Wooden Knife Handles

[Hop Thief]

I've got a full tang blade without handles and thought you blokes would have a wealth of knowledge on a finish (for the wood I have yet to select and put on the blade) that'll stand up to the elements. I've done some research and I've read that tung oil/danish oil/pure tung oil both penetrate and seal the timber. But withouth experience I don't know what to buy. Any advice would be lovely.

I've also used alittle wax before and considered it might be a good secondary sealant, even though i reakon it'll probably rub off, it's something that I can re-apply. Maybe?

[China]

It would if we kow what the knife will the be used for

[Manuka Jock]

And the wood too :U

[son_of_bluegras]

On the knives I've made, I've use either linseed oil (minimum 3 coats, 5 or more is better) or a linseed oil / beeswax mixture. It's not the best if the wood will be sitting in water but does fine for day to day use. Some woods don't need anything. If you go with the straight oil, expect to refresh the finish every few years. The wax mix has held up for 5 years and counting.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

Just lately , I have started dunking my foodbowls in hot RAW linseed oil .
The wood has to be bone dry of course , so that the oil replaces the air in the wood . I leave it in there until the bubbles stop . That way you know that the oil had gone in as deep as it can possibly can.
Its' the best water proofing for wood that I have come across , and it won't ever wear off :2tsup:

[Hop Thief]

China: It'll be an outdoors knife. So it'll deffinitly have to be as water-proof as I can get it. Blood and fishgut-proof would be nice too, but I think water proof is the main concern. I don't want the wood to swell once it's on the handle.

Manuka Jock: I'm still unsure if I'm gonna be lazy with the wood and use stuff I can find locally, e.g: My dad has these old leangths of timber that he used to use to isolate power lines with. It seemed to be nice-ish timber. My other option is this "stabilised" wood I can find online. I'm still not sure what "stabilised" is but I'm guessing it's like force seasoned/treated.

son of bluegrass: Some woods don't need anything? That sounds handy ! What woods are these?

Linseed oil: I've heard it can rot or go rancid in the timber, is that true? (that's what lead me to tung oil)

Dunking in oil sounds effective ! I think that I would give that a shot given the info I've got so far. But would swapping the linseed for pure tung oil be a problem?

[Harry72]

Take a look here for oil finish info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_finishing)

[Manuka Jock]

Linseed oil: I've heard it can rot or go rancid in the timber, is that true ?

Linseed oil is said to be the second oldest wood treatment known to man , after animal fat .
It does not go rancid in wood . It has been , and still is , used on house decorating , furniture finishing , food utensils , diningware , tool handles , weapons , and so on for thousands of years .
If it did go rancid in wood , the world would stink to high heaven :U

I like your idea of using wood that you come across in your daily like . It has a story to tell eh .
We woodturners do the same thing . A chunk out of somebodies firewood stack , a bit of fruit tree , a few rounds nicked from the council blokes trimming trees around the town , a tree that we felled for someone for free , swapping with other woodies , etc
Thats how we get such a broad range of wood
We hardly ever pay for it , 'cos we don't need to :2tsup:

[Hop Thief]

Manuka Jack: Well you've settled my mind on that question then. Daily life timber it is ! I'll start with dads. :2tsup:

I'm glad to hear that linseed doesn't go rancid in wood. I like products that are simple and natural. by RAW do you mean Pure? As in not a polymer with thinners and stuff in it?

[Manuka Jock]

Manuka Jack: Well you've settled my mind on that question then. Daily life timber it is ! I'll start with dads. :2tsup:

I'm glad to hear that linseed doesn't go rancid in wood. I like products that are simple and natural. by RAW do you mean Pure? As in not a polymer with thinners and stuff in it?
Yep , thats it , Raw . You might be able to get it from the farm and horse racing suppliers too , they call it Flaxseed oil. It might be cheaper.

That other stuff sold as 'Boiled Linseed Oil' , is not actually boiled. Its the one that has the chemical driers in it , and is Not particularly food safe .


Linseed oil is good on metalwork too , the old blacksmiths used it as a finish .
Google it , you might be able to use it on the blades to in some fashion.

[Hop Thief]

I've found a few references now that say it'll prevent rust. Makes it perfect for my knife and axe for both finishing and maintainance. Pretty decent stuff by the sounds of it.

It seems that the only difference I can find in writting about linseed oil and tung oil is the colour and shade of the finish. The darkening with age of linseed oil sounds very desirable. While the matt finish of the tung does also. Have I missed anything as far as differences go? Wiki seems to think that they both have around-about the same proctectivity and durability. I might even end up doing some test coats of both if I can buy small quantities.

I found this ( Tung & Linseed Oils (http://www.sydneywoodturners.com.au/site/articles/finishing/oils.html) ) which gets abit technical but seems to compare the two oils.. but to need to go into such detail to tell the difference between the two tells me that for my needs, their both about the same.

[Manuka Jock]

I found this ( Tung & Linseed Oils (http://www.sydneywoodturners.com.au/site/articles/finishing/oils.html) ) which gets abit technical but seems to compare the two oils.. but to need to go into such detail to tell the difference between the two tells me that for my needs, their both about the same. For me it is a case of cost and availability .
The mildew , yellowing and UV issues are not issues to Treen (kitchenware).
I doubt that they will be with your knives either

[Hop Thief]

Yeah I'm pretty sure the whole mildew thing is extremely rare, lots of people, including yourself, seem to use linseed oil without issue. I'd be pretty chuffed to use either at this point after all this reading. Even Ray Mears supports the old linseed oil !

I reckon I'll dunk the handles like you said. That should scare off any water that wants to get in.

[China]

Linseed oil is a good finish one advantage is that you can just keep on oiling it, without the need to remove or sand another fininish first, plus over the years it will build up a nice patina. I f you were buildiing a "special ops" type of knife I would use either a epoxy finish or use synthetic scales

[BobL]

I find straight linseed takes a very long time to dry so I tend to use BLO on my wooden tool handles.

However, to speed up final coats drying of both straight or boiled linseed you can always add your own drying agent. An example of his is white shellac. The way I was shown how to do it is as follows

For tool handles I use 2-3 coats of liberally applied linseed oil and leave it for a few days to dry out a bit, then I use a cloth pad liberally wetted with linseed to which I add 2 drops of white shellac direct onto the cloths (out of date stuff is fine and is a good use of this) and wipe then rub on a coat with that. As soon as that is dry I repeat with the linseed oil cloth pad plus 4 drops of shellac. If the handles ever look dry I repeat the final step. The resulting finish has a real nice feel to it.

[Rifleman1776]

I have seen knife handles finished with everything under the sun. For wood, plain mineral oil works just fine. BLO is very good and preferred by many. I would suggest the wood be stabilized before you make the handles. Then they would need no finishing ever.

[son_of_bluegras]

The stabilized wood is wood that has been impregnated with some resin. That makes it impervious to most solvents and may harden the wood to some degree. It works somewhere between wood and plastic.
As for woods that need no finish, in general the oily, dense woods are the ones that don't need further protection. Lignum vitae is probably the best wood so far as not needing a finish. Members of the rosewood family are also in the group. There isn't much local to me (middle of the U.S.), but some of the Australian woods may not need finish.
There are also makers who finish with cyanoacrylate glues.

If you go with oil, I'd stick with a curing oil (linseed, tung not mineral or many vegetable oils). And I'd apply a coat of oil once a year for a few years.

ron

[Sebastiaan56]

There are also makers who finish with cyanoacrylate glues

Or epoxy, both my boys have made knife handles and sealed them with epoxy. Needs a good sand but then it can be polished to a glass like finish. I use the thin stuff by West Systems. It does depend a lot on the timber you use. Mulga needs a lot less care than Cypress Pine for example.

[Manuka Jock]

It'll be an outdoors knife. So it'll deffinitly have to be as water-proof as I can get it. Blood and fishgut-proof would be nice too, but I think water proof is the main concern. I don't want the wood to swell once it's on the handle.



Or epoxy, both my boys have made knife handles and sealed them with epoxy. Needs a good sand but then it can be polished to a glass like finish. I use the thin stuff by West Systems. It does depend a lot on the timber you use. Mulga needs a lot less care than Cypress Pine for example.

Just what ya need on a blade eh . A handle so smooth that it has no grip , and when ya hands are slimy with blood and guts , ya end up like the baby that played with the cut throat razor :o


Glass finish is not the one for a hunting knife Sebastian :U

[Hop Thief]

China: What does wood that has a patina on it look like? Darker I assume. Darker is a good thing in my book. Metal patinas look good and are also useful for rust prevention so the wood patina effect interests me !

BobL: How long is long concerning the drying of raw linseed oil? I can be fairly patient and if it means I don't have to carry extra products (for future applications) then I'm willing to wait for it to dry naturally. I read somewhere it can take weeks to dry naturally, is that the case?

Rifleman1776 & son of bluegrass: How does one stabilise wood? Does it require special equipment or can I do it myself?

son of bluegras: I'll have to do some research on local timbers ! Also I'll deffinitly take your advice on yearly coats, which rules out the use of wax. I assume the wax would prevent future coasts of oil.

Sebastiaan: I'm pleased to hear you're teaching your sons the importance of knives. Too many people are scared of knives these days, a knife is not a murderous object, it's a vital tool for life.

Thankyou for all the replies by the way, they're very educational ! :2tsup:

[Andy Mac]

Good robust discussion! My take on it is how the handle parts (scales) are attached to the tang. If they are relying on rivets or bolts etc, any finish is not going to affect the bond, so oil etc is ok. If you are glueing the scales on, like epoxy, any oil finish will affect the bond on the timber, in addition to the nature of the timber. In that case epoxy finish would suit.
I'm looking forward to photos of the finished item!

Cheers

[Rifleman1776]

son of bluegrass, actually making the stabilizing solution requires the use of solvents. Keep stabilized wood items away from solvents or you will have a mess.

Hop thief, I'm sure you can do it yourself. But, it does require some special equipment. Basically, you need a vacuum pump and a sealed chamber. My chamber is an old paint pot, about a 4 gallon size. My forumla is simple, plexiglas scrap dissolved in Acetone or MEC. The solution is somewhat expensive as my Acetone costs $15.00 a gallon and I need about two in the pot at all times. I am fortunate, very fortunate, to have a source of free plexiglass. There are many forumlas and some commercial products available for stabilizing.
There is a forum for stabilizers and caster on the pen turning forum International Association of Penturners a/ka/ IAP.
Stabilizing wood can turn scrap and/or otherwise undesirable wood into something useful and, often, beautiful.

[Manuka Jock]

Soaking the dry wood in hot linseed oil stabilises it .
The oil drives out and replaces the air and moisture , thus it is stabilised :2tsup:

It can even be done with wet green wood , by putting the wood in cold oil and bringing it up to boiling and then letting it cool.

[Rifleman1776]

Soaking the dry wood in hot linseed oil stabilises it .
The oil drives out and replaces the air and moisture , thus it is stabilised :2tsup:

It can even be done with wet green wood , by putting the wood in cold oil and bringing it up to boiling and then letting it cool.


Manuka Jock, I won't debate definitions, some may agree with what you say.
The common definition of stabilizing, as I know it, is to soak, pressure or vacuum inpregnate with something that dries hard. It is often done on old or rotting wood to make workable, as in stabilized.

[Manuka Jock]

Manuka Jock, I won't debate definitions, some may agree with what you say.
The common definition of stabilizing, as I know it, is to soak, pressure or vacuum inpregnate with something that dries hard. It is often done on old or rotting wood to make workable, as in stabilized.
Yes , I know that , I do that quite often with over spalted wood before I turn , it using a dilute polyurethane mix. .
That is also what happens with Raw linseed oil . The slight difference being that it does not dry overnight.

Wood stabilization is not something that has been invented since the coming of the modern chemical age Rifleman , it is as old as time :U.

[son_of_bluegras]

I have to disagree that linseed oil will stabilize wood. I've done some testing and it just doesn't penetrate very far on its own. Under pressure (and maybe through heat) you can get deeper penetration, but it doesn't cure deeper than about 1/8 inch (a bit over 3 mm). The surface will cure and prevent oxygen from getting any deeper than that. That is plenty to protect the wood from water and the like (including blood and guts). I know this from cutting open test pieces.

As for the time it takes raw linseed oil to cure, that depends on temperature and humidity. Lower temps and higher humidity will slow down the curing of the oil You can speed the process by heating the oil before hand (from what I've read and seen, heat to around 175 F (80 C) for 1/2 hour) can speed the curing process. I've personally seen (smelt actually) raw, unheated oil take something over 4 weeks to cure. I say smelt because the oil will no longer feel oily but will not have completely cured if it still smells of oil. If you continue to apply coats while it still smells you can wind up with a gooey mess that needs to be removed and you start over.

If you thin the oil with turpentine or mineral spirits then the solvent will allow the penetration of oil though the wax to some extent. So wax doesn't necessarily preclude further oiling.

As for stabilizing wood, it can take special equipment but may not. There are commercially available wood stabilizing compounds that merely need soaking the wood in the solution. In hardware stores over here there are "wood hardeners" that do just that. They don't penetrate as far as can be got with vacuum pumps.
There is something referred to as PEG that is a compound used for stabilizing wood. I don't know how well it works. Or really anything else about it, just something I've read.
I haven't got a lot of experience with stabilized wood. I've used super glue to stabilize some small spots when turning and played with one scrap of professionally stabilized wood.


ron

[Manuka Jock]

I have to disagree that linseed oil will stabilize wood. I've done some testing and it just doesn't penetrate very far on its own. Under pressure (and maybe through heat) you can get deeper penetration, but it doesn't cure deeper than about 1/8 inch (a bit over 3 mm). The surface will cure and prevent oxygen from getting any deeper than that. That is plenty to protect the wood from water and the like (including blood and guts). I know this from cutting open test pieces.

As for the time it takes raw linseed oil to cure, that depends on temperature and humidity. Lower temps and higher humidity will slow down the curing of the oil You can speed the process by heating the oil before hand (from what I've read and seen, heat to around 175 F (80 C) for 1/2 hour) can speed the curing process. I've personally seen (smelt actually) raw, unheated oil take something over 4 weeks to cure. I say smelt because the oil will no longer feel oily but will not have completely cured if it still smells of oil. If you continue to apply coats while it still smells you can wind up with a gooey mess that needs to be removed and you start over.
ron

Ron, in reading through the thread from the start , you will see that I talking only about wood soaked in hot raw linseed oil . Not cold , not so called 'boiled' , not brushed , rubbed or wiped on .

Wood soaked in very hot raw linseed oil only.

cheers , Jock :)

[son_of_bluegras]

Ron, if you read through the thread from the start , you will see that I talking only about wood soaked in hot raw linseed oil . Not cold , not so called 'boiled' , not brushed , rubbed or wiped on .

Wood soaked in very hot raw linseed oil only.

Yes, I caught that.
My questions to you are have you ever cut open one of the pieces you soaked in hot oil? Do you know how much penetration you get? Is it fully cured to that depth?
I have cut open piece soaked in oil (though not hot oil). In my experience, the oil, even if it penetrates further, does not cure deeper than about 1/8 inch (about 3mm).
If you have cut open piece that you've soaked in hot oil, please let me know what your results are. I'm always looking for more information.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

Ron ,
Hoppy is talking about knife handle scales , I'm talking about food bowls .
How thick do you think those pieces of wood are ?
We ain't preparing bridge beams :U

Jock

[conwood]

Hello everyone,
While we are on the subject, how do you affix the tangs to the timber. Where do you get rivets from for those of you using rivets.
cheers
conwood

[Manuka Jock]

Conwood , you could use drawbore pegs

[Hop Thief]

conwood: I've heard them called a few different names.
- Loveless bolts
- Corby bolts
- Birdseye bolts
- Fisheye bolts

I think they're all the same thing as each other, not sure though.

The British Blades forums is a wonderfull source of knife making knowledge. I came here because I thought it might be a more appropriate forum for woodtalk. Which it has definitely proven to be. I've learnt quite abit since the start of this topic.

I bought the bolts I'll be using with the blade so other than that I don't know where to buy the bolts. They'd be pretty basic to make if you had some bolt and nut diameter brass rod, the appropriate tap and die set and a little ability. But for the expense of the bolts it was way simpler for me to buy them with the blade so I suppose that is hardly useful advice, but if you happened to have all these things then that's how you'd get some... That's what I'd do if I needed a couple of extra ones anyhow.

But definitely check out british blades, they'll steer you in the right direction better than I could if you ask them a question.

Stabilised wood: The stabilising process sounds a little bit too involved for this project. I think I will go with the more rugged approach of using the oil, it sounds as though the oil will give the the desired finish with simple effort and a little follow up care which I am more than happy to apply.

All the same I am very thankful to have some understanding of what goes into stabilised wood and how it is made. It doesn't sound too tricky but it does sound like it's a little more of a modern finish than I desire. I may try that finish in the future though depending on how well the oil holds up to the test of time.

Manuka Jock: Those drawbore pegs sound like a clever idea, like a wooden version of split pins and such.

[Manuka Jock]

Yep , they are great eh.
Good for cabinet making , in mortise and tenon joints to draw the join tight .
One trick is to drill the tenon holes ( in the case of a blade tang and scales , it would be the scale holes ) slightly off center in opposite directions .
The pegs then work like crimps.
I used them once on a small cleaver handle , worked a treat

Here is a link (http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://pfollansbee.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/marking-drawbore2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2009/01/&usg=__5v2DExegtjSY4gduApL9U1fnFIc=&h=2592&w=3872&sz=3764&hl=en&start=22&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=TtjiXQ9elpo0QM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddrawbore%2Bpegs%2Bcabinet%26start%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1W1GZAZ_en%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1)to a blog about using them on a stool .

[China]

conwood look here Australasian Knife Collectors Club (http://www.knivesaustralia.com.au/akc-homepage.html)

[son_of_bluegras]

Looking back on my post, I can see where I didn't emphasize that, with the exception of grapevine, the Maximum penetration of oil I've seen is about 1/8 inch (roughly 3 mm). That was in a piece of rather porous red oak (red oak here is a catch all term that includes many species of oak). On the grapevine, even though there was greater penetration, the oil didn't cure to a depth greater than about 1/8 inch (3 mm) after 4 or 5 months during the summer.
On the other wood I tested (black walnut, soft maple, other oaks and apricot) the penetration varied from too little to measure (on the apricot) to a bit under 1/16 inch (a bit over 1 mm) (on the black walnut).
As far as the thickness I think we're talking about, on the few pocket knives I've made the handle scales were 1/8 inch (3 mm), on the fixed blades I've made the handle scales ended up between 1/4 and 3/8 inch (6 to 10 mm).
On the bowls I've turned I go as thin as I feel comfortable. The thinnest bowl I've made approached 3/16 inch (4 or 5 mm). Many of them are thicker.
I full well expect, on woods commonly used for knife handles, that oil will not penetrate beyond 1 or 1.5 mm depth.
Again I ask if you've cut open test piece and have evidence of more penetration and curing at depth. If so I want to know. If there are methods that prove better than what I'm doing, I want to change so I can make the best stuff possible for me.
My posts are based on my experience and testing.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

Looking back on my post, I can see where I didn't emphasize that, with the exception of grapevine, the Maximum penetration of oil I've seen is about 1/8 inch (roughly 3 mm). That was in a piece of rather porous red oak (red oak here is a catch all term that includes many species of oak). On the grapevine, even though there was greater penetration, the oil didn't cure to a depth greater than about 1/8 inch (3 mm) after 4 or 5 months during the summer.
On the other wood I tested (black walnut, soft maple, other oaks and apricot) the penetration varied from too little to measure (on the apricot) to a bit under 1/16 inch (a bit over 1 mm) (on the black walnut).
As far as the thickness I think we're talking about, on the few pocket knives I've made the handle scales were 1/8 inch (3 mm), on the fixed blades I've made the handle scales ended up between 1/4 and 3/8 inch (6 to 10 mm).
On the bowls I've turned I go as thin as I feel comfortable. The thinnest bowl I've made approached 3/16 inch (4 or 5 mm). Many of them are thicker.
I full well expect, on woods commonly used for knife handles, that oil will not penetrate beyond 1 or 1.5 mm depth.
Again I ask if you've cut open test piece and have evidence of more penetration and curing at depth. If so I want to know. If there are methods that prove better than what I'm doing, I want to change so I can make the best stuff possible for me.
My posts are based on my experience and testing.

ron

Ron
This weird fixation of yours for maximin penetration of hot soaked linseed oil does not interest me .
If you want to know the answer to that , cut your own bowl open .
I have better things to do .

[son_of_bluegras]

Ron
This weird fixation of yours for maximin penetration of hot soaked linseed oil does not interest me .
If you want to know the answer to that , cut your own bowl open .
I have better things to do .

I'm not fixated on it. You've made a claim that I refute and you come across as if I'm wrong. I've backed what I've said with my experiences and testing. I'm just asking you to do the same instead of relying on theory.
Without further evidence I'm quite satisfied with the surface protection I've seen with linseed oil. And I stand by my claim that linseed oil does not stabilize wood, it is a surface treatment only.

If you aren't interested in knowing just how much protection your hot oil provides your bowls, so be it. I wanted to know what kind of protection my methods provide. This way if someone is interested in buying something I've made and has questions I can feel confident my answers are correct based on my experiences and testing.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

I'm not fixated on it. You've made a claim that I refute
ron

What claim ?

[son_of_bluegras]

What claim ?


Soaking the dry wood in hot linseed oil stabilises it .
The oil drives out and replaces the air and moisture , thus it is stabilised


That sounds like a claim to me.
In the circles I run, people think of stabilized wood as wood that has has some material impregnated with something to prevent or minimize movement and/or halt or prevent decay. In my experience linseed oil does neither. What is does is minimize the movement of water which makes it difficult for the organisms that cause decay to become established. From my experience it does that adequately enough to continue using it. Even recommend it for some applications.

At this point, it looks like you are not going to offer support for your position so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

That sounds like a claim to me.
In the circles I run, people think of stabilized wood as wood that has has some material impregnated with something to prevent or minimize movement and/or halt or prevent decay. In my experience linseed oil does neither. What is does is minimize the movement of water which makes it difficult for the organisms that cause decay to become established. From my experience it does that adequately enough to continue using it. Even recommend it for some applications.

At this point, it looks like you are not going to offer support for your position so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

ron


What exactly is your experience son_of_bluegras ?
How much actual plunging wood into extremely hot linseed oil and leaving it there until all the air and moisture has been driven out , displaced by the extremely hot linseed oil , until the bubbles stop , until the wood is totality impregnated with the oil have you done ?
Enlighten us with the wealth of your knowledge from your practical work in this field.
If you have not done any practical , and note that I used the word practical , and not the word theoretical , work in this field , by what right do you challenge me and mine ?.

And as for this

At this point, it looks like you are not going to offer support for your position so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. What 'support' will ever be enough to satisfy you and the circles you are runing around in ?
Apart from ring fencing the definition of wood stabilisation to suit yourself what contribution have you made to this thread ?
Hop Thief is wanting assistance with natural , non synthetic ways of stabilizing the wood for his knife handle .
Given that you do not have anything to offer , why are you here , other than to act the troll ?

son_of_bluegras , if you want to extol the merits of chemical wood treatments , why don't you go away and start a thread on the subject , and then you will not have to be a nuisance on this one .

[jmk89]

This looks like it is getting a bit heated, guys. Please keep things polite.

[Manuka Jock]

The oil is heated here , not sure what is over there :D

[son_of_bluegras]

What exactly is your experience son_of_bluegras ?
How much actual plunging wood into extremely hot linseed oil and leaving it there until all the air and moisture has been driven out , displaced by the extremely hot linseed oil , until the bubbles stop , until the wood is totality impregnated with the oil have you done ?
Enlighten us with the wealth of your knowledge from your practical work in this field.
If you have not done any practical , and note that I used the word practical , and not the word theoretical , work in this field , by what right do you challenge me and mine ?.

I haven't used hot oil. Never claimed to. That is why I asked the questions I did. I want to know. Yes, I could do the testing myself, I expect it will take 4 to 6 months. You have at your disposal the opportunity to enlighten us all now. You've said you've done it with bowls and mentioned Treen. I don't see where you've mentioned what kind of use any of this has seen. Do you use them regularly or do they sit on a shelf? I don't know, thus I ask.
I have mention the results of the tests I've preformed. I'll admit I haven't gone into the details of the tests. But you haven't even mention any actual usage or testing you've done.
I have carried daily and used frequently knives I've made with the handles preserved with linseed oil. Thus my suggestion to reapply once a year, that is what I've experienced.




And as for this
What 'support' will ever be enough to satisfy you and the circles you are runing around in ?
Apart from ring fencing the definition of wood stabilisation to suit yourself what contribution have you made to this thread ?
Hop Thief is wanting assistance with natural , non synthetic ways of stabilizing the wood for his knife handle .
Given that you do not have anything to offer , why are you here , other than to act the troll ?

son_of_bluegras , if you want to extol the merits of chemical wood treatments , why don't you go away and start a thread on the subject , and then you will not have to be a nuisance on this one .

The definition of stabilization I provided is not my own. It is what I've seen on the websites of sellers of professionally stabilized wood. It is what the knife makers and pen makers I've talked to expect from stabilized wood.
What definition would you prefer?

What support do you have? All you've said is you've dunked bowls in hot linseed oil and that is works for Treen. What kind of use have these bowls seen? Do they get used? Have you washed them in hot, soapy water? Have they been through a dishwasher?

As for what I've offered, look back at my first post. I stated on the knives I've made the handles were finished with either linseed oil or linseed oil and wax mixed together. I've put forth the information I have on stabilized wood. I've mentioned some wood needs no finish, though I don't know what is local to Australia, I mentioned a couple that I do know of. Is that not enough information of value?

I'm just trying to understand if what you are doing is actually better than what I'm doing. If so then I will change my ways. But you won't answer my questions. You haven't said you haven't tested your process to know if it is better. You haven't even qualified how you've used your bowls to give anyone an idea of what your hot oil may be capable of. Instead you resort to calling me a troll for honestly seeking knowledge when I suggest we agree to disagree.

I do agree that I helped take this thread off of the original question in that pursuit of knowledge and for that I apologize to the forum.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

Ron , if you haven't immersed any wood in extremely hot Linseed oil ( by that I mean boiling linseed oil . I use that sort of phrasing so that folks do not think that I am talking about so called 'boiled linseed oil and are not aware that it is a chemical solution ) , why have you been decrying the method and giving average depth penetration measurements for it ?

I am not going to destroy my bowls just to satisfy your curiosity .
If you wish to contract me to do your testing for you , ok , but my skills do not come cheap.
In the past I have split test pieces and noted that the results depend on many variables. Species of tree , type -Hard , Soft wood , location - heart , sap . age of wood , shape thickness , length etc . In most instances the penetration is further in than the thickness of anything that I need to use this method on .
Given that I am using this for working treen, very little of it will be greater than an inch thick.
I have already said the the wood ( bowl or otherwise ) stays in the very very hot ( Boiling ) linseed oil until the bubbles stop coming out of the wood, and if possible for practical reasons , until it cools down.
( When the wood get lowered into the oil it erupts like chips ( fries) in a pan , so the whole process can take a few hours . In the very early stages of curing / drying , if the outside of the bowl is held near heat , oil sweats on the inside and visa versa )
So what does all that tell you ?

PS . I should note here that I do not treat all my wares with this method , or that I soak the item that full length of time . The intended use if the thing is a deciding factor there .
( Not that I can foresee what the end user will actually do with it )

The general definitions of stabilize are along the lines of ,
To make stable or steadfast.
To maintain the stability of
To keep from fluctuating
To fix the nature of
In terms of wood , that refers to shrinkage , cracking , splitting , warping , cupping twisting , etc.
And that gets extended to preventing the same happening in the future ,
ie. waterproofing and the like .
If some people for reasons best known to themselves , redefine the meaning to enable to sell their wood plasticizing products , you best take that up with them ,


Why would you expect this to take 4 -6 months ? You have no knowledge , theoretical or practical, of the process yet you make such a comment .
On what do you base that ?

Why on earth would a sane individual go to such lengths , only to put the product of their endeavor up on a shelf somewhere ?
Is that what you do ?
Why do you assume that I do not do any testing or that I do not put my wares to use ?
Is that what you don't do ?
I did not call you a troll , I asked you why you were acting the troll .
Why do you do that ?

[son_of_bluegras]

Ron , if you haven't immersed any wood in extremely hot Linseed oil ( by that I mean boiling linseed oil . I use that sort of phrasing so that folks do not think that I am talking about so called 'boiled linseed oil and are not aware that it is a chemical solution ) , why have you been decrying the method and giving average depth penetration measurements for it ?

I didn't. I gave measurements for what testing I've done. I asked you what you've done to test the penetration of hot oil and stated that with my experience with oil I would not expect it to go beyond 1/8 inch (roughly 3 mm).


I am not going to destroy my bowls just to satisfy your curiosity .
If you wish to contract me to do your testing for you , ok , but my skills do not come cheap.
In the past I have split test pieces and noted that the results depend on many variables. Species of tree , type -Hard , Soft wood , location - heart , sap . age of wood , shape thickness , length etc . In most instances the penetration is further in than the thickness of anything that I need to use this method on .
Given that I am using this for working treen, very little of it will be greater than an inch thick.
I have already said the the wood ( bowl or otherwise ) stays in the very very hot ( Boiling ) linseed oil until the bubbles stop coming out of the wood, and if possible for practical reasons , until it cools down.
( When the wood get lowered into the oil it erupts like chips ( fries) in a pan , so the whole process can take a few hours . In the very early stages of curing / drying , if the outside of the bowl is held near heat , oil sweats on the inside and visa versa )
So what does that tell you ?

That tells me you have done some testing. It tells me that your works are thin enough for the oil to reach the center. It does not tell me if the oil that has made it to the center of your work cured. In my experience, the depth that the oil will cure is about 1/8 inch (roughly 3mm).


The general definitions of stabilize are along the lines of ,
To make stable or steadfast.
To maintain the stability of
To keep from fluctuating
To fix the nature of
In terms of wood , that refers to shrinkage , cracking , splitting , warping , cupping twisting , etc.
And that gets extended to preventing the same happening in the future ,
ie. waterproofing and the like .
If some people for reasons best know to themselves , redefine the meaning to enable to sell their wood plasticizing products you best take that up with them ,

To make stable. To me that in part means no or minimal changes with environmental changes. From my experience wood still expands and contracts with changes in temperature and humidity with linseed oil applied. The piece of professionally stabilized wood I've worked with had very minimal changes, much less than the same species with any of the finishes I had on hand (a spar varnish, linseed oil, wax and polyurethane). It follows then that the wood is not stable.



Why would you expect this to take 4 -6 months ? You have no knowledge , theoretical or practical, of the process yet you make such a comment .
On what do you base that ?
Why on earth would a sane individual go to such lengths , only to put the product of their endeavor up on a shelf somewhere ?
Is that what you do ?
Why do you assume that I do not do any testing or that I do not put my wares to use ?
Is that what you don't do ?
I did not call you a troll , I asked you why you were acting the troll .
Why do you do that ?

I would expect it to take that long because I would expect 2 or 4 weeks of initial curing until I could no longer smell oil, that has been my experience working with raw linseed oil. Then I would cut it open to see how deep the oil penetrated and if it cured fully. I would not expect it to have cured to the greatest depth of penetration. That has been my experience with grapevine where the oil from a room temperature soak penetrated to a bit over 1/4 inch (about 6 mm). But it wasn't cured at that depth. I tested that by poking with a clean dry toothpick then dragging that across a piece of glass. It left a streak which does not happen with a clean toothpick. Doing the same to the surface left no streak, indicating the oil on the surface cured.
At this point I would set the piece aside for several months to give the oil a chance to cure.

I use what I make. Until this post you haven't said one way or the other. If I inadvertently implied that you do not test your wares or that you do not use them in my questioning, I apologize.
I'm just trying to find answers to my questions, I thought they were straight forward.

Your right, you did say I was acting the troll. A difference of semantics, but I was technically wrong so I apologize.

If you really think I'm being a nuisance for asking questions, then I can go away.

ron

[Manuka Jock]

If you really think I'm being a nuisance for asking questions, then I can go away.

ron

Ron , if you cut in half every item that you stabilize with oil , how do you explain the glue join to the customer ? ............ :rolleyes:


If your day to day food bowls are only 4-5 mil thick then they are doomed to failure :q

The stuff you work with has ceased to be wood mate . It is fiberplastic :D

Here is a hint . Don't use smelly linseed oil :no:

bye :wavetowel2:

[ubeaut]

Hop Thief - Have a look at this it may be of some interest 142046

[labrat]

Hop Thief
I am coming in a bit late as I have only just found this thread. I have been also seeking advice on stabilising wood for use on knife handles.
I have found a couple of bits of information that may be of some help to you.The first is an article"Wood,Oil,and water" by Raymond & Lee Dessy (Google search). It deals with woodwind instruments that need to be protected from musicians who spit down them as they play. It is a good article and describes a number of treatments used by music instrument makers to stabilise the surface against moisture penitration.The author is a chemistry professor and he spells out why they do or don't work.

The next is some advice I was given by a gun stock maker here in Brisbane back in the 1980's. He made a couuple of stocks for me and when I asked about finish he suggested a 50:50 mix of Par-boiled linseed oil and pure turpentine oil(Gum turpentine NOT mineral) The gum turpentine is there to speed up the oxidation of the linseed oil inside the wood, where it becomes semi-solid and occupies space so that water can only enter in very small amounts rather than being filled with water. After warming the wood in the sun saturate the stock and leave in the sun 15 mins a side, wipe off the excess and buff a couple of hours later with a well washed linen cloth (Linen is lint free unlike cotton).Do that once a day for a week then once a month for a year and you should have a lovely finish. I have to admit it looked great and got better with handling,but did not stand up that well in the field.

I have also just purchased some Miniwax Wood hardener from the US (About $30 all up including post) and am going to try and stabilise some AZ desert iron wood in a vacuume chamber that I have. Still waiting for it to arrive, i'll let you know how it goes.

I also bought some 5/16" loveless style bolts from the UK on ebay (Item number 310194683093) the post from the UK is much cheaper than the US. The 1/4 inch ones are too unforgiving as they have a very small shoulder to pull down the wood.

[Rifleman1776]

I do wood stabilizing. My solution is plexiglas dissolved in acetone. I stable under a vacuum. As I understand it, Min Wax wood hardener is the same solution but applied to the wood it does not penetrate. For smaller items it goes all the way through the wood. I plan to use for duck calls. I'll rough turn then bore before stabilizing to save solution and assure full penetration. When stabilized the wood will be very resistant to moisture.

[labrat]

G'day Rifleman1776,
Thanks for that info on the plexiglass & acetone mixture, that sound like it would be far cheaper than the commercial product.
I was planing on forming a small container slightly bigger than the piece of timber to be stabilised out of aluminium cooking foil placing the wood in a small quantity (enough to cover it) of the plexi solution. The chamber I have is a thick walled plexiglass cylinder about 8" diameter and 12" height inside with an O-ring seal under a heavy plexiglass cover. The vacuume pump is an aold medical type used to suck out blood ect in operating rooms.It was from a surplus/obsolete hospital equipment sale. It is very old but seems to have plenty of oomph.
My next questions are, about how long do you leave it in the vacuume and the plexi solution that is not drawn into the wood can it be re-used?
Best regards
Jeff

[Mike Busby]

Hi all, very interesting discussion.

OK from my lengthy military experience (25 years in Infantry) and humped any number of weapons over the years around Australia and overseas the following is what I found with linseed oil penetration.

On SLR (L1A1) butts they are around 2 inches thick and the wood was preserved with linseed oil (standard practice in almost all armies in the world) and the oil had penetrated the entire width of the wood. This was achieved I believe by using hot oil as well as using some form of pressure treatment and soaking for a number of days under pressure. Probably something that might be considered at home for smaller projects maybe. Australia timbers where used in the SLR Butts and the Brens had a mixture of Australian and European timbers.

Bren Gun/L7/Mag 58 butts where similar - full penetration.

Having had the odd weapon butt broken off via use/misuse and splitting from incorrect gas settings/broken recoil springs etc you get a good view of the inner wood.

One downside from linseed oil is that it does make the surface slippery when wet and dust and water builds up a tacky grime layer that can only be removed by being scapped off.

Reoiling with a small pad dipped in linseed oil was all we ever needed to do to bring it back to pristine condition. We used boiling water to clean unburnt proppelant and carbon off the weapons and this also had little if any effect on the wood.

[Rifleman1776]

G'day Rifleman1776,
Thanks for that info on the plexiglass & acetone mixture, that sound like it would be far cheaper than the commercial product.
I was planing on forming a small container slightly bigger than the piece of timber to be stabilised out of aluminium cooking foil placing the wood in a small quantity (enough to cover it) of the plexi solution. The chamber I have is a thick walled plexiglass cylinder about 8" diameter and 12" height inside with an O-ring seal under a heavy plexiglass cover. The vacuume pump is an aold medical type used to suck out blood ect in operating rooms.It was from a surplus/obsolete hospital equipment sale. It is very old but seems to have plenty of oomph.
My next questions are, about how long do you leave it in the vacuume and the plexi solution that is not drawn into the wood can it be re-used?
Best regards
Jeff


Labrat, keep in mind you would be using a solution inside the plexiglas cylinder that is a solvent and dissolves plexiglas. Like trying to put hot tea inside a cup made of ice. Not my cupa....:roll:
The Gast vacuum pump I use draws to 23 inches of mercury. Can't equate that with your blood sucker. Also consider the internal parts of the pump, plastic parts will give out eventually from the solvent fumes. I do anticiapte having to rebuild my pump from time to time. When stabilizing pen blanks (3/4"X3/4"X5") I leave in under vacuum 1/2 hour to an hour. I'm not a scientist but I use vacuum only because I know nature hates a vacuum and believe it is easier to draw out air and moisture than to force something into the cells that are already occupied by air and moisture. Maybe a real scientist can support that theory or show me where it is wrong. Until them I'm a vacuum only guy. The solution can be reused but some woods might discolor it.
Hope this answers for you. If not, ask anything you want. If I don't know the answer, I'll make up something. :wink:

[labrat]

Rifleman 1776, I also have concerns about the container being damaged. Previously the interior of the container was siliconised i,e coated with a special silicon solution that is largely inert and should help protect the surface at least a bit. One of the things they use this material for is to coat glass so that the material it contains will not bind to or react with the glass.

My background is in pathology laboratory work and I agree with what you say about vacuum Vs pressure. In one of the ways of preperation of tissue sample for sectioning for electron microscopy the fixed tissue is placed in a runny epoxy mix and is placed under vacuum for several hours and this will draw epoxy into every space in the sample and any air is scuked out. Its all to do with gradients, you have a lot of epoxy outside the tissue the system wants to equilibrate so there is equal amounts of epoxy inside as outside the sample and the reverse for moisture/air in the sample it is reduced by a gradient going the other way.. Vacuum just assists this process by reducing the factors limiting flow(back pressure etc)where as pressure is trying to achive the same thing by forcing the material in and trying to overwhelm the resistance the result is often trrapped air. Histology labs have used vacuum for years for this reason. Also it takes a lot of pressure and only a small amount of vacuum.. Try the old black coffe and timtam trick where a hole is made in opposite corners and you suck the coffee through like a straw, easy and tastes great:2tsup:. Now get a mouth full of coffee and try and push it into a timtam , it will not work, is more difficult to do and it won't be pretty:~.( A tim tam is a rectangular choc coated biscuit)
I am not sure if I am a real scientist or not:?, as all scientists, physicists, physiotherapiests and radiologists have now been lumped into one big pile and called heath practitioners.
regards
Jeff

[labrat]

Hello Mike Busby, I only have 12 years in the Army and only the first 2.5 in Infantry( I got sick of digging holes then living in them) I also remember the L1A1 SLR, a terrific rifle and from what I hear there is a planned return to 7.62 in some limited way as they are finding the 5.56 a bit light on in some applications. My only experience with5.56 was in the M16 and M16 with M203 attachment. I din't like it much. I was pre Aug and my uniforms were green.As for the Bren gun I can remember my IET in T'ville at Lavarack Barracks and being on the range firing it when there was a torrential downpour of rain that just keept on and on and the only way we could keep the Bren gun functioning was to literally pour gun oil down the mag opening at each stoppage. Our platoon Sgt was Barry Sealy he wanted the practice completed no matter what and it was.

I remember being told that the woodwork was treated with hot linseed oil under pressure. But from experience many people do not differentiate between vacuum and pressure, I would love to know which it was. The idea of treating timber that way really appeals to me and I might give it a go. All I could do is heat the wood and the oil and place it in the chamber. as there is now way to heat after it is inside
Regards
Jeff