Compact 4WDs, which one?

[JDub]

Hey all,

Im looking to purchase a new car and wanted a 4WD. Basically I need something that will cart around my fairly big dog, and a kid or two in the not to distant future. And that is capable of launching/towing a small boat etc.

My Budget is around $35k and I want something that is not going to cost me a fortune to run.

I was thinking of an Nissan X-trail or a Mazda Tribute?

Suggestions? Thoughts?

I was thinking of getting one about 1-2 years old to save the 10k you lose as soon as you drive it off the lot.

Cheers

[Johnno]

SWMBO has a Subaru Liberty Wagon. Back when I was able to travel we towed a small caravan all around Southern Oz - No problems. Year before last a lady drove through a giveway sign and I T-boned her. Me, wife & 2 dogs in car. $23,000 damage including a rebuilt engine ($500 short of a write-off). No damage to any occupants and the doors still opened normally.
Love that Suby

Johnno

[Frenchie]

I have a Tribute and for the things you listed it would handle with ease.

It is a bit thirsty though. Around town (very short runs) I average around 18L/100 k's, but, when travelling I can achieve around 10L/100 k's fully laden.

Very punchy engine and gets along very nicely.

Good Luck
Frenchie

[HappyHammer]

For $35K you could get a good second hand Pajero (full size). I pull my boat with it no problem and SWMBO finds it easy to drive. We test drove Landcruiser (My preference), Patrol and Pajero and she said the PAjero drove more like a car, probably because of the moncoque chassis. Have had it two years and very happy with it. Still look longingly at the Patrol and 'cruiser though.

HH.

[Wood Borer]

I just bought my third Subaru (second Forester) an XS brand new for the price you mentioned. I have taken my previous one in heaps of good places, outback QLD, outback SA, outback NSW and heaps of bush tracks in Vic.

I am very happy with them, a bit more ground clearance would be nice but they are reliable and tough. I always give cars a hard life and mine have looked after me far better than Fords or Holdens.

- Wood Borer

[bitingmidge]

Subaru's are a great all-rounder, and I nearly bought one last year when I replaced my Suzuki Sierra after 300,000k.

If you are only looking for a wagon which is fine in most conditions, go for it.

Don't buy a big 4WD just because it is big....

If you want a "proper" 4WD that is quite economical round town and off-road (10ltrs/100k) I don't think you can go past a Grand Vitara....
Low range, V6 wagon good ground clearance, relatively small and very nimble off road and towing.

I actually have a "shorty" 2 door version with a twin cam 2litre and it's fabulous in the rough stuff, towing and round town...on the highway it's comfortable enough, but no Subaru (that's why I have a beemer too! :D ).

You should get one brand new with all the tricks, 3year warranty, central locking, power windows and everything and still have $5k change.

Cheers,

P :D :D

[HappyHammer]

If you want a "proper" 4WD.....I don't think you can go past a Grand Vitara....
:D :D :D :D :D

[bitingmidge]

:D :D :D :D :D
Your place or mine Hammer??

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Cheers,
P (former hairdresser)

[HappyHammer]

OK never seen one that looks like that, but I wouldn't put too much on that roof rack!!:D

HH.

[bitingmidge]

OK never seen one that looks like that, but I wouldn't put too much on that roof rack!!:D

HH.

The roof rack is only for bringing home bits of 'Cruisers left on the tracks.

Put a few "S" bends in the original sierra gutters stopping quickly(well as quickly as possible with 3" drum brakes) with a full load of timber...dont' think the Vitara is up for much more than 80kg!!

:D P

[davo453]

I loved the Forrester when I test drove one, the down side was that it will only tow 1400kg (braked) which is a bit limiting, it doesn't have to be much of boat to go over that. But then the liberty is only 1300kg

The grand Vitara is 1850kg which is a bit more respectable (source www.discountnewcars.com.au). when you look at the towing capacity of vehicles it really sorts the men from the boys, few match the landcruisers 3500kg

Dave

[DanP]

If you buy a toy 4X4 don't expect it to be much use off road. The way they are designed, as soon as the wheels start to slip they turn into a two wheel drive anyway.

Dan

[E. maculata]

Unless you are going into virgin country, go the forester. My job takes me through all sorts of country, have had over the last 7 yrs all sorts of work vehicles (4x4's) from cruiser traybacks to V6 fourunners, patrols, pajero's, prado etc etc. When I took this position Boss gave me a "poxy pretend 4wd" forester, I whined winged and complained, a week later I wanted to buy one for the family, 215mm clearance is a bit low, but still more than most of the others, including some "real" 4wds(check your control arms etc guys). Do I use it in anger? you better believe it only rocks,washouts and stumps slow me down, in which case you learn new techniques. 6 weeks ago I took my new white forester down a goat track on private bush country looking at potential harvest yields, the sook behind me was whinging about his metallic diesel turbo patrol with the works getting scratched, spent 2 hours driving all over through overgrowth, and undergrowth, whilst the patrol had issues with side clearance between trees. Then outcornered a flying commodore on the way home. Don't let looks fool you just because subaru elected to keep the styling low and not mount the cab way up high, like some pretenders. Its horses for courses.
Next car another subaru forester.

[bitingmidge]

Unless you are going into virgin country, go the forester...., 215mm clearance is a bit low, but still more than most of the others, including some "real" 4wds(check your control arms etc guys). Do I use it in anger? you better believe it only rocks,washouts and stumps slow me down, in which case you learn new techniques.

How right you are Bruce! In the late 70's when the Birdsville track was a "bit" rough, a good friend did the journey in company with a couple of then brand new Range Rovers, a couple of troopies and a Nissan. He was in his one year old Peugeot 504, and was the only one on that trip who didn't get bogged.

4WD for me is mostly used in the boggy bits at the edge of the beach, towing others through same, and pulling "real" 4wd's out of ditches that they could have gone round! Retreiving a ton of boat in low range on a slippery boat ramp or boggy beach is useful.

Yep, I do go straight into the scrub occasionally in the course of my work too, and yep the bog standard Zook on street tyres seems to always find a way home.

At the end of the day, I do what I need to do for almost $20 grand less than the Sub would have cost and that's all that drove my decision...."proper" 4wd's just don't add up!

:D :D
Cheers,
P (Ducking!)

[DanP]

You'd be amazed at what a 'real' 4WD will do in the hands of a real 4WD'er. People who get stuck when driving them are taking them into places that are beyond THEIR driving ability to negotiate, OR, where the thing shouldn't be going in the first place.

Dan

PS. I think the Suby is a great car.

[E. maculata]

Agreed Dan, a decent 4wd being used to its' potential by a skilled operator in its natural habitat is a joy to behold, also very rare for most (even me these days). Actually Dan you sound like an off-road technique instructor I know.

[Christopha]

I have a Nissan Navara twin cab turbo diesel, I love it, it tows my reasonably heavy boat like a dream and also my tool trailer during the week. Economy is excellent, comfort is good, ride is fine, leg room in the rear is ordinary. My parents have a Suby Forester which has just returned on Sunday from 'doing' the Eastern half of the continent towing a grossly overloaded caravan. Last year it did the western half.... it has not missed a beat and is in perfect order. Great little car, I emphasise "Little!", not much chop if your tinlids are any bigger than dwarves. We have a couple of old Subys as well which tear around the sand hills, tow sailing dinghies and get generally abused by sons, they, the cars, have proved bloody hard to kill. SWMBO is a bit keen on quitting her Calais because the local Holden dealers have had a major lend of us and she likes the look of the X-trail, it has had good writeups and seems to be a good road car if you want 95% on road and 5% off.... I have also had a good close look at the Grand Vitara and it is a very nice piece of gear and if need be, a serious off roader. Give it some better rubber, OME shocks and she would be hard to stop while still being a very nice day to day road car.

[Cliff Rogers]

Hey Jdub, I've got a good(?) 1960 series 2a Landrover you can have for $1500
if you are prepared to come to FNQ to get it. :D
It's got a timber tray back & 4 new tyres. (they are worth $600 alone)

It's been supersceeded by an 18HP low profile 4WD Kubota Diesel Tractor. :eek:
The tractor doesn't go quiet as fast as the Landrover but it goes a whole lot
more places & a whole lot further.

[TassieKiwi]

Kluger forever! Leather essential for off-road work, old boy. Tally ho!

[Ivan in Oz]

Mum's got a Mitsubishi Delica
2.8 Turbo
Seats 7 WITH all their luggage

Goes anywhere a Std Nissan Patrol goes.

Ivan in Oz

[himzol]

Jdub,

Of the two you have mentioned I would go for the X-trail. There are people with both of these in my office and the one with the Honda says tha power just disapears when she has to tow anything.

If you are still looking around then the subarus a great, the forester in particular is a good vehicle, but it depends on how heavy your boat is.

What ever you buy make sure you get some after market springs and shockers all round, the stuff they fit at the factory is great for city driving or getting over the pine bark in the front yard. However when you hook up a boat to it or take it onto some serious dirt it just doesn't perform.

If you do get a "real" 4WD do a driving course, I've seen many people that have got them selfs in all sort of bother by trying to drive one of these as they would a "normal" family sedan. We're talking roll-overs, bogged and driving into ditches.

BTW before anybody asks, no I am not an instructor, I just do a lot of K's in my 4runner and have yet to get bogged, have never gotten close to rolling it and apart from getting hit by a very angry Emu I've never had an accident in this vehicle (touch wood).

Himzo.

[HappyHammer]

What did you do to the Emu to make him hit you Himzol?

[himzol]

It was down in one of the pine plantations near Mt Gambier, All I did was drive around the corner and I had this thing running straight at me wit it's feathers and wings all ruffled. I suspect it had some young ones in the scrub and was trying to protect them, luckely I wasn't going too fast and was able to stop, he gave the car a few kicks and went on his way.

The guy that was in the car with me at the time tells the story much better than I do, I was there and every time he tells it, I P**s my self laughing.

[Wood Borer]

Some of my colleagues in Pommy Land refer to us in Australia as convicts. Naturally we refer to them as gentlemen and not low life slimey Pommy B@%&ards.

They unkindly doctored up a photo of my old Subaru when SWMBO and myself were clagged up with mud for 2 days near Arrabury - between Haddon's corner and the Dig Tree in QLD. This was a couple of years ago.

Many of you will know when it gets a bit damp up there the mud sticks badly to anything (except the flies). To clear the mud you have to remove each wheel and dig the mud out.

When we got down to 50m between clearing out the mud, we stopped and waited for 2 days for the road to dry out a bit. Couldn't pitch a tent there because of the gibbers.

- Wood Borer

[HappyHammer]

Gibbers?

Question from a pommy gentleman...:D

HH.

[Wood Borer]

Happy,

Gibbers are gibber stones which are found in the outback especially in Sturt's Stony desert where I was at the time. They go for miles and miles and....

- Wood Borer

[HappyHammer]

Thanks.....BTW I bet a "proper" 4WD wouldn't have got stuck there:D

Ooohh, I'm gonna regret that....

HH.

[Wood Borer]

Happy,

I wasn't bogged. The mud sticks to everything in those conditions including your boots, if you take 3 steps you are 3 inches taller because of the mud.

What happens is the mud sticks to the tyres and the mudguards and keeps building up until the two meet and then you stop. It sticks to the sidewalls of the tyres and the mudguards too.

Any vehicle with mudguards comes to a halt, the more mudguard clearance, the longer it takes to clag up and the longer it takes to remedy.

Do yourself a favour and visit the area to see it first hand - after you have mastered your plane. Some good timber up there too (not very many trees) but the timber is hard so you would need to sharpen your honing skills. :D

- Wood Borer

[HappyHammer]

Just trying to get a rise out of you borer:D

HH.

[Ivan in Oz]

Found the Forum:-
http://morini.com.au/phpBB2/

They're as NUTTY as you lot.
They just get 'muddy'.....and I MEAN Muddy!!

where you get [wood] DUSTY.

Ivan in Oz

[Iain]

I drive a cruiser mainly because most weekends I am towing two bloody great big thoroughbreds, total weight with float close on 3 tonnes, I drove down from Kinglake to Yarra Glen with no trailer brakes and it performed OK (who forgot to put the bloody plug in?).
This run is extremely steep and has some tight turns and can be quite acharacter building experience.
I drive this setup because I know what it can and cannot do.
My question is, why do you need a 4WD? Can't a medium size 2WD perform the same task for what you want without the excessive fuel bill and additional maintainance costs?

[bitingmidge]

Gibbers?

Question from a pommy gentleman...:D

HH.
A vital ingredient if ever you find yourself in need of cooking a galah (a pink and grey member of the parrrot species which can be quite prolific in areas where the mud fills the guards and stops the car).

The old recipe involves finding two round river gibbers and putting them in a pot of boiling water with the galah. Boil until the gibbers go soft, then discard the galah and eat the gibbers.

True,

P :cool:

[JDub]

Firstly Thanks for the replies everyone,



My choice now is as clear as the mud I will drive it in:D


My question is, why do you need a 4WD? Can't a medium size 2WD perform the same task for what you want without the excessive fuel bill and additional maintainance costs?Basically we need something to cart a big dog and a couple of kids around in, SWMBO ( and me to be honest) dont really like the look of station wagons or even the Subies so that rules that out.

That in addition to the flexibility a 4WD provides is why a 2WD is not an option. I will be launching boats on boatramps that are mainly sand and maybe do some light off roading but the room in the back is the main issue for us.

After a lot of research I have decided to buy something about 2 years old, I dont want a new car (lose 10-12k straight away).

narrowed in down to either an Xtrail or a Pajero (or Prado if I can find one cheap enough). I need to decide whether the extra running costs etc is worth the extra power and room if I go for the larger options.

I think 90% of the time an Xtrail will be all we need but what about the other 10%? What if I want to tow a my old mans caravan or something? Is it worth the extra cost for those one off times?


Oh and another question... Manual or Auto? LOL, The more I research the more confused I get as to what I want.:o

[himzol]

is worth the extra power and room if I go for the larger options.

my answer to this is Yes! for the very reasons you have stated. That is the towing of your boat, especially when trying to retieve it on a sandy beach.

As for Manual or Auto, this is a personal thing.
Me I like the auto simply because it's easier, though I do have a secondary battery fitted in mine for Mr justin Case.

[vsquizz]

I have a 99 Forrester. Hooked the boat on in Cairns and turned up in Perth 4 1/2 days and 5600 ks later with 27 mpg average for the trip, loaded to the gunwhales:) . Its got 80'000 on the clock and is an oustanding vehicle. (Modern cars are just so nice...no lovable character like Cliff's Landy)

We looked at updating as the kids get bigger and the X-Trail is top of the list. However, whilst it looks a lot bigger than the suby, in practical terms the difference is not huge. Fuel economy has got to be a major factor with the current prices. My folks have just done the run down to Perth from up north $1.25/litre in many places for diesel and the old Patrol is not the most economical on the road.

Stay well away from Prado's with the Auto box. All smiles when working but if the auto box has done some towing well:eek: .

We will have a look at the Klueger. Had a sales guy here awhile back who was very happy with the Tribute. One of my brothers bought a late model secondhand turbo diesel Pajero, very happy and lots economical. Other brother has late model 2nd H Cruiser but Toyota spares are crap outside of Perth ("it has to come from Melbourne Sir...and that will cost 7 guzillion").

We keep looking but at the end of the day we look at the Forrester and its a case of "Why Bother"

Cheers

BTW Cliff: I have noticed that Kubota have installed the same air conditioning system as the Land Rover:)

[HappyHammer]

Get a Pajero loads of room in the back as seats 6&7 are under the floor.

If you don't get the extra room it will gnaw at you that you compromised even if it's only a few times a year, also removes doubt on those boat ramps.

Mines an auto and I'm happy with it for average off road and on, also tows effortlessly.

HH.

[davo453]

I've owned one or two vehicles over the years (last count 32) some new some second hand, you are quite right about immediate depreciation, useful if you can claim a tax deduction , harder to take if it's purely private.

Buying a vehicle is always a compromise, they simply don't make the perfect vehicle for every requirement (is why I currently have 3 I suppose + the wife's). Large and copy cat smaller 4wd's by their design have limited load space, this is to reduce the departure angle whilst seating 4+ in comfort, the likes of the Subaru Liberty are "soft roaders" and don't worry so much about departure angles and the like. Most people start out saying I will be using it off road, but after only a few experiences it never goes off road, on that basis you might as well hire or borrow one for those odd occasions

The most rugged vehicle I've owned was a 95 Landrover Defender 110 (bought in 98) it kept it's value with no depreciation over the 3 years. It also had the best load space and could tow 3500kg and it was a true 4wd, but the rear seats were very uncomfortable on long journeys for adults (my dad moaned for 650k's once) It did have a commanding driving position and owners wave at each other :D It had the aero dynamics of a brick though. I always swore I'd never get another Landrover but the Defender was a great experience and I'd buy another.

At the end of the day a car is not (for most of us) for life, it is a depreciating asset and often a necessary evil. I have to say in your position I'd buy a Subaru I think. If it doesn't suit and you won't know that until you've driven it for a while, sell it they have a good resale value compared to a commodore or the like.

In an off road situation manual is generally considered best because of the ability to engine brake, automatics are less prone to heavy footed wheel spins though.

Am sure all that didn't help at all :D

Cheers

Dave

[JDub]

If you don't get the extra room it will gnaw at you that you compromised even if it's only a few times a year, also removes doubt on those boat ramps.


Yep, this is what I am worried about. I think I will just cop the extra running costs rather than spend the next few years bitching and complaining that I cant get the dog and the camping gear in the car!

BTW nice looking car, what year is it?

[HappyHammer]

It's a 2002 GLS we bought 1 year old for $38K and I haven't had a single problem with it. The outlaws have a farm and I've bounced it about a bit up there and it's been fine, even with a trailer full of rock.

HH.

[DanP]

I hired an X Trail in Qld and proceeded to do about 3000k's in about five days. I found them to be very underpowered and because of this I became frustrated with it. I wasn't towing anything or carrying anything of weight so no excuses there. Fuel economy was ok. I personally wouldn't have one.

If you are going off road I suggest a Landcrusher Turbo Diesel. Get the manual if you are really going off road (not just on the beach). Don't get the plain old Diesel model if you ever want to get anywhere, they are slugs.

The Toyota Kluger received very good write ups recently when compared to the Prado and the Ford Territory. The Territory was on the bottom and the Prado not far behind the Kluger. You won't get a 2nd hand Kluger yet though, only been out a few months.

Dan.

[JDub]

I hired an X Trail in Qld and proceeded to do about 3000k's in about five days. I found them to be very underpowered and because of this I became frustrated with it. I wasn't towing anything or carrying anything of weight so no excuses there. Fuel economy was ok. I personally wouldn't have one.


Thanks for the insight, Looks like I will be going with the Pajero as I will be towing on occasion. My old man has had cruisers since I can remember (he updates every 3-4 years), love them but they are a bit too thirsty for what I need, and too pricey. Just gotta get the finance sorted now :rolleyes:

Cheers
joel

[TassieKiwi]

My work car is a Kluger CVX. Very hard to fault, in any way, though I have not been 'outback' as yet. Averages 11-12l/100km. Quiet. Refined. Supple suspension. Towed a 2t load with no complaints (though only rated for 1600k I think). Excellent traction in the snow (100km/h through the Lake Secondary road in fresh snow - awesome).


Toyota have a habit of changing their executive's cars after about 6 months. If you get on the web and watch the auctions (Pickles etc) you could score one - they've been out since Nov '03). Note that Toyota dealers actually buy these vehicles at the auctions themselves! Cheep.

PM me for more info if you wishhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif