Old hoop pine finish

[Jane]

I have recently stripped an early 1920's wardrobe to expose beautiful old hoop pine, using methylated spririts to remove the old shellac and 180 grit to sand the surface. I only recently came across this great forum and, as a result, purchased Neil's book or, as I have come to call it The Gospel According to St. Neil. From that reading and other books borrowed from the library I discern that I have a few choices in finishing the wardrobe. I can use Danish oil or shellac and wax or sanding sealer and wax. Although I am by no means experienced or knowledgeable in the area of wood finishing I have enough experience to know that the polyurethane finish is not what I want so have discounted that method. I wonder if anybody has finished old hoop pine and could advise me on what they consider to be the better finish? I would also appreciate advice on what grade of grit they used to complete the surface. I am seeking to achieve that deep, soft lustre as opposed to shine, that I have often seen in professionally finished hoop pine items. Already some of the timber, especially on the pelmet for example, is silky and shiny. I realise however that I must do a lot more sanding to get the appropriate overall effect.

Thank you
Jane

[derekcohen]

Jane

I used blond shellac then Ubeaut Traditional Wax on a similar project some months ago ("Roadkill Wardrobe", http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=8699). It came up warm and natural.

I'd love to see a few pics of yours. I believe mine was also hoop pine but I'd love to compare to be sure.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[RETIRED]

I have recently stripped an early 1920's wardrobe to expose beautiful old hoop pine, using methylated spririts to remove the old shellac and 180 grit to sand the surface. I only recently came across this great forum and, as a result, purchased Neil's book or, as I have come to call it The Gospel According to St. Neil. Jane

You know how to grovel, don't you? :D

[outback]

She'll fit in real good round here won't she Mr , MAster Sir. :D

[echnidna]

To get the color and patina you are after use orange shellac.

[Jane]

Thank you for the suggestions.

Derek, your wardrobe is a real credit to you. I do have a photo of my wardrobe but won't be much help to you at this stage as it was stained a dark brown. However, I will certainly post a photo when I finish. It's coming up very nicely, right back to the raw timber and up to 800 grit. Still vacillating about the finish though. I am pretty familiar with hoop pine and looking at your photos the door frames of your wardrobe certainly look like the hoop pine around our place. Our entire house walls, ceiling, 1'' x12 ft vj boards and floors 6"boards are constructed from this particular timber. I don't know how true it is but many old timers around here (SE Queensland) claim that hoop pine is termite resistant!!! Well, our house is almost 100 years old but that wont stop us from having annual termite inspections. Another giveaway that yours is hoop pine is the way you describe it as like working with 'butter'. I have heard the exact same description from woodworkers around here in reference to working with this timber.

A couple of points about your wardrobe as a comparison to mine: whilst my wardrobe is more ornate (carved ie machine tooled insertable panels), double bevelled mirror etc, the construction you describe is almost identical ie nails with the wood butted up against other timbers. Like yours, only the bottom drawer is, what I call dovetailed, is that the same as mortise and tenon? I would think that they are of a similar vintage albeit yours may be a couple of years younger. Just a couple of questions: was your wardrobe not stained? Second, and more importantly, what is the backing on your wardrobe? Mine is backed with 6" vj boards (same as floorboards of the period). This is important in dating the furniture as from about the time of WW1 boards went out and plywood was used as a backing for cheaper furniture of which both our wardrobes are. Its not so cheap any longer.

A couple of bits of information that might be of interest to you.. Please ignore if I am 'selling coals to Newcastle'.
After the NZ kauri pine, hoop pine ranked as the second most important softwood used to make utilitarian furniture in Australia (from the mid 19th century until the late 1930s ) including cheaper kinds of cabinet work.

I should have my wardrobe finished in a couple of weeks so I will be delighted to post it to this forum for you to see.

Thanks again.
Jane

[derekcohen]

Jane

Thank you for such an interesting post. I had little idea at the outset of the history of the wardrobe I restored, nor experience of the hoop pine from which it was constructed. I was very curious and looked around for information on the internet, but could not find anything at all. I had estimated it around the 1930 mark, and I see that was quite close as it is probably closer to 1920.

To answer a few of your questions. Firstly your ornate insertable panels. One of my doors had a panel like this, while the other panel's insert was absent (a piece of ply had been nailed inside as a replacement). I chose to make and fit jarrah raised panels. But it is possible that our doors were exactly the same!

The bottom drawer is dovetailed. There are hand-cut half-blind dovetails on the front and through dovetails at the rear. Mortice-and-tenon joints are used in the door construction (you would not use these in drawers).

My unit was not stained, as far as I could tell, although it was a darkish colour. This was almost certainly the patina of aged wood finish (probably shellac), but it was so dry that I chose to plane it off rather than use any chemicals. I used hand planes to take off very fine shavings, so-much-so that the timber lost hardly any thickness but was left with a clean and shiny surface. The use of shellac and wax restored the warmth of an antique finish. While the container referred to the shellac as "blond", it had a slight orange colour, so it did darken the timber slightly.

The backing was ply. It was in a bad state - warped (like much of the timber in the construction) and brittle. I chose to replace it with very similar ply, although a part of me really wanted to use tongue-and-grooved boards (and I may still do so). The wardrobe is full and the backing is invisible (but I know).

I am looking forward to seeing your pics.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ubeaut]

Jane - If you want it to keep any of it's antique value, albeit probably very little, then it would be best to finish it with shellac rather than danish oil as the was the preferred finish of the time. Personally I would use brown shellac to give the piece the warm golden glow that looks so well on hoop pine.


Cheers - Neil :)

[outback]

"brown shellac" wots this brown shellac. I've heard of orange shellac, blonde shellac, but never brown shellac.

I think I've just taken a shellacing :D

[Restorer]

:) Hi Jane
I'm a professional antique, old style furniture and home restorer. I have been restoring timber for the past 20 years and have restored a number of old robes like yours in different timbers including Hoop Pine. I would agree with Neils advice above, But would like to add

1 Finish your sanding with a 240 or higher grade paper (240 min)
2 Wipe the unit down with a metho soaked rag (lint free) to show you the true colour and any imperfections in the timber. The metho will evaporate quickly so note or mark the imperfections with chalk and repair them before applying any coatings.
3 When you are happy with the look of the unit apply the first coat of shellac, Brown shelac is aged orange shellac - i.e you can tint shellac with tinting powers or universial tints purchased from paint suppliers or you can put some orange shellac into a clean sealable tin can and leave it for a couple of weeks or more and the shellac will oxidize, turning it from an orange to dark brown-black colour. You then use this to mix in and mellow out & darken the freshly mixed orange shellac. Remember this first coat of shellac will act as a sealer coat, so be careful of runs and don't go over what you have already coated.
4 Once the first coat is dry, very lightly sand with 400-600 grade paper. Carefully on edges not to cut through the first coat. Light sanding means that you are only taking of the high spots of the raised grain & settled dust and scoring the surface for the next coat.
5 Wipe sand dust off, then apply next coat, then repeat step 4
6 Apply next coat, at this stage once dry you can decide if it needs another coat or not. If so repeat 4 + 5 untill you are happy with the look of the unit.
7 By this time the finish should have a shine (as the more coats of shellac the shiner the finish) to achieve that deep, soft lustre look, lightly sand the unit for the last time and apply a good quaility wax. I personally use clear and black tinted waxes to achieve different looks. I use black wax to give me that old aged patina look - makes the units look like they are 100 years old.
8 Once the wax is dry, lightly rub with clean rags, The harder you rub the shiner the finish. You can repeat the wax stages as many times as you like, as this will just add to the deep, soft lustre look you are trying to achieve.

If you would like any more info just contact me or you may wish to check out a beaut Oz do it yourself information site I found the other day with heaps of great woodies stuff, home restoration stuff and finishing stuff. :cool: www.diyinfo.com.au (http://www.diyinfo.com.au)

Hope this helps, Good luck

Restorer

[derekcohen]

Hi Restorer

Welcome to the Forum. Great advice. I hope we hear/see more of you in the future.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jane]

Restorer, thank you so much for taking the time to provide such detailed information. I have printed it out and will follow it to the letter. Already I have the shellac oxidising away in a tin. I really do appreciate it and am sorry I have not been able to reply earlier. In this part of the Oz, as I guess is the case in lots of other places, our lack of rainfall is keeping us pretty busy. We have small acreage and are trying to reafforest having cut down a rampant pine plantation (planted by the previous owner to halt the soil erosion caused by the developer selling off the topsoil!!! A common practice apparently). We have replanted with some few hundred local indigenous trees, including red cedar, tulip wood, silky oak etc. It sure keeps us busy especially as we have had only about 8mm of rain since April 29.

I have a couple of questions:

1. Would you recommend applying the shellac with a cloth or a brush? I describe below a piece I finished with shellac (my first) where I actually made a rubber. Since this piece is carved I am not sure which would be best. Perhaps in the end it is personal preference.

2. Black wax: I would like to use U-beaut Traditional Wax. I notice it comes in some colours but not black. Is it possible to make up a black wax using this product?

3. A general question about sanding. My dictum has been more is better and tend to sand up to 1000 grit. Is there a case where less is actually more, if you get my point?

On the subject of trees. Derek, I meant to to tell you that we have the 'mother of all hoop pine' on our property. It towers boughs and branches above the other native species in which it stands and measures almost 4 metres around the girth. It has spawned generations of hoop pines around the area.

I can't wait to finish this wardrobe and am not sure which will give me the greatest pleasure installing it in the room for which it is meant or posting to this forum for you all to see.

In the meantime I have tried to post a picture of a silky oak wash stand circa 1900 that I bought in pieces from a local market. It was finished in black shellac and the piece is very reminiscent of the Japanese influence that exerted itself in the early part of the 19th century, quite different to the Victorian washstands that have become popular. I cajoled, bullied, bribed and blackmailed HWMO into making the missing pieces (quite a feat given he is not very adept at woodworking). I then reglued the joints, sanded to 1000 grit and applied a diluted Feast and Watson black Prooftint (so the grain would still show through even though it did not on the original piece). I finished the cabinet in many coats of shellac and then rubbed wax into the surface using 0000 steel wool. I always thought shellac was for the experienced wood finisher, not for the likes of me. I was very surprised at how easy shellac application was and, it seems to me, not only a better finish but more forgiving and easier to repair than polyu.

I am particularly proud of the mirror that goes with this cabinet. This was found in a friend's backyard. It had begun it's life as a three pane casement window frame and concluded its first reincarnation covered in generations of paint, dirt, and mould. I was struck by the workmanship. The joints were as straight and solid as the day they were made and the detailing not something you would find today. I removed one of the internal frames and again cajoled etc HWMO to replace it vertically in the centre of the remaining frame. Finished it in the same way as the cabinet and put in two pieces of textured coloured glass and applied two brass hat hooks either side. It stands above the washstand its second reincarnation is as a hall stand. I hope I have restored some dignity to these great old pieces. I will try again shortly to post a photo.

Thank you again, Restorer, and I heartily concur with Derek's comments.

Regards
Jane

[Jane]

Whoops, sorry that should read 20th century when the Japanese influence was felt in Australian design.

Regards
Jane

[ubeaut]

Jane the Walnut Traditional Wax is used for this it is such a dark brown that it is almost black and looks more natural than the black. We have a number of restorers and fakers who use it to give the dirty old world look to pieces. It is especialy good when used on moldings and carvings.

Cheers - Neil

PS don't leave the shellac in the tin for too long as it will degrade it somewhat.

[Restorer]

Hi Jane,
Thank you for your kind words, they were most appreciated. Nice to hear that you are replanting, good for the enviroment. I like the species you have chosen. Down here in Adelaide we have been almost drowned in rain .... would you like me to send you some lol. Will look forward to seeing your pic's when you post them.

To answer your first question - In the workshop I personally spray a lot of my shellacs and only reserve the french polishing method for full on antiques. When we are restoring old homes we normally brush our shellacs. From what you have said it sounds like you know what you are doing so stick to what is comfortable for you.

As for your second question about waxes, this is purely about personal choice. You don't have to use black- brown is fine, so is clear, just depends on what look you what. (I use black wax when clients want that old rustic look or to age repo's). if you are unsure, make up a sample boards using different colours to see which one you like.

As for sanding, it's one of my least favourite parts of the job ( normally assigned to the apprentices). Again this is governed by the condition of the peice itself,the look you are trying to achieve and your energy levels. Sometimes with old antiques, we sand as little as possible to maintain the patina and value of the unit, other peices we have to sand heavily but as a general rule we normally finish with 400 grade on most raw timbers, but there are exceptions to the rule form time to time, especially dealing with soft woods.

Derek ..... Thankyou for your warm welcome to the forums. Yes I will be popping in and having a natter as much as time restrants will allow.

Regards .... Restorer