self funded retirees

[nine fingers]

How many woodies in the last week or so have seen their superannuation hit for a six.:oo: Since Rudd the duds budget , tax on mining, and other balls up, utter waste of MY money, insulation,stimulus packages ,etc ,what do we do.:~
I worked bloody hard all my years without any hand outs, didn't even get the the money hand out when Rudd was giving everything away :?
I'm p----d off with anyone that thinks that Labour can run this country.
While I'm at it brumbles Brumby gets a mention too, Billions of dollars wasted
Since Labour has been in power in Victoria,cost over runs on every thing they touch, fast trains, Myki, roads ,desal water, anything they put their finger on blows out. How much longer do I, or we have to put up with these governments. End of rant nine fingers

[wheelinround]

NF sorry we all pay GST to fund this so we all suffer not just self funded retirees.

NSW is no different trouble is all those projects are private in both states but we are still forking out the $$$ for it. Now figure that one out.

[Ruddy]

And so say all of us!
Spare a thought for your neigbours. We reckon you have it good in Victoria....... In NSW we have a State Government that is the best that money can buy and still we vote them in every four years.
Just when you think they could not get any worse they always find a way.

[artme]

labor!! Hard bloody labor.

See where the incoming British government has no money to run the counrty! That is thanks to labor!

Frankly, I don't care much who is in government. My main concern is that we get GOOD government. It is apparent that we do not seem to be getting that any where in Australia.

Not all the problems stem from government decisions, but I'd reckon that a majority do.

[ian]

NSW is no different trouble is all those projects are private in both states but we are still forking out the $$$ for it. Now figure that one out.it's quite simple really.
the private sector builds something like a desal plant on a "take or pay" basis -- which essentially means the ultimate customer (with desal water that's you or I) agree to either buy the plant's output or if it rains and the dams are full, pay for water the plant doesn't produce.

The "take or pay" concept is widespread
BHP wont open a new coal mine unless they have a forward contract of some sort for the coal.
Your local shopping centre will have a "use it or pay for it" lease agreement with the so called anchor tenants -- typically Coles, Wollies, David Jones, Myers. For example, in years gone by, it was usual for DJs or Myers to signup for a 40 year lease in a new shopping centre.

[ian]

Frankly, I don't care much who is in government. My main concern is that we get GOOD government. It is apparent that we do not seem to be getting that any where in Australia.

Not all the problems stem from government decisions, but I'd reckon that a majority do.I think the problem is us.
we keep electing governments on the basis of a 10 second "sound bite" or a "beauty contest" or personal issues like what size tax cut will I get.

Only rarely do we as an electorate engage our pollies in any real discussion about the sort of future we would like to have.

[Frank&Earnest]

I think the problem is us.
we keep electing governments on the basis of a 10 second "sound bite" or a "beauty contest" or personal issues like what size tax cut will I get.

Only rarely do we as an electorate engage our pollies in any real discussion about the sort of future we would like to have.

Quite. But I must have a bad memory, I can't recall any of the rare real discussions you mention happening in the last 30 years. Unless you call the routing caused by Workchoices the result of a "discussion".

But let's go to the basics: the two party system does not allow the minority of thinking people to have a voice. If we are too stupid to change the system we deserve what we got.

[Sebastiaan56]

But let's go to the basics: the two party system does not allow the minority of thinking people to have a voice. If we are too stupid to change the system we deserve what we got.

You're getting as cynical as me Frank.....

A couple of miner points (pun intended). The mining tax is by no means a certainty despite the bleating of the mining industry. Firstly he has to get it through the Senate, Libs wont support it and St Steve Fielding wont because he wont. If Fortesque's project wont get off the ground its because they cant sell what they propose to dig out and therefore no one will finance it. What is not told is the generous exploration concessions and insurance for failed projects that are part of the package.

What is not so widely reported is that ore prices are plumetting, that is why your BHP and Rio shares are getting trashed. Add that to Europe entering a recessionary phase, China's massive ore stockpiles and then you have some real reasons for the falling market. I got really annoyed when Howard and Costello took the credit for a resources boom fuelled economy now Swan is trying the same trick. Both "L"s are the same as far as I can tell and I am yet to be convinced that either one changes our economy when our economy relies on foreign miners digging Aussie minerals to sell overseas to sell back to us as manufactured goods and sending the profits overseas to their parents in London and Capetown. All my great grandchildren will inherit is a bunch of bloody great big holes in the ground.

A pox on their rancid egos......


end of my rave....

[jimbur]

Some years ago Robert E Looney (sic) published a paper on the problems caused by mineral wealth on the development of third world economies.
His argument was that the wealth coming into a country caused a reliance on that wealth to the detriment of industry within the country. He believed imports would prevent any development of home grown industry as it was far easier to spend overseas than invest locally.
His paper was only looking at the third world but some of his conclusions are relevant to Australia today. How many of those enjoying the Australian economic 'miracle' are reliant on jobs in sectors which have an almost total reliance on imports?
Cheers,
Jim

[kiwigeo]

So here we have a tax on "super profits" which for some reason is focused on the mining industry. What about the other industries producing super profits like our banks??? Banks earn their profit with assistance from the govt (guarantee on savings post last market glitch) and take far less risks than do the mining industry.

The mining super tax has been poorly thought out by Rudd and co. One overlooked side effect of this tax is going to be a spate of take overs of many of the small miners who suddenly find themselves unable to go ahead with projects due to lack of capital. No doubt the Chinese will be rubbing their hands with glee...

[Frank&Earnest]

Sebastiaan: I am afraid my cynicism goes back a long time... keep in mind that I am in Australia because I made a decision that this country seemed the best place where to live, after all...

Jimbur: spot on. But why do you separate Australia from the third world? :D

Kiwigeo: sorry mate, but the comparison does not stack up. Without entering the discussion whether nationalism is good or evil, (and there is no point arguing that banks are prostitutes, that's what they are) the difference is that banks provide a service here with money which can come from everywhere and go ewerywhere, the miners take a bit of the nation's sovereignty away, never to come back. If we had coal for 4 years instead of 400 years, would you want to sell it or keep it? As regards the Chinese buying small miners, they are already doing it, hence the desire to get a better price for what we sell. There are laws for limiting foreign ownership, what you might want to find out is whether they are as strong as you would like them or not.

We are little leprechauns sitting on the pot of gold. Let's just trade it while we can and hope that in 50 years time when finite resources are dwindling the big boys don't just come and kick our children's ass out of it.

[jimbur]

...

Jimbur: spot on. But why do you separate Australia from the third world? :D

.

That's what the paper was about but, as you imply, even if we have first world incomes the precursors to third world living definitely exist here.
The same problem was seen in the UK and other parts of Europe with North Sea oil.
Cheers,
Jim

[kiwigeo]

How many of those enjoying the Australian economic 'miracle' are reliant on jobs in sectors which have an almost total reliance on imports?
Cheers,
Jim

Im going to turn that question around and ask how many people are in jobs that benefit directly or indirectly from the activities of the mining industry.

Lets look at who benefits each time I go off to work:

1. Taxi from residence to airport.
2. Qantas flight from Adelaide to Perth. Full fare as I often have to make last minute changes to my departure date.
3. Taxi from Perth Airport to a hotel in Perth CBD.
4. Room and meals at Perth Hotel.
5. Another taxi fare from Perth CBD out to the airport.
6. Skywest flight is up to 4 hours late departing 9 time out of 10 so $20 gets spent on meals and coffee at Perth Airport.
7. Skywest flight from Perth to Exmouth. The govt also gets a nice big bonus with the exorbitant landing fee they charge civil aircraft landing at Learmonth RAAF base.
8. Bristows helicopter flight from Exmouth to oil rig. Bristows are a foreign owned company but staff are all either locals or Perth based.

Now compare that with the number of people who directly or indirectly benefit every time a bank employee heads off to work??

[Frank&Earnest]

...Now compare that with the number of people who directly or indirectly benefit every time a bank employee heads off to work??

Easy. All of us. Didn't you see what happens when banks don't do their job properly? I am sure Nine Fingers had a few choice words, as I had, to express on that point when the GFC killed a quarter of our investments. Whatever the stupidity of our politicians, at least they kept enough control on the banks to avoid the excesses that have bankrupted Iceland. Or our bankers were smart enough to avoid these excesses anyway and therefore save the backside of our politicians. Take your pick. :)

[jimbur]

Im going to turn that question around and ask how many people are in jobs that benefit directly or indirectly from the activities of the mining industry.

Lets look at who benefits each time I go off to work:

1. Taxi from residence to airport.
2. Qantas flight from Adelaide to Perth. Full fare as I often have to make last minute changes to my departure date.
3. Taxi from Perth Airport to a hotel in Perth CBD.
4. Room and meals at Perth Hotel.
5. Another taxi fare from Perth CBD out to the airport.
6. Skywest flight is up to 4 hours late departing 9 time out of 10 so $20 gets spent on meals and coffee at Perth Airport.
7. Skywest flight from Perth to Exmouth. The govt also gets a nice big bonus with the exorbitant landing fee they charge civil aircraft landing at Learmonth RAAF base.
8. Bristows helicopter flight from Exmouth to oil rig. Bristows are a foreign owned company but staff are all either locals or Perth based.

Now compare that with the number of people who directly or indirectly benefit every time a bank employee heads off to work??

You do make an excellent point for me. Most of the benefits are from service industries especially to the airlines which are reliant on foreign built aeroplanes and probably bought with money borrowed overseas.
Cheers,
Jim

[kiwigeo]

You do make an excellent point for me. Most of the benefits are from service industries especially to the airlines which are reliant on foreign built aeroplanes and probably bought with money borrowed overseas.
Cheers,
Jim

I don't quite follow your line of argument.

Even if the planes operated by Qantas and Skywest are foreign built, the passengers they fly generate income that goes predominantly to Australian owners and/or shareholders and the planes are also crewed and serviced predominantly by Australians.

Yes, all of the businesses I listed are service industries but why is that relevant? Service companies rely heavily on people to operate and that equals employment. All of the service companies I've listed except one (Bristows) are Australian owned and employ mainly Australians. My point is that its not just the CEO's and shareholders that benefit from the activities of mining and (oil and gas) companies.

To throw some figures into the equation....every time I do a hitch at work I spend around $4000 on travel and accomodation. I get in roughly 8 hitches a year which brings the total to $32,000. Add in a couple of cyclone evacuations and the total is getting up to around $40,000. That's the amount of money one person is injecting into the mainly WA service industry through working in the mining/oil and as game....you can quickly figure out that the total amount of money being injected into the Australian economy by all the country's mining and oil/gas workers is huge.

[powderpost]

I agree with N.F. The discussion about who benefits etc. is based on people being employed and having enough working life left, to recover from lost spending power and maintain an acceptable lifestyle. Many of us do not have that privilege and are at the mercy of market forces. This can seriously affect our quality of life. Many of us also are very reluctant or to proud to depend on government handouts.
Jim

[jimbur]

I don't quite follow your line of argument.

.

I was probably overstating the case by calling it my argument.
What I meant was that elements in Looney's article on problems of mineral wealth in the third world could also be seen as applying to Australia in that there is a risk that reliance on one sector of the economy can be detrimental to the development of a more balanced general economy.
The benefits gained from primary production be it mineral, forestry or agricultural or made far greater if value adding can undertaken within the country than if that happens overseas. A simple example is wool which is exported in the raw state and returns as finished articles. A greater flow-on effect is enjoyed by the countries with the means of secondary production.
There is no argument that any productive endeavour creates the need for a service industry and that has flow-on effects as you have described. The danger postulated by Looney (unfortunate name I realise) is that it is so much easier and seemingly cheaper to import consumer and other goods than to develop those industries internally. In the event of a downturn in the value of primary production, whether through market vagaries or simple depletion of the natural resource whatever it may be, there is the risk of a far greater downturn in the economy than if home production took a greater share of the consumer demand.
Cheers,
Jim

[cultana]

One if the main problems in Australia is that it is a service centred economy. There is primary production but the necessary secondary industries to gain from that are really few in comparison and appear to be diminishing.
This is a result of us hugging the flat/level playing field that our governments decided we had to have.
With lack of secondary industries we as a nation are dependent on imports of our exported raw products. This puts us at a disadvantage in the long term.

As far a self funded retiree, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
I worked hard long hours and now I get only what I have from my retirement fund, yet I see much of the local trash spending $$ as if it is like water and they get benefits I can but dream of.
Where did I go wrong???

But listen carefully to a political party and you will see that self funded retiree is a fat cat so to speak.

[Fuzzie]

More than 1 issue running here.

1. Why do politicians all seem so incompetent with their noses in the trough?

It's clearly a difficult job otherwise we would have good politicians, universally liked. When was the last good government that all can agree on? Politicians by definition play politics and records of public disenchantment with politicians can be found in historical records going back thousands of years. Basically politics appeals to a certain type of person and the bigger the ego, the better. We just have to hope in a democracy that the electoral system filters out the worst contenders and that debate and consensus work to result in a sane outcome.

Often the problem is that you don't feel like voting for any of the available candidates. I've felt like that at the last few Queensland elections. But if you don't have a credible opposition what do you do? The next federal election is shaping up the same way for me. Similar with local politics, there's usually a lot of people standing to go on the local council, but figuring out what they actually stand for is usually a challenge.

2. Why don't we build it at home and why must we be a service oriented economy?

Mechanization, mass production and economies of scale make other options a challenge. If the population was content to pay 10 times the price and wait years (decades?) longer to access new technologies then maybe you could do it all at home. However the model economies for doing it all at home aren't that encouraging, Burma and North Korea come to mind.

Even if you think you have the market cornered in some super technology the economies of scale in China will still make it difficult, if they want to enter that market. A news item I was reading recently was about the Japanese worrying about loosing the lead in high speed train technology. It seems China needs high speed trains and the economies of scale they expect will make the Japanese technology expensive.

3. Investment/Superannuation returns.

It's hard to make a buck and it is very scary working out how much you really need to be comfortably self funded. With recent experience and hindsight it is even scarier, but if you look at the really long term charts, things seem to be still going in the normal direction. Relatively the early 70's look far worse, which was when I started work. I hope things don't keep trending down like that for the next 10 years! Personally I find the thought of what all the sovereign debt problems could do to the world terrifying, but what do you invest in to make yourself safe?

[Frank&Earnest]

One if the main problems in Australia is that it is a service centred economy. There is primary production but the necessary secondary industries to gain from that are really few in comparison and appear to be diminishing.
This is a result of us hugging the flat/level playing field that our governments decided we had to have.
With lack of secondary industries we as a nation are dependent on imports of our exported raw products. This puts us at a disadvantage in the long term.

As far a self funded retiree, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
I worked hard long hours and now I get only what I have from my retirement fund, yet I see much of the local trash spending $$ as if it is like water and they get benefits I can but dream of.
Where did I go wrong???

But listen carefully to a political party and you will see that self funded retiree is a fat cat so to speak.

I often feel the same way Cultana, but if the local trash have money to spend it is because they have some funny source of income. Last I looked the dole is less than 1/3 of what you earn as a minimum to be off the pension.

[kiwigeo]

2. Why don't we build it at home and why must we be a service oriented economy?

Mechanization, mass production and economies of scale make other options a challenge. If the population was content to pay 10 times the price and wait years (decades?) longer to access new technologies then maybe you could do it all at home. However the model economies for doing it all at home aren't that encouraging, Burma and North Korea come to mind.

Even if you think you have the market cornered in some super technology the economies of scale in China will still make it difficult, if they want to enter that market. A news item I was reading recently was about the Japanese worrying about loosing the lead in high speed train technology. It seems China needs high speed trains and the economies of scale they expect will make the Japanese technology expensive.



You left out one important factor......China's vast supply of cheap labour. China is where Japan was post WWII. As Japan's labour costs started to increase (people started rebelling against the idea of the company being more important than one's family) the world turned to other countries like Korea for cheap goods. Eventually Korean labour costs will increase and the cheap labour train will move on to another country..until we eventually run out of countries I guess.

[Frank&Earnest]

... If the population was content to pay 10 times the price and wait years (decades?) longer to access new technologies then maybe you could do it all at home....


Yep. That's why it should have been started a long time ago. I can never understand why Australians seem to be very fond of Britain when they were treated no better than the Indians. And Australians never had anybody with the stature of a Gandhi to tell them to weave their own cotton.

[cultana]

I often feel the same way Cultana, but if the local trash have money to spend it is because they have some funny source of income. Last I looked the dole is less than 1/3 of what you earn as a minimum to be off the pension.

Sort of true. But if I have the govt pension, be it age or disability, I would have a lot more concessions than the ZERO ones I have at present. Same applies if I was on the dole.

The big funny source is drying up and will do so even faster when the Army finally takes over the extended Cultana range.:D

[cultana]

More than 1 issue running here.

1. Why do politicians all seem so incompetent with their noses in the trough?

It's clearly a difficult job otherwise we would have good politicians, universally liked. When was the last good government that all can agree on? Politicians by definition play politics and records of public disenchantment with politicians can be found in historical records going back thousands of years. Basically politics appeals to a certain type of person and the bigger the ego, the better. We just have to hope in a democracy that the electoral system filters out the worst contenders and that debate and consensus work to result in a sane outcome.:roflmao: (sorry just could not help it. the ideals are just too high.)


Why is it a difficult job? It may be more complex than say being a doctor, engineer, etc but that does not mean it is difficult.
The only difficult part is following the party line. It would seem that towing the strict party line is the stumbling block. If politicians were more interested in the states they come from and the needs of those states them the party line would be second to that needs and we might just by accident get real politicians who care in power.
Unfortunately many politicians are little more than trumped up party hacks.





2. Why don't we build it at home and why must we be a service oriented economy?

Mechanization, mass production and economies of scale make other options a challenge. If the population was content to pay 10 times the price and wait years (decades?) longer to access new technologies then maybe you could do it all at home. However the model economies for doing it all at home aren't that encouraging, Burma and North Korea come to mind.

Even if you think you have the market cornered in some super technology the economies of scale in China will still make it difficult, if they want to enter that market. A news item I was reading recently was about the Japanese worrying about loosing the lead in high speed train technology. It seems China needs high speed trains and the economies of scale they expect will make the Japanese technology expensive.


Well in many cases of build at home we as a nation and in reality our government do not push or in some cases hinder such ventures.
One such venture is the building and exporting of the Bushmaster IMV. This was on the list being looked at by the US but our delightful govt of the day did not move much to make it happen. This also applies with sales elsewhere.
During the war we built the Boomerang fighter and post war the Nomad aircraft. This ability to design and build and market such vanished and that was not really helped much by the govt.

Look at the many industries where we did build it at home and these have now vanished. The level playing field of trade helped heavily here. Notice it is no that level when we want to export to some countries. It is a one way street, them here, we not there. That is a govt problem.

[/QUOTE]

Yes we have a set of dud pollies and we are always told this can be fixed at the next election. Garbage!
One way that a nation keeps dud pollies less dud is having a real media that does real journalistic work. At present facts are few and far between in any media article and half the time the jurnos don't even know what they are writing about.
For the last 2 years most have been wetting their pants with religious hysteria every time a specific little Tin Tin look a like utters an incompressible phrase or two.

[Sebastiaan56]

For the last 2 years most have been wetting their pants with religious hysteria every time a specific little Tin Tin look a like utters an incompressible phrase or two.

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Yeh, its a bit like the Palestinians who chose a religious organisation that provided food and social service (Hamas) over the blatantly corrupt Fatah. They love it when democracies make the "wrong" choice. End of little aside.

To be fair, the governments have been sweetening up superannuation so that more people can afford to be self funded in retirement. The baby boomer lump is coming into retirement and the tax system will not be able to afford all those new pensioners. The tax take needs to be increased or we will have pensioners staging a revolution. Tax Departments and Treasuries are paid to deal with this and they will act according to their charters, they go looking for more tax. Ken Henry is just doing his job, he is running out of places to add taxes.

Yes, the stock market is doing what it always has done but few have the resources to ride out the vagaries and short term volatilities of the market. Increasingly Australia is subject to forces outside our borders and these will determine what happens in our markets. By delegating to large financial concerns self funded retirees can have continuity of income but they need to pay a fee for this and so reduce their absolute returns. Im in the phase where Im starting to plan for this and there are tough choices that need to be made.

And when all the easy, lucrative minerals have gone our grandchildren and great grandchildren will become the drones of those who bought and added value to our resources. Australians will have a lucrative business selling the holes in the ground as rubbish dumps for the rest of the world.

[jimbur]

Just a minor point but very important if you are a politician who wants to be seen as a good economic manager. Cheap imports put a damper on rises in the CPI.:D
Cheers,
Jim

[notenoughtoys]

Eventually Korean labour costs will increase and the cheap labour train will move on to another country..until we eventually run out of countries I guess.
Nah, I reckon it will go full circle and we'll become the 3rd world, cheap labour, country. At least it'll be payback time and we'll be able to annoy someone in Mumbai in the middle of their dinner to sell them some product they don't want. :U

[Frank&Earnest]

Australians will have a lucrative business selling the holes in the ground as rubbish dumps for the rest of the world.

Actually, that could be a brilliant idea, why don't we do it now? Given that Australia is said to be the most geologically stable continent and we already have a wonderful out of the way place already contaminated thanks to the already mentioned thoughtful care of the British, why don't we make Maralinga the site for the unbelievably high security world's sole deposit of nuclear waste? Much better for the planet than bribing corrupt tin pot countries to dump it in their water supplies and we would rake in the millions. Enough to double everybody's entitlement to the age pension. :D

[kiwigeo]

Actually, that could be a brilliant idea, why don't we do it now? Given that Australia is said to be the most geologically stable continent

Parts of Australia are relatively tectonically stable but other parts of the continent are actually quite active (eg Adelaide and surrounds). There are also other areas that are not suitable for dumping radioactive or other hazardous waste..such as the large part of eastern and south western Australia that overlies the Great Artesian Basin. The British tests produced radioactive atmospheric material that found its way east and into the charge areas of the GAB. Years later wells on the weatern edge of the GAB registered spikes in tritium and other radioactive isotopes that correspond to the British tests. The GAB aquifer varies in depth with maximum depths of the aquifers occuring at around 3000m.

Salt mines are the best places to stick hazardous waste but unfortunately Australia doesnt have alot of such mines. Abandoned oil/gas wells that penetrated into granitic basement are one good place to store radioactive waste if it can be suitably processed....vitrifying the waste material prior to burial at depth (Synrock) is one process that has been developed. Incidentally the Synrock process is an Australian invention and was being tested at Lucas heights back in the late 80's.

[kiwigeo]

Just a minor point but very important if you are a politician who wants to be seen as a good economic manager. Cheap imports put a damper on rises in the CPI.:D
Cheers,
Jim


Doesn't do much for our trade deficit though. A good economic manager is someone who can get a single roomed school tuck shop built for less than it costs to build a two storied Mcmansion. :D

[Frank&Earnest]

Parts of Australia are relatively tectonically stable but other parts of the continent are actually quite active (eg Adelaide and surrounds). There are also other areas that are not suitable for dumping radioactive or other hazardous waste..such as the large part of eastern and south western Australia that overlies the Great Artesian Basin. The British tests produced radioactive atmospheric material that found its way east and into the charge areas of the GAB. Years later wells on the weatern edge of the GAB registered spikes in tritium and other radioactive isotopes that correspond to the British tests. The GAB aquifer varies in depth with maximum depths of the aquifers occuring at around 3000m.

Salt mines are the best places to stick hazardous waste but unfortunately Australia doesnt have alot of such mines. Abandoned oil/gas wells that penetrated into granitic basement are one good place to store radioactive waste if it can be suitably processed....vitrifying the waste material prior to burial at depth (Synrock) is one process that has been developed. Incidentally the Synrock process is an Australian invention and was being tested at Lucas heights back in the late 80's.

Very interesting. So, is Maralinga suitable? If so, with our combined expertises we could put together a strong business case. :)

[kiwigeo]

Very interesting. So, is Maralinga suitable? If so, with our combined expertises we could put together a strong business case. :)


Possibly but couldnt give you an informed answer without looking at detailed studies of the sbsurface geology of the area. It appears to lie off the western margins of the GAB but it would lie within one of the other sedimentary basins of similar age (Triassic-Cretaceous roughly).

[Frank&Earnest]

Doesn't do much for our trade deficit though. A good economic manager is someone who can get a single roomed school tuck shop built for less than it costs to build a two storied Mcmansion. :D

Indeed. But I admit ignorance about the decision making process used in this instance. I would have assumed that once got a bucket of money from the Federal Government, it was up to the private school or the Education Department to go through a tender process or some other means to ensure that it was not being ripped off by the builders. We can give for granted that the builders would have milked the situation for all it was worth, but that's what a free market expects, doesn't it? When I was working as an internal auditor for the State, it was part of my job to do due diligence analyses to overcome these situations.

Anyway, we have veered away from the topic, if it was a genuine plea for the self funded retirees. I have a feeling that it was more of a political fishing expedition, though...:rolleyes:

[kiwigeo]

Indeed. But I admit ignorance about the decision making process used in this instance. I would have assumed that once got a bucket of money from the Federal Government, it was up to the private school or the Education Department to go through a tender process or some other means to ensure that it was not being ripped off by the builders.

Schools had very little say in what they got. A school in bad need of a proper assembly hall but already with an adequate tuck shop would be told they were going to get a new tuck shop or nothing.

This from The Australian..."...the Education Department pressured public school principals not to manage projects under the BER, warning them they could personally face $55,000 fines if injuries occurred, and schools that managed projects themselves could be "liable for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of extra building work. Instead, the department engaged seven managing contractors to handle the schools building scheme in NSW."

One school ended up with an 8 x 3m tuck shop that cost $650,000. Ive got a fully climate controlled 8 x 3m workshop and a fully lined double garage that only cost me $60,000 all up....it's big enough to serve as a tuck shop for a university. Something is seriously wrong here...

[Big Shed]

This thread seems to have run (or was pushed) off the original track somewhat, Maralinga, GAB and school tuck shops:doh:

[Sebastiaan56]

Enough to double everybody's entitlement to the age pension. :D

Only if we taxed the companies that got the job properly instead of the "incentives" they get offered to stay here.

[kiwigeo]

This thread seems to have run (or was pushed) off the original track somewhat, Maralinga, GAB and school tuck shops:doh:

Noted and actioned.

[nine fingers]

This thread seems to have run (or was pushed) off the original track somewhat, Maralinga, GAB and school tuck shops:doh:
Gee's Didn't think the thread I started would create so much discussion.
any way keep it going, John

[Greg Ward]

I've just changed Super companies. Mine was showing 'super' returns......from their investments in their own investments or something... all secret. Over 15% a year for many years.... looked good...
Suddenly, someone realised that their valuations on their own 'investments' were slippery, to me it seemed to be fraudulent overstatement of returns to get noticed in the market, but of course I was just probably p'...ed off.

All super companies fell, but this one managed a 'super' fall.
I dropped a large percentage, and worse the fund value stayed low. Although the stock market recovered..... their 'investment' stayed low and worthless.

6 weeks after my initial instruction, I received a letter stating that they needed another letter from my company stating that the deposit to them on ..... March 2010 was the last deposit, and if they didn't hear from me.... that they would conclude I didn't want to change.
A few nasty emails and I have at last finalised the change
I would have been better stocking up on VB.
I'm sticking to timber futures...

Regards
Greg

[kiwigeo]

I've just changed Super companies. Mine was showing 'super' returns......from their investments in their own investments or something... all secret. Over 15% a year for many years.... looked good...
Suddenly, someone realised that their valuations on their own 'investments' were slippery, to me it seemed to be fraudulent overstatement of returns to get noticed in the market, but of course I was just probably p'...ed off.


I take it this was a super fund run by an investment company. If they were not providing you with regular reports detailing a. how your super was being invested and b. an accurate run down of returns on at least an annual basis then they're in breach of the law.

If you initiated the fund via a financial advisor then he/she will have been making a nice little income out of the trailing fees. If there is or was an FA involved then go and pay them a visit and start asking them questions. One question you should ask them is exactly what they are doing for you in return for the trailing fees theyre being paid.

[jimbur]

What tends to irritate me is the advice you get from media pundits. Ride out the ups and downs in the market they say. The problem is that you can't choose to retire when funds are on the up and up and certainly can't guarantee the markets will drop just as they lower you into the grave.:D
Remember Pyramid. A few mates of mine certainly do.
cheers,
Jim

[Greg Ward]

Nope... It was a big industry fund.
But they had as part of their 'investment' a large part of the fund in a 'target' portfolio of some investments ???? which were never really divulged.
Perhaps they may have been somewhere in their annual report?
But not in the information mailed to me each 6 months.
Glossy, but not informative.
I'm happy to be out as a matter of principal.
Greg

[kiwigeo]

Nope... It was a big industry fund.
But they had as part of their 'investment' a large part of the fund in a 'target' portfolio of some investments ???? which were never really divulged.
Perhaps they may have been somewhere in their annual report?
But not in the information mailed to me each 6 months.
Glossy, but not informative.
I'm happy to be out as a matter of principal.
Greg

They are required to at least state the nature of the investments..ie stocks, property, bonds etc. Alot of the funds dont bother mailing you hard copies of annual returns any more but therell be an option to request same or have one emailed to you.

[kiwigeo]

What tends to irritate me is the advice you get from media pundits. Ride out the ups and downs in the market they say. The problem is that you can't choose to retire when funds are on the up and up and certainly can't guarantee the markets will drop just as they lower you into the grave.:D
Remember Pyramid. A few mates of mine certainly do.
cheers,
Jim

Jim,

If youre close to retirement you should be considering moving at least some of your super into less volatile sectors such as fixed interest etc. I plan to do so when I get to my mid to late 50's.

[ian]

snip
I would have been better stocking up on VB.
I'm sticking to timber futures...

Regards
GregNah, I reckon hard metal, as in Lie Nielsen planes are a better option than timber futures.
You get to use them till you need to cash 'em in

[Sebastiaan56]

A grey haired friend of mine has a saying "Unfortunately some experience has to be bought" Ouch Greg, I have a few war stories as well.

[Fuzzie]

If youre close to retirement you should be considering moving at least some of your super into less volatile sectors such as fixed interest etc. I plan to do so when I get to my mid to late 50's.

The trouble with that plan is that the so called fixed interest sector got hammered pretty hard during the GFC as well. The prospect of Eurpoean soveriegn debt defaults means the banks that lent them money might fold as well. It was only hard money at bank interest that didn't disappear during the last GFC and the bank interest dropped to something very low. If you had fixed interest in some of the corporates it disappeared. If the banks had folded that money would have disappeared as well.

The stack of cards is pretty large. The debt position of California for instance is at least as bad as Greece. California occasionally has not been able to pay its public servants. The worst debt held by a country looks to be Japan, its debt ratio to GDP is double what Greece owes.

[kiwigeo]

The trouble with that plan is that the so called fixed interest sector got hammered pretty hard during the GFC as well. .

I said fixed interest _etc_...ie all sectors that exhibit less volatility than the stock market. I also indicated at least some investments should be moved into such sectors..not all.


The choice is basically between market sectors with a potentially high return but high risk or sectors with a lower risk but lower returns. The time frame also needs to be considered...ie how long until retirement and how long do you expect to have to depend on your super to fund your retirement.

Just as a matter of interest my SMSF (60% shares, 20% property, 20% FI etc) took a drop during the GFC but fully recovered and is very much in the black.




Cheers Martin

[cultana]

end on your super to fund your retirement.

Just as a matter of interest my SMSF (60% shares, 20% property, 20% FI etc) took a drop during the GFC but fully recovered and is very much in the black.


This is true in general re the SMSF approach. But many who are still employed in some industry/ normal managed fund have much just stuck in shares and hence suffer worse.

Unless one can have or run a SMSF or SM Retirement Fund you are at the mercy of the fund managers. The split you have is not that easy with the normal funds.
I moved to a self managed fund simply as all i ever got for the FA was 'sit and wait' and watched the value slowly vanish. After moving to a SM system it improved and like you it was spread over a range with a level of stability.

[Calm]

Most super funds allow you to nominate the risk you want to invest in. You can usually change that by making a phone call.

Some of my friends changed to cash (fixed interest) in their super funds about Mar 2008 and changed back to higher risk (shares) in June 2009 - their super funds when forward all the time - they never lost anything.

Why did they do it - because i told them that it was going to get worse and any interest is better than a loss.

I am not thinking now is a good time to be shoving all your super into shares either - i think 6 months of Term Deposits (cash investment) wont cost you anything.

You should only invest at the risk you are comfortable with - if you are only comfortable with Govt guaranteed bank interest then don't stick it all in Shares - even if your Financial Advisor says so.

Cheers

David

[wheelinround]

I have been following this out of interest being a receiver of the disability pension but having once been a subscriber to a self funded pension scheme.

I have watched all these schemes grow with not one iota of Government regulation as to those people who spruke and conjole people into being in them the government included.
Economists and financial advisers make squillions even if the market fails the companies still make their profits corp execs their bonuses. They constantly announce the good things well into the future of what they can do.

Not one has ever stood up and said we are about to loose big time and therefore are misleading the public and withholding information if they can see ahead for benefits then with all their years of experience why not the times of hardship ahead.

They should be held accountable.

[Calm]

............................

Not one has ever stood up and said we are about to loose big time and therefore are misleading the public and withholding information if they can see ahead for benefits then with all their years of experience why not the times of hardship ahead.

They should be held accountable.

One place of my employment (almost the last one) was convinced by Macquarie bank to move $1.1 Million from term deposit into a managed fund (Macquarie bank being the fund manager)

This was in August 2007 - by Feb 2008 they had turned the 1.1 Mill into $840,000 - not a batter of the eyelid, apology or anything they just said you have to ride out the lows.

I told them in Aug 2007, during their spiel on investment, that this was not a good time to move but was assured by the Macquarie people that shares were a solid investment then.

They should have been hung and quartered for their advice but as usual nothing happened.

What did the Auditor General say - what could he it was his advice in the first place that investments couldn't just be term deposits they had to be "as a prudent person" would invest.

extra - the "funny" bit was that another $800,000 would not be released early by the investor (was 12 months into a 24 month term) to add to the Macquarie account so it was still earning 8% during this time. - i left before it finished but think it was added to the Macquarie amount.

cheers

[jimbur]

Economists and financial advisers make squillions even if the market fails the companies still make their profits corp execs their bonuses. They constantly announce the good things well into the future of what they can do.



I have a relative who dealt in industrial law. He always said he loved boom and bust times but didn't make so much when things were chugging along nicely in the economy.:D
Cheers,
Jim

[wheelinround]

A while ago even the Queen asked "If all the Uni trained persons can spend so much time learning when we are to invest and tell us why can't they know when to withdraw our monies before the crashes"?

A wise woman that one.

Macquarie Bank its symbol stolen from the history of a Governor who wanted the best for people. Macquarie Bank's Moto is the name of that Logo's remains "The dump" which was tht which was punched out of the centre creating the hole which the economy falls through.

Sadly its Macbank's small investors who must be hurting most as usual.

[Sebastiaan56]

I am not thinking now is a good time to be shoving all your super into shares either - i think 6 months of Term Deposits (cash investment) wont cost you anything.

Interest rates are going up and the tip is we will have somewhere between 4-7 over the next 18 months. Unless Europe crashes and burns. That said there are a lot of oversold shares on the ASX at the moment. In the last big dip we picked up Comm Bank at $26.88 18 months later we doubled our money. There will be value buys as the market dips.


You should only invest at the risk you are comfortable with - if you are only comfortable with Govt guaranteed bank interest then don't stick it all in Shares - even if your Financial Advisor says so

I completely agree. Just be aware that in your SMSF you will need to document your strategy. There is a lot of research available on different investments. It is not a black art.


Economists and financial advisers make squillions even if the market fails the companies still make their profits corp execs their bonuses. They constantly announce the good things well into the future of what they can do.

And the poor suckers who pay the most fees are those stuck in the retail funds. This is where the fees are the highest. Managing your SMSF requires you educate yourself in how the financial world works and the rules of the game are not always fair and transparent. If you pay someone to do it they will charge you. But markets go up and down. Its what they do. We have had an extended period of up, up, up. It was never going to last. Now its time for down, down, down and then cycle, cycle, cycle till some basic economic fundamental changes.


Not one has ever stood up and said we are about to loose big time and therefore are misleading the public and withholding information if they can see ahead for benefits then with all their years of experience why not the times of hardship ahead.In fact they do. They just dont talk about it on the TV news. You need to get into other areas of the financial press and study economics. eg we are in an increasing interest rate phase. This offers opportunities in certain kinds of stocks, and hence some buying opportunities. The commodity boom is levelling as capacity worldwide is increased, this will affect other stocks. When you know what the next part of the cycle will be you will be able to look for the opportunities it presents.


They should be held accountable

If they have ripped you off. Otherwise the risk is yours. Its tough, I agree but that is the way it is. As the saying goes "If you cant run with the big dogs stay on the porch" Education is really the key.

[wheelinround]

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset;"> Not one has ever stood up and said we are about to loose big time and therefore are misleading the public and withholding information if they can see ahead for benefits then with all their years of experience why not the times of hardship ahead. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
In fact they do. They just dont talk about it on the TV news. You need to get into other areas of the financial press and study economics. eg we are in an increasing interest rate phase. This offers opportunities in certain kinds of stocks, and hence some buying opportunities. The commodity boom is levelling as capacity worldwide is increased, this will affect other stocks. When you know what the next part of the cycle will be you will be able to look for the opportunities it presents.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset;"> They should be held accountable </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
If they have ripped you off. Otherwise the risk is yours. Its tough, I agree but that is the way it is. As the saying goes "If you cant run with the big dogs stay on the porch" Education is really the key.

Sorry Sab disagree these people are educated you pay them to manage your money, invest and move it with minimal risk (their words often) yet when it looses its your fault for not being educated enough. Crap thats what your paying them for other wise go bet on a horse at least you know its going to go crap at some stage during the day, but from its mess wonderful things grow not just the horses feed.

[Frank&Earnest]

Has anybody considered the solution of a national superannuation scheme? It might be a bit too new an idea for Australia though, they were introduced in Europe only about 120 years ago. Pity that it would cost a lot, paying the dole for all those thousands of then unemployed middlemen. They would have to be re-employed as public servants.

Something I really do not understand: why are politicians fair game but one can not say here that some bureaucrats did not do their job properly?

[Sebastiaan56]

Sorry Sab disagree these people are educated you pay them to manage your money, invest and move it with minimal risk (their words often) yet when it looses its your fault for not being educated enough. Crap thats what your paying them for other wise go bet on a horse at least you know its going to go crap at some stage during the day, but from its mess wonderful things grow not just the horses feed.

"Every money investment can go crap at some stage", repeat, "EVERY MONEY INVESTMENT CAN GO CRAP AT SOME STAGE", etc, etc, etc ad nauseum. That is why you always sign a waiver, whether you know it or not you always sign a waiver. Look for words such as "past performance does not indicate future returns" or "independent advice is recommended for all investments" or suchlike. The cant be an iron clad "you will not lose your money" guarantee without a zero or negative rate of return. Investment involves risk. You bank account will make minimal interest because it is guaranteed by the Govt, but apart from that... stuff happens, thats life. Banks go broke too... thats life.

Advisors make mistakes. When you turn wood you know there is a risk of slipping and ruining the wood, your equipment or your flesh. Its a risk you take and you wouldnt dream of trying risky stuff without checking it out with someone who you knew to be a competent turner. The difference with money is that people do take on risks without understanding them. And the investment world is more like a shark pool than a woodturners club. Thats just how it is. So "Every money investment can go crap at some stage". "If you cant run with the big dogs, stay on the porch"

[Fuzzie]

Other points to consider as to how all this has happened and why we can't go back to the good old days when everything was made at home are to do with life expectancy and world population.

In fact when were the good old days when everything was self contained? If you go back to the 1850's and the start of the industrial age the male life expectancy was something like 38 years of age, world population about 1300 million. By the 1950's the world population was starting to rocket up from 2500 million and life expectancy was 66. Today the population is around 6500 million and life expectancy around 75.

File:World-Population-1800-2100.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World-Population-1800-2100.png)

Life Expectancy by Age, 1850–2004 — Infoplease.com (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html)

[wheelinround]

"Every money investment can go crap at some stage", repeat, "EVERY MONEY INVESTMENT CAN GO CRAP AT SOME STAGE", etc, etc, etc ad nauseum. That is why you always sign a waiver, whether you know it or not you always sign a waiver. Look for words such as "past performance does not indicate future returns" or "independent advice is recommended for all investments" or suchlike. The cant be an iron clad "you will not lose your money" guarantee without a zero or negative rate of return. Investment involves risk. You bank account will make minimal interest because it is guaranteed by the Govt, but apart from that... stuff happens, thats life. Banks go broke too... thats life.

Advisors make mistakes. When you turn wood you know there is a risk of slipping and ruining the wood, your equipment or your flesh. Its a risk you take and you wouldnt dream of trying risky stuff without checking it out with someone who you knew to be a competent turner. The difference with money is that people do take on risks without understanding them. And the investment world is more like a shark pool than a woodturners club. Thats just how it is. So "Every money investment can go crap at some stage". "If you cant run with the big dogs, stay on the porch"

Yep thats all so true and something my father taught me when I was about 7 years old.
Now if we have known and learnt the lessons well since the crash of the Great Depression would you agree and by reading what you have stated there should be less risk.
Well it doesn't happen because White Collar crooks don't get caught and we let them use such things as Waiver's be their get out of jail card.

As I said the people we hand our hard earned $$$ to are supposed to be the trained ones at what point do you not see they have to be held accountable, same as a mechanic who says your car is in tip top condition, you drive it away to find it has no breaks. Here we have laws to bring him to court. We see tradies being brought before the courts on lesser matters and fined, loss of licence etc.

So your saying all these people have to accept that bad things happen , its part of life get over it you chose that tradie.:roll:

[wheelinround]

Other points to consider as to how all this has happened and why we can't go back to the good old days when everything was made at home are to do with life expectancy and world population.

In fact when were the good old days when everything was self contained? If you go back to the 1850's and the start of the industrial age the male life expectancy was something like 38 years of age, world population about 1300 million. By the 1950's the world population was starting to rocket up from 2500 million and life expectancy was 66. Today the population is around 6500 million and life expectancy around 75.

File:World-Population-1800-2100.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World-Population-1800-2100.png)

Life Expectancy by Age, 1850–2004 — Infoplease.com (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html)


WoW and on top of that we have more Politicians we have to keep and more government employee's who retire at younger ages on full pensions which are paid for by consumers which use the companies such as Telstra where the government invest to help pay for these pensions who might just go down the gurgler.

:rolleyes: Hum Paul Keating Bob Hawk mid to late 1980's crash, high interest, loss of many people pensions.:roll: The big move to bring in mandatory self funded pensions. Government pensions were cut back as to many were sitting back enjoying a weeks wage for doing nothing.

[hughie]

'Rant on'
Well at the end of the day 'the people' deserve the Govt they get.This concept of changing Govt cos they have been in too long needs to be looked at. We should only change if they are stuffing up.

But the problem is more fundamental than that. We in the western world have been choosing our leaders for at least the last 150years by a criteria that has got us where we are today.

There was a time when we chose leaders by their integrity and content of character. But we moved away from this to using Charisma as a yard stick. They have foisted upon us the locked down two party system.That prevents good men, if they have any, from doing whats right at the time and what best for the country.
'rant off'