It's just a bloody deck

[silentC]

Have started going through the motions of getting approval to extend a couple of decks at home. I had almost forgotten the joys of dealing with the local regulatory authority.

If the work is valued at $5000 or greater, you need an owner builder permit to do it yourself. If it's greater than $12,000 you need to do a TAFE course to get one. Based on the council's 'industry standard' figure of $316 per m2, ours comes in at $14,000. Even though this 'industry standard' is not set in stone - if I get someone to build it and they charge me more than that, I can't use it as a basis for complaint - the council insists that this is the 'true value' of the work. It doesn't matter if you are doing it yourself, or if you are buying secondhand materials to build it, they use this figure as a basis for charging you fees.

Now the problem is, I don't own the house - it belongs to my parents. This means that for the sake of $2000, my old man has to go and do a TAFE course (and pass it) in order to get an owner builder permit so that we can build a freaking deck.

The Dept. of Fair Trading admits that the 'industry standard' doesn't really exist - it's not in legislation - but they can only apply what is on the plan. The council says that they have to apply the 'industry standard' when costing it and don't have discretion. Their advice to me is to break it up into two separate developments over a period of time. A cynic would suggest that this doubles the fixed portion of their fees.

Does the council have discretion to say "well, OK since it's just a deck, we accept $11,999 as a reasonable figure", or does it come down to who you know on the council?

The alternative is to trim a bit off the decks. It just seems a ludicrous situation. When I complained about having to do a TAFE course, the woman at the council (why are they always named 'June') told me it was in our best interests to make sure we knew how to do things properly. I aked why that was any less important if the deck was valued by them at $11,000. No answer to that.

BTW, if it costs anything like $14,000, we wont be doing it.

:mad:

[Termite]

Silent, go up to your nearest brick wall and pound your head into it for an hour. Then say to yourself "Do I want a lot more of that" if the answer is yes then continue to have dealings with the council.

On the other hand if the answer is no, then consider several things:-
Is the planned extension in plain view from the street. Do you plan to stay there for quite a while. Do you get on well with your neighbours.

The point is if you can get away with just doing it then, unless the Council sees it, you wont have to do anything untill the place is sold at some time in the future.

[silentC]

Unfortunately this one is in plain view from the street. The neighbours probably wouldn't dob us in but there's so much building going on up and down the street, we're bound to get a visit from the local BI who knows all about every job in town. I prefer to keep them out of it when possible but I think this one needs to be done above board.

When the time comes to sell the place (if it ever does) the new owners will be quite surprised at just how different it is to the plans held by council. They'll probably just run a dozer through it and build a 3-storey slab fronted mansion like the other ones in the street anyway.

[nine-to-fiver]

Hi Silent C,
Can you break the job up into smaller jobs and get it by that way?
Say do one side, then another side and then later join them? just a thought.
Some restumpers use this method, but i would not use them...........

[silentC]

Yes, I could break it up into two jobs of $7500 each. I'm not sure how long I have to wait until submitting the second one. It means paying more in fees though.

It just annoys me that they use these arbitrary cut-off amounts. It would make more sense to base it on size and complexity but that would be too hard for the counter staff to work out. A 50 m2 deck is not going to be any more complex to build than a 5 m2 deck but the implication is that it would be. At the end of the day, they're just after your money.

[PAH1]

Hi SilentC

Went through this a couple of years ago in Canberra. It cost us an extra $3K or thereabouts to get approval. We had a pergola at the back of about 42m2, it was roofed with alsonite but the plans were for shadecloth and it had no gutter on it or decent battons. We put a deck in and then had to re roof the thing, re batton it and put a gutter on, then we had the fees.

However irritating we are glad we did it. After all with liability stuff, what insurance company is going to cover you for an accident off something that does not exist? Or is if burns down from that turbocharged BBQ grease fire, then it is on plan to replace.

The funny bit is that nobody really actually knows what the building standards mean and do not really know how to interpret them, it is all opinion. We had something a bit odd in our construction and every planner gave us a different opinion as to what what the actual requirement.

[DaveInOz]

It appears that some councils have different requirements for building works that are not permenantly attached to the house. AFAIK In my area if you bolt your pergola to the house, and to stirups then you don't need a permit. Well it is more complicated than that but you get the idea.
Might be worth checking.

[Slavo]

Yes, I could break it up into two jobs of $7500 each. I'm not sure how long I have to wait until submitting the second one. It means paying more in fees though.

You can submit them both at once if you like. There is nothing stopping you lodging an application for the left side, then the right. Council have to consider each on its merits.

[silentC]

I checked with the Dept. of Fair Trading. It was more the owner builder permit situation I was concerned about. Seems you can apply for as many permits as you like with no delay in between as long as they are all on the same property. So that's one solution. It actually is in two sections, one on the top floor and one below, so I can logically split it up and do separate applications.

It means Owner Builder permit fee x 2, various council fees x 2. Will probably cost about $400-500 more doing it that way. The TAFE course is about $160 and it can be done over the Internet... the old man isn't up on PCs and the Internet... but then, I wonder how they'd know it wasn't him who did it... :D

[jackiew]

I'm intrigued as to where the industry standard figure comes from?

Do you think if you got a quote from a local tradesman for the work it would actually come to their industry standard figure? If you can get a quote for less than $12,000 then it is unreasonable of the council to believe that it will cost more ( obviously their figures are out of date ).

[silentC]

It's a good question. They can't answer it, at least the counter staff can't. All they know is that it's 'in the computer'. They ask you what type of construction, does it have a roof, how many square metres - bingo. Can't argue with them about it because it's 'in the computer'.

I wonder what would happen if I got a quote... They'd probably tell me that, for their purposes, the 'industry standard' is used for estimating the cost. I bet they wouldn't give me a refund if it came in under what they said it would cost.

[jackiew]

being a totally bloody minded individual I think I would be escalating the matter of where they get their cost from to the next level of management ... remember local councils are supposed to serve US.

Can't believe they can use a standard figure .... difference in price between using treated pine and using jarrah. you could be building a deck which is 6 inches off of the ground or 6 feet which would make a huge difference to the cost. What kind of soil its on makes a difference for stumps etc.

Someone wrote the computer program so somewhere there should be the requirements for it ... including what values to put in where and where to obtain them from.

I have to say I'm still reeling from the level of over-regulation here. Of course the trigger points of $5000 and $12000 aren't indexed to the cost of living etc. The same way that the trigger points for some of the taxation laws ( federal and state ) aren't indexed either. One taxation law I read up on recently had an exemption for holdings under $x. This was introduced more than 10 years ago and surprise surprise the exemption is still for holdings under $x despite the passage of time. Its quite neat of them when you think about it. Introduce a law which doesn't catch many people initially knowing that if you let inflation do its work all of a sudden you are going to catch lots of people and your income will jump dramatically.

[Eastie]

Silent,
The council money collection system is meant to be bypassed.
Unless you are doing other works in the near future that will also require the SS to inspect, I suggest you go so far as getting an appropriate design that takes into account any engineering factors and then construct it yourself - minus any building approvals. The chance of being found out is 1,000,000:1 - even if your parents sell up no-one I know has ever had a buyer check approval with the council and then verify the as-builts. make sure of the design, take some photo's of each of the the footings and if you ever get caught out and need retrospective building approval you're in with a chance

Eastie.

[silentC]

Well, that's an alternative I suppose, but what do I do if Fred the inspector drives past and sees us building it and thinks to self "hmm, I know they don't have approval for that because I would know if they did".

[PAH1]

Silent,
The council money collection system is meant to be bypassed.
Unless you are doing other works in the near future that will also require the SS to inspect, I suggest you go so far as getting an appropriate design that takes into account any engineering factors and then construct it yourself - minus any building approvals. The chance of being found out is 1,000,000:1 - even if your parents sell up no-one I know has ever had a buyer check approval with the council and then verify the as-builts. make sure of the design, take some photo's of each of the the footings and if you ever get caught out and need retrospective building approval you're in with a chance

Eastie.

Actually in Canberra it is part of the sale process. When we bought our current place it was with absolute certainty of what was and was not approved. Sometimes it can be bypassed by building it first and then getting the approvals, however they will still use that "industry standard" figure for the costings.

[duckman]

Well, that's an alternative I suppose, but what do I do if Fred the inspector drives past and sees us building it and thinks to self "hmm, I know they don't have approval for that because I would know if they did".

I'm with Eastie on this SilentC. Its often quicker and easier, if the need arises, to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. Just an observation.

Build it well and to the regs. in your state and I doubt you'll have a problem with anyone.

As for Fred, just how small a town is Pambula Beach? It must be pretty damn small in an inspector can remember what building works are proceeding with a permit and those that are not.

You know your town better than I do, but I think you might be worrying unnecessarily.

Cheers,

[Barry_White]

You could actually build it without approval but if they do find out they can actully force you to pull it down without giving you approval after the fact. I know of several instances in the area where I live where the council has actully done this.

[Sturdee]

The joys of living in a country town where the BI ( or SOB) knows every permit approval. :eek:

Here the council is no longer the only one to issue permits, there are lots of permit shops around that also issue permits.

Also our council has not retained copies of old approved plans. I believe anything over 15 or 20 years was destroyed. Very difficult for them to argue if something is build without permit. :D

Peter.

[Eastie]

It's horses for courses. If you are using a private building surveyor the council wouldn't know until after the fact anyway, but in a small town it's a risk. Also I agree there's the hastle of trying to find a surveyor who'll sign off after the deed is done - difficult if you don't know them and you do face the risk of taking the thing down - therefore don't use glue: use bolts so you can put it back up:D It's interesting to see that other states have tighter controls on the sale of real estate - in Victoria it's buyer beware.

[jackiew]

in Victoria it's buyer beware.

Not sure about that Eastie. When I bought my house last year the seller had to declare any works done in the past 6.5 years. Which then meant I could go to the council and check the permits.

Presumably if they failed to mention something and I found out I could then sue them.

Disclosure to purchasers is one area where they have really cracked down in the uk ... if you sell a house there you have to tell the purchaser all sorts of stuff including if you've had any disputes with the neighbours, made complaints about them to the council etc. Which means if the family from hell moves in next door to you you can't just sell your house to some unsuspecting soul :-( And there have been prosecutions where people haven't disclosed things that they've known about their property.

[PAH1]

As part of the sale process here the building inspector is authorised to get the plans held on file and give you a list of what has been approved. This turned out to be handy as we were able to use the plans when we filed for the alterations to the house, as all we were doing was modifying an existing structure we did not need to get neighbours approval for the mods.

Jackiew
In the netherlands you must give a reason why you are moving out. My sister in law went through this recently. They moved in next to the neighbours from hell, and then she got cancer. After coping a heap of abuse from the neighbours while going through chem etc they decided to move. The "reason" bad associations with the house and her sickness. The person that bought the house lasted even less time and was reselling within 6 months. There are ways around just about everything.

[silentC]

In NSW, owner builders have to guarantee their work for 5 years. When we sold our house in Sydney, we had to provide the new owner with warranty insurance to cover the extension that we built. The policy lapses after 5 years from the date on the council's certificate of occupancy. We still have about 2 years to go on that, so I hope it doesn't collapse. This flows on to any subsequent buyers during the 5 year period and details of the work done plus the insurance policy are attached to the contract.

[himzol]

Can't argue with them about it because it's 'in the computer'.

Send them a virus :D :D :D

[jackiew]

we had to provide the new owner with warranty insurance to cover the extension that we built. The policy lapses after 5 years from the date on the council's certificate of occupancy.

my understanding, at least in victoria, is that it is almost impossible for the house owner to actually claim on the insurance. You would have to be either dead or bankrupt for the new owner to claim on the insurance. So the insurers are raking in a lot of money for not a lot of effort .... and if the extension falls down then you as the builder get to pay for it apart from any bits which cost more than $12,000 which you contracted out ... then whoever you contracted it out to should have had their own warranty insurance for that bit.

I was interested to learn on a recent owner builders course in victoria that its the certificate of occupancy which determines when the insurance period starts. so if you have a project under one permit ( e.g garage and 2 extensions to different bits of the house ) and you finish most of it in one year but the 2nd extension drags on and doesn't get completed until the end of year 4 then they ignore the fact that the rest of the project has already been done for 3 years and restart the clock.

[silentC]

The way it is supposed to work is that the insurer attempts to contact you to make good. If they fail, the house owner makes a claim on the policy to have it fixed. The insurer then pursues you to the ends of the earth. Whether it works that way in practice or not, I don't really know.

The whole scenario is unpleasant for all involved and it's only getting worse. I asked my brother in law last night if his contractor's license would allow him to do my job, rather than me getting an owner builder permit. He doesn't know. The poor guy is totally confused about what he can and can't do. I reckon the building industry is going to be in big trouble soon because nobody wants to take on small jobs. It's not worth the stress trying to work out what you need insurance-wise etc.

[nine-to-fiver]

Silent,

It would seem to me that you can do the course instead of you father, my wife pointed this out to me-

Quote:

Work is carried out by the owner of the dwelling, or someone with a prescribed intrest in the land.

House and Garden : March 2003 Edition

Lets say you live there? Your father is unable to do the work, bad health? To me you have a prescribed intrest in the land, not sure, ring the Sydney Building Information Center, PH: 8303 0525.
Hay its worth a telephone call.............

Scott.

[silentC]

I think prescribed implies some sort of legal interest, but you're right, it's worth a phone call.

[Dylan SJ]

Silent,

... take some photo's of each of the the footings and if you ever get caught out and need retrospective building approval you're in with a chance

Eastie.
The only problem is that a Building Surveyor cannot issue a building permit for building work that has already started, let alone been completed. You cannot even dig a stump hole before a building permit is issued. Consequently, you can never get an occupany permit for illegal work, even if it complies with building regulations. This is for Victoria but I cannot see NSW being too different as state laws are gradually becoming aligned.

[jackruss]

My two cents.


I have done the owner builder course, in NSW.

I have my OHS green card.

That said I have never had a council officier on any of my constructions.

I use a my own PCA ( I think its privat certifying agent). THis means I get me DA and my CC, build to code and then get my PCA to check that is what I have done.

Council do what I tell tell them, which is stay the hell away from my house.

One final note, if the council does inspect your deck and passes the footings, the stucture and the deck and the handrails and then it falls over, they have NO legal responsibility. So why the hell pay them to check your work!!

Build it well rely on your own knowledge or that of your architect and structural engineer ( they both have prof indemnity insurance)

JR

[vsquizz]

In battling with the three different lines of BS that my council has fed me on the one job (They have all been wrong) it seems the only interest the council has is;

a) Delaying the job for 4-6 weeks (if we are lucky)
b) Charging me fees
c) Generally being unable to read an engineer certified structural drawing
d) Charging me more fees
e) Re-valuing my property and putting up my rates
f) Being unable to comply with the relavent statutory regulations such as the Local Government Act and the Dividing fence Act, and
g) did I mention trying to double charge me the extra fees they already charged me but never told me about in the first place.
h) accepting no responsibility for their past errors which I am attempting to rectify.

Local Government should be just that. Local Engineering can be done by local engineers under the direction of independent qualified engineers (with no vested interest or interference from shiny bum councillors):mad:

Our council runs a good library:) but I know an incompetent idiot when I'm talking to one.

I feel a bit better now.

Silent. See if you can get a couple of quotes and continue in a cheerful vein to try and get the council to "consider" your case in light of the quotes. This has worked for me in a similar case. You need to put it in front of them in Black & White. Phone calls to the council are about as handy as cancer of the testicles unless its all on paper in the first place.;)


Cheers

[Eastie]

The only problem is that a Building Surveyor cannot issue a building permit for building work that has already started, let alone been completed. You cannot even dig a stump hole before a building permit is issued. Consequently, you can never get an occupany permit for illegal work, even if it complies with building regulations. This is for Victoria but I cannot see NSW being too different as state laws are gradually becoming aligned.As I said - it's horses for courses. I've had two permits issued after the works started - it's not impossible nor illegal - the risk is on the building surveyor/inspector and their registration. As I said - if you know them (ie. are good mates with one) anything is possible - except for aligning state based legislation and rail gauges.

As for the buyer beware bit - in Vic there is the section 32 and I guess if the seller doesn't diclose something you could take legal action. The normal action is to inspect the property with the intent of find flaws (like unathorised additions/structural renovations, etc) with the s32 and negotiate the price down - if they don't want to negotiate they'll have to list the new info you've uncovered on the s32 to all other potential buyers. Anyhow as usual I'm way off the topic.