to wouldn't allow links back to these forums because of their hard and fast rules or they were threatened by this forum and it's growth.

This changed somewhat when some people started to abuse this and links were used for the wrong reasons eg farming members for new forums, and stalkers carrying over slander and fights from one forum to here and back to other forums. There have been many, many abuses of cross linking to other forums and so they have to certain extent been moderated.

I don't have a problem with most links to other forums especially if it's to a particular thread that's relative to the thread it's posted in and not a post for no reason another than to link to another forum home page which can be used for farming members. Even then there's not really any reason to delete links to forums that have nothing to do with woodwork.

Rather than having hard and fast rules I prefer that the mods and admin use common sense and fairness. They moderate this forrum really well and very fairly keeping them free from link farming, , spam, slander, personal attacks and much much more that most members never ever see and they do it day in and day out to keep these forums a pleasant place to visit.

weelin, as for link-backs or cross-linking you're way wrong, the forums aren't penalised for having too many links quite the opposite, more we have both in and out the better for us.

Don't try and second guess me with what you think I will do with comments like this one "That is the reason it will be come a rule for this forum correct." as you'll be dead wrong

Master Splinter, Renovate Forum was split from these forums as you well know and is still a big part of Woodwork Forums via the RSS feeds.

This is about Woodwork Forums not Slapshot or any other forum. Don't care what they do or don't do or how they run their show. It has absolutely nothing to do with here. We give everyone more than a fair go with links.

Don't believe everything you find on alexa or any other site that supposedly monitor others. They're often way off the mark in more ways than one. But you're dead right links in or out definitely don't hurt the forums.

_____________________________________________________________


The one rule covers this situation and many others is the one posted above by Big Shed and repeated below:
The owner, administrators and moderators of this Forums reserve the right to delete any message or members for any or no reason whatsoever.

For more reading on links to other forums have a look here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f36/reciprocal-rights-other-forums-44476/). It's all been done before (Feb 07 last time) and probably will be again.

Neil

[.RC.]

Thank you for clearing up the matter and saying we can posts links to other forums provided the link is to a site relevant to the thread discussion and not spam or disruptive..

[ubeaut]

Thank you for clearing up the matter and saying we can posts links to other forums provided the link is to a site relevant to the thread discussion and not spam or disruptive..

Links to other forums will always be checked and if deemed to be unsuitable will either be deactivated or removed as with all links. Links to forums who won't allow links back to these forums will be dealt with as well. Seems petty but there's more to it than meets the eye an I'm not about to go into that here.

Most deletions and edits are done because member report them. These forums are run by the members as much as the mods, admins, or anyone else so if anyone thinks a link might be a bit sus then it probably will be. Contact a moderator or administrator if you're unsure and ask if it's ok. Then there shouldn't be a problem.