TV cableing

[Theva]

Guys & gals,

I am thinking of adding some extra TV outlets in our place and have a few questions to people in the know :D .

Project:

Cable length will be around 30m (main) with four tee offs (less than 1m each) and one end to individual outlets. There is sufficient access to subfloor & wall cavities. Existing reception level is good.

Questions:

1) Plan is to run coax cable and loop them into wall cavities then use four teeoffs / loop mech or passive spliters and one end socket. Is there a better way of doing this?

2) Do I need a booster?

3) How to combine pay TV (future) with the antenna connection and use a common infeed to all outlets?

4) Do the F series connectors (HPM) make a difference?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Theva

[RETIRED]

Iain, right up your alley. :D

[Guy]

Use quad sheild RG6 coax with the best quality F connectors you can get, i used clipsal f connector inserts and ran 2 coax runs from each piant 1 for TV the other paytv. F connectors i got from Radio Parts use the crimp variety not the screww on type.
Run them back to a central point and use a 4 way splitter for each signal, if you are in a poor signal location use a hill amp on the tv side. You will end up with 2 splitters, when you eventually get pay tv connected, if using optus run the input side to a location where you want optus to connect to, they wont ask any questions why you did that. For foxtel run a coax to an point where they will install there isolator, any unused points at the outlets just install F type 75 ohm isolators on them to reduce the signal loss.
Hope this helps.

[Theva]

Thanks Guy,

Just to confirm that I got it:

1) TV & pay TV require seperate systems & outlets.

2) It is better to use one 4way splitter than loop the cable and use tee connections.

3) At the outlet end, install F type male fitting to cable and then

a) female to PAL socket for TV and,
b) female to pay TV outlet.

Additional questions:

What is a F type isolator? Is it the same as DC signal blocking thing?

Thanks & regards

Theva

[Dylan SJ]

This (http://www.hometech.com/learn/video.html) US site has an excellent article on antenna and video (payTV) distribution. It IS US so there may be some different requirements for local installations.

To distribute pay TV, I combine the RF output from the set top box with the antenna feed using a reversed 2-way splitter, then pass it through an amplifier and split it out to all the points in the house.

[Sturdee]

To distribute pay TV, I combine the RF output from the set top box with the antenna feed using a reversed 2-way splitter, then pass it through an amplifier and split it out to all the points in the house.

Does that mean you can watch different channels on different TVs at the same time or is it only the same channel available from all points.

Peter.

[Dylan SJ]

It would be the same pay TV channel on all points unless you had multiple set top units. Then it would be 1 channel per unit.

[Barry_White]

Theva

I have setup in my house 10 outlets at which I can watch Free to Air TV, Pay TV or a Video playing on one Video machine.

To set it up you should as Guy says cable it in quad shielded RG6 cable and use F type connectors on the ends of the cable.

I also have a booster after the video recorder as well as a masthead amplifier although I am 200 klms from the transmission tower.

To make this work you have to run every thing through the video machine

Do not use any Dick Smith or Tandy crap but use GME Kingray components.

The booster after the video machine is a DW30 GME Kingray.

I have done a sketch of how you should set it up along with some pictures of some of the components.

Pictures
1.GME Kingray Booster
2. Screw Type Mounting Plate
3. Two Way Splitter
4. Crimp F Connectors
5. Set up of cableing

On the next post is a picture of the crimping pliers possibly available from Bunnings in the TV cable section and a cable stripper available from Dick Smith electronics

[Barry_White]

Picture of Crimping Tool and Cable stripper.

[Guy]

Theva commented

Just to confirm that I got it:

1) TV & pay TV require seperate systems & outlets.

Yes this is correct

2) It is better to use one 4way splitter than loop the cable and use tee connections.

Never loop the coax for distribution, it will create to many losses in the signal, and the picture will look snowy

3) At the outlet end, install F type male fitting to cable and then

I usually use a clipsal 2032 wall plates with 2 f type coax inserts, you will require the coax to termainate at the rear on of the socket with a male F type crimp

a) female to PAL socket for TV and,

Use a male f type crimp to PAL socket Crimp connectors for watching TV

b) female to pay TV outlet.

Use as above but provider will normally supply a F type male to male cable
Additional questions:

What is a F type isolator? Is it the same as DC signal blocking thing?

The isolator is there to protect the providers network and yoru TV from dangerous voltages should lightning hit there cable. Optus use what they call is a COWL it is a grey box mounted just under the eaves of the house aboutn 20cm by 30 cm. Telstra mount theres close to the ground and is aboy 10 by 20 cm.
if you did what i did i ran 2 coax's one for optus the other for Telstra and just terminated the splitter end, just connect the coax to the correct provider, i just futre proffed my joint some years back.
I put 3 coax and 3 cat 5 to eack corner of the living rooms and one single point containg all in each bedroom.
Cat 5 cables were terminated on Krone patch panels.
I also bought a channel plus modulator that sits in the cupboard, where the TV outlets get connected to and tv ant is connected, allows me to connect the Optus box to it and the remote can be used oin any room.

Guy

Thanks & regards

Theva[/QUOTE]

[Theva]

Thanks Guys,

Dylan SJ,

That site is very informative and have schematic diagrams, explanation on line losses and required boot / amplification levels etc. I have not finished reading the whole thing yet, still going....

Barry,

You have done what exactly I was planing to do so I will try to duplicate it. Our TV transmission trower is about 20km away (at Chatswood) so a booster at the antenna may not be necessary but one may be required after the video (for combined signal) before splitter. I am planing to use a single 4way splitter as Guy suggested.

I will end up using HPM connectors & the rest because I have to use their outlet plates to match with the rest of the electrical outlets in the house.

Components:
1) 4 way passive splitter 5-2050MHz - cat 1312S4
2) In-line amp 47-2300MHz 19-26dB gain - cat 1312A
3) Power supply cat1313PP, DC blocking units cat 1313B
4) F connectors & sockets - cat 1310 series.

Thanks again guys,

Variety of knowledge and helpfulness of our fellow members & moderators are just amazing.

Regards,

Theva :D :D :D

[soundman]

much of the above info is right on I would add.

use only "F" connectors up to the plates, anybody still using saddle & screw terminations should be flogged.

quad shield coax is great but double shielded american style coax should be fine for free to air, the old style airspace coax is trouble on a roll.

Modern Kingray, hills, or johansen amps are all reasonable, stay away from any of the cheapies.

Any boosters realy need to be selected and adjusted using the appropriate measuring equipment.

A distribution amp will not help much if the incomming signal is low a good masthead booster is better.

avoid the cheap splitters.

It is possible to merge the output of pay TV decoders, vcrs & other stuff into the system but it isn't basic stuff and some of the lesser contractors aren't up to it. Contractualy it is "interesting".

It is important to understand that a 4 way splitter delivers 1/4 of the signal strength to each outlet ( for the tec types -10DB). unless you are real close & can see towers you probably will need a booster for good results.

From experience I can tel you that the vast majority of TV antenna systems do not deliver the best result they can, because most customers do not want to pay to have the job done to meet the standards most installers would prefer to do.

that said most customers would not know the difference unless the picture was obviously badly flawed.

If you want the best picture possible it is worth finding a good antenna contractor and paying them to do the job properly. He will have all the correct tooling, connectors and cable in his truck.
A good quality tradesman like job a 4 way system with a booster should cost $400-$600 if reception is not hard.

Ask him to survey the roof and listen to his recomendation about the best site for the antenna.

Don't even think about putting the antenna in the cieling It might "work" but it knocks the guts out of the signal.

It is not possible to instal a properly compliant antenna system that includes any form of amplifier without a field strength meter.

that said it isnt rocket sience. If you are tech cluey & can get hold of a FSM it isn't hard.

sorry to sound a little agro but I'v seen so many dodgy antenna systems.
Your gona spend good money on a a number of TV's a good antenna system will show them at their best. If your free to air TV doesn't look much clearer than a good VHS tape the antenna system isn't up to snuff.

cheers
a former antenna contractor.

[Theva]

Soundman,

Thanks for your words of wisdom.

The time being, I will do the cabling up only. Booster / distribution amp and splitters will go in later, may get a tradesman with FSM to do it.

Selecting the appropriate amp gain & splitter loss to suit signal strength seems to be the trick :rolleyes: .

When comes to connectors & amps GME/Kingray and Hills seems to be the cable guys preference; probably the electrical equivalent of Clipsal / HPM.

The existing antenna is at the worst possible position, in the shadow of neighbours roof. It had a mix of coax and 300ohm ribbon cabling.

Just relocating the antenna and replacing the cable will do wonders. We do have a reasonably good LOS towards the TV tower (18.5km away).

Again, Thanks for the sound advice man (pun intended).

Regards,

Theva :D

[Honest Gaza]

Just an alternative option for the Pay TV component.

If you just want a second point to watch the Pay TV ( eg. Bedroom ), consider the option of using a Wireless Transmitter / Receiver. Tricky Dicky sells a GigAir 2020 for approx $150. In the case of "analogue" Pay TV, you can even use the Remote Control from the Bedroom to change channels of the STU ( apparently, this may not work on "digital" Pay TV.

[seriph1]

it works - we have: TV in lounge, with DVD player VCR, DVD Recorder, and 2 set top boxes One FTA, one Austar/Foxtel) .... we have a wireless transciever sending signal to our bedroom and can control everything feeding into it from there.... inc. digital PAYTV

....we don't get out much

:D

[Theva]

Seriph1,

So, in your system there is no extra cableing. Everything is in the lounge and a wireless transciever is taking care of the internal distribution.

What is the brand of the transciever and range?

Regards,

Theva

[seriph1]

if, by extra cabling you mean stuff going to the bedroom, no. It is all handled through the transceiver.... the bottleneck in these systems is the number of "ins and outs" in your devices. For example to fully set this up in the optimal way, an A/V Amplifier (ie: Denon Home Theatre Amp AVC-A1) is required ..... this enables numerous sources via coaxial, optical and signal wire...... the other bottleneck is that to be able to control each device you need two things - a universal remote that can learn and has enough categories for all the components (or you need two remotes for everything....or spend your time running back outside in the cold to get the remote you forgot :)
....and the number of infra red repeaters you have with the unit .... these are small "cubes" that go from the transceiver to the fronts of the devices and repeat the signal from your remote/s....... man this is mind-numbing to put down in text :) .... if you dont have enough of these, you can't control all the bits.

Our unit was bought from JB .... it works fine but is upset by two things - our microwave, which is a total pain in the .... because This Old House is on when my wife is usually defrosting something before making dinner! (she is in the lounge watching TV and I am in the bedroom swearing at the TV because of the interference) - and wireless networking, which is bloody bizarre seeing the transeiver is basically one as well! I feel certain those bugs would be ironed out by now.

As ours is two+ yrs old now there would be better ones around, but I havent had time to look.

Sorry for the overly long reply - the unit we have is generic so I can't see any brand - a high-end hifi place ought to be able to help...... also there is a brilliant magazine called electronic house (USA) (there must be others out now) that go into great detail abt this stuff

hope all this is at least a little helpful

steve

[Kris.Parker1]

Set up some mirrors in different rooms so you can sit in the bedroom and change the TV in the loungeroom without having to get up and manually change it.

I personally think boosters are over rated.

[seriph1]

I feel confident that such labour saving devices still have a place in our lives .... especially where it alleviates the need for crawling around in ceilings and under floors to get a TV piccie in other rooms.......after all, you never know if there's some sinister soul observing our every move from the other side of said mirrors (with deference to Mr. Blair/Orwell)

[Barry_White]

I personally think boosters are over rated.
You obviously don't live far enough away from a transmitter to need one or your only running one TV anyway.

[Barry_White]

Kris.Parker1

Must be the highest post rater ever on this forum.


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[Kris.Parker1]

You've been watching too much Poltergeist III

[Barry_White]

Sorry man but I never watch those sort of shows.

I only made this post to become a gold member.

[Bob Willson]

Our unit was bought from JB .... it works fine but is upset by two things - our microwave, which is a total pain in the .... because This Old House is on when my wife is usually defrosting something before making dinner! (she is in the lounge watching TV and I am in the bedroom swearing at the TV because of the interference) - and wireless networking, which is bloody bizarre seeing the transeiver is basically one as well! I feel certain those bugs would be ironed out by now. Try putting a bit of aluminium foil behind, under and over the microwave. This may well reflect all the spurious signals back in another direction and give sufficient shielding.

[Iain]

Pity I didn't see this one a while ago.
Most of the posts are correct and running 30 metres of coax you are going to lose up to 4 to 7db depending upon the frequency range of your local transmitter.
Remember that db runs a logarithmic scale and not linear, 3db is a doubling or halving of signal so 9db is a 800% gain!
Amps are good but this depends upon the type of amp, the cheapy dick tandys are generally just crap but you can get fair dinkum distribution amps at reasonable prices.
I work as a technical rep for Laceys TV www.laceys.tv and they have an office in Chipping Norton which may not be far from you, wander in and ask a few questions and I feel sure they can supply the gear and give you the correct advice as I don't know what sort of signal levels you are running.
For a few connections around the house I think that screw on F connectors are every bit as good as crimps, just that the pro's are doing hundreds and they are slow to apply, but for a one of, who cares.
The difference in price between dual and quad shield is minimal, unless you go to BUnnies, and I would go for quad every time. Having said that there is also tri shield which is also good.
Do not ever use RG59, too much loss and as someone else pointed out anyone who uses airspace coax should be shot with a ball of their owb $h1t.
Kingray amps are good but I think that Alcad are as good and cheaper, try to get an amp that is rated close to the maximum output that you need.
Operation amps run best flat out and can be noisy when turned down.
Also consider Fracarro.
Have a good look at your antenna too and consider getting a high gain unit to improve signal strength.
Apart from splitters you can also use drop taps and specify the signal loss at each run.
Optimum signal strength is 70-75db and if you use an amp and boost this to 100db you can then use a 4 way drop tap with a 20db loss + 3-4 db line loss and have the correct level at the tv end.

Have a look at www.laceys.tv as there are some system designs on board that could be of use to you, and they are not expensive.

[Theva]

Thanks Iain,

Laceys' local office is not far (15km), I will check with them.

Regards,

Theva

[soundman]

I personally think boosters are over rated.

I am not surprised by that perception as most of the "boosters" sold in retail stores have poor noise figures and do little to improve the situation.

Ad to My previous comments.
Stay away from cheap boosters.

I have done some realy edgy installations with high gain low noise boosters for long range work and a good, properly selected & adjusted amplifier can produce stunning results.
Like lismore stations from Mt Gravatt (Brisbane) on a good day.
Brisbane stations from the Gold Coast & down 17 stories, in addition to the local re broadcast.

But you need a skilled operator and good quality hardware.

[Kris.Parker1]

Kris.Parker1

Must be the highest post rater ever on this forum.


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Barry, to explain, I was introduced to this site by a mate and was on leave at the time. As I was only new I decided to have a look and as this is a Forums page decided to have my say. Unless that is if the rules have changed? (ha ha)

Any way, went back to work and if you notice they have dropped off considerably.... Dag Nabbit

Cheers

Kris

:-)

[Iain]

What the hell is a Dag Nabbit, sounds like it could be a prohibited species from the good ole US of A.

[seriph1]

(if you make the connections with this one I will take my hat off to ya)

........ you got any pictures of walter brennan's ankle?

wonder if you will get it ?:D

[Iain]

http://www.rootsweb.com/~genepool/amerispeak/statements.htm
This helped a bit, thanks.
Thank goodness I can speek engrish.

[seriph1]

well done :)

my reference was from Good Morning Vietnam, where the bar-owner was into Walter Brennan ..... for ALL the right reasons no doubt

:)

cheers

[Barry_White]

Barry, to explain, I was introduced to this site by a mate and was on leave at the time. As I was only new I decided to have a look and as this is a Forums page decided to have my say. Unless that is if the rules have changed? (ha ha)

Any way, went back to work and if you notice they have dropped off considerably.... Dag Nabbit

Cheers

Kris

:-)I did notice that. I've also dropped of a bit but I don't have anyone jerking my chain so I can post anytime I like.

I find that it's good to have new members because they find all the old posts and revive them.

[Kris.Parker1]

What the hell is a Dag Nabbit, sounds like it could be a prohibited species from the good ole US of A.
Dag nabbit (or God Dammit)

Redneck term I believe.

And yes, darn tootin, it is from the USA