Toilet to Kitchen Prominity

[nt900]

Hi all,

Who knows or could direct me to a source of information to understand if there is any Victorian or national regulations about positioning a toilet directly off the kitchen.<O:p</O:p

Current situation: The existing kitchen has the bathroom directly off of it. I was thinking of bringing the toilet, which is off the laundry, which is off the bathroom back into the bathroom. There fore it would now be directly off the kitchen. The bathroom is only a small area and although I could create a small room within the bathroom just to house the toilet, I would prefer not to as it makes for a rather cramped feeling bathroom.<O:p</O:p

Any regulation direction, or other ideas, please.<O:p</O:p

[Sir Stinkalot]

NT900 ....

What you need is the building code of Australia (BCA) ..... from memory you can have a sanitary compartment directly from a kitchen provided there is automatic ventilation that switches on when you turn the light on .... the requirements for this ventilation is also in the BCA ....

If it can wait until Monday I will be able to post the regulations word for word as I have the 2004 copy of the BCA sitting next to my desk.

Stinky.

[johnc]

Anthony,

I seem to remember that you need an air lock in the old regulations, usually no more than a short piece of passage between toilet and other main rooms. Something to do with the odd odourous guest fouling the air in the main rooms not being desirable I believe. I am sure someone out there knows the answer.

John

[Dylan SJ]

From the BCA:


HEALTH AND AMENITY
3.8.5.3 Location of sanitary compartments

Sanitary compartments must not open directly into a kitchen or pantry unless—

(a) access is by an airlock, hallway or other room, (see Figure 3.8.5.2); or
(b) the room containing the closet pan is provided with mechanical exhaust ventilation installed in accordance with Part 3.8.5.


3.8.5.0
Performance Requirement P2.4.5 is satisfied for a mechanical ventilation system if it is installed in accordance with AS 1668.2—Mechanical ventilation for acceptable indoor air quality, except that any contaminated air from a sanitary compartment or bathroom must—

(a) exhaust directly to outside the building by way of ducts; or
(b) exhaust into the roof space provided—
(i) it is adequately ventilated by open eaves, and/or roof vents; or
(ii) the roof is clad in roofing tiles without sarking or similar materials which would prevent venting through gaps between tiles.
Mechanical ventilation includes electric exhaust fans.

[Sir Stinkalot]

Good work Dylan .... save me the effort ... it lokks as if somebody has the BCA on CD :)

[Dylan SJ]

Good work Dylan .... save me the effort ... it lokks as if somebody has the BCA on CD :)Yep. It's easier for me to use than the books.

[ozwinner]

Gees Rocko, how bad is your cooking if you have to have the reeeeeal close to the kitchen??


Al :D

[nt900]

Excellent guys, thanks for clearing this up. And as I read the BCA you provided, it does not look like the exhaust vent needs to be automatically switched on with the light, as long as it can be switched on when necessary is the main thing I guess.

On the down side of all this, this place will end up with a toilet that can be seen from the kitchen, which is not that great really. Might slightly freak people out a little. And I hate being at a dinner party where you can hear the trickle or plop from the next room whilst trying to finish desert.

For the benefit of Oz, this is a rental property which I am renovating to make more comfortable by bringing the toilet to a more central location. Don't knock my cooking man, I get enough of that from my wife thanks!

Thanks everyone with your assistance.

[nt900]

"Prominity"..... what a dick.

[journeyman Mick]

I could be wrong here, but I thought that the fan either had to run all the time or whenever the room was occupied. The latter is often achieved in rooms that have no natural lighting by wiring the fan to the lights (as per Stinkie's post). On the other hand lots of the regulations have changed (my last copy of the BCA is from '94 :eek: ) and it's almost impossible to keep up to date on stuff, which is why you pay architects and draughtsmen to do all that tedious stuff.

Mick

[nt900]

Hmmm.

Hey Dylan, what year is your copy of the BCA?

Also by reading Dylan's extract from the BCA, that a good non-mechanical vent (say above the window) would also suffice.

My preference would be a user switched mechanical vent through to the outside, not sure though how to stop drafts. Unlike a mechanical vent through to the roof space, which can then be fitted with a Draft-Stoppa.

[echnidna]

As you are building a small room in the bathroom as the toilet then the bathroom is effectively an airlock so it therefore complies with regulations.

[nt900]

Thanks Bob, but I was trying to avoid building a room within the room, as it makes the bathroom very small indeed.<O:p</O:p

I should put a pic up on my next post eh! And here they are. As you can see it is not a large space, the logical position for the toilet is where you can see a vacuum cleaner sitting, in what is the entrance to the laundry, so I would close this doorway to the laundry off with a new wall. If I put the toilet there, laundry access can now only be gained from leaving the kitchen to outside, then entering the laundry from its own external door.<O:p</O:p

I am happy with all this, but as you can see from the last pic, the toilet can be seen from the kitchen area. I was going to close the whole bathroom off with a sliding door, but can use a regular door hinged on the left, but this will not really block off visibility to the toilet much anyway.

[Dylan SJ]

Hey Dylan, what year is your copy of the BCA?
It's the latest 2004 ammendment. To determine whether an automatic fan is necessary, you would need to check the relevant Australian Standard.

[Dylan SJ]

I scrounged around for AS-1668.2 and found it. While it does not specifically state that the exhaust fan must be on while the room is occupied, it could be implied. The contaminent must be removed so the fan would have to be on. I doubt you would have to wire it into the light switch.

The Standard does specify minimum flow rates, which I doubt just an open window or passive ducts could provide.

AS 1668.2-1991

TABLE B1
Minimum Exhaust Ventilation Flow Rates

Bathroom/Toilet
25 L/s.room (Litres/second per room)
(May include bath, shower, water closet and handbasin in one compartment. Rate is independent of room size. Operation of system may be intermittent.)

[RETIRED]

Why not put a door into the laundry from the toilet as well?

I see 2 advantages. You can access the toilrt from outside without coming into the kitchen. The other is that you don't have to go outside to put dirty clothes in the laudry.

My wife would be most upset if she had to go outside all the time to check the washing machine etc.. :D

[IanA]

I don't have my copy of the BCA handy. (Like Stinky, it's in the office.)

Have a look also at the performance requirements at the start of that section of the BCA. Many of the deemed to satisfy requirements are not as precise as they ought to be, and need to be read in conjunction with the performance requirements in order to really nail the answer to the problem.

In addition to being switched on while the sanitary compartment is occupied it is a good idea to fit one of those time delay switches, so the fan runs for a period after the compartment is vacated.

Another alternative is an exhaust fan system that exhausts the air via the flushpipe. There was a product, called Wilcovent I think, that operated on this principle. It got rid of the stink before the whole room got ponged out.

[Dylan SJ]

The Performance Provisions do not add much.

OBJECTIVE
O2.4.5 Ventilation
The Objective is to safeguard occupants from illness or loss of amenity due to lack of air freshness.

FUNCTIONAL STATEMENT
F2.4.5 Ventilation
A space used by occupants within a building is to be provided with adequate ventilation consistent with its function or use.

PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENT
P2.4.5 Ventilation
(a) A space within a building used by occupants must be provided with means of ventilation with outdoor air which will maintain adequate air quality.
(b) A mechanical air-handling system installed in a building must control—
--(i) the circulation of objectionable odours; and
--(ii) the accumulation of harmful contamination by micro-organisms, pathogens and toxins.
(c) Contaminated air must be disposed of in a manner which does not unduly create a nuisance or hazard to people in the building or other property.I agree with adding a time delay switch as good practice.

[journeyman Mick]

.......Another alternative is an exhaust fan system that exhausts the air via the flushpipe. There was a product, called Wilcovent I think, that operated on this principle. It got rid of the stink before the whole room got ponged out.

I worked for a home improvement company for a while and they had a product like this, sucked air out of the flush pipe and vented out through 40 or 50mm PVC waste pipe, I can't remember which. I do remember though that it only shifted about 40L a minute and was really aimed at the home improvement market, rather than meeting the needs of the BCA in regards to this application.

Mick

[barnsey]

I realise my experience is a little dated but when I did the big reno I needed to have 2 doors to the loo, It was not on an external wall, had an internal cavity sliding door and had to have the exhaust fitted to the light switch. Forgetting the regs, the result was very good coz it was right on the kitchen/breakfast bar. No plops or trickles :D

I appreciate it's an investment property but short cuts might well lead to short tenancies :rolleyes:

Jamie