Insurance for woodworkers

[Toymaker Len]

I've just been told that my insurer will no longer cover woodworkers. About ten phone calls to other companys netted the same response. Seems that we breath too much dust, cut too many bits off ourselves and occasionally see everything go up in smoke. Not to mention members of the public who fall down stairs and sue after being hit over the head with one of our nice solid products.
Does anybody out there have a contact that will provide public liability and general insurance to a woodworker/toymaker ? I am drawing blanks where ever I turn and the market that provides most of my income won't let me in without public liability insurance.

[Zed]

are u saying that because I do woodwork at home for my own enjoyment I cant be insured now ? how do they determine who and why qualifies. sounds like a crock to me. or are you refering to tradies ?

[Rocker]

The Victorian Woodworkers association advertises woodworkers' insurance for $135 a year in the current Australian Woodworker, but see Wood Borer's post.

Rocker

[Wood Borer]

Rocker and everyone else looking for the VWA insurance

The person who is the membership secretary of the Victorian Woodworkers Association is Meg Allan Ph 03 9889 3105.

Meg is a good bird on account she married me 27 or 28 years ago and she does this job voluntarily. Don't ring tonight otherwise you will get me or the answering machine.

Best to ring on weekdays in the afternoon because she might be out shopping in the mornings or even cleaning up my shed! Otherwise leave a message.

The insurance comes with professional membership of the Victorian Woodworkers Association and the fee for 2004/5 is $150 and the period of cover is from September 1 to August 31.

- Wood Borer

[Toymaker Len]

Thanks Wood Borer I will be in touch. The biggest problem for us is the public liability ins. at $10mill. Nobody is touching it this week for humble toymakers.
Zed; it doesn't effect yr houshold insurance. Go ahead, singe, cut and mangle to your hearts content. Just don't trade.
The whole thing makes me look at going up to Bali and getting my stuff made by other people so I can just import it. Lets hope I don't sink that far.

[echnidna]

Woodborer said "The insurance comes with professional membership of the Victorian Woodworkers Association and the fee for 2004/5 is $150 and the period of cover is from September 1 to August 31."

I just sent my membership application for the VWA with $135 in a few days ago so should I send any additional money"

[Wood Borer]

Echidna,

If you are already a member, we will send out renewals in the near future. I am sure SWMBO will sort out the difference with you if you have already sent money.

Contact Meg on the number mentioned earlier to sort anything out including where to send money etc.

- Wood Borer

[kiwigeo]

I've just been told that my insurer will no longer cover woodworkers. About ten phone calls to other companys netted the same response. Seems that we breath too much dust, cut too many bits off ourselves and occasionally see everything go up in smoke. Not to mention members of the public who fall down stairs and sue after being hit over the head with one of our nice solid products.
.
(Rant mode ON)

Ive often wondered who does the risk analaysis for these insurance companies. I think the stats would show more people die from mundane activities like crossing the road or driving to work than sawing themselves in half on a bandsaw or suffocating themselves on workshop dust.

I recently got refused income protection insurance by several companies because I work on offshore oil rigs....was unable to get any specific reasoning for the refusal but there was mention of flying in helicopters. These insurance people need to go and have a look at the over the top safety regulations that offshore rigs work under these days. The most dangerous part of my job is driving from my house to the airport house and the food on the Qantas flight up to Darwin.

A large part of the problem is these numb skulls who go and dive into 6 inches of water with a skinful and then blame the local council because they didnt put up signs saying that such a practice might be dangerous...what ever happend to the good old days when people were responsible for their actions? Also at fault are the legal fraternity who take on such cases and milk them for all theyre worth. These people get huge payouts while hardworking professional woodies who in general take safety in the workshop fairly seriouslý get landed with the costs of paying out these people with through the roof premium rises.

(rant mode OFF)

[Rocker]

Kiwi,

You have to admit that geology is a fairly hazardous profession; I count myself very fortunate that the worst accidents that I suffered as a geologist were breaking a finger trying to start a diesel generator, and breaking an ankle. But I could easily have been attached by a lion, rhino, or elephant; I had a narrow escape when landing in a helicopter on rough ground, and flying in Iranair DC4s is a risky business, as is flying in light aircraft during thunderstorms in North Queensland. I feel a lot safer operating my table saw, now that I am retired :)

Rocker

[kiwigeo]

Kiwi,

You have to admit that geology is a fairly hazardous profession; I count myself very fortunate that the worst accidents that I suffered as a geologist were breaking a finger trying to start a diesel generator, and breaking an ankle. But I could easily have been attached by a lion, rhino, or elephant; I had a narrow escape when landing in a helicopter on rough ground, and flying in Iranair DC4s is a risky business, as is flying in light aircraft during thunderstorms in North Queensland. I feel a lot safer operating my table saw, now that I am retired :)

Rocker
Rocker....rock....geology...geologist

Good God I should have twigged you were a fellow gravel inspector...

More paper shuffling than geology out here...wouldnt mind a bit of old fashioned field mapping.

Martin

[davo453]

I am not an apologist for the insurance industry but worked in the industry for some time (unfortunately).

Risk management is obviously a huge consideration in the insurance industry and some companies are more conservative than others it really depends on the current management and their attitude towards business, if they want/need more business they are less fussy about the type of risk they take on, which essentially means we need more competition in the Australian insurance industry and then they will have to be less fussy.

However my sister is the GCEO of one of the largest insurance companies in the world (UK based) but they consider Australia to be too small and competitive to bother with and have no presence here.

The HIH situation sent shock waves through the insurance industry and they are still being felt, if you get a risk assessor/surveyor knocking on your business door asking to view the premises that’s probably why.

Various industries are considered higher risk and this is a historic thing, it’s simple to look down a list of claims and decide that for example (but not necessarily) woodwork businesses or panel beaters are making more claims than other businesses so we won’t be so keen to write policies.

Insurance businesses are after all just that businesses and they have to make profits (admittedly sometimes obscene) for their share holders and they don’t actually owe anyone a policy, maybe nationalization is the answer.

Cheers

Dave

[jackiew]

Insurance issues are causing massive problems for local sporting groups. Councils won't let you use their grounds or premises unless you can show that you've got huge amounts of public liability insurance ( 10 million is standard ).

But finding insurance at an affordable level can be very difficult.

A local cycling group ( predominantly retirees ) who go for social rides is expected to have massive insurance levels when any reasonable person would believe that someone going along on one of the rides is doing so at their own risk.

If I go for a cycle ride with a group and ( as an example ) the person in front of me chooses to execute some dodgy turning manoeuvre I'm not obligated to follow them.

I as an adult can exercise my own judgment about whether turning right in front of a truck is a good idea or not. Yet theoretically I could sue them if I was dumb enough to turn right when it wasn't safe to do so - hence the need for the insurance.

The lacrosse club now replies you to sign multiple forms before you play the first game trying to minimise the risk.

Any reasonable person would say running around a field where people are throwing a hard ball at a rate of knots and swinging sticks around could be dangerous and therefore you accept the risks when you take to the field.

[Wood Borer]

I have heard that Bicycle Victoria have a good scheme for cyclists.

- Wood Borer

[John Saxton]

One of todays modern ills is the Insurance industry :( any excuse to elevate premiums without due deference to the risk analysis involved.

I guess unfortunately that 9/11 was an event that would happen sooner rather later with the fractious elements that we cohabit the world,with,and as a result it gave the insurance companies ridiculous reason without due cause to have free rein on generating income irrespective of the necessitity by virtue of introspective means.

Such as we now have it today everything we once valued as fair value whether to a club, sports body, tourist outlet etc now has become out of reach for those on not only on tight budgets but because that association can no longer afford to have you involved unless you are prepared to fork out to the insurers bloodyminded glee :mad:

Personally my pet hate is the bloodsucking companies that use insurance as their business line with little or no forthought for the masses that provide for them!!!

Cheers but no beers :mad:

[kiwigeo]

Insurance issues are causing massive problems for local sporting groups.

Any reasonable person would say running around a field where people are throwing a hard ball at a rate of knots and swinging sticks around could be dangerous and therefore you accept the risks when you take to the field.
Im waiting for the day I have to walk out for a bout of sparring at the next state karate champs with a lawyer and a couple of barristers in tow. Its all getting out of hand. What I cant understand is why, even though we sign a waiver absolving the karate club of all responsibilty if we get hurt, the club is still required to have hefty insurance. Ditto goes for alot of the sky diving clubs.

[davo453]

I agree with most that Johnno had to say.

9/11 incident was an excuse in my opinion to raise rates, but I did go to meetings prior to that event and the HIH problems, where they stated (rightly or wrongly) that rates had to rise due to declining profits and increasing claims, 9/11 was obviously the perfect excuse to raise rates and the loss of HIH took away competition from the market..

The high street insurance companies are however at the mercy of the reinsurance industry, who ultimately set the rate. It?s not dissimilar to a bookie who will take on a portion of the bet/risk and look for another party to cover the remaining potential loss.

Because of this the insurance industry is a global market with each company taking on a portion of the risk, in that way local companies find themselves exposed to claims resulting from 9/11 and other disasters.

Given time (years) it will hopefully all settle down. If enough people self insure (do your own risk management there) or just shop around they will have to reduce rates or at least not increase them for a long period of time.

You can and insurance companies do blame the lawyers but they are really IMO only pushed by public sentiment and expectations, if you find yourself in a position were you are totally or almost totally disabled with no visible means of support apart from state benefits you will try and find someone to blame. Enter the "ambulance chasers"

Some people will slip in a shopping centre and break a finger nail or even wreck their back whilst bungee jumping and blame their own incompetence others look for compensation.

Dave

[Toymaker Len]

The good news is that I have joined the Victorian Woodworkers Association and will be covered by their public liability policy. Another possibility appears to be Q.U.F.T.A. on 07 46622308, I've only heard their answering machine message but they do provide insurance to market stall holders.
The other news of course is that all those multi-million dollar payouts against councils, shopping centres and public utilities for people who slipped on an orange peel or jumped off a cliff are all getting overturned on appeal. It seems that common sense will prevail after all. That will leave the insurance companies with windfall profits having doubled premiums and now seeing payouts go down to 1980s levels.
Any comment on when and what insurance shares to buy ?

[PAH1]

What I cant understand is why, even though we sign a waiver absolving the karate club of all responsibilty if we get hurt, the club is still required to have hefty insurance. Ditto goes for alot of the sky diving clubs.

The reason is that in Australia, unlike America, you can not sign away a legal right. The club is still fully liable for any negligence, the only thing that the paper means is that they have a little more bargaining power when it comes to court.