the state bureaucratic monster

[Gingermick]

This is an interesting article (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26221417-601,00.html) and thought it might provoke debate. There must be some people in favour of keeping state governments, but I can't think of any reason why.

[wheelinround]

On mass I think we all agree.

[Bob38S]

I couldn't argue in favour of/for them.

All I can see lately is we pay more, get less and the less we get appears to in the most inefficient form possible.

[masoth]

Indeed, the article is interesting and has been the subject of debate for years. When Australia becomes a republic (I believe this to be inevitable) the major seat shuffling might just allow for a referendum to rid us of the State level of government - it also will require a major face-lift in the local government sector.
This 'change' will not, however, automatically rid us of bureaucratic bumbling and major costs as the present incumbents will drift to the newer power base and take thier 'castle building' thinking with them.

A good post Gingermick. Let's hope for plenty of contribution.

soth

[Gingermick]

I had thought the local sector needed more responsibility, but Captain Bligh has managed to hoist this local government amalgamation on QLD local areas in an apparent effort to put the spotlight on local mismanagement rather than state wide mismanagement.

[Luddite]

I agree we have way too much government for such a small country, however I have a concern with giving too much responsibility to local government. There have been so many local councils sacked for improper behaviour that to give them more responsibility is frightening.

If I could be convinced the local government would not be overtaken by every crooked property developer I would be convinced it is a good idea. Not sure how you will convince me of this, NSW government seems to be doing the bidding for some very strange groups at the moment, so how will the local guys be any different?

Having said this, given we have Nathan Rees in NSW at the moment, local government would at least be entertaining!

Anthony

[artme]

Maybe all levels of government could establish committees to examine this research and contest its validity.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[bobsreturn2003]

Some one once said we have the best goverment money can buy!

[mikm]

I think we need to be aware of the potentially very biased views of "think tanks" such as the Institute of Public Affairs (right wing conservative) or the Australia Institute (lefties). While a couple of years old now, Think Tank Secrets (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/11/1060588322537.html) is worth a read along side anything released by vested interests such as the IPA or the AI.

Having said that, I share concerns about small minded empire builders in local councils being given any more power.

[Gingermick]

I did read somewhere that some research body concluded Australia has about the right number, maybe even on the low side, of politicians.
ye gods, must have been a political think tank

[ian]

This is an interesting article (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26221417-601,00.html) and thought it might provoke debate. There must be some people in favour of keeping state governments, but I can't think of any reason why.I must be reading a different article to you

The one I read said that over the period studied, State government bureaucracies (and by extension the amount of state revenue spent on the wages costs of administrative staff) grew at an unsustainable rate.
I don't disagree.
However, I didn't read anything about the phenomena (which in management speak is called "employee capture") being pecular to the existance of the States per see.

[Gingermick]

True, I just used that argument to enter a debate about ridding us of that appalling waste. And no, indeed that is not an issue endemic to state governments, however the loss of them would leave us with one fewer burden.

[Luddite]

True, I just used that argument to enter a debate about ridding us of that appalling waste. And no, indeed that is not an issue endemic to state governments, however the loss of them would leave us with one fewer burden.

Gingermick,

All you need to do to support your argument, if indeed you do need to do that at all, is to read the front page of the SMH today (or almost any day)....NSW Govt is in an irreversible mess. Our state guys support the best of arguments for not needing them; although the democratic process will without doubt clarify that at the next election.

Cheers,

Anthony

[Gingermick]

yes, but you'll still have politicians and the waste will perpetuate until they are all used as a cheap fertiliser. :oo: Not that i'd advocate anything like that

[q9]

I had thought the local sector needed more responsibility, but Captain Bligh has managed to hoist this local government amalgamation on QLD local areas in an apparent effort to put the spotlight on local mismanagement rather than state wide mismanagement.

My wife used to audit local councils pre-amalgamation. The state governments response was appropriate, and well justified.

Massive difference between well run councils, and badly run councils, of similar size and revenue base. I'm not allowed to say any more than that.

Oh, but remember the old saying. The empty drum makes the most noise...

[Gingermick]

yes I dont disagree that locals councils have performed woefully in some regards, but there is little pressure on their jobs, getting more competition (ex state pollies will need work, at least the ones who can do nothing else) may just force them to smarten their act up.
And Capt Bligh is selling railways, ports, anything immediately after a boom period when the coffers should be overflowing. Something is badly wrong somewhere. (And I'm a labor voter)

[q9]

yes I dont disagree that locals councils have performed woefully in some regards, but there is little pressure on their jobs, getting more competition (ex state pollies will need work, at least the ones who can do nothing else) may just force them to smarten their act up.
And Capt Bligh is selling railways, ports, anything immediately after a boom period when the coffers should be overflowing. Something is badly wrong somewhere. (And I'm a labor voter)

Well everyone in Qld is effectively a Labor voter - there is no coherent, unified alternative that is ready to run :((

Anyhow, Qld is kaput. Me and my friend have been talking about it, and we've decided working in Fed Gv't down in Canberra is the way to go. Councils are broke or in disarray, States are broke, there's only one level of g'vt left with any money, principally because it controls much of the source for the other two...:p

[Big Shed]

Well everyone in Qld is effectively a Labor voter - there is no coherent, unified alternative that is ready to run :((



I haven't used "Qld" and "coherent" in one sentence since Joh came on the scene.:D

[q9]

I haven't used "Qld" and "coherent" in one sentence since Joh came on the scene.:D

I won't have any of that!!

:laughing1:

[Poppa]

Agree totally. Abolish state governments. NSW are the biggest bunch of crooks going around. Anyone paid stamp duty lately. I wrote Morris Iemma a letter last time I had to pay stamp duty, asking what I was getting for my money. I got a reply that basically said that the money goes into the general slush fund and that I should be happy to contribute. Mongrels....

[rrobor]

Well I can tell you, you cant get rid of the beggers. Why? Well they would have to vote themselves out of their cooshy number, and that aint gonna happen. Unless !! now heres a thought, How about instead of a long march we have a ginger march, that'll shake em up.

[Geoff Dean]

This is an interesting article (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26221417-601,00.html) and thought it might provoke debate. There must be some people in favour of keeping state governments, but I can't think of any reason why.

Where else are the useless *&%$#@*@$^%&s going to get work, they would all end up in a Centrelink office on the wrong side of the counter.

You should try living in a border community like Albury and Wodonga. The bureaucratic garbage and waste that goes on because of it is phenomenal. We have in effect 5 levels of government in our community; 2 local, 2 state and 1 federal. :((

[Gingermick]

ow bugger, that would be unpleasant.
The only way I can think of to rid us, is to all cast donkey votes. until they surrender power to someone more able than I

[damian]

I try to stay away from these threads but here goes.

As has been said read think tank articles with a grain of salt. IPA has a lot of interesting ideas but they are ultimately right wing propoganda/lobbying machine for some fairly unsavoury characters. The lefties are just fruitcakes and only get media attention because the brain dead journos are luny lefties themselves. You can dress stupidty up as anything you want but it's still stupid.

The council amalgamations were about easy passage for developers, not efficiency or anything else. Bigger councils are less accountable. Councils whole reason to exist is high resolution representation. We in Brisbane have the absurd situation of fewer voters per state member than councillor.

Qld PS numbers grew to a lesser % than the population growth during the period mentioned but it's also true the increases were in managment/admin not front line "workers".

I have advocated for decades to anyone who will listen a 2 tier system with councils based on federal seats, ie 80k voters per council about 15 councillors per council. With about 5k voters per you not only know what party they belong to but their names and addresses. That'll get their attention. Ditch the state governments and leave the federal parliment as is, but give the councils a caucus power to dissolve all levels of gov and call an election. Moreover have fed and council election on the same day, fixed, once every 3 years.

This way we can fix australia one community at a time.

Never happen, too many vested interests.

[artme]

Don't know of any system of government that works to the advantage of all - except perhaps the one in Andora.

The corruption and self serving at any level in Oz pales into insignificance compared to what goes on here in Brasil.

For instance the BR 101 is the main north/ south hwy. in Rio State. Rio State has massive oil reserves and oil revenues and yet this hwy. is an overloaded two lane concern. What happened? The state sold the road to private company to raise money for road improvement. None of the money went to the road from what anyone knows. Toll booths are being erected by the company to raise money to build extra toll booths and put up radar traps. A proportion of any excess money goes to the company.

According to the locals the rest goes to politicians.Tha may not be quite true but I suspect there is a fair amount of truth in the story.

I was talking to an ex radio announcer from Brasil while we were in Buzios last week.He sees several problems that are similar to the ones I see in Oz. The big media organizations are too powerful, and in some cases just political lackies.Much of what we see and hear is filtered - defacto censorship. He was in a position to know and I think most of us suspect that to be the case anyway.

This is where I believe the internet could, and should, be a force for good by being a ferocious watchdog.

Another interesting point he made was that in Brasil people cope with a system they see as robbing them blind by joking about it.Isn't that the truth in Oz too??

I guess it comes down to what Will Rogers said: "politicians are funny people. When they make a law it's a joke and when they make a joke it,s a law"