To Fill or Not to Fill [Archive]

Bledrin

10th September 2009, 04:21 PM

That is the question.

As I've mentioned in a few other threads I've got a hardwood table top that needs finishing. My Father and I built it and as such its a bit of a rough job. (old man is a builder, I believe you all speak of such carpenters as wood butchers...:rolleyes:)

I've started sanding it and have decided I need to fill some bits and pieces. I was hoping for a bit of a how to reply..

Here are some pics of bits that might need filling. Please comment on weather you think I Should fill them or leave them, considering that its reclaimed hardwood.

Waldo

10th September 2009, 04:40 PM

G'day Bledrin,

I'd fill them. Not with a timber filler though, but with resin instead. :2tsup:

masoth

10th September 2009, 05:51 PM

G'day Mate. What do you propose using the table for, what finish are you thinking of using, and what are the diimensions? I'm guessing there is a simple four-legged stand.

soth

Bledrin

10th September 2009, 07:02 PM

Its a dining table. Will actually be a dual pedestal base. Dimensions are 2070 x 1080. Using China Wood Oil and finishing off with steel wool.

Bledrin

10th September 2009, 07:16 PM

Whats the advantage of resin over filler? Where do I get resin? The other problem is I'm colour blind so its going to be hard to match the colours...

Christos

10th September 2009, 08:21 PM

I have used PlastiBond in the past to seal holes in wood. It can be sanded afterward. I cannot tell you what to expect on a dinning table as to how it will look. Or as to what effect it will have on the final finish. When I have used this I also used a clear finish over the whole piece. Polyurethane finish (effectively plastic). :)

It is a two part mix and for big deep holes I did this in layers. What ever I had left I used to fill holes in the garage.

Christos

10th September 2009, 08:23 PM

I forgot to mention that it Blackish to very dark Grey when dried. You can pick this up from your local hardware store. Made by Shellys.

Superbunny

10th September 2009, 09:54 PM

I collect the sanding dust and mix it with sanding sealer, then I fill the holes and let it dry. It blends in resonably well after a light sand, to my mind better than a filler anyway. You can then apply sanding sealer to the whole top and then give it the finishing sand through the grits then apply your finish. The good thing about this is the sanding sealer binds the dust in place untill your finish is applied.:D:D

SB

masoth

11th September 2009, 12:32 AM

Its a dining table. Will actually be a dual pedestal base. Dimensions are 2070 x 1080. Using China Wood Oil and finishing off with steel wool.
The reason I asked was in case you intended "painting" or "staining" the end product. Superbunny's suggestion is worth your while because the oil finish is going to react differently with whatever finiish you do use, and paint would have not mattered. Collecting the fine sanding dust will create the closest match. The use and size is only relative for paint colour for the impact (over powering) in the room.

soth

Waldo

11th September 2009, 12:25 PM

Superbunny's suggestion is worth your while because the oil finish is going to react differently with whatever finiish you do use, and paint would have not mattered. Collecting the fine sanding dust will create the closest match. The use and size is only relative for paint colour for the impact (over powering) in the room.

soth

And a great idea. :2tsup: I've not yet used the method so it hadn't occurred to me to recommend it.

Bledrin

11th September 2009, 01:31 PM

so how much sanding dust do I need to mix. In other words whats the step by step....

And what is sanding sealer and where do I get it from?

Bledrin

11th September 2009, 01:51 PM

I've just read up on Feast Watsons sanding sealer. From what I gather its like a laquer that then gets sanded off, leaving small gaps in the grain filled. How viscous is the product? With a largish gap between joins like those pictured above will it conform and fill? I suppose it will with dust added? Will this look odd under an oiled and burnished finish? I suppose I could leave it clear if I wanted the reclaimed look but with a perfectly smooth finish.

masoth

11th September 2009, 03:33 PM

There have been many discussions on filling using various glues so I suggest you do a search, say "filling cracks" to start with. Put simply, use as much sandiing dust as the 'glue' will hold - perhaps the size of the fill will not be obvious, then again the 'glue' may be the key dicision. Good luck.

soth

Wongo

11th September 2009, 03:44 PM

Bledrin

11th September 2009, 04:26 PM

Love the pinned mitre joint. I still remember how difficult it was to make them. Here is one I prepared earlier.

As for the small cracks, I always fill them with 2 part epoxy. It is easy to clean up with a scraper, it sands well and it is almost invisible.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/picture.php?albumid=65&pictureid=894

Did you have to do any filling on that? Looks great! Is that dark square a result of a function of the piece or a decorative inlay?

Does the 2 part epoxy have to be tinted? What makes it two part? Could you mix epoxy with sawdust or does that only work with the sealing sander?

A sticky thread with a quick refference & pros and cons table for fillers would be great..... Maybe a matrix that links crack with filler with finish....

Bledrin

11th September 2009, 04:35 PM

Wongo

11th September 2009, 04:43 PM

No, the joints had a perfect fit. The dark bit is a Wenge peg. In penetrates the joint from one end to the other. It holds the boards together, so they are impossible to separate.

I always use Bostik 2-part epoxy. It has a clear finish and once it is sanded and finished you can't really see it.

I don't believe in wood fillers. Because you can never get the exact colour to match the wood and you can always see it.

Wongo

11th September 2009, 04:54 PM

I think I just figured it out... I guess that is the pin... The join on our table is just a decorative design....... I'm not sure my father could pull off the pinned miter... He is one of these old dogs that doesn't learn too well, or teach for that matter.

Oh, so how is the joint held together? Biscuit or dowels?

I see that the the table is made of solid wood inside a frame. It does not allow the wood to expend or contract inside the frame. Sooner or later the joint will crack open.

Bledrin

11th September 2009, 05:04 PM

Its not actually solid. The tabletop is a series of 6x2 planks that are joined with a tongue and groove. We ripped grooves into the edges and then glued strips of ply into every second groove to create tongues.. The "frame" is joined the same way but is a different colour hardwood. I believe the joins within the mitres are dowled, but then I wasn't there on that day...

rrobor

11th September 2009, 08:26 PM

My material for the job is moulding and embedding resin. Its made by diggers and you find it in the fibreglass section of Bunnies. Its clear but get a small tin of builders oxide and you can colour it to whatever takes your fancy. Buy the catalyst bottle as well as the tin of resin, sounds daft but they come separate

Bledrin

11th September 2009, 08:51 PM

thanks for ll the ideas guys... I'll have to make a decision and jump in tomorrow...

Bledrin

11th September 2009, 09:30 PM

BAD PIC OF THE TABLE TOP AS A WHOLE http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll7/deesalie/tablea.jpg

Superbunny

11th September 2009, 10:23 PM

Bledrin
I've tried many methods including clear epoxy and epoxy with sanded dust and I have to say sanded dust from the wood you are using mixed with sanding sealer is the best I've ever got to a match. Nothing is perfect, however, I charge a bloody lot of money for my rocking chairs, that I can't afford them for myself and my clients and family have never picked a filed defect that I've repaired with a mix of sanding dust and sanding sealer.

So step one is sand the wood you are using for your project and gather it in a plastic bag, the finer the better. First add a teaspoon of sanding sealer to a plastic cup. Put a little of the sanding dust in to mix with it. Not too much to dry it out but no too little to keep it liquid but to make it into a paste. The mix will darken the sanding dust just like it does when first applied to wood. Apply to the defects and rub it in with an icecream stick untill it fills the void, then leave over night to dry. In the morning sand gently until it levels with the normal surface. You will note the filler will change colour back to the sanding dust origonal colour or very close to it. Now apply your chosen finish.

I've just done this with red gum over the last few days on the project I'm working on now and I can't tell the difference. But remember it's not perfect always.:D:D

SB

Bledrin

11th September 2009, 10:55 PM

Thanks Super Bunny!

spectre

12th September 2009, 07:39 AM

I've seen polyester resin used most frequently for a filler with no colour. It tends to conform to whatever color the area its used in is, so cracks will look black and natural but they are filled.

Never been a fan of sawdust, it will work in PVA and similar glues, but I'd try to avoid them as they are hard to sand quite often. Something harder would be a better vehicle, like the sanding sealer. which should have a fair amount of body to it, aside from the sawdust. I'd probably try and make it into a fairly stiff but workable paste and apply it with a filling blade.

Plasti-bond, or any of the other styrene fillers, can be coloured with stainers or universal colourants, it will make the filler go off a lot faster though. Seems to speed up the reaction time.

Regards

Bledrin

12th September 2009, 10:42 PM

Well I've given the saw dust option a go. Its seriously dark compared to the timber.... I just hope it dries allot lighter. If anyone else is ever looking for an easy way to collect sanding dust, two business cards work a treat...

Bledrin

13th September 2009, 11:29 AM

ahh crap...
It has dried a completely different colour to the timber.

Obviously I've done a crap job of filling, but even so you see the colour is completely wrong. I added enough sanding dust into the sealer so that it was thick enough to easily work with. Would have this been the problem? Should I have stuck with a teaspoon?

I really want to disguise these dodgy joins as best I can. Time to scratch out the filler and start again. HELP!

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll7/deesalie/tablez.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll7/deesalie/tablex.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll7/deesalie/tabley.jpg

Tex B

13th September 2009, 07:45 PM

Superbunny

13th September 2009, 09:55 PM

Well Bledrin, what can I say, I really don't know what went wrong for you, It puzzels me too. I might be wrong, but do I see some sanding sealer in the gaps that has dried a creamy whiteish colour? If so, not enough sanding dust, it must be like a paste. Otherwise, it just don't work on older wood or on some woods. I'll post a pic of something I've done to show you later on when I've got time. Sorry:D:D

SB

Bledrin

14th September 2009, 09:06 AM

I don't think any kind of filler will turn rustic joints into something else. The comments from Superbunny and others would mainly apply to the small gaps and pits in the timber itself, not gaps in a joint.

If I were you, I'd clean out the filler in the joints, finish the table, and enjoy it for what it is - a beautiful piece of furniture made by someone you love, with rustic joinery.

Lots of people pay extra for that look.

Tex

On the surface, what you say make sense, however, it lacks insight into the particulars of the relationship. Lets stick to the gaps in the table and I'll take care of the gaps in my Family...

Bledrin

14th September 2009, 09:30 AM

It just occurred to me that it might not have been a good idea to sand back the filler with an ROS. Would have this "burnt" the filler and made it darken?

Superbunny

14th September 2009, 09:49 PM

It just occurred to me that it might not have been a good idea to sand back the filler with an ROS. Would have this "burnt" the filler and made it darken?

I use a ROS wil 80 grit so I can't see why it would affect it.:D:D

SB

Superbunny

15th September 2009, 10:45 PM

Well here are some pics of a quick repair I did over the last two days. Please note I mean quick, as it needs more work and I'm not completly happy about the end result my self but just to show you. I have got better results on this project with little trubble but I did not expect to do this quick job. Remember I did say it's not perfect.

Pic 1 shows the defect, it's about 2mm deep.
Pic 2 shows the applied mix.
Pic 3 shows the dried filler.
Pic 4 shows the sanded fill.
Pic 5 shows the buffed with eee.:D:D

SB