Hiya. Female seeking some advice.

[Okeroa]

Hi All. I have a 46 yr old double brick house in Perth. There are about half a dozen cracks in the internal walls.

Firstly I got an architect (from Archicentre) to provide me with a general report on the condition of the house before I purchased.

In general the report was pretty clean however the architect advised that the cracking was likely due to the water run off from the roof just pouring on to the land. No trenches, no drains, no run off to any drains that would go to stormwater.

So I bought the property as the architect advised that what would be needed would be pipes to be run from the downpipes to a sump which we would need to put on the property and then run this to the council stormwater drains. He estimated the cost would be roughly $6 to $8K. However to be completely sure his advice was to get a report from a structural engineer.

I purchased the house. I then got a structural engineer to write me a report. His advice was that there was movement due to the water runoff and we could remedy this by doing a series of things. The first one being to do as the architect had previously advised. $8000 later and without doing step 3 & 4 I called a plasterer who came highly recommended from a contact. The plaster (with 50 years experience) came to the house and advised that the cracks were very minimal and that they were caused by something else which fell into two areas. What the plasterer told me seemed very logical. However after paying for a architects report and an engineers report it would appear that this is possibly money down the drain. Or it would appear that years of experience (the plasterer) vs little experience but qualified 'experts' come up with two very different reasons.

Who does one believe or listen to? Advice that is well paid for or advice that was free?

Just thought I would share this with you and whilst I don't have a lot of experience in these matters my father who resides overseas (is now 85) was not tertiary qualified however as a draftsperson in earlier years and then a Project Manager in later years for building projects worth up to $2Mill it seems to me that often we need to value experience over 'written reports' by 'experts' or so it seemed from the advice that I have received from the plaster.

Your comments would be appreciated. :2tsup:

Firstly good morning and thank you everyone for all this terrific advice.

I have attached photos of cracking for the following reasons:

I had already investigated the installation of tanks. I have a large roof area which the 'rainwater tank specialist' staff advised that I would need lots of tanks (slimline only) due to space around the home which would probably only catch some of the water and there would still be a lot of overflow. Two quotes were received and it was still perceived that the drains and pipes would still need to be installed. As the pipework was $8000K and that tanks quote for the property was $13000 all up I took the cheaper option knowing that I can install water tanks at a later date as opposed to do water tanks first and still have to get these drains/pipes installed underground and pay for a sump so that water can go to stormwater. I have only recently had this done.

To then have a plasterer with years of experience say to me that did I notice the cracks in the walls are all common to being above light switches. And what he believes has happened is that the conduit and installation of conduit has weakened these specific areas. And considering that these are the only places where there are cracks it seemed to me to be a logical response.

There is one exception and that is there is a slight crack in the ceiling and also a little sagging which the plasterer advises that once he has a look in the ceiling it may well have something (in this particular area only) to do with the covering of the beam in a old coconut husk type stuff having been worn away. Now he can recover this with a fibreglass type mesh stuff which he showed me.

I guess what I find intriguing is that the architects original report also advised that there was perhaps this sagging due to a hot water tank in the roof above the frame with the largest crack. And he said more likely it is full of water and it is too heavy etc. So after the purchase of the house my partner went up to the roof cavity and found that the tank was empty. We understand that the architect probably poked his head up the manhole and shone a torch and saw the tank and it went into report.

However for a plasterer to come along not be concerned about getting the job, tell me what he thinks may be causing the cracks, I tell him about my two reports, he then reads them and says whatever you do do not continue along this written advice as you will spend a lot of money and not necessarily so. I was quite shocked. He said that I might be better off getting another independent person to perhaps advise both sets of advice and then choose from there. But this man has been in the game for a very long time and he freely showed me what the cracks had very much in common. He also thought the house was very structurally sound and that it wasn't right to spend $8000 when perhaps the cracks have been caused by something else.

And yes my house is on sand and yes after 46 yrs it has very little cracking. We just wanted to make sure that we did the right thing structurally for future owners and now feel perhaps a little fleeced. Or it does make one wish to question more I guess.

Your thoughts?

[weisyboy]

id trust an experianced tradesman long before il listen to an educated idiot.

[Kooyman]

hey im new to the forum but yes go all the way with experience those engineers and that would be just out of uni and only a few years experience n its not really the area of work so go wih the tradesman

[Dengue]

I thought Perth was largely sandy, and that you would not have much trouble with water settling. That was the case when we lived in Ardross bak in the 1970s.

I would listen to a local tradesman first, then if his less expensive suggestions did not work, then go with the architect's recommendation

[Scribbly Gum]

If there is no provision for storm and rainwater runoff, you are going to get problems of one kind or another.
Seems a shame that rainwater has no tanks to go to for re-use. Over here there are government subsidies to install rain tanks, perhaps it is the same in the west?
At the very least, installing rain tanks away from the house takes away the roof runoff, sends the tank overflow onwards and keeps the house and its foundations dry.
Worth a thought. I would do something about your water runoff though and my solution would be tanks followed by sending the tank overflow on its way into stormwater drains if they are available.
Cheers
SG

[Claw Hama]

I have had good and bad with both, some plasterers can't even patch a crack let alone know what caused it and the same goes for Architects, as said above, many are educated idiots with no practical experience, theory is just that, a theory. Theory with practical experience is the goods if you can find it.

Oh and welcome to the forum.:U

[artme]

G'day Okeroa and welcome aboard.!!:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

Bit of a quandry you have there.Scribbly's idea of rainwater tanks is a good one as you can still send any excess overflow to the council stormwater system.

As for the solutions offered by the architect and the engineer you need to rememeber that they are offering "top- end solutions" - probably in order to protect themselves from future court action if things go wrong.

[justinmcf]

as a carpenter, i could probably work out what is happening. if i could not work it out. my first call would be a licensed builder. luckily i know a few.
they deal with building problems on a daily basis and they are the people who actually rectify the problem.
an architect can point his finger and say this and that is the problem, but they never get their hands dirty. so i would take their advice with a pinch of salt.

not in a million years would i want advice from an architect, or a plasterer for that matter.
but a good engineer is priceless.
as was stated before, as long as the engineer is not a snotty nosed kid still wearing nappies, then their advice is usually pretty good.

next time call a builder, then if the builder recommends talking to an engineer, do so.

regards, justin.

[RedShirtGuy]

I'd go the experienced engineer (with local knowledge) route if possible too but it can be tough when there's legal requirements that need some doofus with a bit of paper and a few letters after their name to sign off on something. (No offence to the non-doofuses with bits of paper and the letters :wink:)

It can be really tricky. Either way it's possible to get the wrong information and get ripped off.

I was going to buy a block of land a few years ago and asked the estate agent if it was possible to build a house on it and get utilities hooked up to it and he said "yeh no worries". Something didn't feel right so I went to council and it had an Aboriginal Heritage protection on it (if I dug up an artifact work had to stop), was in a flood zone, and I couldn't cut down trees to make room for a bloody tent. Basically the complete opposite of what I'd been told. So sometimes when someone has money at stake, they'll tell you any old thing just to get you to buy or spend on it.

[beer is good]

Hu Okerora..
I owned an old house in Rivervale for about 22 years until moving to Cannington. I have never heard of drainage being a problem in WA. With our sandy soil drainage is not usually a drama unless your house is in an area with clay, as in Lesmurdie or Kalamunda where the clay expands in winter with the rain then contracts in summer as it dries out.

My old place had a few cracks in the plaster but they didn't go right through the bricks. I would get some more opinions before shelling out more money.

[Christos]

Firstly welcome to the forum.

Some very interesting advise. I find it very hard to comment on this as when you think about something then look at why this is the case I am sure that you will find another reason.

I am sorry but as you have already spent the money and completed the job it is too late to go back. I understand your logic for putting in the rainwater tanks at a later stage. Would you need all of them to go in at the same time? It there other options to the standard rainwater tanks? Can you complete this your self?

[fly2hi]

True what you say Beer...sand doesn't hold water..clay does. My first thoughts would be to remove some of the plaster and see if the cracks go right through the wall. Without doing that you don't really know what you're dealing with.

[pjt]

A bit more info would be good...
Type of plaster e.g. gyprock on timber stud walls or solid plaster on a brick/block wall
If lets say it's gyprock on a timber stud wall.... it would be unusual for any conduit/wiring to be in the plaster, the wiring is usually in the cavity that is provided by the timber studs and well clear of the plaster, the wiring will come thru a hole in the plaster and or stud if the light switch is archatrave mounted but wouldn't cause a crack like you have.

If it is a solid type masonary wall, (block/brick) it is likely that wiring may well have been chased into the wall before the plastering was done, it is also likely that if sparky was there as the block/bricks are layed that wiring will be in conduit within the wall itself and not chased into the surface of the block/bricks and therefore less likley to be the cause of your cracking....if wiring was chased (groove cut into blocks for wiring to run) then plastered over and was the cause of cracking it is likely that the crack will follow the chased out groove and will be a relatively straight line...this is probly what your plasterer bloke is thinking.

The thing that has me :question: is the cracks are somewhat jagged, originate from the corner of what I am assuming is the corner of the door opening and goes across the cornice, also it looks like the cornice is cracking at the wall cornice junction, without further info or looking it has me thinking movement of some sort, it may be rain related ground movement :? or some other cause and if so I be thinking of getting a few more opinions...a good builder...a good civil engineer

How many cracks are there? Do they all originate from the corner of the door opening? Is it just above one door and the pics r from either side of the door?
Are you on a solid concrete raft slab? at ground level or Bored piers and posts?


Welcome to the forum btw

Peter

[Claw Hama]

As pjt said, the cracks through the corner and cornice look more like ground movement to me.
Any new extensions or building works happed lately? Smimming pools etc.

[Dengue]

If it is a sand base, then there should not be any ground movement.

Get the plaster opened around one of the cracks and see it there is any cracking in the bricks underneath. If there is, then you need to get a Civil Engineer on site to look at it, preferably a local one who does footings and foundations for a living in your area.

Any good professional Architect should not be advising on ground movements and wall cracking - that is not their area of expertise, and he would be putting his professional indemnity at risk.

If there was ground movement in a double brick house, then the cracks would be obvious in the external walls as well

[Okeroa]

After reading all the posts and rereading the reports from the architect and engineer and reading the fully itemised quote from the plasterer I am going to see if I can find a experienced builder to advise.

In reply to pjt - solid plaster on brick wall. It looks to me like the sparky groove cut into the blocks and then it was plastered over.

I have gone round the house and counted the cracks. Either side of the light switches are cracks. Total cracks running up from light switches are five presenting cracks on both sides of wall exactly where conduit would be running up wall from wood architraving to ceiling.

Two other cracks are a. below a window and another is where I have taken an image which shows the crack seems to be popping out as opposed to crack line. And the popping out crack is also on other side of light switch however as stated earlier it was thought by architect to have a full water tank in exactly same spot in roof space making load to heavy however tank is empty.

The engineer says the the house in is a clay area. The report also says the ground floor of the house is elevated by 5-6 courses (500mm approx) above the ground level. This is a typical construction of the Guildford area.

The plasterer advised that where there is some the cracking in the cornice (two) in the same region of the popping out in the family room is possibly due to a need to jack up ceiling & strutt underside hard up on to timber and restrap inside of ceiling with fiberglass strands.

The engineer advised to a. cut down two trees which are too close to house and ground out stumps - done and paid for.
b. Get all downpipes to be attached to pipes to run into a pit to be installed. - $8000 done and paid for. Trenches dug up all over yard for pipes, new pit installed and connection then made to newly installed storm water drains by council - just two months before.
c. Provide waterproof membrane around the building sloped away from the house into catch drains. The drains will be be near the footing, a provision of a sub-soil drain 1.2m deep and at 1.2-1.5m away from the house perimeter is also suggested. - Not done as yet.

What I am currently thinking is this. Do not complete c. as advised by engineer. Get plastering work done and have inside ceilings restrapped. Get builder (if I can find one in Perth with the time) to advise if this is all a good course of action.

I guess I am prepared to chance not doing c. as I guess the cracks aren't very bad or deep considering 46 years and trees have been dug out and also water run-off will now go from downpipes to stormwater with the idea of a few tanks to be installed at later stage.

Your thoughts :U

[Dengue]

I would still open a couple of the cracks to see if the bricks behind are cracked too.

Draw a line across each of the cracks, mark a point on either side of the crack, and measure the distance accurately between the points. Keep a weekly record over the next 12 months to see if there is any movement of the cracks, and have someone sign each reading as it is taken to verify the reading was done at that time. That will show up in summer and in winter if there is movement of the ground.

If there are significant changes, take the results back to the Engineer. It will show that his $8,000 advice did not work.

Then you can make a claim for recovery of costs incurred in following his advice.

[pjt]

Yep, I would have a look at what is going on behind/under the plaster as well, if u can, have a close look at the crack itself, Is it a crack that if brought together would just be a fine line? (just like the china plate you have just dropped then bring the 2 pieces back together and its nearly an invisible line)... indicates a recent occourance.

Are the edges of the crack a little bit rounded? little bits of the inside of the face of the brick break off each time the gap closes (there has to ground movement sufficient to cause the 2 crack faces to come back together with enough force) and moreso especially if one side has dropped which only has to be 1mm...indicates been happening a while.

Is there little bits collecting down the bottom of the crack which then start to act like a wedge which then wont allow the crack to come back together....a bit longer again.

Is it just a mass of cracks with little bits everywhere:oo::oo::oo:...run for the hillls:o nah shouldnt be that bad:):U

This cracking may have been going on for the life of the house and the plaster just patched up every so often (just before the house is sold):oo: it does sound like movement issues, solid masonary tends not to be as flexable as timber so when applied forces are greater than the masonary can withstand it cracks rather than bending, masonary will bend a tiny bit but only a beesdick then crack, so what this means is that being on a reactive soil (clay) the soil swells and heaves and moves as it absorbs/looses water (some soils highly reactive and can move 100mm), ideal is to have a constant soil moisture content under and surrounding the house, this reduces movement and consequently the sort of probs u r having, the advice u have recieved is all aimed at maintaining a constant moisure content in your soil.

Wether u do C, I cant say, but get a few more opinions, can't hurt, do a google type in house cracks or anything similiar something will come up, it's the net......:;

The restrapping of ceiling is probly an age of the house thing, not helped by movement tho, hard to say without getting up there and having a look.

Hope it all works out.

Pete