to burqa or not to burqa

[hughie]

it would seem we are heading toward a burqa ban eventually. As some entrepreneurs find other uses for this style of dress.

ABC The Drum Unleashed - Burka bandits justify a burka ban (http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2892060.htm)


Burqa ban is 'un-Australian' say Muslims | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national/burqua-ban-is-un-australian-say-muslims/story-e6frfkvr-1225863357698)

[wheelinround]

I cast your minds back 30+ years where we used to see many a Nun wearing this garb.Priests and Monks not far behind.
http://www.nmia.com/%7Epaulos/nun03.jpg

I must admit I became annoyed due to religious discrimination, back then on ordinary people. Standing in shopping checkouts watching them walk away with a bundle of groceries FREE because of who and what they were. Similar of CofE or any minister wearing his cloth.:~

I agree with the sentiments of motorcycle riders having been one, I have seen security guards escort a fellow straight out of a shopping mall while still trying to get his helmet off.

How can it be un-Australian they have forced an un-Australian law upon us, discriminating against all Australian's who do not wear this. They have set themselves apart from Australian laws.

[jimbur]

Not too keen on those hoodies either:D

[Master Splinter]

Just because you believe in an invisible sky friend (jesus, allah, jehovha, santa claus or the easter bunny) doesn't mean you should be treated any differently (despite my opinion that adults who do believe in such things should be treated as slightly less than fully mentally competent and in need of psychiatric help).

I have no problems with people wanting to conceal their identity while out in public (for example, a great big bushy beard, oversize dark glasses, big hat), but there are the occasional places like banks, where for security reasons, you may be required to expose your face for identity validation; but in public spaces - or the equivalent privately owned spaces such as shopping malls - you should be free do do as you damn well please.

[bsrlee]

For many years - possibly over 100 - in NSW, it has been illegal to wear any disguise between the hours of sunset & sunrise in public.

So that would include 'Beagle Boy' masks, burqa's, cowboy reversed bandanas or other head coverings that make it impossible to see the wearer's face. Go directly to gaol, do not collect $200.

So, end of problem, just keep the women locked up inside from sunset to sunrise, should keep the more eccentric mullahs happy too.

[funkychicken]

Just because you believe in an invisible sky friend (jesus, allah, jehovha, santa claus or the easter bunny) doesn't mean you should be treated any differently (despite my opinion that adults who do believe in such things should be treated as slightly less than fully mentally competent and in need of psychiatric help).

You're right, we are just dirt beneath your mighty boots

[lesmeyer]

Just because you believe in an invisible sky friend (jesus, allah, jehovha, santa claus or the easter bunny) doesn't mean you should be treated any differently (despite my opinion that adults who do believe in such things should be treated as slightly less than fully mentally competent and in need of psychiatric help). ....
A little prejudiced methinks...
Kind Regards
Les

[cultana]

Just because you believe in an invisible sky friend (jesus, allah, jehovha, santa claus or the easter bunny) doesn't mean you should be treated any differently (despite my opinion that adults who do believe in such things should be treated as slightly less than fully mentally competent and in need of psychiatric help).


What is wrong with easter bunny?? I get a visit from her every easter. :;
:B

[jimbur]

What is wrong with easter bunny?? I get a visit from her every easter. :;
:B

Beat me to it lol:U

[hughie]

and the plot thickens..

Muslim group alleges 'misuse of religion' (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/toronto/Muslim+group+alleges+misuse+religion/3115277/story.html)
Postbulletin.com: Rochester, MN (http://www.postbulletin.com/newsmanager/templates/localnews_story.asp?z=12&a=455257)

[Master Splinter]

A little prejudiced methinks...
Kind Regards
Les

Not prejudiced, just stating that I don't give religion any special status over and above other belief systems that are equally ungrounded in reality.

I have no doubt that a devout christian sees a scientologist's belief in xenu as totally bizzare, or that an orthodox jew sees a christian's belief in jesus as heretical.

To me, it's on par with wearing a tinfoil hat to protect against mind control, or believing that people get abducted and probed by aliens; these beliefs too, have people who are just as convinced of the 'reality' of their world view, despite the lack of (or even contrary) objective evidence.

After all, your average adherent to (insert faith here) generally has to disbelieve the tenants of every other faith in the history of humankind; I just extend that a little further to see that it is impossible for all religions to be simultaneously true, but that they can be simultaneously false.

[hughie]

After all, your average adherent to (insert faith here) generally has to disbelieve the tenants of every other faith in the history of humankind; I just extend that a little further to see that it is impossible for all religions to be simultaneously true, but that they can be simultaneously false.

We digress I fear. The Burqa is not necessarily a Koranic emblem or requirement. It may although be part of the Hadith in some areas. But a lot of Moslem scholars agree for the most part that it pre-dates Islam.

The point is that some have taken the burqa for other means ie stealing.Also in this society we recognize each other by our faces and are wary of those who hide from this basic recognition point.
Its not a case of if this is right or wrong, but simply this is our culture and as such we have the right to defend it as we see fit.

I suspect for most Aussies assimilation is the name of the game and if you cant or wont assimilate then....cop the flack on the chin.

[Master Splinter]

You're right, we are just dirt beneath your mighty boots

No. You have a byproduct of the cognitive modules in the human brain that arose in our evolutionary past to deal with problems of survival and reproduction.

I can no more imagine being religious than you could imagine being a cargo-cultist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult) or a member of the Skinheads of the Racial Holy War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity_Movement).

[Rattrap]

WELL SAID MASTER SPLINTER!!!!!!!
I have very much the same thoughts on the shear stupidity of religion, all religions.
On the subject of Burqas i strongly dislike them. I like to be able to see the face, the eyes of the person i am talking to. When outdoors i prefer to remove my sunglasses when talking to others.
However i am also a strong believer in personal rights & i don't believe it is the place of governments to legislate away our free will - even tho its being done every year by all political parties - it still doesn't make it right.
But then again, our great country has become great because of the blending of so many different cultures into the great melting pot that is Australia - but how can a group of people 'blend' into our society, adding to its depth & diversety when they so completely separate themselves from all the rest of us with such a socially outrageous costume?
Clearly they can't.
On the one hand we have individual personal freedom of rights(including the right to believe in ridiculous 'sky voices'), on the other hand we have the good of the nation. Since the banning of the Burqa won't actually hurt a person & will infact aid in their assimilation into our Nation, which is what all immigrants coming to Australia wanted when they came here - or they shouldn't have come here in the first place, then as much as it hurts me to say it - ban the Burqa. I have no problem if they want to dress in a fully covering costume of just about any design, as long as their faces are completely uncovers.

The hands & mouth can lie with the skill of a concert pianist but the face, the eyes never lie.

[jimbur]

No. You have a byproduct of the cognitive modules in the human brain that arose in our evolutionary past to deal with problems of survival and reproduction.

I can no more imagine being religious than you could imagine being a cargo-cultist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult) or a member of the Skinheads of the Racial Holy War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity_Movement).

I agree pretty well with your sentiments and my differences are hardly enough to start a schism. As an aside, cargo-cultism is alive and well in Australia lightly disguised as credit.:D

I am willing to accede to religious sensibilities in the place of religion. I would cover my head in a synagogue, take my shoes off in a mosque but really it should end there.

However, when these religious sensibilities interfere with the operation of our open, secular society then I draw the line, putting them in the same league as refusal to take a helmet off in a bank etc. You cannot interact with other members of society when you have the same amount of contact as you have with an automatic teller machine.

Rant over,
Cheers,
Jim

[cultana]

From a religious perspective the niqab and the hijab are the two main religious requirements for women in the Islamic faith. The burqa is not.


Surprisingly from some of the Islamic nations military forums that I visit many of the members were negative toward the burqa. These discussions came out when the French were looking at banning the burqa and also other European countries.
Here the argument ran along the lines that it was not a requirement under the teachings or writing of their faith.

[cultana]

I suspect for most Aussies assimilation is the name of the game and if you cant or wont assimilate then....cop the flack on the chin.

The problem is that the concept or process, if you want to call it that, of assimilation has been watered down and there is in current society a tendency not to assimilate. There has unfortunately become a process of bringing along the home country's baggage and in essence demanding that this accepted and we must do the assimilation. A sort of backward process actually.

[Spanner69]

I firmly do not believe in any religion or religous leader or the easter bunny ...but Santa is one dude who I have learnt to believ ein cause then I get pressents!

Anyhoo ..... I firmly believe the right for people to dress as they see fit if they believe in some unseen leader/god/dess etc etc if they so choose to.

My only stipulation to this is so long as that dress does not offend the greater public.

Not being able to see someones eys/face/etc is NOT offensive ..... just uncomfortable for some people.

I think if banks have such an issue about the security issue then they should get people to walk through metal detectors or somesuch and NOT just for those who are wearing burqas ... should be for every one because I think you will find statistics are that a majority of bank robberies and other violent hold ups are conducted by people wearing easy to get rid of desguises such as bunny rabit masks etc not clumsy wads and eads of cloth that actually cut down the ak robbers vision as well as being hard to dispose of once out and running in the street.

I say ban all masks that may just possibly hide ones features, no sunglassesses allowed because we can not identify your eye colour, men are not allowed to wear beards due to fact they hide facial features and can be shaved therefore changing your apearence, by the way .... I also think we should all wear the same hair style, have the same colour hair etc etc etc etc ......


maybe we should all wear uniforms and wear electronic ID tags with GPS trackers and such so that big brother can keep tabs on us .....

oh ... wait ... were we just talking about a burqa wern't we??????

[kiwigeo]

I find teens wearing hoodies more threatening than Muslim women wearing burqas.

[hughie]

The problem is that the concept or process, if you want to call it that, of assimilation has been watered down and there is in current society a tendency not to assimilate. There has unfortunately become a process of bringing along the home country's baggage and in essence demanding that this accepted and we must do the assimilation. A sort of backward process a


I tend to agree, multiculturalism has not been the best political policy I have seen.
Its seems 'they' those in power have among other things endeavored to try and please everybody re immigrants etc and have pleased none. :C

[Spanner69]

I find teens wearing hoodies more threatening than Muslim women wearing burqas.


I agree wholeheartedly with this particular statement.

Well Said!!!

[two fingers]

I find teens wearing hoodies more threatening than Muslim women wearing burqas.

Until they have 5kg of plastic explosive strapped to them

[jimbur]

Until they have 5kg of plastic explosive strapped to them

I have no such worries. I find women in burqas no more threatening than the automatic teller machines I mentioned earlier. What I dislike is the ideology of which the burqa is an outward symbol.
If it were just a fashion statement it wouldn't matter to me because in the course of things it would be ephemeral and harmless.
However it can be seen to symbolise an extreme interpretation of a particular religion one which appears to view women as second-class and through this view distorts the attitude of its young (and presumably older) men to women who do not comply with the strict dress code.
This is without even bringing in elements such as jihad and fatwah.
As such it seems to be at odds with our notion of liberal society. We may not always manage to live in a civilised way but at least we strive for equality, not to define differences.
Jim

[paulsmithx]

I don't actually know why Muslim women wear the burqa, or the hijab (sp?). I don't know what it symbolizes within their religion. I am not across the history of the wearing, or not, of these things within Islam apart from what I've heard on the radio.

I've never asked a Muslim woman what it means, or what it means to her to wear it - within her culture, within her religion and within our society.

I'm looking forward to that conversation.
Paul

[cultana]

I don't actually know why Muslim women wear the burqa, or the hijab (sp?). I don't know what it symbolizes within their religion. I am not across the history of the wearing, or not, of these things within Islam apart from what I've heard on the radio.

I've never asked a Muslim woman what it means, or what it means to her to wear it - within her culture, within her religion and within our society.

I'm looking forward to that conversation.
Paul

Hmmm Suggest you do a little google on niqab and hijab.
From my limited understanding matters to do with women of the Islamic faith not presenting a provocative appearance, that is dress with out attracting attention. Note very loose definition.

[cultana]

Until they have 5kg of plastic explosive strapped to them

This may be more of a problem if you have a rotation in the sand pit.

[damian]

I've been an athiest all my life, but pastafarianism is looking like a tasty option.

As for religeous dress/practice/whatever I think it's simple. In public spaces if it complies with the law of the land, and on private land whatever the owner says goes.

Islam isn't the problem, fundamentalism is. Christian fundamentaists do tremendous evil in this world, it's just that western media don't report it at all, or else misrepresent it. You should try reading some of the dali lama's stuff. You think the pope's conservative ? not even close...

It's all media spin.

Oh and science is just another belief system. Yeah it's the one I embrace, but I'm old enough and ugly enough to realise I'm not always right. (but don't tell anyone I said that)

[HappyHammer]

The problem is that the concept or process, if you want to call it that, of assimilation has been watered down and there is in current society a tendency not to assimilate. There has unfortunately become a process of bringing along the home country's baggage and in essence demanding that this accepted and we must do the assimilation. A sort of backward process actually.

I don't think this is a current tendency it's been a tendency for a long time. Just look at America where they still hang on to their ethnic backgrounds. Ooops hang on that's because Americans don't have an identitiy.:U

Some in the US carried this so far as to put money into collection tins paraded at Irish pubs to fund the IRA terrorists despite the fact they had never been to Ireland nor understood the conflict and were 20th generation "Irish" Americans.... ironic that terrorism is now their number one fear.

HH.

[hughie]

I find teens wearing hoodies more threatening than Muslim women wearing burqas.

:U get your own hoodie and a sinister old bloke.