Battery powered? maybe not

[hughie]

I was driving along the other day and passed a Prius and thought are batteries really the way to go? It seems they have to be replaced after 4-5 years at cost of around 5000. they might be green but a bit expensive, surely there must be a better way.Ok they will no doubt get better but at the end of the day, batteries are batteries.

I know several years ago when living in the UK a guy invented a steam powered car that could fire up in less than a minute and do 300 mpg on water. Maggie Thatcher promptly put a 35% tax on his water and it killed the idea stone dead over night.:C

Ok, I know theres vested interest pushing the barrow a certain way and this interest can be very intimidating. Pro Hart was before he became a painter, an engineer and maintained a workshop out the back of his home. He came up with a working model of a magnetic motor. But he started to get odd visitors in suits who were more interested in his workshop than his paintings. Which prompted him to dis-assemble it as did not care for their manner and attitude.

Over the years I have read up on all sorts of ideas for free energy, over unity, etc etc, played around with some with mixed results to out right failure. One wonders if there is not some grain of truth in one or many of such ideas and patents.

I am reluctant to dismiss them all as crack pots and lunatics for the following reason. My Grandmother was born late 19th century and was old enough to see/hear of the Wright Bros heavier than air flying machine successes and lived long enough to see a man land on the moon. Now at the time of the first flight, many believed such a thing could never happen. The idea of flying to the moon in 1903 or so, would have been considered preposterous... crackpots and lunatics :U again

So I wonder what is possible and is it around today some where already? What of some of Tesla's patents and ideas or perhaps Viktor Schauberger.

[Sebastiaan56]

Im on my third Prius and they get incrementally better each time and the first one was great. There is just too much sensible engineering for me to ignore them.

I have no idea what the future holds Hughie, I guess its a glass half full / empty proposition to make any predictions.

[Foo]

Electric motorbikes averaged 96.8 mph around the Isle of Man this year, with a top speed of 141mph.:oo:

[NCArcher]

Check out the Hydrogen powered cars in California. I watched a special about them on tele some time ago and was very impressed.

[kiwigeo]

Over the years I have read up on all sorts of ideas for free energy, over unity, etc etc, played around with some with mixed results to out right failure. One wonders if there is not some grain of truth in one or many of such ideas and patents.



I take a mild interest in any article dealing with alternative energy sources but generally stop reading at the first mention of the word "free".

[jimbur]

I know several years ago when living in the UK a guy invented a steam powered car that could fire up in less than a minute and do 300 mpg on water. Maggie Thatcher promptly put a 35% tax on his water and it killed the idea stone dead over night.http://cdn.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/sad/cry.gif

I read the above a few times and am still confused. Ok, the 300mpg refers to the fuel burned to produce the steam obviously, but a 35% tax on his water!
I was visiting the UK at this time - was there 5 years - and can't remember the great stink which would have resulted from a massive increase in the cost of water.:D
Then the idea that M Thatcher picked on one prototype and ruined a complete research and development program is hard to accept even from her. After all he wasn't even in a union.:U
Could we have some clarification please Hughie?
Cheers,
Jim

[jimbur]

I take a mild interest in any article dealing with alternative energy sources but generally stop reading at the first mention of the word "free".

At least there appear to be very few claims for perpetual motion machines in this 'enlightened' age.:D
Cheers,
Jim

[kiwigeo]

Pro Hart was before he became a painter, an engineer and maintained a workshop out the back of his home. He came up with a working model of a magnetic motor. But he started to get odd visitors in suits who were more interested in his workshop than his paintings.

I think I'd find Pro Hart's workshop more interesting than his paintings :D

[artme]

There was an Australian steam powered car- the GVang - that had great potential but from memory some thugs broke into the workshop and smashed the thing to pieces.

As for battery power, I am still sceptical, as i am with hybrid cars. Hybrid cars have about 50% more moving parts than an "ordinary" car. Yo me more parts=more problems.

Some of the current high output small engined cars are producing consumption figures close to those of the Prius. Why would you go hybrid when this is the case??

[Sebastiaan56]

As for battery power, I am still sceptical, as i am with hybrid cars. Hybrid cars have about 50% more moving parts than an "ordinary" car. Yo me more parts=more problems.

Ive never had any mechanical problem with my Priui (the plural of Prius?). They have been unfailingly reliable.


Some of the current high output small engined cars are producing consumption figures close to those of the Prius. Why would you go hybrid when this is the case??

It is also cavernous. It will hold a pallet of paper or 4 adults or all the camping gear. Just what I need. It will also keep up with most things on the road and if need by cruise at well above 110kph comfortably. Im averaging 5.3l/100km including 120k's per workday on the motorway. But actually I really like regenerative braking :U

[Rattrap]

Hybrid cars have about 50% more moving parts than an "ordinary" car. Yo me more parts=more problems.

Some of the current high output small engined cars are producing consumption figures close to those of the Prius. Why would you go hybrid when this is the case??

Ahh EV's now theres a subject i love.
First off let me say the ONLY problem holding EV's back at this stage - from a technical stand point not a political stant point - is battery capacity & recharge rate - & while ICE's (internal combustion engine) have been around for well over 100 years with billions of $$$ spent over that time to improve ICE's, (most scientists now believe that we have squeezed about all we can out of an ICE) the humble old battery has had very little in the way of real R & D over this same time - after all for most of the last 100++ years all we have needed from a battery is to power kids toys etc. Its only in the last decade that any real improvements have been made to battery technology & most of those improvements have been driven by mobile phones & laptops - hardly a high capacity/discharge requirement compared to an EV!

Your first statement is very true Artme, which is why i'm not keen on today's style of hybrid (these are known as 'parallel' hybrids). You have 2 motors, one petrol & 1 electric & both need to have the capacity to move the car thru its full range of speed & both need to be interconnected therefore as you have said - more moving parts which mean more things to break down.
IMO a much better option that would also help to push the development of better batteries is what is known as series hybrids. This is where you have just 1 motor doing the moving of the car while a second ICE (diesel) is dedicated to charging of the onboard batteries. There are a number of huge advantages to this type of car, first off the electric motor is doing all the work of moving the car ( at an efficiency of around 80%++ rather than around 25% for an ICE) which means HEAPS few moving parts than an ICE (electric motors only have a couple of moving parts) Secondly the ICE doing the actual charging can be designed to run at the most economical RPM without the need for the huge torque curve needed by a typical ICE to move a car. Another bonus to this type of 'hybrid' is that the ICE charger can be mounted to a very small trailer that can be hooked up at a moments notice when a little more range is needed (most Australians if they actually sat down & looked at their weekly motoring usage will find that over 90% of their driving wouldn't even require a charge assist trailer) These types of small charging trailers are already available & are only around 500mm deep & have what i think is called positive tracking - this means there is no issues with jack-knifing the trailer while reversing.
As for why buy a hybrid vehicle, well you can bet there were plenty of people who said the very same thing when the first cars were produced - after all the very early motor cars were far less reliable, more difficult to keep on the road & much more expensive to produce than any horse!
Its completely clear to me that EV's are the future private transport - there are just a few issues that need to be improved before they are accepted by the general public. The more people who show interest in EV's, the more people who buy hybrids & more importantly pure EV's then the more that will be spent on researching better battery technology. At the moment petrol is still too cheap for most people to do little more than laugh at the idea of EV's - give it another 10 years or even just 5 & i have no doubt we all will be looking back at the old stinky polluting ICE & wondering why the hell we didn't wake up years ago. Who of us could afford to pay $ 3 or 4 per liter - or worse!
1 other point that i would also like to raise is the fact that todays generation of Lithium based batties for EV's are over 85% recyclable. Recycability is an issue that is very high on the priorities of those designing new battery technology.
I could go on writing about this subject till my fingers are sore & you are all bored stupid reading so i'll end it here.
But to all those who are still down on the whole idea of an EV please think again, look at your actual driving needs, look at the real $ savings to be had from an EV - not the rubbish propaganda that is pushed those with a vested interest to see the EV remain buried for as long as possible. With todays fuel prices & todays battery prices EV's are already in-front albeit only marginally, if you then add in the concept of domestic solar power generation & the whole EV idea gets even better (thats not even taking into account the saving to be had from real large scale mass production of batteries). Its going to take some changes on the way we drive, the way we produce power, the very way we live our lives to make a petrol free future a reality but its a reality i'm sure we can all see coming weather we like it or not. Realistically the change won't be much harder than a horse driven economy to a oil driven economy. The main difficulty is the almost insurmountable power of the oil companies & those who feed from that poisonous pie.

[joe greiner]

The ideal vehicle that rattrap seems to describe already exists in the form of diesel-electric locomotives. And the current crop has fully regenerative braking. Not free energy, but less wasteful because it's recycled. Diesel was originally developed to run on vegetable oil, so it could be less dependent on petroleum.

Petroleum is still needed for feedstock in plastics, and also for asphalt paving (generally from the bottom of the fractionating process).

We seem to be seeking a single magic bullet that will solve all of our energy and environmental problems. What's really needed is a more enlightened allocation of sources and sinks. Wind, where available; solar, where available; ditto for geothermal, ocean thermal energy conversion, hydro, coal, natural gas, and God knows what else.

Portable fuel for automobiles was originally bought by the bottle at chemists. It took many years to develop the present infrastructure. With the benefit of hindsight, the new infrastructure can be developed more rapidly, if the bickering can be reduced.

Cheers,
Joe

[hughie]

The ideal vehicle that rattrap seems to describe already exists in the form of diesel-electric locomotives. And the current crop has fully regenerative braking. Not free energy, but less wasteful because it's recycled. Diesel was originally developed to run on vegetable oil, so it could be less dependent on petroleum.


Peanut oil if memory serves me well.


Petroleum is still needed for feedstock in plastics, and also for asphalt paving (generally from the bottom of the fractionating process).

Yep, I guess if we wean motor vehicles off petrol etc then can use it else to greater effect.



Portable fuel for automobiles was originally bought by the bottle at chemists. It took many years to develop the present infrastructure. With the benefit of hindsight, the new infrastructure can be developed more rapidly, if the bickering can be reduced.


some call it vested interest :U


hen the idea that M Thatcher picked on one prototype and ruined a complete research and development program is hard to accept even from her. After all he wasn't even in a union

The North sea at the time produced for the UK revenues in the billions and such a vehicle had the potential to effect these revenues negatively over time. Lets not forget M. Thatcher was a Tory and so had more interest in the Big end of town,than a cheap to run car for the working man.
I gather the heat source was kerosene and with additives to the water the start up time was tolerable ie less than a minute. The water was for the most part condensed to be reused. But not entirely hence the 300mpg figure being touted at the time in the papers.

[jimbur]

Sorry Hughie. I'm still not sure what this increased tax on water was that only affected the viability of one prototype and not the rest of Britain, not the cooling towers of the power stations, not commercial or domestic users etc.
Cheers,
Jim

[kiwigeo]

I gather the heat source was kerosene and with additives to the water the start up time was tolerable ie less than a minute. The water was for the most part condensed to be reused. But not entirely hence the 300mpg figure being touted at the time in the papers.

So the 300mpg refers to 300miles per gallon of water? The way it was first mentioned the implication was that you were talking about 300miles per gallons of FUEL burned. Two totally different things. Are you sure it's not 300miles per hour???

If the heat source was kerosene I don't see why Thatcher was worried about it being a threat to North Sea oil...kerosene is a petroleum product isn't it?

[Greg Ward]

I've been in the battery industry for over 40 years.
A few points I consider perhaps of relevance



I was on the electric vehicle association in the 1970's. It died and hasn't (to my knowledge) been disinterred.
Lucas bought out electric cars around that time, they were vans using lead acid batteries..... There presence was due to the oil shock of the 1970s. There is no oil shock at present to generate a product cost effective or as useful as ICs, especially late model diesels that are more efficient than the Prius
There are over 10 million IC vehicles in Australia. Even if EVs were available, it would take tens of years to replace these.
Cheap ICs cost under 20K each. EVs will cost double
EVs use electricity, it comes from power stations. Enough said....
Everyone seems to forget that electric vehicles are in daily use... forklifts using lead acid battery power, thousand of them all across this nation. We are only centric about our own vehicle use.
I saw the sodium sulphur battery plant in the UK. It closed I believe. I've read about all new battery couples, vanadium with UNSW, Ni metal hydride, Ni Cd................. Lead acid is still the only large scale battery possibility that is cost effective
Nickel Cadmium..... vanadium. Not enough around to supply all the demand if we changed to EVs

In conclusion. I will go to my grave in (hopefully around 20-30 years min) and I will bet my eternal damnation against there being an electric vehicle fleet of any substantial quantity of any viable cost running around Australia on my passing.

Greg

[wheelinround]

Back in the mid to late 1960's I lived around Punchbowl area where a fellow converted his EJ/EK Holden 149 grey motor to steam he often had it at Sydney Motor Show. Manufacturers tried having it banded from the roads, there were right ups in Modern Motor and Wheels magazines. If I recall correctly it started on Kero he used it everywhere silent running to.

I stopped reading about alternative energy for auto's back in the late 70's when I read what Thatcher did. :~

Just look how we are sold vehciles now days compared to back then, I recall often MPG/KPH being spruked, now days its just 500/600ks on a tank of fuel we hear. that tank size could be 90lts or 45lts:doh:

As for batteries well they still have to be produced, replaced, and disposed of.

[kiwigeo]

I stopped reading about alternative energy for auto's back in the late 70's when I read what Thatcher did. :~

Just look how we are sold vehciles now days compared to back then, I recall often MPG/KPH being spruked, now days its just 500/600ks on a tank of fuel we hear. that tank size could be 90lts or 45lts:doh:

As for batteries well they still have to be produced, replaced, and disposed of.

Thatcher's water tax has yet to be substantiated....with all due respect it sounds like an urban myth pedalled on conspiracy theorist websites.

Vehicle fuel consumption is usually quoted on vehicle spec sheets as L/100km....Ive never seen vehicle specs that include consumption in kms per tank.

Modern batteries.....most of the components can be recycled. Even a large proportion of an old fashioned lead acid battery can be recycled.

[wheelinround]

Thatcher's water tax has yet to be substantiated....with all due respect it sounds like an urban myth pedalled on conspiracy theorist websites.

I never mentioned water tax, but simple News media delve would bring that up even magazines had it in.

Vehicle fuel consumption is usually quoted on vehicle spec sheets as L/100km....Ive never seen vehicle specs that include consumption in kms per tank.

I never mentioned spec sheets
Just look how we are sold vehciles now days compared to back then, I recall often MPG/KPH being spruked, now days its just 500/600ks on a tank of fuel we hear. that tank size could be 90lts or 45lts

Nor have I but listen and read advertisements that tell you you "Can do 500k's on a tank of fuel

Modern batteries.....most of the components can be recycled. Even a large proportion of an old fashioned lead acid battery can be recycled.

True but the energy consumption and pollution required to make and recycle these is greater than that created for fuel (unless of course we have oil spills LOL) Besides Fuel oil is still required to run the factories, build the machines, power electric stations or assist to.

We have Gas powered buses, electric trams, small electric vehicles when will we see the first semi-rig pulling 30t doing 100k's down the road. We have been playing with Solar powered vehicles now for decades try driving one in foul weather with a family on holidays towing a trailer.

Haven't honestly seen a battery powered vehicle do this I may have missed it.

Weight of batteries is a great concern

[kiwigeo]

I stopped reading about alternative energy for auto's back in the late 70's when I read what Thatcher did. :~



So if you're not talking about the water tax mentioned earlier in this thread then what specifically did Thatcher do back in the late 70's?

As for alternative powered semis pulling 30 tonnes at 100km..maybe if we hadn't let our railways run down we'd be able to move alot more than 30 tonnes at 100km for the same amount of fuel. It can be done even cheaper with an electrified railway (its why the Kiwis electrified their northern main trunk line a few years back).

[wheelinround]

So if youre not talking about the water tax mentioned earlier in this thread then what specifically did Thatcher do back in the late 70's?


I think I said "What Thatcher did" to me Thatcher ruined a whole UK motoring industry at the time. I am sure if your that keen to find the answer you can. That being in relation to the water tax.

[kiwigeo]

I think I said "What Thatcher did" to me Thatcher ruined a whole UK motoring industry at the time. I am sure if your that keen to find the answer you can. That being in relation to the water tax.

I actually spent an hour yesterday sifting through the net trying to find any reference to either Thatcher's water tax and steam cars with fuel efficiencies of 300mpg....I found a bit on steam car land speed records but nothing on a water tax proposed or actioned by Thatcher's government. I remain dubious. Anyway IMHO the onus should be on the poster of such questionable claims to put up proof of same.

You did say "What Thatcher did" in your earlier......now tell me how I'm supposed to read "what Thatcher did to me" from that? The statement was amibiguous and I asked for clarification.

[wheelinround]

I actually spent an hour yesterday sifting through the net trying to find any reference to either Thatcher's water tax and steam cars with fuel efficiencies of 300mpg....I found a bit on steam car land speed records but nothing on a water tax proposed or actioned by Thatcher's government. I remain dubious. Anyway IMHO the onus should be on the poster of such questionable claims to put up proof of same.

You did say "What Thatcher did" in your earlier......now tell me how I'm supposed to read "what Thatcher did to me" from that? The statement was amibiguous and I asked for clarification.

Now your twisting words I never said what she did to "Me" I wasn't there :U I was here enjoying my first years of working in the motor industry till she stuffed it.
I guess I should have put a . after my quote and started a new sentence to make it easy for you.

Statement ambiguous :rolleyes: "What Thatcher Did" even I can relate it to Australia's present situation of Privatisation of everything by Labor, regardless of he political party.

Thatcher sold of UK Water :roll: .

[wheelinround]

I just did a search and found these not read them yet

The Truth About Water-Powered Cars: Mechanic's Diary - Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/gas-mileage/4271579)

water powered car : Give An Aussie A Go (http://giveanaussieago.com.au/tag/water-powered-car/)

Water-fuelled car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car)

[kiwigeo]

Wheelin',

I'm not trying to take the pi**. Maybe it's just me (been up since 4am this morning) but the grammar in your post was such that it's message wasn't clear to me.


I think I said "What Thatcher did" to me Thatcher ruined a whole UK motoring industry at the time. I am sure if your that keen to find the answer you can. That being in relation to the water tax.

Cheers Martin

[wheelinround]

Wheelin',

I'm not trying to take the pi**. Maybe it's just me (been up since 4am this morning) but the grammar in your post was such that it's message wasn't clear to me.



Cheers Martin

Martin then may I suggest you get some rest no harm
I do recall the instance in the UK somewhere in an archive or motor magazines UK and OZ there will be reference I am sure.

[Rattrap]

For those who are interested in looking at the real electric vehicle story rather than the cock n bull spun by the oil companies & their lackeys check out this link;
YouTube - fullychargedshow's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/fullychargedshow)
There are a series of youtube videos that are really well worth a look at, they give a good open, honest review of the different issues involved in the EV industry.
In the last video he does a revew of the imiev that is being release by Mitsubishi. In it he talks about a 30min fast charging station. Just to show how fast the EV industry is moving at, heres another article where they talk about a Japanese company that has developed a comerical charging station that can get you a 50% charge in 3mins. Thats not even time to take a pee!! :doh:
Japanese Firm Lets EVs Refill Faster Than a Gas Car - All Cars Electric (http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1046841_japanese-firm-lets-evs-refill-faster-than-a-gas-car)
Please people, watch the videos & read the article then remember that the internal combustion engine has had over 100 years to get to where it is today while battery technoligy for EV's has really only been round for 10 - 20 yrs! just imagine what we could do in another 10 yrs!
:rantoff: - for now but u can bet there'll be more from me on this subject! :U

[wheelinround]

RT will check them out later
But for now

Just thought one power plug at a servo with 20 cars waiting for a 3 min recharge and a 5 min pee:p:U:doh:

On the train of thought how many power stations will it take to recharge say 10 cars in a recharge station, what will be the cost:?

[Rattrap]

When was the last time you saw a petrol station with only 1 pump?????
The fact is the fast charger is only for the few times you need to go further than a single charge from home can take you.
If you could fill your car at home every night just how often do you think u'd ever visit a petrol station?????
Try keeping a log of your daily KLM's traveled & i think most of us would be quite surprised.
Theres no doubt if everyone went over to EV's tomorrow our electrical infrastructure would crash before midday. But then ask yourself, just how long do you think it took to roll out petrol stations to every corner of the country?
Any new system of travel is going to need the development of infrastructure.
The only way that infrastructure is ever going to be developed is if there is a demand for it in the first place. What rolled across the country first, petrol cars or petrol stations????
Our need for electricity is increasing every day & with the advent of EV's there is no doubt it will rise, probably quite dramatically. But thats not an insurmountable problem, it just takes governments with a bit of backbone - sadly that is more unlikely than the roll out of an EV fleet! :doh:

[wheelinround]

When was the last time you saw a petrol station with only 1 pump????? Plenty around Tassie as well as back roads and often they are just diesel :doh:
The fact is the fast charger is only for the few times you need to go further than a single charge from home can take you. Tassie is such a small place but one trip from Hobart to Strauhn and I can't recall one servo.
If you could fill your car at home every night just how often do you think u'd ever visit a petrol station????? People don't just travel from home, thats the problem.
Try keeping a log of your daily KLM's traveled & i think most of us would be quite surprised. I used to, now days not so many but every Wednesday is a 90k round trip to turners club.
Theres no doubt if everyone went over to EV's tomorrow our electrical infrastructure would crash before midday. But then ask yourself, just how long do you think it took to roll out petrol stations to every corner of the country? Well over 50 years, now days the are removing them. Where we had 5 servo's in an area of 5k's we now have 3.
Any new system of travel is going to need the development of infrastructure.
The only way that infrastructure is ever going to be developed is if there is a demand for it in the first place. What rolled across the country first, petrol cars or petrol stations???? Steam cars and water towers.
Our need for electricity is increasing every day & with the advent of EV's there is no doubt it will rise, probably quite dramatically. But thats not an insurmountable problem, it just takes governments with a bit of backbone - sadly that is more unlikely than the roll out of an EV fleet! :doh:

So your advocating more power stations, will these be fossil fuel, nuclear :? steam, water driven or wind. If so will the Franklin now be able to be damed to supply Tassie's requirements.

Now consider what do we make the batteries with most new age electrical goods are using by products of nuclear source, to which we already have a major disposal problem.

The difference from when vehicles were rolled out using petrol to now is the population using them compared to back then, mass production.

I would love to see an alternative fuel/power used but it must be a situation of how families use it not single yuppies living in city enviro's, who can't even walk to the shopping centre, they get everything delivered. They don't have a life as we do visiting wood shows and wanting to bring home trailer loads of wood n tools, tow a caravan etc.

[jimbur]

I notice that the 3 minute charge gives you 80kms.
On a lighter note think of the urban myths if we do get more electric vehicles - eg. burnt crisp found on driver's seat! Wife suing.
Cheers,
Jim