Australian Politics.

[Greg Ward]

When I was travelling in Sweden, there were more blonds than red heads. They were a happy lot and talked about mooses a lot

When I travelled in Scotland, there were more red heads than blonds. They weren't quite as happy as the Swedes and they talked about football a lot.

When I travelled in Ireland, there weren't any red heads or blonds at all, they weren't at all happy and they talked about Cromwell a lot.

I don't think I want to travel in Wales

Greg

[fxst]

When I was travelling in Sweden, there were more blonds than red heads. They were a happy lot and talked about mooses a lot

When I travelled in Scotland, there were more red heads than blonds. They weren't quite as happy as the Swedes and they talked about football a lot.

When I travelled in Ireland, there weren't any red heads or blonds at all, they weren't at all happy and they talked about Cromwell a lot.

I don't think I want to travel in Wales

Greg

Probably smell of fish and squid.....................................oh not wHales :o
Pete

[.RC.]

What of the major problems in Australia is as a whole the population is so apathetic to incompetence and not to consider anyone else other then ourselves. You just have to see how many people post in this thread to believe that..

You sometimes have to ask yourself, if another country came and invaded us, is this lot worth fighting for?

[Greg Ward]

There's certainly a lot of wailing going on.


As for gnashing of teeth: under our current medical system, I wouldn't recommend this action, stick with the wailing

I'm actually moving on to mourning, not for our mate Kev, but for Australia if Labor get re-elected again, which looks like happening
Greg

[cultana]

Looks like this thread has been cut to its political size..
Meltdown politically, apathy ..
no just the server suffering its political heat..
:D

[underfoot]

Looks like this thread has been cut to its political size..
Meltdown politically, apathy ..
no just the server suffering its political heat..
:D
it's a conspiracy I tell ya, someone here was getting too close to the truth :q

[damian]

Abraham surrenders to Monckton. Uni of St Thomas endorses untruths. « JoNova (http://joannenova.com.au/2010/07/abraham-surrenders-to-monckton-uni-of-st-thomas-endorses-untruths/)

Whatever you may think of climate change or Monkton this touches on the sort of attitudes I refer to in academia. Who is right isn't the issue, it's the poor quality of the presentation (or malicious lies in the presentation) and the arrogant dismissal of the complaints about them that all too often characterise academia today.

Instead of making a proper reaserched rebuttal to Monkton's talk this chap threw together some sloppy powerpoint and thought everyone would bow down to him because he's got a PhD.

I don't really want to perpetuate this discussion, I just thought some might find this interesting reading. Don't sweat the editorial, the links are what makes the page interesting. You can jump to the origional talk, the first and latest versions of the rebuttal and the correspondence. Judge for yourself.

[Sebastiaan56]

Well blow me down, an election!

YouTube - Wont Get Fooled Again

[cultana]

Well blow me down, an election!

YouTube - Wont Get Fooled Again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp6-wG5LLqE)

Yes an election.
5 weeks of :
promises that we know will never be fulfilled.
facts that are slightly stretched, (stretched to the point of being unrealistic).
faces that want our vote in an electorate that we have never seen for the past 3 years or have just been party selected last week.
AND a media that just drivels along without making one iota of intelligent assessment of any party politics or promise.

Welcome to the world of the general voting public.
Always reminds me of this phrase..
fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me

[Gingermick]

shee, they are politicians and will all say whatever they can to get power. As someone's signature here says, absolute power corrupting absolutely.
Howard got booted out because as soon as he got total power he let his ideology dictate his policies which was not what he was voted in for. He got us involved in 2 more american wars during which our lads have fought as Aussies do and some have died.
Going to Iraq was based on lies and our people died, but people now seem more concerned with the current PM, who, while attempted to prop up national employment by stimulating spending on education (some of which has been rorted by unscrupulous businessmen) has incurred a substantial debt. To me this sucks but it's not worth one life.
Rudd tried to get the absurd legislation through that he was voted in espousing (which thankfully was rejected, ironically thanks to the green nuts) and brought some humanity back to the debate on the injustices suffered by our indigenous population over the last 200 years. I note there have been no law suits that everyone opposing the apology was worrying about.
He also stuffed up with the RSPT and some other things and was almost as incoherent as a drunk Glaswegian and deserved to be demoted.
Remember in Australia we vote for local members who, when in office, vote for the PM, they had every right to dump him. Mickey mouse would have beaten howard at the last election.

[Phil Spencer]

My family made me submit an application to postal vote today. They have banned me from attending any polling place for my own good.

I am normally calm and placid except on election day, when ever I approach a polling booth something goes snap and and I end up quietly abusing the pamphlet handlers and if I am really lucky I get to abuse a candidate, it does not matter if they are Labour, Liberal, Green or Purple no matter what persuasion they are l will get stuck into any one. Last state election was the last straw for my wife I sent the Liberal candidates mother home in tears.

I don't raise my voice I just get stuck into them quietly. I have no idea why my buttons go snap on election day, the reason possibly is that I was kissed by a politician when I was a baby.

Is any other member afflicted by this peculiar ailment? Do I need to seek treatment?

Other than polling day I am quite normal, the other thing I have noticed is the local member will turn and walk the other way if he sees me in the street for the life of me I can't understand why.

Do I need help? is there a name for this condition I seem to suffer?

Regards

Phil

[damian]

It's funny you should mention that. My partner watching the pollies cuddle babies the other night was muttering "scarred for life" and phrases to that effect.

It is also interesting to note the polls were laready turning when Beasley was dropped. It's possible he might have won as leader in 07, no Rudd required.

I watched "Hawke" on sunday night. I note that of the things listed at the end as his achievments about 1/3 were not driven by federal government (like the yr 12 retention rate rise which was changing expectations coupled with unemployment) and most of the others were spun as positives but wer really negatives for the people (like the accord that saw real wages decline through the whole Hawke era and union amalgamations that allowed officials to do as they pelase with less recourse to members). One good thing he did was antarctica, but i will never forgive him for what he did to the australian working class. Poverty doubled during his rein, nothing can excuse that.

I expect Rudd's and Howard's terms with be conveniently revised along similar lines.

I expect Gillard will get in, but I hope she does not. ETS, Internet Filter, all their evil plans will come to fruit.

[cultana]

I expect Gillard will get in, but I hope she does not. ETS, Internet Filter, all their evil plans will come to fruit.

Not to mention all the ones we have not heard about and the ones that will be thrust upon us by the arrangement of preferences with the Greens..

So far this is an election of all talk, photo ops and little substance. Oh how the politicians believe we are so gullible and shallow.:o

Have these parties got any real policies beside 'me too'...:?

[Sebastiaan56]

For all his carry on Howard did add one innovation to Australian political culture. The famous "Non-Core Promise". Now if we could get a bunch of people together and hound these bozos we might be able to get a couple of really dumb ides (most notably the internet filter) relegated to "Non-Core" status.

Damn, the buggers have sucked me in to their evil mental world...... AAAAAAAAARRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[Greg Ward]

Seb.

When global warming allows the seas to rise, you will be sitting pretty. Waterfront mansion and fishing right next door to the local.

Australia will at last have an inland sea and we will grow tomatoes all year around at Alice.

The best bit is that I think Canberra will be surrounded by a moat at Lake george and we can close the airport, ban boats and lock them and their public servants up. We will only be forced to face them on the television and never again have to see them around the suburbs pretending to be interested in babies and fruit shops.
Let's leave them to survive at Fyswick

The sad thing is that the sea level rise won't be high enough to flood Canberra.

Greg

[cultana]

Seb.

When global warming allows the seas to rise, you will be sitting pretty. Waterfront mansion and fishing right next door to the local.

Australia will at last have an inland sea and we will grow tomatoes all year around at Alice.

The best bit is that I think Canberra will be surrounded by a moat at Lake george and we can close the airport, ban boats and lock them and their public servants up. We will only be forced to face them on the television and never again have to see them around the suburbs pretending to be interested in babies and fruit shops.
Let's leave them to survive at Fyswick

The sad thing is that the sea level rise won't be high enough to flood Canberra.

Greg

I think you will also have a few problems getting that inland sea. Looked good in theory but I don't think the guys who made that projection did all the background. They made a 'few' mistakes once you do the heavy ground survey.

[Sebastiaan56]

When global warming allows the seas to rise, you will be sitting pretty. Waterfront mansion and fishing right next door to the local.

sssshhhhhhh


The sad thing is that the sea level rise won't be high enough to flood Canberra.

Remember the fire scene in Barry McKenzie?

Pass me a VB sport.

[damian]

I saw BM again about a month ago. It didn't seem that awful in the 70's, I guess my expectations of production quality and continuity have changed :)

My place is 65m above sea level and slopes dramatically at the back, down towards the river. A waterfront wouldn't hurt my resale :D

Pity it's mostly bunk (and we've already had THAT discussion...)

Maybe we need VB in the parliment's public gallery...

Did anyone else notice that idiot Ken Henry saying we need to rebuild all our major cities from scratch to accomodate population increases ? He should join the greens, his ideas are about as whacky as theirs...

I think Brown is straight (please no silly comments), but he is a leader of a party totally out of touch with reality. I guess the greens serve to make the others look like a viable government, by comparison.

[Greg Ward]

Why don't they just dig a ditch to Lake Eyre, it's below sea level and we can then have an inland sea and when the human population becomes almost extinct following the pandemic that is long overdue, apart from a few survivors in Finland, when Australia is re-discovered again, the capital can be placed there instead of Canberra....

In fact why wait? If we start digging now, we will probably discover a few gold mines along the way that will pay for the Caterpillers and we could move Canberra to the center of the desert.
Greg

[Phil Spencer]

Reading in the paper this morning the Sex Party is standing candidates foe the senate reading their policy I think I will vote for them.

[Sebastiaan56]

The Australian Sex Party (http://www.sexparty.org.au/)

Austen Tayshus is running, I might have someone to vote for now. I dont think he would be the lackie in the way Garret is.....

[artme]

Why is paper and air time wasted on Hawke and Keating.??

Those two circled each other with knives drawn for years and now we are getting their egocentric views of how each was better than the other!!!!!

Have we all noticed the tendency of modern day Aus. PMs to talk about what they think is good for the country and what they WANT for the country? Nuff to make you cry.

I WANT, and I think we NEED :

Politicians who can give straight answers

A government that doesn't squander the taxes they so readilly extract from us

A limit on parliamentary perks.

Politicians with a sense of ethics.

The list goes on but you get my drift.

[acmegridley]

I think we have endured a lifetime of waste with both Federal and State govts.,the thing that finished me with nsw govt was the cr.p onthe harbour bridge where they spent a million bucks putting grass on it so everyone could have a picnic.What a monstrous waste plus, the insulation debacle plus the school building debacle plus plus plus.When are the people going to wakeup ,at least here in WA the govt is spending the royalty money on infrastructure ,new railway stations,better roads, no wonder they told Rudd the dud to stick his federal money when they would not sign the health agreement.
But what are the alternatives?Dicky knee Brown? or the budgie smuggler?I think I'll vote informal!!:((

[artme]

In America, when Martin Luther King was assasinated the populace showed their anger by burning whole suburbs.

In France people burn tyres in the streets.

Elsewhere buses and cars are set alight.

In Thailand the airport was peacefully occupied.

I do'nt suggest anything unlawfull or involving vandalism but there must be some form of mass and noisy protest we can organise.

[damian]

acmegridley: Are they doing anything about port hedland ? It's a crime that a town so important to WA's wealth has been to terribly neglected for so long.

As for politicians I've been thinking about this lately. True of course that they are elected for the wrong reasons but consider doing that job yourself, exposing you and your family to that level of invasion of privacey. Even if your not actually guilty of anything constantly being at risk of frivilous but serious accusations. I bet it puts a lot of decent people off trying to run, certainly stops me.

It's the law of unintended consequences. All the male teachers I know have ditched teaching because of frivilous claims of sexual misconduct mostly by female students. Even if your found innocent the aggravation is huge. So you end up with all female teachers. You screw truck drivers down to below minimum wage and all the good drivers leave and your roads are full of cowboys. You sue your doctor because your pregnancy goes wrong and they all change specialties and suddenly no obstetricians.

An honest person trying to become an elected representative and do some good has the entrenched parties to battle, a disengaged superficial electorate to woo, and a voracious and disreputable media to hold off.

No wonder our standard of pollies is so low.

Alien vs Predator: Whoever wins, we lose...:)

[Sebastiaan56]

It's the law of unintended consequences. All the male teachers I know have ditched teaching because of frivilous claims of sexual misconduct mostly by female students. Even if your found innocent the aggravation is huge. So you end up with all female teachers. You screw truck drivers down to below minimum wage and all the good drivers leave and your roads are full of cowboys. You sue your doctor because your pregnancy goes wrong and they all change specialties and suddenly no obstetricians.

An honest person trying to become an elected representative and do some good has the entrenched parties to battle, a disengaged superficial electorate to woo, and a voracious and disreputable media to hold off.

No wonder our standard of pollies is so low.

Alien vs Predator: Whoever wins, we lose...:)

And then there is the pay rates. The leaders of both parties after the last election both had no need to work They were doing it for the ego / common good. Most of the rest are career pollies and so are stuck in their career slots, and the super is goood. Its a good point, to quote Talking Heads "I wouldnt do the things that those people do"

[jow104]

Damian, just a comical comment, your observations don't seem to make all politicians resign and seek other employment.

[cultana]

And then there is the pay rates. The leaders of both parties after the last election both had no need to work They were doing it for the ego / common good. Most of the rest are career pollies and so are stuck in their career slots, and the super is goood. Its a good point, to quote Talking Heads "I wouldnt do the things that those people do"

But I do like the fact that they are to get a pay rise but its all secret squirrel stuff till after the elections..
Pay rise report shelved until after the election | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/pay-rise-report-shelved-until-after-the-election/story-e6frg12c-1225895433545)

A SECRET report giving federal politicians a pay rise has been shelved until after the election campaign.

The Remuneration Tribunal was to announce the size of the pay rise this week but has decided to sit on it.

The Prime Minister's annual pay could rise by $10,221 if the tribunal awards a pay rise of 3 per cent as it did last year, while the Opposition Leader could gain $7272.

A backbencher's salary could increase by $3931.

The tribunal said on May 31 that it would issue the statement about the annual pay rise in mid-July "and the reasons for it".

But now it says the report is being kept under wraps until after the election.
....

I bet its all kept under wraps imagine the back lash if it came out now.. But the media seems quiet on it as well....

[m2c1Iw]

I see Mark Latham has waded into the population debate, strange comments from an ex Labor leader in the middle of an election campaign.

Govt dogged by population issue (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/govt-dogged-by-population-issue-20100722-10mqh.html)

[Sebastiaan56]

But I do like the fact that they are to get a pay rise but its all secret squirrel stuff till after the elections..
Pay rise report shelved until after the election | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/pay-rise-report-shelved-until-after-the-election/story-e6frg12c-1225895433545)

A SECRET report giving federal politicians a pay rise has been shelved until after the election campaign.

The Remuneration Tribunal was to announce the size of the pay rise this week but has decided to sit on it.

The Prime Minister's annual pay could rise by $10,221 if the tribunal awards a pay rise of 3 per cent as it did last year, while the Opposition Leader could gain $7272.

A backbencher's salary could increase by $3931.

The tribunal said on May 31 that it would issue the statement about the annual pay rise in mid-July "and the reasons for it".

But now it says the report is being kept under wraps until after the election.
....

I bet its all kept under wraps imagine the back lash if it came out now.. But the media seems quiet on it as well....

Thanks for that. Im sure the media outrage machine would have a great time with this one. But the fact remains that a good middle level manager in a large Australian company will earn as much as a pollie. And the PM's salary wouldnt sit in the top 20 of Australian companies. There is an old rule "you pay peanuts, you get monkeys" and its true in my business. Of course I am also ruthless with poor performance.....

[damian]

I've never bought that line. The fact is in th old days many councils were voluntary, and the councillors did a good job. Now they get fairly good money and you get monkeys. Likewise the parliment. I see no correlation between the escalating pays of politicians and quality.

You either go into public service because you want to serve the public, or you go in to stroke your ego or make money.

I don't have evidence to support this statment to hand, so take it for what it is: an unsupported accusation. Shortly after the 83 election Hawke and most of his cabinet took short trips to Switzerland. It was never reported. Make of that what you will.

If you bother looking you will find that many prominent pollies get well paid board positions and public service positions after their stint. Many of those are with organisation which contribute generously to party coffers and whome you could accuse of getting good treatment by the government of the day.

Be aware I'm crankier than usual today. Some years back the Qld government privatised electricity retail. Origin got all the default business. I suppose you could find a justification for that at that time, but just now another retailer has been expelled from the scheme and, you guessed it, all their customers are being shunted to origin. Some people might wonder how much this cosy arrangment has cost them.

http://www.qca.org.au/

I went back to Origin last year (after my previouse provider pulled out of qld) on a pay 11 get 1 month free deal. They didn't give me the 1 month (I called yesterday to chase it up and they "promise" it'll be on my next bill). You'd think that was an honest mistake until you look online and find it seems to be happening to many many people. The thing that broke me though is I don't get auto flipped back onto the same deal (even though it was a free opt out deal) and when I asked for a re-sign only after I agreed to sign up again did they mention that it was now a 24 month contract with an exit penalty. And the last 3 months since they failed to pay up won't count.

And they wonder why they lost my business.

I'm just really fed up with corruption, dishonesty and nil service. Politicians or utilities...

[Greg Ward]

And many of the councillors were real estate agents and crooks as well. They weren't all good hearted citizens
And if you look at Wollongong recently.... nothing has much changed except the corruption is now politically based
All councils should have professional management, a CEO and a CFO to run them on a business basis.
Elected officials can open fetes and chair meetings on climate change and present prizes at local schools.

Greg

[Gingermick]

YEAH but they get paid too much for that, Glorified building openers, the honourable wayne swan open the new AECOM ofice in Brisbane today, (AECOM is the consultant engineering company I work for)
Open th odd office, get paid 200K, blame any other bugger if anything goes wrong and then appear contrite, they get paid way too much to do that.

[artme]

And many of the councillors were real estate agents and crooks as well. They weren't all good hearted citizens
And if you look at Wollongong recently.... nothing has much changed except the corruption is now politically based
All councils should have professional management, a CEO and a CFO to run them on a business basis.
Elected officials can open fetes and chair meetings on climate change and present prizes at local schools.

Greg

Greg, I could not agree more with your comments about professional management!

[Greg Ward]

I note that women state they will vote for Julia, as she is female. (68%)
Just what we need, an election based on gender rather than policies.

Note that men (as you would expect from these even handed fair minded members of the species) are 50% divided.

I knew it was a big mistake to give women the vote.

Greg

[Sebastiaan56]

One of the less debated issues is the proposed internet filter and its ugly stepchild traffic monitoring. Thats right folks the mothers in Canberra want to know exactly what you think and where you go, see Australian Government to Store All Online Communications | Greyhat-Security.com (http://greyhat-security.com/australian-government-store-all-online-communications).

Anyhow Im off to watch the cooking show,...... debate? no such thing here.....

[jow104]

One of the less debated issues is the proposed internet filter and its ugly stepchild traffic monitoring. Thats right folks the mothers in Canberra want to know exactly what you think and where you go, see Australian Government to Store All Online Communications | Greyhat-Security.com (http://greyhat-security.com/australian-government-store-all-online-communications).

Anyhow Im off to watch the cooking show,...... debate? no such thing here.....



I think we are all going to have to accept something like that. I am thinking if Facebook had a banner suggesting we all did something at the same time (economical perhaps) to create a catastrophe, a stop measure is required.

[jimbur]

Anyhow Im off to watch the cooking show,...... debate? no such thing here.....

Well, if I wanted to watch a lawyer coming out ahead .........:D

[Sebastiaan56]

I think we are all going to have to accept something like that. I am thinking if Facebook had a banner suggesting we all did something at the same time (economical perhaps) to create a catastrophe, a stop measure is required.

Well I resent being followed around by some ideologically driven bureaucrat (or worse a programmed filter) in case I stumble on some information they think Im not supposed to see. Big Brother does NOT know best. My privacy is mine.

If I want to look up Radical Islam, Communism, CFD Trading or Women's Football League why should someone tell me I cant read that. I have no desire to watch the stuff they are worried about but I am REALLY worried that that are not going to tell me what it is they are worried about. Speak to any one who survived the communist era in Eastern Europe or who lives with totalitarianism in Egypt to understand the political control being proposed.

And yes a mass action is a good idea... thx

[cultana]

I think we are all going to have to accept something like that. I am thinking if Facebook had a banner suggesting we all did something at the same time (economical perhaps) to create a catastrophe, a stop measure is required.

No we do not have to accept anything like this.
It is like accepting so called neighbourhood CCTV that is supposed to catch people doing criminal activity but ends up with the local do nothing reporting people whose dog has left a smelly parcel on the foot path and forgetting to report that house breaking.


What I find the most disturbing is here in Australia with any labor government that preaches social justice etc it is these same governments that covertly attempt to introduce all forms of population tagging and surveillance of the most draconian type. Start with the Australia Card and the e-Health system the are trying to install. The superficial intent sounds good but most are little more than tracking process on what you joe public is doing. It is the underlying intent that is the most disgusting and big brotherish. What is worse seems most media just gloss of this as it is either too difficult or the media is not up to do real reporting anymore..

[cultana]

One of the less debated issues is the proposed internet filter and its ugly stepchild traffic monitoring. Thats right folks the mothers in Canberra want to know exactly what you think and where you go, see Australian Government to Store All Online Communications | Greyhat-Security.com (http://greyhat-security.com/australian-government-store-all-online-communications).


The article to reference is a bit light on in relation to this and really says nothing. This has been running for a while but the main media has said little and surprisingly it has not popped its ugly head up during this farcical election period.
Try these:
Privacy betrayal has blown Labor's chances - Full Duplex - Blogs (http://www.zdnet.com.au/privacy-betrayal-has-blown-labor-s-chances-339303844.htm)
Inside Australia's data retention proposal - Communications - News (http://www.zdnet.com.au/inside-australia-s-data-retention-proposal-339303862.htm)
http://www.zdnet.com.au/greens-slam-govt-data-retention-secrecy-339304753.htm

the government has so far not presented a good reason to implement these measures other than a government intent of policing what you say and do. Just a basic extension of the internet filter approach, we the government knows best.



Anyhow Im off to watch the cooking show,...... debate? no such thing here.....

Two forms of reality TV, not too sure which is worse. I managed to miss both deliberately.

It is funny, we the so called free world fought 2 wars to maintain so called freedom, and are at present involved for good or bad reason in Afghanistan for so called freedom there, but we let governments take that freedom from us in more subtle ways and more significantly that what these wars were about. We criticise places like China for their lack of freedom but implement systems that are not much different.
Go figure.

[damian]

Labour always claim they have changed, but every time they get into office they do the same thing. Tax, spend, regulate. They have an undelying socialist bent and socialism has historically always gone hand in hand with control. It may not be totalitarianism, yet, but given enough time...

I won't even dignify the filter with a comment.

Greg Ward:

No system is perfect. I've seen volunteer councils that worked well, and we here in Brisbane and Logan are suffering under "professionally managed" councils that build empires of beaurocrats and nail residents for every penny they can while delivering less and less.

As I said before in a democracy you get the government you deserve. Disengaged and ignorant electorate, bad outcome.

Women aren't merely voting on gender. It is suggested that they are responding to emotive language. I didn't watch the debate but apparently every time she said "sustainability" the pink thingy went up. Abbott makes statements and states facts and figures. That appeals to men. I make no judgement which approach is better, just as I don't judge my own proof based belief system better than a faith based system.

Anyway none of this matters. Elections are won and lost in the last week. I think it's going to be fairly tight.

[Sebastiaan56]

Anyway none of this matters. Elections are won and lost in the last week. I think it's going to be fairly tight.

Too true.....

[cultana]

Te latest newspoll is interesting.
Worth looking at:
http://resources.news.com.au/files/2010/07/26/1225896/809052-aus-news-file-newspoll-260710.pdf

[cultana]

Labour always claim they have changed, but every time they get into office they do the same thing. Tax, spend, regulate. They have an undelying socialist bent and socialism has historically always gone hand in hand with control. It may not be totalitarianism, yet, but given enough time...

I won't even dignify the filter with a comment.


Yes this unfortunately seems to be the situation. But the people are so gullible.



Anyway none of this matters. Elections are won and lost in the last week. I think it's going to be fairly tight.

True..
Heck 4 more weeks of all this!!!

[damian]

The thing that jumps out at me in the poll is the hardening of the coalition vote. Despite Abbott's performance on a personal level I think people with a conservative leaning are pretty annoyed with the last 3 years and have gone harder to the coalition. I've been saying that for a month and that pollindicates I'm right. The thing is that won't win the election.

If the election truely is to be won and lost in Qld and WA I think Labour are in more trouble than the polls indicate. Queenslanders are ready to lynch Anna Bligh, and I don't buy the state/federal disassociation. There is some bleed through. I can't comment on WA but the media have made some noises about dissatisfaction there.

I am sure there must be people who see the campains as entertainment. My election game is seeing how well I can avoid the thing. :D

Probably more pertinent this time as I've alreeady decided who I'll vote for.

[damian]

Now I'm confused. From the BoS website:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width="33%">June 24, 2010</TD><TD width="33%">
Embargo: 11.30 am (AEDT)



</TD><TD width="33%">78/2010

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Australia's high population growth starts to slow: ABS


Preliminary estimates of Australia's annual population growth rate slowed to 2.0% over 2009, according to figures released today by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. The preliminary annual growth rate peaked at 2.2% in the year ended 31 December 2008.

Australia's population reached 22.2 million by the end of 2009, growing by 432,600 people over the year. Net overseas migration accounted for 64% of this growth, with the remaining 36% due to natural increase (births minus deaths).

Based on preliminary figures, there were 295,700 births and 140,800 deaths registered during 2009, both down slightly on 2008 figures.

Preliminary net overseas migration recorded for 2009 was 277,700 people, down from 301,200 people in 2008. Preliminary net overseas migration for 2009 was the difference between 508,000 arrivals and 230,300 departures.

Western Australia's population continued to record the fastest annual growth rate of all states and territories, growing 2.7% during 2009, followed by Queensland (2.4%), the Northern Territory (2.2%), Victoria (2.1%), the Australian Capital Territory (1.8%), New South Wales (1.6%), South Australia (1.3%) and Tasmania (0.9%).


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">http://www.abs.gov.au/icons/ecblank.gif</TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
Population at end Dec qtr 2009


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">Change over previous year


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">Change over previous year

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">PRELIMINARY DATA </TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
'000


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">'000


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">%

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="100%" colSpan=4><HR align=left width="100%" SIZE=2></TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">New South Wales </TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
7 191.5


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">115.8


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">1.6

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">Victoria </TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
5 496.4


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">114.6


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">2.1

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">Queensland </TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
4 473.0


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">106.6


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">2.4

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">South Australia </TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
1 633.9


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">21.2


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">1.3

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">Western Australia </TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
2 270.3


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">58.7


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">2.7

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">Tasmania </TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
505.4


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">4.4


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">0.9

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">Northern Territory </TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
227.7


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">4.9


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">2.2

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">Australian Capital Territory </TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
354.9


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">6.4


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">1.8

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="20%">Australia(a) </TD><TD vAlign=center width="30%">
22 155.4


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">432.6


</TD><TD vAlign=center width="25%">2.0

</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center width="100%" colSpan=4><HR align=left width="100%" SIZE=2></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>(a) Includes Other Territories.

More details are available in Australian Demographic Statistics, December quarter 2009 (cat. no. 3101.0).

For population estimates at the regional level please see Regional Population Growth, Australia, 2008-09 (cat. no. 3218.0) and Population by Age and Sex, Regions of Australia, 2008 (cat. no. 3235.0).

Media note:
Please ensure that you attribute the Australian Bureau of Statistics (or the ABS) as the source when reporting on ABS data.
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Yet the Immigration dept clearly states 158k.

Australian Immigration Fact Sheet 2. Key Facts in Immigration (http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/02key.htm)

I'd really like to know why these figures are so disparit. I've emailed immigration asking to clarify. I'll keep you posted.

[jimbur]

I don't want to be an apologist for the two groups but the BOS do say that the figures are preliminary estimates. It is also possible that different time periods are being used - immigration figures quote 2008/9 whereas BOS quote year ending 31st December 2009.
That aside the figures do seem greatly at odds.
Jim

[Sebastiaan56]

The interesting thing will be the trend line. I know its dangerous to predict on spot data but a lot of the world is seeing the baby boomers retire and start to die off. They are the great lump in the demographic and will leave their children and grandchildren the bills to pay. I think negative growth (there you go, Ive learned the jargon!) is inevitable.

[jimbur]

The interesting thing will be the trend line. I know its dangerous to predict on spot data but a lot of the world is seeing the baby boomers retire and start to die off. They are the great lump in the demographic and will leave their children and grandchildren the bills to pay. I think negative growth (there you go, Ive learned the jargon!) is inevitable.

And a bigger push for 'voluntary' euthanasia.

[jimbur]

What really irritates me is the dichotomy between stated belief and voiced complaints by much of the electorate.
A common theme is the Nanny State - axiomatically it is seen as bad. Yet, as soon as something happens which could have been prevented, the state or individual politicians are seen as blameworthy for not intervening.
If a child is abused in the home screams arise saying that it shouldn't have happened if there was more reporting by teachers/social workers etc and by implication more intrusion into the individual's life.
If a shonky worker installs insulation and a fire results the government is to blame.
I could go on much longer from old people falling in the home, perceived drops in education standards, youth drunkeness to radar and cameras on the road.
At one time it was always, "They should do something about it". Now it seems more satisfactory to lay the blame on a politician or political party while still somehow managing to decry the notion of a Nanny State.
Cheers,
Jim

[cultana]

I think some of your examples are a mix of social behaviour and the nanny state.
Socially we do not accept child abuse nothing to do with nanny state. the reporting of this and the following actions depend on how good the various departments act if at all.

The insulation matters relate straight to a government that did not do the proper planning of a project. Not a nanny state matter straight incompetence.

Internet filtering for all, secret web lists etc are nanny state matters. Its like a certain political party hinting at a tax on certain fast foods so we don't get obese.

[jimbur]

The argument is not about child abuse per se. Any degree of accurate reporting requires intrusion in people's lives by government entities.

Insulation. Was the planning meant to include probity checks on installers? The fires were caused by individual installers. It could be argued that too much trust was placed on the common sense of those individuals. To argue that installers needed to be told not to put staples through live wires is pushing hand-holding to extremes.

It's a little late to worry about web lists etc. Ever since (and perhaps before) the twin towers terrorist attack internet activity has been monitored. We might be coming late to some things but countries like the UK have video surveillance that Hitler or Stalin could only have dreamt about.

Probably the best bulwark we have against an all powerful 'nanny state' is the incompetence of government:D
Cheers,
Jim

[Master Splinter]

I don't want to be an apologist for the two groups but the BOS do say that the figures are preliminary estimates. It is also possible that different time periods are being used - immigration figures quote 2008/9 whereas BOS quote year ending 31st December 2009.
That aside the figures do seem greatly at odds.
Jim

The Stats figures are preliminary as there can be considerable lag between the actual birth of a child and the registration of the birth; it's the same with deaths.

And it's not necessarily the public servants who come up with the silly ideas; most of the more boneheaded concepts result from trying to come up with something that meets the policy goals of the government, and, of late these policies seem to be aimed at appeasing small opinionated minorities in the marginal electorates - their attitudes seem to be driving the main points in the current debate.

[damian]

The interesting thing will be the trend line. I know its dangerous to predict on spot data but a lot of the world is seeing the baby boomers retire and start to die off. They are the great lump in the demographic and will leave their children and grandchildren the bills to pay. I think negative growth (there you go, Ive learned the jargon!) is inevitable.

The term baby boomer is ambigious, with most usage refering to people born after ww2 until some time in the early 60's when the contraceptive pill was introduced. The precise year doesn't change the numbers much so lets assume 46-63.

3105.0.65.001 - Australian Historical Population Statistics, 2008 (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3105.0.65.001)

If you download the life tables for example and chart the number of people at each age point you find that the disparity between genX and baby boomers isn't that great, in fact teh curve is smooth. If you assume parity in immigration and current birth reates and life expectancy I can't see any point where there would be negative population growth. What there is is a period where the ratio of working age people to retired people drops from teh current 8:1 to about 2:1 or something. I don't have the numbers to hand and can't remember them precisely.

IMO when this happens we simply won't have an age pension anymore. They are already bumping the qualifying age up every few years. People now take social security for granted but it wasn't so very long ago that it simply didn't exist as a universal government care system.

Unless I have misunderstood you and your talking about negative economic growth ?

It's also worth remembering that until the first half of the 20th century government typically took up about 5-7% GDP. They are now around 25-27% GDP in the west. It's always possible that won't continue.

There is nearly 100% discrepency in the immigration figures, and that can't be explained by timeframe differences and projections. They ahven't responded but I THINK the difference is between total arrivals vs departures and our actual official immigration program, which encompasses NZ declared arrivals but not long term holidays, citizens returning after protracted periods abroad and other miscelaneous classes. See here:

Total Movements Data - Statistics - Publications, Research & Statistics (http://www.immi.gov.au/media/statistics/statistical-info/oad/totalmovs/totmov.htm)

Note the all australia numbers. 12 030 973 arrivals 11 770 621 departures which makes about 260k discrepency. I think I don't understand the classifications and terminology.

[damian]

What really irritates me is the dichotomy between stated belief and voiced complaints by much of the electorate.
A common theme is the Nanny State - axiomatically it is seen as bad. Yet, as soon as something happens which could have been prevented, the state or individual politicians are seen as blameworthy for not intervening.
<SNIP>

Cheers,
Jim


I hear what your saying and don't totally disagree, but I submit it's a bit more complex than that.

Consider we live in a village based society. If uncle joe gets caught fiddling the kids (or driving recklessly, or whatever) he gets public humiliation and probably a good flogging. Everyone knows to keep an eye on him and if he reoffends he gets extracted from society (noose, exile whatever).

If you consider how things were handled in the 60's: Johhny plays up, Johnny gets a size 9 up the date and driven home to his parents with all the police car lights flashing and the car parked out the front. Johnny's parents take care of the situation and Johnny doesn't reoffend. If Johhny becomes a more serious offender Johnny goes to jail and even when he's released he's tarred and watched the rest of his life.

Now today the government has removed the communities ability to deal with people,in the name of political correctness and discrimination and also because we now live (mostly) in anonomous societies. The government has accepted the responsibility of protecting the community. The glaring problem with this is the means to achieve this is bureaucratic and poorly executed, and so it is both invasive and restrictive while also lacking effectivness. That is essentially the complaint people raise. If the government is going to take responsibility and we have to suffer their regulation to that end when the system fails we claim the right to complain.

Gun laws are an example close to my heart. Howard et al made owning my 13lb .22 single shot target rifle so onerous I sold it and abandoned my sport of poking holes in bits of cardboard with little metal blobs. I am prepared to be proven wrong but I am yet to see any convincing numbers to indicate the gun laws reduced firearms related crime as they were touted to. Thus I complain about the laws and I complain about the crime that continues despite the laws.

The filter is a similar thing. I'll aquire a vpn host offshore as a matter of principle. It won't curtail pedaphelia, nor any other criminal activity. It will inconvenience and cost every australian internet user.

2c.

[hughie]

Consider we live in a village based society. If uncle joe gets caught fiddling the kids (or driving recklessly, or whatever) he gets public humiliation and probably a good flogging. Everyone knows to keep an eye on him and if he reoffends he gets extracted from society (noose, exile whatever).

If you consider how things were handled in the 60's: Johhny plays up, Johnny gets a size 9 up the date and driven home to his parents with all the police car lights flashing and the car parked out the front. Johnny's parents take care of the situation and Johnny doesn't reoffend. If Johhny becomes a more serious offender Johnny goes to jail and even when he's released he's tarred and watched the rest of his life.


:U agreed and to day the crim is the victim :?....BS


Now today the government has removed the communities ability to deal with people,in the name of political correctness and discrimination and also because we now live (mostly) in anonomous societies. The government has accepted the responsibility of protecting the community. The glaring problem with this is the means to achieve this is bureaucratic and poorly executed, and so it is both invasive and restrictive while also lacking effectivness. That is essentially the complaint people raise. If the government is going to take responsibility and we have to suffer their regulation to that end when the system fails we claim the right to complain.

The Govt seems to want to have the right to interfere when it chooses but not the responsibility if it stuffs up of which it does often.


Gun laws are an example close to my heart. Howard et al made owning my 13lb .22 single shot target rifle so onerous I sold it and abandoned my sport of poking holes in bits of cardboard with little metal blobs. I am prepared to be proven wrong but I am yet to see any convincing numbers to indicate the gun laws reduced firearms related crime as they were touted to. Thus I complain about the laws and I complain about the crime that continues despite the laws.

Couldn't agree more.The round up of guns effected the law abiding citizen and did nothing to stem the tide of illegal importation and usage of guns.


The filter is a similar thing. I'll aquire a vpn host offshore as a matter of principle. It won't curtail pedaphelia, nor any other criminal activity. It will inconvenience and cost every australian internet user.

Yep, can't fault that

[jimbur]

True Damian it is more complex than that but that is how things tend to be portrayed especially in this election period. I'm doing the same thing now by blaming the media for not reporting anything with any depth but there does seem to be a general dumbing down. Short bites are all the go.
The 'debate' was advertised as being a media event just the same as that cooking competition, yet the first will affect our lives for the next few years whereas the second might just cause a few cases of indigestion.
Cheers,
Jim

[damian]

I swear people are dumber now than in the 70's.

The standard of journalism has fallen, or at least they are less covert in patronising us, but unless the audience demands a better standard why should they lift ?

I have thought for a long time that funding should be attached to students rather than institutions and assessment should be cross institutional and double blind. You then have schools/universities etc competing to produce results and attract students. Assessment should be on improvment not raw scores because we need teachers for challenged students as well as they gifted.

Only then when you have taught people to think and learn will you get a more discerning electorate and hopefully a better government.

Of course if your a conspiricy advocate you might say they are deliberately dumbing people down. Personally I don't think they are that well organised :)

[Greg Ward]

Life was just much simpler.
We were all idiots then as well.
Knowledge came from Funk and Wagnells.
There were only 4 beer choices and one sexual preference.
The only foreign restaurant was Chinese
Pornography came along with buck's nights as a once in a year special treat
Hunting and shooting were fun.
Mobile phones, calculators, faxes and computers only existed at Universities and were about the size of your bedroom.

There is just a great disinterest as there are to many options, too many holiday destinations, too many restaurants of too many varieties and everyone has too much money.

I blame the Liberals, It's their fault for increasing our personal wealth.

.......Pity we can't use any of it to purchase a house any more, due to their stupid prices; a fact for which I also blame the Liberals.

In fact it's all their fault!

Greg

[damian]

I remember 4 wheel drum brakes and manual (vague) steering and people not running into one another nearly as often as they seem to now. I lived in sidinee with bumper to bumper traffic yet I saw more crashes happen right in front of me the first 12 months in Brisbane than I'd seen in 30 years in Sydney. There were multi nose to tails 2 days in a row at the end of my ladyfriend's street last week.

Maybe it's choice. Maybe people just don't care anymore. Dunno.

Poverty (%) in Australia doubled between 1984 and 1994. I will never forgive Hawke.

[Sebastiaan56]

I just got my first bits of pollie puke in the letterbox today. An addressed letter from the Liberal hopeful and another claiming she is seat shopping. Dirt and mud seems to be the name of the game. How do I get off these goons' mailing lists, is there an conscientous objectors objectors register?

[Big Shed]

I just got my first bits of pollie puke in the letterbox today. An addressed letter from the Liberal hopeful and another claiming she is seat shopping. Dirt and mud seems to be the name of the game. How do I get off these goons' mailing lists, is there an conscientous objectors objectors register?

It is something called the electoral roll:2tsup::D

[damian]

It's times like this it's good to live in a safe seat. They ignore you...:D

[jimbur]

I just got my first bits of pollie puke in the letterbox today. An addressed letter from the Liberal hopeful and another claiming she is seat shopping. Dirt and mud seems to be the name of the game. How do I get off these goons' mailing lists, is there an conscientous objectors objectors register?

You're lucky only just getting the advertising now. We've been getting it for a week or two even one from a candidate who isn't standing in our electorate. That bodes well for the future.
As Damian points out we must be in marginal seats.
Cheers,
Jim

[Gingermick]

We got mail addressed to my ex partners first and surnames and my initial on her surname from the local conservative fool.
I found it very insulting.
I am also in a marginal seat.

[damian]

The LNP has made a mess of it all and the candidates are ropeable.

My ladyfriend got a postal vote info pack from Jane Prentice via the LNP. She rents rooms and they just assumed her tennants were married (despite different sirnames) and she was their daughter (which means her "mother was 2 when she was born and her "father" is about 10 years younger than her). The female tennant was insulted and sent a letter to them complaining about it.

Sigh.

[Christopha]

When with friends one should not discuss religion or politics.
So foe Gods sake will someone delete the EFFING political crap from the forum.

[Greg Ward]

You know how this works, like a radio without sound. ....You can turn it off, or in this case.... don't read it and ignore it.

But we feel your pain.
Greg

[jimbur]

When with friends one should not discuss religion or politics.
So foe Gods sake will someone delete the EFFING political crap from the forum.

lol and this from the evil twin of gawd.:D