Atnique Table Restoration

[Mem Wright]

I have recently inherited an antique dining setting that was brought out to Australia from England in the 1970's. In the 90's it was "murdered" by an amateur restorer who removed all of the French polish and coated the entire table with one coat of polyurethene. The table has a cedar top and turned legs and I think the legs are rosewood. I have been quoted $2.5K to have it restored professionally.

I am choosing to restore the table myself. I am working on the legs first and have started to hand rub them back with fine grade sandpaper but find getting into the grooves above and below the turned bits really hard. I now have the following questions:

Is it ok to use a "mouse" sander on the legs?
For hand rubbing what grade sandpaper is best?
Is there anything I can use to get into the grooves to remove the polyurethene such as some sort of sanding tool or specially formed sandpaper? Silly question I know but I had to ask it.

I am going very slowly and carefully. I am wondering also if there is a durable finish that would be acceptable to use on the table as French polish is definitely out because this setting will be used every day.

This table deserves some TLC and thank you in advance for any suggestions.
Mem:)

[rsser]

Big job!

Grit: as coarse as is needed. Trade-off between speed of removal and scratches left behind. For similar work I've started with a paint scraper which is a steel plate with several different curves as well as a hook, mounted at right angles to the shaft. Dunno the tech term. You might also consider a gentle paint-stripper; that'd leave fewer scratches.

Abrasives: there are moulded abrasive blocks on the market made out of foam I think. For outside curves you can use a flap sander mounted in an electric drill.

For finishing, take a look at Ubeaut's hard shellac. Said to be good enough for tables that get used.

Added: for the top, you could also use a well-tuned cabinet scraper to get the poly off. These work well. If not, stripper. Then clean up with a Random Orbital Sander - bees knees for sanding back.

[Mem Wright]

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my request, your suggestions are very much appreciated. I can see I will have to take a trip to the hardware shop tomorrow. I'm interested that you have suggested a stripper. The thought of using a paint stripper gave me the horrors. I think back to some disasters I had in the 70's with paint stripper. However, I did not realise that there are mild ones so I will also check them out too.

Once again, thank you for your suggestions,
Kind regards

[rsser]

Pleasure.

Yes, there are milder formulations around though I've used some of those you've had experience with on Aust. cedar and blackwood without problems.

Most of the area you have to do will be flat and go quickly with scraping or stripping and then fine sanding with the ROS - those things are great. But if you go down that road just make sure that with the coarser grits you start on that you keep moving the unit to avoid dips. The cedar may be soft; Australian stuff sure is.

Moulded foam abrasive blocks you may find hard to locate locally. Try a google. Ditto flap sanders.

Good luck.

[Woodwould]

The combination of a Cedar top and Rosewood legs sounds peculiar, but if it is an antique table, do NOT use sandpaper on it. I understand the table was botched by someone else, but you will reduce any residual worth considerably by sanding it.

I would recommend you clean off the top layer with stripper/meths/turps/steel wool until you have a sound basis on which to build up new polish.

[rsser]

Mem, the contoured scraping tool I mentioned is called a combination shave hook. Saw one in Bunnings this morning.

Woodwould, I've restored two Oz cedar chests and one blackwood table with sanding and all the rest. With care the finish was fine, and that was pre-ROS days.

Added: forgot to ask whether there's inlay on the top. My advice would be different if there is.

[Woodwould]

Woodwould, I've restored two Oz cedar chests and one blackwood table with sanding and all the rest. With care the finish was fine, and that was pre-ROS days.
With respect rsser, one could use a belt sander, and still bring up an imaculate polished finish, but once the original surface of an antique has been removed, the greater proportion of the value has been lost too.

[rsser]

Good point, and a decision for Mem to make.

Question is what are the odds of removing the poly without affecting the prior surface.

[Woodwould]

If the 'amateur restorer' didn't resort to drastic means and merely cleaned off the existing French polish, then the original table surface could well be preserved under the polyurethane. If that's the case, then a good quality furniture stripper will be capable of removing the varnish gently enough to, again, preserve the original surface.

If the original surface is preserved, then with a little skill, it could be brought back to a reasonably presentable period appearance. If on the other hand, the original surface was lost to sandpaper or scrapers, then, in the hands of an amateur, the table top will look brand new and will have little to no commercial value as an antique. However, it may still serve Mem very well as a table.

$2,500 sounds like an awful lot of money for restoration, but may well reflect the table's condition (a really good restorer can make a sanded table top look like it's only ever been lovingly cared for). $1,250 doesn't sound out of the way to have the table professionally restored, however, is the table really an antique and what is its current worth versus its value when fully restored?

[Mem Wright]

I must thank all of you for your valuable input, it is very much appreciated.

Firstly, yes the table is an antique, I have had that confirmed by 3 professional restorers. I have the top confirmed as being cedar, but the wood on the legs at present is unknown because the gunk (polyurethene) is so dark it is virtually impossible to tell. My naive opinion is that the legs are not the same as the top and I am only assuming they are rosewood because after rubbing back a turned section, the wood has a pinkish look about it.

Secondly, my mother-in-law was very upset about white marks on the French polish. At the time, she had a "handyman" doing some painting at her place and made the mistake of mentioning it to him. He professed that he had restored antiques and that he could fix it for her. She was nothing short of devastated when the table was returned. To say the job was botched is an understatement! There are visible sanding marks all over the top and the professional restorers told me that they are so bad, that usually a sander would never be used on such a piece, but there is no choice but to sand this one. I have been guaranteed the table would be returned to its former antique beauty and value.

Thirdly, I appreciate your comments about paint stripper, I will do some research into this and I think I will use it on the legs and wood under the top, but the top will absolutely need to be sanded, unfortunately.

Fourthly, I got 3 quotes and I quoted the top price. Prices ranged from $1.5 - $2.5K.

There are 4 beautifully carved balloon back chairs that go with the table and the antique value is not important to me because I have no intention of selling the setting. However, I believe that by being careful, taking my time and doing my research, I can restore this table, maybe not to 100% of its former beauty but I will be happy with 90%.

In conversation with an antique dealer, I was told that after the top is sanded, to rub the wood with a smooth raw bone. Has anybody heard of this and what is the point of doing this?

I have been making notes from the feedback I have received and I really appreciate your time.

Kind regards,
Mem

[Mem Wright]

Hi rssr,

No the table doesn't have any wood inlay thank goodness. It a circular and does have an extension leaf. Also thank you for the combination shave hook advice. I'm off to Bunnings to check out the paint stripper but it does make me nervous going there because I can't imagine I will get any advice that I could believe about antique restoration. I will watch this space instead. :)

Regards,
Mem

[Woodwould]

In conversation with an antique dealer, I was told that after the top is sanded, to rub the wood with a smooth raw bone. Has anybody heard of this and what is the point of doing this?

The majority of antique dealers in Australia are entrepreneurs, a mere step up the ladder from secondhand car dealers. They usually know as much about antique furniture as secondhand car dealers know about cars (if you want to know about antique furniture, ask a good restorer and if you want to know about cars, ask a good mechanic). Which takes me to the remark about smooth raw bones. It's one of those old chestnuts from the same folder beloved of antique dealers that contains such gems as using dark bootpolish to age furniture, cleaning furniture with vinegar and brown paper etc., etc., etc. It's dangerous (mis?)information in the wrong hands.

I take your point about sanding your (previously badly sanded) table top. I wish you well with it.

[rsser]

Raw bone eh? Don't have to bury it in the ground on a full moon and leave it for a month?

With the stripper, see if you can find a more or less hidden place that has the poly and do a test. Follow the instructions carefully.

And bear in mind that there may be surprises in store when you get the goup off. Eg. a lot of Australian cedar was grain-filled with white stuff, since the shellac was bodied with some brown or red opaque-ish goo to make the wood look like another species.

Added: if you want the resto to roughly match the chairs in colour, bear this in mind when choosing the finish for the table.

And you may benefit from reading A Polishers Handbook (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/book.html). Last time I looked it assumed mainly starting from bare wood and the restorer will often be starting from/with something else.

[Thumbthumper]

I've restored a number of Australian Cedar items.

Your best friends are metho and fine steel wool (if the original shellac finish is still somewhat there).
A combination shave hook is also vital for cleaning up details.
I never sand cedar. If the surface is too far gone, I may plane it off (this is rare).
Some Cedar items, such as the first chest pictured, had their grain filled with plaster (or red brick dust), and stained with a deep red stain. Seems the customers wanted this :?, you can't see the grain.
The plaster grain filler can be removed with warm water and a course cloth. This can take a log time, but it is worth it.
Here are some pics of a Cedar chest I've restored. It had it's original finish. I'm cleaning back the wood with metho and 0000 steel wool. The top looked like it had measles, because the board had dimples that the grain filler sat in and I couldn't get it out. I lightly planed it (keeping as much 'character' as possible).

PIC 1 : Before
PIC 2 : Cleaning
PIC 3 : After
PIC 4 : Painted Cedar chest that was restored also with this method. No after photos yet (I'll post one later). I did have to apply some new cross-banding on the top, but the painted finish was removed with metho and steel wool.

To finish, I apply a neat coat of shellac as a grain filler. Buff back with steel wool. Then using a mouse pad, polish on a couple of coats of shellac. When the grain has filled (I want a satin look generally), I use a shellac/BLO mix, and rub on with the mouse pad.
Final finish is furniture wax.

If the finish you have is poly, I would use naval jelly.

Sorry to hijack the thread :cool:
regards,
Stu

[Thumbthumper]

......but the top will absolutely need to be sanded, unfortunately.


Could you just use card scrapers, or a scraper plane ?

[Mem Wright]

Once again, thank you all for your very constructive replies and advice. Rssr thank you also for your tip re A Polishers Handbook, I will follow up on that too.

The chest of drawers are magnificent. I know that as my table was brought out here from the UK, it is most likely not Aust cedar so I hope I won't find any white gunk or pitfalls when I come to work on the top.

I like the advice about antique dealers & car salesmen. I'll spare the table & give the bone to my dog.

This arvo I checked out the paint stripper & shuddered to see the old brand from the 70's is still being made. I am interested in a stripping gel, supposed to be mild & it's called Citristrip & its companion is called Paint Remover Wash. If I go for this brand, is it necessary to use the paint remover wash or would water (??), metho/steel wool be sufficient?

Kind regards,
Mem

[rsser]

'Fraid I don't know anything about Paint Remover wash Mem.

Under the poly you're going to find shellac and this will have soaked well into the wood. The stripper may well not remove it all but first you need either a chemical or mechanical means of dealing with the poly. Then you might resort to Meths and steel wool to deal with the shellac or else start sanding; but first see what's left after the stripper.

[austermite]

G'day Mem

I don't know how much help I'll be but I'll add a few thoughts.

It may be worth trying OOOO steel wool and metho on the polyurathane - if it has any effect you'll be able to strip it without changing the shape of the wood.

Sanding is for removing scratches and replacing them with smaller scratches working throught the grits until the scratches are too small to see. Most people create a very uneven dished out surface when they try to sand something back.

As the top has existing sanding marks and is probably not flat I would probably hand plane the top and get as many blemishes as possible out with a scraper and then start sanding with the highest grit capable of removing any visible marks - i.e. I would prefer to start with 240 grit rather than 80. I have a fairly finely tuned hand plane and a fair bit of training in this area which you may not have. If you're feeling really dedicated you could find someone running a plane fettling course and go along with an old Stanley No.6. The difference between a tuned up plane and an off the shelf one is the same as the difference between trying to do joinery with an axe compared to a drop saw.

I think a half sheet orbital sander - the big oblong one is probably the most fool proof for a beginner for maintaining flatness.

Once you've got the thing flat by planing sand like a machine doing the same thing over the whole top in systematic full length strokes - don't do a little bit here, a litle bit there. Imagine a big automated machine in a factory taking a series of cuts - get the idea of sanding away for hours ("oh yes, it's starting to come now") out of your head.

Keep the sandpaper clean either with compressed air or a brush and change the paper often. One sheet will not do the whole table top. Once the sandpaper has stopped cutting and is only burnishing you're wasting time, also its amazing how rubbing away with worn out sandpaper destroys the flatness of the surface.

Read everything you can find about sanding and finishing in general. You'll find a lot of information on these forums and also links to good articles.

The reason people say don't sand antiques is that doing so removes part of the original maker's work. You are effectively making a new piece with the original becoming recyled material for a new piece made by you.

I hope this is of some help.

Regards

Gerard

[Mem Wright]

Hi there Gerard,

Thank you so much for your advice Gerard, it is very much appreciated. I have received some great advice that has given me the confidence to undertake this project. I went ahead and bought a very mild stripper and used it on one of the legs but I found mild as it might be, it still opened up the grain a tiny bit. I then used the stripper remover wash which was good but I also resorted to good old water. I then used meths and steel wool to remove as much of the shellac as I could and as the shellac seems to have soaked well into the wood, I am a bit loathe to continue using the meth because I think it really drying out the wood too. So, after reading your advice re the sandpaper, I agree with you and perhaps it is the lesser of the two evils. I will buy both the steel wool and sand paper that you have recommended and use it to finish off the leg I am working on. I think at the end of the day, I can finish the leg off really well and still get a very nice final finish when I decide what I will use on the table. It certainly will not be polyurethene.

As far as the top is concerned, I am leaving that until the very last and will work on it with my husband who has the planing experience :U. I certainly will need planing because when I run my hand over the top you can feel the unevenness, so thank you for your advice too.

Regardless opinion on antique restoration, I think it is much kinder to the table to have it looking at least 90% of its original condition than the poor sad excuse for a nice table it is today.

I am going really slow, there is no pressure to finish the job and I will just do one leg at a time and to reiterate I have found all the advice, yours included, so helpful and very much appreciated.

Kind regards,
Mem

[rsser]

Here's a source of sanding sponges Mem, for doing moulded sections:

Sanding Sponges | The Sandpaper Man (http://www.thesandpaperman.com.au/sanding-sponges/)

[Horsecroft88]

Mem, looks like there is a lot of good practical advice out there, and Thumbthumpers's resto of his cedar chest certainly shows what can be achieved.

I have been restoring antiques and antique joinery for "pleasure" and occasionally for friends or for sale for the past 18 years. From my extensive experience in restoring such timbers (whether cedar, huon, baltic, kauri, oregan, and even Tassie oak) you really don't need to be afraid of using paint strippers. With my wife, we are currently restoring our 1824 farmhouse, which has cedar architraves, reveals, 6 panel doors, huon pine skirtings etc etc, which have all been coated with multiple coats of paint over the original shellac finish.

I heat gun the paint off and clean off the crud with multiple applications of paint stripper and coarse steel wool. Then once clean and dry, I further clean off with metho and allow to dry. I do sand all the timbers I am working with using 150 grade, passing up to 180 and finishing off with 320. Given I am talking about antique timbers with heaps of patina, the key is knowing how far to sand, since it is all too easy to loose the bumps, scratches, stains etc. I only use shellac finish on my antiques and joinery. I would rarely ever use machine sanding on an antique, but rather do all the sanding by hand as it is a lot kinder to the surface and easier to gauge how far to go.

The method is to apply shellac firstly in a slightly more concentrated formulation (3-4 coats), lightly sand off and then re-apply shellac finish though more diluted with metho (3-4 coats) and then resand and re-apply shellac finish further more diluted. Finally cut back with the finest steel wool and apply bees wax polish. Always follow the direction of the grain and if you are unhappy with the shine after the first bees waxing, give it a second waxing.

You can always add a little cedar stain to the shellac but if doing so, be careful as it can bleed as you apply.

I always use a combination of a paint brush and rubbing pad for the application of shellac (the pad being used in a figure of 8 on large flat surfaces).

Basically if you follow this approach you really shouldn't go wrong. I was tought this method by a retired TAFE furniture restoration teacher when I first started out.

I have just finished restoring a Huon Pine dresser top which when purchased was covered in cruddy pink flaking paint and muck below, off Gordon Brown (Collectors fame !), and as usual it has come out far better than most antiques you see in many shops. The key is persistance, patience and lots of hard work. The results though are worth it. :D

[rsser]

FWIW I learned to start with a dilute shellac wash or two and then go to stronger ones.

[pully]

I wood use a paint stripper and a bar top polish. make sure too wash the job down with meths or thinners if you use paint stripper.

[stuffy]

Hi Mem. Did you get a quote from Geoff Backman in Tindale St? I haven't spoken to him for a while. he may have finally retired. He is a genuine old school french polisher who wouldn't rip you off.
I would recommend stripper washed off with plenty of meths and fine steel wool. You should be very careful not to mark or remove the original timber surface by scraping or coarse sanding.
If you don't like the smell of stripper try Citristrip It smells like oranges and is very effective. They have their own remover /wash but meths works ok. Follow directions on the can and don't forget good rubber gloves.
I would be happy to come and see it and give you a hand if you like.
best wishes
steve :)